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/AKM/ - Guns, weapons and the art of war.

"War can only be abolished through war, and in order to get rid of the gun it is necessary to take up the gun." - Chairman Mao
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File: 1645975564356.jpg (532.89 KB, 2000x1000, Submarine.jpg)

 No.1328

There’s a reason as to why they’re noticeably slower compared to other forms of transport and it’s because of water and pressure
Water is a polar molecule that uses hydrogen bonding to maintain form which means its boiling point is unsurprisingly high, this means it requires a FUCK TON of energy to move a submarine at conventional velocities, not to mention water pressure increases with depth on top of gravity means a submarine engine needs to produce the force required to overcome the boiling point of water on top of overcoming the gravitational pressure it experiences while being submerged, unsurprisingly this means most submarines are slow as shit and have to be transported with heavier machinery either airborn or at surface level

 No.1329

>>1328
>Nuclear submarines will never be fast
Papa class and Alpha class say hello
>reasons
<what is super-cavitation
<what is stealth
Life isn't a videogame anon.

 No.1330

>>1329
I can understand supercavitation but stealth
Yeah I’m calling bs. Also submarine engines that take advantage of that phenomena are purely experimental partly because it’s difficult as shit to use but mostly because naval craft particularly submerged naval craft is rarely used since only countries with actually competent armies have them, and rarely will they go to war with each other

 No.1335

>>1330
>but stealth
The ENTIRE point of a submarine is to strike an enemy and not be seen by them, they don't need to be extremely fast because modern torpedoes and missiles are inevitably going to be faster; they need to be undetected.
>it’s difficult as shit to use bla bla bla
You're shifting goal posts

 No.1336

>>1335
And your ignoring reality

I stated the physics of a submarine prevent it at moving at speeds past walking speeds for the overwhelming majority of submarines. Sure stealth has its utilities but it doesn’t make it move faster in any aspect it merely prevents the submarine from being detected by most radars

 No.1339

>>1336
>your ignoring reality
This coming from an grammatical illiterate
>the physics of a submarine prevent it at moving at speeds past walking speeds
Even in WW2 the average underwater speed of a submarine had been 10 knots (18 km/hr). That is double walking speed (A walking speed of 3 to 4 miles per hour is typical for most people - 5km/h for metric).
Modern submarines using tear-drop hulls average 30 knots at cruising speed and most can go up to 35knots. The Papa class and Alpha class both shot up to 40+ knots and they never attempted to go faster despite the potential ability to, for perspective that's as fast as a car on a highway going roughly 60mph.
>stealth has its utilities but it doesn’t make it move faster in any aspect it merely prevents the submarine from being detected by most radars
1) It's SONAR
2) The point is that submarines aren't supposed to be fast or be transported quickly, they already move fast enough to cross an Ocean in a day and they don't need to, they're not passenger craft, they're military machines tracking and hunting other ships.

 No.1341

>>1339
>nooooo my stupid underwater tubes aren’t slow they can move at half the maximum legal speed a car can move at on a highway

 No.1342

>>1328
The Soviets developed a super-cavitation torpedo in 1977 that can go 200nots 370 km/h 230mph and is basically a underwater rocket.

>The high speed is made possible by supercavitation, whereby a gas bubble surrounding the torpedo is created by outward deflection of water by its specially-shaped nose cone and the expansion of gases from its engine and the gas generator in the nose. This minimizes water contact with the torpedo, significantly reducing drag.


>The torpedo steers using four fins that skim the inner surface of the supercavitation gas bubble. To change direction, the fin(s) on the inside of the desired turn are extended, and the opposing fins are retracted.


In principle this could be scaled up for an entire submarine

 No.1343

File: 1646001396532.png (95.98 KB, 987x640, tl;dr words.png)

>>1341
> half the maximum legal speed a car
The legal maximum is 60-70mph… a speed that submarines can reach, illiterate.

 No.1347

>>1343
>mph
We use km/h
Fucking cocksucking fucking faggot
Also the fastest speed a submarine has reached is 88km/h which was built over 70 dumb fuck years ago

 No.1348

>>1342
Yeah I’ve seen tests for that
The problem with that torpedo is one
The phenomena that enables it to travel at such speeds wears off fast as in the actual range for that type of torpedo is only a few kilometres type of fast
Second
The amount of friction generated by such a designed submarine along with the previous problem established prior would have the machine sent wildly off course
That’s not to say these problems aren’t impossible to overcome it’s just that at current rates it’ll take decades and it’s more likely most countries with submarines will just focus on transporting those vassales faster by aircraft since it’s generally faster and easier in contemporary times

 No.1349

>>1328
What >>1329 said. You talk about nuclear submarines like they're based on WW2 era conventional hulls that slow down underwater due to their hull design being optimized for the upper hull being above the water whereas the modern teardrop shape is optimized for high speeds entirely under the water without accounting for air friction, and yes to a submarine air has more drag than water does as weird as it sounds.
>>1330
>>1335
Stealth is not nearly as much as a factor as you think it is, its mostly propigated by the US because that's literally the only thing their subs did better than their Soviet counterparts… until the Soviets built the Akula and Victor IIIs which had rafter machinery basically making US subs redundant. Anyways, it's mostly useless because stealth only matters when your enemy is using passive sonar, AKA hiding and masking your sound signature, and the assumption is always to make it masked by masking it with environmental sounds however it can only ever get so quiet. The Soviets once again figured out the answer and masked it by simply changing the resonance and harmonics of their subs' engines on the fly, so if they're detected American subs check their database of Soviet sub sounds and realize it's actually a local trawler. Yes that thing from Red October sounding like a whale is a real thing and wasn't some experimental device but really just the engineer of any given sub hitting the engine slightly to change its pitch. As to why it only matters with passive sonar, that's cause you physically cannot hide from active sonar. Passive sonar is when you hear a ship's propellers whereas active is the pinging and works kinda like underwater radar. Anyways, you cannot hide from it since it WILL bounce off your hull since it physically exists. You can dampen it with rubber padding, you can misdirect it with thermal layers, or even try hiding on the bottom of the ocean but in general once your enemy turns on the pings, it's a game of cat and mouse.

And that's why stealth is trumped by speed. See speed is fucking life, since according to soviet simulations in the 1980s, all sub combat falls into 2 catagories: launching an attack from out of range or the game of cat and mouse. So positioning in both is key, both to get into an attack position and to dodge sweeps and attacks. Now you might say well speed doesn't mean you can dodge torpedoes but yes it fucking does. The Papa and Alfa class scared NATO so much because they could literally outrun and go deeper than any of their deeprunning torpedoes and in the UK at least caused a crash programme to develop the Tigerfish torpedo. And even if a torpedo catches up to you, a weird quirck of how water physics work is that the faster you go, the better you turn since you get more water moving over the control surfaces, meaning more drag meaning your drift better, so you want to go fast in order to turn fast to get under or over a torpedo since that's how submarine tactics work when dodging torpedoes(Launch a decoy, torp goes for decoy does a 90 degree turn to come back around and catch you but you've move above its search circle in a 3D plane). Also check >>1223 as to why they don't do supercavitating submarines, it's not because the reactors can't handle it(The Soviets literally design liquid metal reactors to work on deep running subs because of the reason OP stated), but because of the human factor. The Papa and Alfa only went 47 and 45 knots respectively because their crews were too afraid to go any faster lest they DO actually supercavitate which is a very very slippery slope since once you start supercavitating it's hard to not go even faster and they didn't want to be fucking squished since that did almost happen on the Papa class's speed trial.

 No.1350

>>1347
>Muh km/h
I literally used that earlier you illiterate single-minded, moron. And Knots are used by all navies.
>Fucking cocksucking fucking faggot
Yeah, we know you are, and?
>the fastest speed a submarine has reached is 88km/h
And you cretin? You're literally proving the point.
>was built over 70
Again, you're making yourself look stupider, technology has advanced since then, making it EASIER for engineers to make submarines EXCEEDING that speed, you cretin.

 No.1351

>>1348
>not to say these problems aren’t impossible to overcome it’s just that at current rates it’ll take decades
Because nobody is looking to do that, since it has no fucking advantage for submarines at the moment, a torpedo and missile are going to be faster, there is no point to making a submarine go blistering fast any more than already exists.

 No.1352

>>1349
>Stealth is not nearly as much as a factor as you think it is
Yes it is, the Soviet submarines after the November class had comparable quietness to American ones through the decades. Those that detect the enemy first and remain undetected have the first-strike advantage. It' proven given that the Kilo class "black hole" are a major risk to the American navy including other submarines, and numerous tests using comparable DE boats have proven the viability of DE boats ambushing noisier, bigger targets like nuke boats.
>stealth only matters when your enemy is using passive sonar
Which is most of the time during military sub patrols, you don't reveal your position unless necessary, even in Cat/Mouse games. Obviously speed is also important but neither can be neglected anon.
>

 No.1356

>>1352
No it's not, yes passive sonar is what is used 99% of the time but it's an incredibly complicated system that involves matching sound signatures and profiles with limited range, thermal variation, sound quality and and the screws of the ships with the sonar. The loudest Soviet sub was around 150 db, the loudest US sub was around 115 db. A humpback whale is 80 db. The Papa class was 125 db, Alfa 120, Oscar 115, Los Angeles 115, Viktor III 110, Akula 105 db. And yes you're right after the November Soviet subs did get a lot quieter but was never the main priority since positioning was the key above all else. They didn't want to get close to NATO battlegroups, they wanted to speed into range of a force, launch their payloads and get out. Even Soviet SSNs were designed specifically out position NATO SSNs, that meant running deeper, faster and a heavier payload. Stealth with passive sonar only matters if you're trying to sneak up and listen in on someone, but to the Soviets they didn't want to do that. NATO did, because they wanted to tail and follow Soviet subs. And like I said, the Soviets just flipped the table and outranshumanistATO weapons, they could approach full speed at an enemy and there wasn't jack shit they could do to them, they were essentially untouchable. In fact Soviet subs buzzed US subs all the time, often coming close to them, racing ahead, waiting for the US sub to catch up, then racing off again taking them on a wild goose chase. And you have completely avoided active sonar, it's not like radar where its use is coveted, is an enemy wants to protect something you bet your ass they're probably blasting active the whole time. US carrier groups ALWAYS have active on, which again is why the Soviets prefer outranging and outpositioning. And if they wanted to be stealthy, Soviet subs had something called a creep motor which was a little deployable electric screw that floated 50m above the main sub that propelled it at 2 knots and had a noise rating of 20 db. That's what they used when they wanted to be stealthy, diesel boats like the Whiskey and Kilo can't use it as they don't have the energy output for it, but a nuclear sub can.

 No.1359

>>1356
>diesel boats like the Whiskey and Kilo can't use it as they don't have the energy output for it
because that's essentially the default of their electric motors.
You make an interesting post but you aren't really arguing against me, you don't have to begin every post as "No" and then proceed to post facts that I never even argued against.


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