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File: 1608528378004.jpg (101.71 KB, 480x341, nebezhin-nemov-proletarian….jpg)

 No.4251

I haven't read much but I'm confused as to why Marx and others conceived of the proletariat as the class that would overthrow capitalism. If we look at history through a materialist lense it seems to me that it's only been a third propertied class overthrows the current system of production, not the people without property. For example, it wasn't slaves that overthrew slavery, it was landlords. It wasn't serfs that overthrew feudalism, it was the bourgeoisie. Every revolution calling itself socialist that actually took state power was led by petit-bourgeois intellectuals like Lenin, Ho Chi Minh, Mao, and Fidel Castro and manned mostly not by workers, but by peasants in a semi-colonial semi-feudal relationship to the means of production. Most proletarian movements in advanced capitalist societies have been reformist and class collaborationist. How, after all of this evidence, can we say that the proletariat is the revolutionary class? How can you say the workers have nothing to lose but their chains when they need capitalism to keep going so they can have running water, electricity, and the spectacle to keep them comfortable?
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 No.4252

The working class is unlike any other social grouping in the non-capitalist section of modern society. However penurious it is, however dominated it is, however atomized it is, it is the goose that lays the golden egg. It is the source of profits, because unless workers show up to do their work every day and create profits for their employers, that principle of profit maximization cannot be carried out. It remains a dead letter.Workers, therefore, have an opportunity, if they can take advantage of it: they hold the lever to the stream of profits that keeps the system going. Capitalists have the authority over them, but unless they agree to do what their employers say, the employers are left simply holding the bag — no profits for them.Workers, therefore, are important for a strategic reason, which is that they are the agent, and the only agent, that has a structural place within the society that can bring the power centers to their knees.
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 No.4253

>>4252
>they are the agent, and the only agent, that has a structural place within the society that can bring the power centers to their knees.
All of this might be true but why would workers ever do this if they feel their lives are comfortable enough and all political possibilities have been essentially stamped out and turned into a polarizing spectacle? For every strike there's strikebreakers, for every socialist or social democratic government there's the option for the bourgeois to store their money in tax havens or move their capital to another less developed and less class conscious country. How could workers (especially in the US) ever even meet each other and compare notes when they live so far away from each other thanks to suburbanization? How could workers ever carry that opportunity out when every force in both the structure and the superstructure actively prevents them not just from realizing they have that opportunity in the first place, but from ever carrying it out because of the relative strength of capital?
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 No.4255

>>4252
>However penurious it is, however dominated it is, however atomized it is, it is the goose that lays the golden egg
What evidence do you have for this? You think they would've laid the golden egg by now, but they haven't, not after two world wars and the prospect of climate catastrophe breathing down humanity's neck? They've completely failed to organize internationally the way capitalists have up to this point. What reason (outside of simple faith) would you have to think this way?
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 No.4256

>>4252
Oh and I forgot to mention, the proletariat has no way to grow its own food or make its own medicine when infrastructure collapses, and when they do they cease to be proletariat. How can someone who is entirely dependent on these supply chains be a revolutionary?
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 No.4257

>>4253
Good question.
>why would workers ever do this if they feel their lives are comfortable enough
This is a true suspicion, nothing about communism is guaranteed, it is the result of struggle that must be consciously waged, which is why you need leaders, and like you said these are usually from rather fortunate backgrounds (idk probably because one needs a decent education to become smart and charismatic enough to be a Lenin). However via materialism and analysis we can see Capitalism cannot help itself from pushing the workers to their limits. They seek profits at all costs and this is in contradiction with workers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tendency_of_the_rate_of_profit_to_fall

>How could workers meet eachother

We have the internet now. We just need to use it ruthlessly as a tool in our organisation, however current leftist groups are fucking stupid in general.

>The force is against them

Lenin was exiled, had his work censored, etc. The struggle he committed was going up against a lot more force than us, and he succeeded. However the real issue is the pervasiveness of capitalist ideology these days. However this illusion is falling, the new generation are quite radical all things considered and socialism is no longer a dirty word associated with Stalin. Capital is strong but the workers are the ones who produce value, like the other guy said they have all the power in that sense. They just need to be class conscious.

>>4255
By golden egg he just means labour. They work to create value, this value is all that matters in the world, what defines Man, the golden egg.

>>4256
>the proles can't grow food
Who works the rice fields? Who drives the trucks? Who invents medicine? Proles. Supply chains are just forms of organization, socialism is known for the whole 'planned economy' so this would be executed even better under socialism with good enough planning.
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 No.4258

>>4257
>Supply chains are just forms of organization
They aren't just forms of organization, the bouj can decide to shut those things off if you become rowdy. The capitalism that Lenin was facing is entirely different than the complete global system we have now. There are no real international labor organizations that hold any sway, proles are caught in epiphenomenal struggles detached from class. People don't experience class subjectively as the force determining their lives, they experience ethnicity, nationality, gender, sex orientation, sectarian identity either just as much as they experience being a prole or those factors weigh MORE heavily on their subjectivity than their prole experience.
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 No.4259

>>4258
I mean the 'state' can just shoot us if we get too rowdy. You're less likely to be shot now than any time in previous history. Moving goods can be recreated after the revolution though. Also this plays into what I mentioned earlier about the struggle, the proles cannot become truly comfy because the capitalist keeps trying to take new ground.

>The capitalism that Lenin was facing is entirely different than the complete global system we have now. There are no real international labor organizations…

I agree, the situation is very dire. But it was dire before and there is always hope. The fall of the USSR was a blow. We are just now recovering from that, and class consciousness among the new generation is rising thanks to social media (no thanks to any trot party newspapers lul).

> those factors weigh MORE heavily on their subjectivity than their prole experience

For some yes but this can easily be changed. When you become homeless during a pandemic you haven't got many people to blame but the government and landlords really, this is where us communists come in. It is our job to introduce these ideas to people who don't have the time or education to learn about them. But yeah this is a big problem, as you can see the ideology is so pervasive in our world. Phones have forced capitalist ideology into every waking moments of our lives. This creates a new set of problems that need to be analysed and fought by a new generation of communists.
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 No.4260

>>4258
Also let's say they do shut down the 'supply chain'. How do they do this? It only means that workers stop working, so again they are the ones with the actual power. Of course they can be influenced by the booj, but they can also be influenced by communists too. It doesn't change the fact that proles are the ones who hold the power
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 No.4261

>>4260
>How do they do this?
The same way they've been doing it to the few proletarian holdouts like Cuba or DPRK, sanctions sanctions siege warfare. If proles really hold the power then they would use their power, they don't, because it's not really in their interests to do so, at least for the time being, and even if the great crunch comes for them due to falling rate of profit, what's stopping them from just picking and choosing which Capitalist warlord to fight over the remaining scraps with? You have a subjective situation now where people believe that (1) they cannot influence politics beyond the cultural and epiphenomenal level, and (2) the problems that are strucutral are by definition apolitical, they see capitalism as natural as the weather. We've had two hundred years of communist agitation and attempts to break people out this mindset but it hasn't worked then, so why would it work now?
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 No.4262

>>4261
Okay so you're talking about the supply chain of a country being shut off? Yes this is a problem which is (one of the reasons) why the USSR was succesful in some ways: it was really fucking big. DPRK can get by by buddying up with China but it is difficult. It's just another tool used to repress proles and must be fought, at this point though we kinda need all the countries to go somewhat communist. Or a collapse of the US empire in some way to stop this sanction shit from holding more revolutionary countries back.

> what's stopping them from just picking and choosing which Capitalist warlord to fight over the remaining scraps with?

Committed communists. Community, etc. To be honest, not much! Nothing is guaranteed, it is a struggle until the end. But we have nothing to lose but our chains in this sense.
>they cannot influence politics beyond the cultural and epiphenomenal level
I would say they are seeing the light and getting disillusioned with liberal bourgeois politics. Which is good for us! The hope of infinite growth of the 80s is gone. We are in a depressive slump at the moment, the ruling ideology is somewhat shaken.
>they see capitalism as natural as the weather
Very true but this is failing. May I recommend Capitalist Realism by Mark Fisher. This analysis of our neoliberal ideology has reached thousands and made tens of thousands think about how it is easier to imagine an end of the world than it is to imagine an end of capitalism. We are in a difficult situation but we are seeing some movement.
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 No.4263

>>4262
>We are in a difficult situation but we are seeing some movement.
But the reactionary camp of workers, lumpen, PB, and bouj is much bigger, much stronger, has money behind it, and can and will likely wipe whatever remnants of communist, social democratic, and socialist movements out from the face of the earth. How are you supposed to face this down without some kind of religious devotion that's nearly impossible to have in the modern age?
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 No.4264

File: 1608528378834.png (747.19 KB, 1241x1893, 104475069_2975656305843733….png)

>>4263
Yeah I agree, shit sucks. The problem is all idiots can be exposed for what they are. The whole 'anti SJW' thing looked good at the time, but it was swiftly revealed how hollow and uneducated all their arguments actually are. While I wouldn't call it religious, because it is all rooted in science and analysis of the world and history, I see what you mean. Lenin was most certainly 'religiously' devoted to the cause. Him and countless others relinquished their lives to. working towards the cause, that's what motivates me. Communism is the mastery of the world by man, we destroy the nature that says some can't eat, or that someone deserves to live in a mansion. It is not easy to look at the world materially, it takes ruthless study and self criticism, this requires will power, some may say this religious devotion is nearly impossible but if there is one thing that has been consistent throughout history is the power of the human will to overcome.

This image seems like a LARP but you get the message. We can know that this is the 'right' path. We can know this is the only way forward, to resolve the contradictions of capitalism, but it takes conscious effort to actually act on this and motivate ourselves. Probably my most favorite quote is this by Gramsci:
>Pessimist by intellect, optimist by will
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 No.4265

>>4256
Is this retard class? The proletariat will simply get rid of the capilist as the intermediary

workers make everything that flows through the supply chains; "non productive" workers also make the supply chains go; only the workers, who make everything our society consumes, in the current situation, work hard and get little in return

why would they let infrastructure collapse?
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 No.4266

>>4253
Slow and dedicated work of a vanguard party on the field.
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 No.4267

>>4255
the golden egg is that workers create riches, yet is the capitalists who enjoy the produced riches, not the workers themselves
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 No.4268

>>4265
Chill out bro everything is in good faith here
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 No.4271

>>4266
again, ML parties have been doing this in the first world for over a hundred years, don't you think we would've seen returns on investment by now if it were even possible?
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 No.4272

in both examples provided, classes were sediment and predetermined. this allows for middle classes that can flourish and help the workers because they had a common enemy. In capitalism, however, the middle classes are dissolving into either the proletarian or the bourgeoisie. This class organization means that the proletarian will become the ONLY class with revolutionary potential because, eventually, they will be the only non possessing class. for now though, there is some weak solidarity with some petit bourgeoisie so we should take advantage of that as much as we can at least. hope this helped comrade ! :)
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 No.4273

>>4272
>they will be the only non possessing class
a non possessing class has never been able to overthrow a class system. Again, who overthrew slavery? It wasn't the slaves. Assuming a non possessing class will overthrow our current class system is a break from all historical trends.
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 No.4274

well i am not sure how things will play out, but my point was that the proletarian may have to break that cycle out of necessity. however i dont think we should ignore our petite comrades that, with out the influence of the proletariat, would surley not revolt
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 No.4275

>>4274
>but my point was that the proletarian may have to break that cycle out of necessity
just because something is necessary doesn't meant it will happen, remember Marx is not a determinist, he noted that not just proletarian revolution is possible, but that the "common ruin of the contending classes" is just as much a possibility, and if the climate alarmists are correct, this is the where we already are and basically the course change would come too late to matter.
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 No.4286

>>4251
The capitalist mode of production is increasingly powerless. In the pursuit of profit, it is stuck in maintaining the infrastructure of society. Infrastructure maintenance is an unprofitable or low-profitable business. But without infrastructure, society cannot function. Only the proletariat, who do not work for profit, can lead the whole society from the inevitable collapse caused by capitalism.

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