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 No.20139

The only time difficulty is acceptable in games is if the games mechanics are complex enough to justify that level of skill
In real life simply making a game harder doesn’t make a game fun it makes it tedious and often confusing because the games mechanics are so heavily restricted in nature there’s really only one way to succeed and if the player can’t immediately recognize that path there gonna die a lot, where does this happen? Celeste because most levels are linear and unless you have a well refined understanding of the game as a whole your only ever gonna use one specific set of moves in a specific sequence to pass every level, another is dark souls 1-3 because the trilogy is notorious for relying on attack patterns over player based ai responses during fights making every fight a very boring breeze if you can bait the bot well enough, a final set of examples are fallout 2, new Vegas and fallout 3 where RNG is everywhere and most fights with the “hard” enemies often are just overglorified bullet sponges dealing unreasonable amounts of damage with simplistic and easy to understand attack patterns that serve as nothing more than jump scares to the player because killing them is almost never balanced in a way where skill matters as much as stats.

So what are some examples of difficulty done right well you don’t have to look that far
Botw, terraria and diablo 2 lord of destruction all have enough complexity and non linearity as to how the player can approach any of the problems seen in game that the player whenever they fail to achieve their target can always see that they always had multiple ways to succeed and have the option to try again doing something different or learning a new in game mechanic they can exploit to progress, like how link can use stun frames to prevent a lynel from attacking, or how flasks in diablo can be used as a form of crowd control against ranged enemies so the player can focus on bigger threats, or how terraria has thousands of items all with varied traits and perks that the player can seriously kill off major bosses with pre hard mode equipment with enough time and understanding of how the game works and how they can manipulate it.

 No.20140

git gud

 No.20141

>>20139
>most fights with the “hard” enemies often are just overglorified bullet sponges dealing unreasonable amounts of damage
This is a problem with action RPGs (especially if they're open world), but they tend to have lackluster combat anyway. Higher difficulties rarely require the player to think critically and fights are about attrition more than effective tactics. It's pretty difficult to balance encounters when players can go anywhere and do anything; where the player can't win right away, they can simply grind levels and gear to stomp the enemies later or spam healing items endlessly to outlast the damage. The Disgaea series suffers from that as well but grinding levels is sorta the whole gimmick, and any challenge comes from geo panel puzzles which are sadly pretty lacking overall.

On the other hand, Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age Origins both had fantastic higher difficulties, but they're rare exceptions.

 No.20142

Fuck you for reminding me that I lack the skill to play through terraria on master mode.

 No.20144

File: 1657736607356.jpg (244.39 KB, 704x469, Rockman X.jpg)

Fallout games are indeed fucking trash in terms of game design and their aim of testing the player's skill, but I wouldn't really put Terraria up there as an example of difficulty done well. Terraria really needs some kind of limited extra lives system to bridge the gap between softcore mode (infinite free retries) and hardcore mode (death is permanent). The problem with the softcore approach is that there is no game over condition and the game can throw as much unfair bullshit at you as it likes (including attacks that kill you in one or two hits) and it's fine that these attacks have very little telegraphing for the player to learn the first time around, because they're just going to retry immediately anyway. The problem with hardcore mode is that it's a 10+ hour-long game.

In my mind some great examples of difficulty are games with up-front adaptive difficulty systems like Hellsinker that the player can adjust as they get better or games with a lot of collectible power-ups like Mega Man X that the player can choose to avoid.

 No.20145

>>20141
>This is a problem with action RPGs
"Modern Tales games typically have fantastic higher difficulty modes that really test the player's skill with the battle system.

 No.20148

why do you keep making these threads

the reason games are like this is because capitalism. difficulty done right is when microtransactions frustrate you into taking out your wallet.

 No.20149

>>20148
>why do you keep making these threads
Presumably because OP wants to have engaging discussions about video games. If you just want to talk about capitalism we already have a board for that.

 No.20150

>>20144
>between softcore mode (infinite free retries) and hardcore mode (death is permanent)
I mean you can play in casual mode,where all your items get dropped on death,but for having done it with my friend in calamity death mode,it's more tedious than actually hard,but it forces you to think about whether you should flee or keep going,as it's very punishing to suicide play with magic mirrors to get them back.

 No.20151

>>20150 (me)
also terraria hard mode is not building boss arenas.

 No.20152

>>20150
Mediumcore is just tediumcore, especially when playing with friends. Nothing better than dying during a goblin or pirate invasion 100m from your spawn point and being completely helpless to run over and collect it.

 No.20153

>>20152
oh yeah,the eclipse,blood moon and invasion are litterally "I'm coming back in five minutes" if all of you die.
until one of you gets bored, jump on a chest to grab a backup and beat them back,so everybody does the same until you reclaim the house,then a mini boss spawn,ignore walls,and insta gibs everyone.

 No.20154

>>20153
Eclipses and night events can be waited out. Goblin and pirate invasions are a fucking nightmare because they won't end until you kill enough enemies.

 No.20160

>>20149

someone keeps making essentially the same thread 10+ times just to gripe about things they don't like. this board was practically dead and now its artificially full of spam. we shouldn't even have a games board there are not enough posters for it to be separate from hobby, which we also don't need. video games are trash and gamers should be gulagged.

i browse from overboard and treat all boards as /leftypol/ and wont be changing or talking about things other than capitalism on a leftist website. "difficulty done right" comes from owning the means of production.

 No.20161

>>20160
did you ever consider getting laid?

 No.20162

>>20160
Sounds like the cunt whining about shit they dislike is you you fucking salty faggot 💀💀💀

 No.20164

>>20160
>we shouldn't even have a games board
Finally your true feelings are known. You can kindly fuck off if you hate this board so much.

 No.20165

>>20163
>finally
every one of these threads are the same

games are artificially difficult because it costs less to make and there is a higher profit margin. games have lots of RNG for the same reason. people reuse the same shitty engines for the same reason. games are unfun and frustrating to funnel you into DLC and microtransactions for the same reason. mobile games like candy crush are 99% of the market and are the real gamers now and we are never going back. there is no point in discussing how to design better games. developers aren't going to change their minds if you make a convincing argument. the point of game development is not to make good games but to create an addiction and take your money for the least amount of work possible.

if you don't like being reminded that video games are shit because of capitalism go post on 4chan

 No.20166

File: 1657753028808.png (117.09 KB, 497x510, 0 Friends.png)

>>20160
>only uses /leftypol/
>chooses to use the overboard
>whines about every other board on there

 No.20167

>>20166
all boards are /leftypol/ because this is leftypol.org. everything that can be should be related back to leftist politics and i will continue to post in all your shitty threads to remind you of that. the point of commodities is not "fun" it is profit and this is not some kind of problem or a mistake that you can resolve. its not an issue with specific games or genres of games or majority tastes or normies or the implementation of certain mechanics its an issue with the mode of production.(Stop shitting up alt)

 No.20189

I can beat two stages on Silver Surfer (NEStopia emulator on PC, admittedly) and I have completed Aria on Crypt of the Necrodancer and am trying to work towards Coda.

Difficulty for the sake of difficulty is not fun all on its own. I don't approach these games the way that I do other games. They're puzzles. They're a skill development. Try, die, smile a little, start again. Try, die, smile a little, start again. Try…Hey, I'm doing well. I'm doing real well! Die. Sigh, then nod, straighten, start again.

It's a good way to practice peace of mind. I approach this more like how I approach Gun Disassembly. Ah, a mistake. Let's go again. Such is life.

 No.20190

File: 1657860839947.jpg (360.14 KB, 850x1203, Dimahoo flyer.jpg)

Difficulty for the sake of difficulty can be one of the most satisfying experiences in video games, provided the challenge seems fair.

 No.20191

>>20190
And even then, sometimes overcoming blatantly unfair challenge is part of the appeal.

 No.20233

I'm gonna get shit for this but i think the later fromsoft games bosses and enemy design got ruined
In DS1 there were quite a few bosses where the fun was figuring out exactly how to beat them and how many ways you can beat them
I think they were a lot better when they were treated more like puzzles than
>memorizing attack patterns while you face fuck it
>wait for their AOE
>then repeat

 No.20264

>>20191
Pain is pleasure, pleasure is pain. Anyone how denies this has not played enough video games.
Also, difficult != frustrating. You're just (provably!) playing poorly designed games. Yes, this also applies to the souls games, which are more bad than hard.

 No.20276

File: 1658093038541.jpg (58.19 KB, 550x774, ninja-gaiden.jpg)

>>20190
Hell yes. It has to be done right, though. Like, you have to ultimately be able to beat a super-hard boss by pulling off awesome shit, not just by finding a pattern to cheese it. The fight has to keep you on the edge of your seat the whole time, so you're never stuck just waiting for the boss's life bar to whittle down. High-difficulty is good when it rewards skill and focus, not pattern recognition and patience.

 No.20286

Op mentions terraria and diablo, and I think the problem is that these days, difficulty is seen as something intrinsic to a game's worth or longevity. There are ways to be engaging without being difficult. Some games aren't "hard" but give the player the ability to get creative or ingenuous for a problem that could be solved easily. Chaining up combos in an obscure beat-em-up, building custom villages and towns in sandboxes, even the "Arseplomancer" meme in DnD are ways to play games without reducing games to a task to check off the list.

What gamedevs forget is that difficult games are good when they encourage or enable this, or even force people to be ingenious to get around seemingly insurmountable problems. It's not difficulty people want, it's the feeling of exercising freedom. There might be games that do that without being hard at all.

 No.20290

>>20286
>It's not difficulty people want, it's the feeling of exercising freedom.
I feel quite the opposite to this. While I certainly find enjoyment in making insane train networks in OpenTTD, the greatest fulfillment I get from games is a tightly constrained challenge. Whether that comes from the developers' exercising proper constraint on the player or from my own self-imposed rules. Too much freedom is antithetical to a fulfilling challenge.

 No.20297

>>20290
I guess I should have been more clear that I don't think sandboxes are the be all and end all of games. But even in that tightly controlled environment you're expressing yourself in some form. The game developer poses the challenge, you answer it through ingenuity. Even if you had no realistic alternative, I think that's still a demonstration of freedom since it's you manifesting your will onto the game. Feeling like "you did it. *YOU* won." It's something more like "eudaimonia", if that makes sense

 No.20315

>>20290
You are correct. This desire for freedom is anathema to the foundation of the medium. It is achieving the maximal in a minimum, which defines "game".
I am not saying the desire for freedom is bad, but that other mediums are better suited for it (e.g. tabletop). This is also why every game that approaches to actual freedom, comes closer and closer to become to a pure simulator with the computer as the GM.

>>20297
All mysteries which lead theory to mysticism
find their rational solution in human practice
and in the comprehension of this practice.

 No.20326

>>20315
>>20290
How do you distinguish an enjoyable challenge from a tedious bulletsponge or bullshit task then?

 No.20328

>>20326
On the bullet sponge point, it's very important that enemies either die quickly or have a variety of attacks to keep the player interested while attacking them. This is something that good scrolling shooters do well, while so-called "Euroshmups" are infamously bad at. Incompetent developers just think difficulty comes from numbers. Good developers establish player-vs-enemy difficulty through enemy placement, level design, and attack variety.

 No.20329

Every durable/bullet spongy opponent should have a weak point that allows one to take them down faster and more reliably by either crippling them or dealing several times more damage than a non-weak spot attack. That is part of the universal secret for good action game design.

 No.20330

>>20328
So I'm guessing you're saying that the purpose of the difficulty is to hold the player's interest?

 No.20575

>>20328
Again, nail on the head.

>>20330
The purpose is to provide a challenge based on something other than patience. (And no, that's not an exact definition that you can easily jab at, roast pigeon.)

 No.20582

>>20575
Maybe I'm not a gamer after all

 No.20586

File: 1658809900589.gif (498.61 KB, 484x339, geist.gif)

>>20139
>So what are some examples of difficulty done right well you don’t have to look that far
>Botw, terraria and diablo 2 lord of destruction
Wtf is this take? All the games you list rely on either heavy grinding or just casual engagement (botw). And the "difficulty" you mention isn't really difficulty, it is complexity. Most of the games you say are too difficult require the player to understand the systems of said game. Fallout 2, rng has very little to do with its difficulty (besides getting to the enclave base and getting surrounded by wolves). Its all about knowing how to build a character that can handle the early game which makes getting good weapons hard, but if you understand how the systems work, you can circumvent this. Hell once you get strong enough, random encounters either become optional or most trash mobs run the fuck away from you!
I feel the better argument here is the idea of artificial difficulty rather than just difficulty. That is used mainly to pad out a game for time or just cover up bad/rushed game design. Like how Cyberpunk/theWitcher scales enemies to one shot kill you, leaving no room for challenge and makes it so that if you do succeed in overcoming those foes you get no bonus exp and the loot is locked behind a level cap. That, I see is artificial difficulty for the sake of needless difficulty and also just shit game design. No matter how well you know the game's system, you get no reward for overcoming the challenge.
The only only other category of game that I would characterize as "difficult" are competitive fighting games like Street Fighter or Tekken which truly require skill and insane mental fortitude to master. You can't pause in a ranked match and input timing is key coupled with anticipating your opponent, knowing their character, knowing your character, knowing your moveset, hitboxes and all, keeping an eye on all the gauges, the time limit, the frames. That's difficulty right there. You can pause fallout 2, read the whole fucking manual twice, go for a jog, watch a video on it on yt, come back and nothing would have changed except the knowledge you gained. Can't do that in the middle of a match in SF3.
Also bullet hells and Contra-likes, those are are difficult games to for their reliance on input skill.

 No.21545

Dark souls 2 is a fucking perfect example of how not to do difficulty

Instead of making the RPGs difficulty encourage you to try new tactics in real life nearly all new players will just pick knight as their first class because nearly every mob can flat out one tap you if you use everything else mix that in with the blatantly shitty arena design where the idea of getting one shorted by fall damage randomly in the middle of a fight is common and the fact that you can only save with bonfires forcing you to walk through tedious minutes of bs just to arrive where you started takes the fun out of the game.

Also nearly all the items you pick up that aren’t armour or weapons are fucking useless

 No.21546

>>21545
I played as the naked class and never really had any problems getting oneshot. And death drops make levels way more fun since it makes you think about where you are rolling and can make exciting gank fights. Though jumping does suck in Dark Souls.

 No.21549

>>21546
Yeah for someone masochistic enough to put up with the amount of shit you go through in ds2 that might not be a problem but for me the idea of lowering down to half my fucking health for dying and spending several minutes mindlessly parrying and cheesing through fights with exploits was what made me feel a need to uninstall and play ds1 again because it didn’t feel like the game was making things artificially harder for me

That’s not to say ds1 doesn’t have bullshit but it was far less noticeable for me and deaths felt fair

 No.21604

easy mode chads where you at?

>aim assistance on

>difficulty setting : baby
>second pc with full guide playthrough on

 No.21682

And that's why I play boomer shooters where higher difficulty means more enemies and more aggressive AI or faster attacks
Never played any souls games and will not play any souls games probably, they just are not for me
There is also the other end of games with no difficulty levels at all and it's great, you won't know what to expect
>>20160
Fuck off then and let the rest of us post, unfun uyghur
>>21604
There is also no shame in lowering the difficulty level, but that auto aim is gonna aim where you don't want it to aim

 No.21684

>>21604
>>21682
>There is also no shame in lowering the difficulty level, but that auto aim is gonna aim where you don't want it to aim
Agree. Just get more bullets, spray, and pray.

 No.21694

>>21682
>but that auto aim is gonna aim where you don't want it to aim
For real, auto aim sucks ass. You are better off keeping it off.

 No.21707

>>21604
I unironically disliked Doom Eternal because of it's difficulty,I just wanted to boom boom like in 2016,not micromanaged my ammo and armor.

 No.21709

>>21707

skill issue


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