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 No.21820

An actual game with good deep combat with similar mechanics is kingdom come deliverance as you can’t cheese fights through button mashing the dodge roll key and cheese fights with magical bs and bows

Not just that but kc1, kc2 and mordhau all use a realistic approach to swinging weapons which provide a level of complexity towards how you approach people to the point where standing still and focusing on watching your enemy and strategizing with the knowledge given is better than constantly moving and praying your opponent gets stuck backed into a wall or locked into stun frames like what from software pushed. Sekiro to a general extent did address this which is why it’s my favourite from software title but all the souls fanboys completely over bloat how hard their games actually are

 No.21821

Thoughts on Exanima?

 No.21824

>>21820
If you ignore the circlejerk about souls games being specially difficult, they are good games.

 No.21825

>>21824
Yeah, but people are trying to shoehorn its combat logics into other games where it would not be appropriate like Skyrim. Not to mention that there were much better combat systems in other hack-and-slash games that did not rely on dodgeroll abuse already, like Dark Messiah of Might & Magic and Arx Fatalis.

 No.21826

>>21825
Dodge steps >>> dodge rolls

 No.21827

File: 1662149442566-1.jpg (114.82 KB, 1163x970, m2tdffp5sbq21.jpg)

>>21820
Damn you reminded me how much I love Sekiro. I hope that new team ninja game is like Sekiro.

 No.21828

>>21826
Unironically this. In my opinion, a combination of dashing, crouching, sidestepping and leaning moves being available would make for much more diverse and realistic dodging mechanics than just overdone dramatic dodgerolls with iFrames, especially if you are doing a first-person hack-and-slash RPG where dodgerolls would be hard to believably implement. With a game with system like that for example, if the enemy prepares for an upper swing, you would be expected to crouch and then strike the enemy's legs with your own counterattack, and the AI enemy would be expected to do the same in such a situation.

 No.21829

Second note on something I wanted to mention

I think magic is bad for fantasy RPGs in general
It’s always broken
The range advantage on most spells makes players or NPCs mechanically invincible
It requires almost no skill to use when implemented
And it frequently destroys the point of using other combat mechanics in cases where mana regens automatically
I cannot think of a single game outside of kh3 on critical mode and lotro that managed to implement magic in a way that didn’t fundamentally destroy balance

 No.21830

>>21829
Gameplay idea: What if heavy magic users are more vulnerable to magic attacks?

 No.21831

>>21829
By that logic all ranged combat is bad. I think in order for magic to not be broken you have to make mana regenerate very slowly if at all in combat, make recovery items restore mana bit by bit instead of instantly (same should be done for HP and other stats tbh) and making things like armor also offer a modicum of protection from spells by themselves while giving a penalty to magic effectiveness and cost efficiency (Oblivion did this but too weak to matter for expert magic users), thus giving pure melee fighter characters more chance at closing the distance.
>>21830
TES games kind of did it with the High Elves having more magicka but suspecible to magic damage themselves, and with the Apprentice birthsign that gives 1.5x magicka multiplier at the cost of making the character more weak to spell attacks.

 No.21832

>>21831
My argument in favour of bows is that one, you have to aim and can easily miss shots if you don’t have the skill which is also why I advocate for zero crosshairs, two they still cost ammunition in most cases meaning you’ll never just spam your way to victory and in some games drawing your bow and holding it in place to aim may cost stamina providing a penalty against camping that doesn’t feel entirely unrealistic. They ultimately are another tool that when implemented correctly can still work in a meta with

A better system would be what diablo
No the original diablo not d2 did with magic by locking mana regen at 0 and forcing the player to use whatever potions they could find ignoring the reality that until they had the skill to use mana regen this balance would become pointless.
Also make all magic attacks only useful at a closed off distance

 No.21833

>>21832
zero crosshairs doesn't matter because tryhards will just stick them on

 No.21834

>>21833
It does enough to discourage it among most players
Not to mention arrow drop will still require basic thinking

 No.21875

>>21828
>crouching
I need to start playing Mordhau again. Using crouch to dodge naked maul retards that always go for the head gave me some good laughs.

 No.21883

>>21829
When it's 1v1 where magic is supposed to go toe to toe with melee, it either ends up wildly imbalanced or you lose a lot of what both could bring to the table. I think magic works best in games where you have a party with roles to fulfill. In D&D for example you could have a spellcaster as a damage dealer, but they excel at other tasks like crowd control, AOE, utility, and support and it's best to let other characters specialize in raw damage, at least until late game when wizards can reshape reality at will. Or in Dragon's Dogma, a mage or sorcerer is gonna get its ass kicked unless they have other characters protecting them and only focusing on offense will leave the party much worse off. Although with sorcerers you can do a full party spell sync meme build to dish out constant, massive spells.

 No.21924

>>21820
I don't think people think it's combat is deep
The appeal of darksouls for me is the many different ways you can kill bosses in it
Yeah you can strip off all your armor and dodge roll through everything
Or you can cover yourself head to toe in havel's armor and tank the bosses
You could also treat bosses like puzzles and study the environment to kill the bosses easier
At least that's what it was like in the first one
Over the years the games turned into action games where every boss played the same
Dodge roll through everything
Wait for the aoe
Then face fuck the boss
I could never finish sekiro because it felt too restrictive with it's combat

 No.21953

>>21824
Disagree. They are decent games with interesting settings. The two are often conflated.
Definitely a breath of fresh air in terms of exploration, though that particular gasp has been going for more than 10 years for me so I'm not that impressed anymore. Really makes you reflect on how shit the industry is with adopting what actually makes Souls games worth playing.

>>21829
The SMT franchise has interesting magic design. For me, magic combat works best if it is a modifier to combat progression and not a direct component.

>>21924
I agree. I wish these games would incorporate "puzzle" (by lack of a better term) design into the bosses, and then allowing the player to figure things out. Demon's Souls had the right idea, but didn't go nearly far enough.

 No.21960

File: 1662666364397.png (214.16 KB, 616x353, ClipboardImage.png)

>>21829
What if you were just a wizard who has no physical combat ability?

 No.22005

Something like Nioh blows Souls combat right out of the water, however, the simplicity of Souls combat is needed for its pvp system to work, which is pretty unique and hard to find in other games. Elden Ring kind of fucked it up with the insane Ash of War spam tho.


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