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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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File: 1655932544157.png (2.85 MB, 1200x1604, Gonzalo_Enhanced_Large.png)

 No.1027996[View All]

I can understand finding positives in the likes of Mao and even Stalin but I can't fathom defending and admiring a monster like Guzman. In my view, he is a terrorist who massacred and oppressed the working-class he claimed to represent. He was just as bad, if not worse, than Fujimori. What positives could you possibly see in him.
283 posts and 43 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.1031476

>>1031465
The only reason one would object to senseless murder is if they are paid off by the USA, makes sense

 No.1031479

insane american trash is what you are
do you fantasize about being a disney villain? ludicrous edgelord shit

 No.1031481

>>1031464
And you're trolling or an agent.

 No.1031487

>>1031476
the only reason one would frame murders in the context of class war, in Latin America, during the 1980s, against malthusian, genocidal, white supremacist, CIA backed, USAID backed, fascists as simply "senseless murders" is they are paid off by the US, or simply dull of mind.

 No.1031491

>>1031487
How many of those villagers were malthusian, genocidal, white supremacist, CIA backed, USAID backed, fascists exactly

 No.1031519

File: 1656102246873.png (1.2 MB, 1024x680, ClipboardImage.png)

POV: Marxism-Leninism-Maoism Gonzalo Thought meetup

 No.1031524

>>1031487
hello king lear,how you doing ?

 No.1031537

File: 1656102456596.mp4 (Spoiler Image, 3.67 MB, 1280x720, Chairman Gonzalo Speech.mp4)

> My Favorite Speech from Chairman Gonzalo!

 No.1031539

File: 1656102497202.png (866.86 KB, 800x566, ClipboardImage.png)


 No.1031561

>>1031491
all of the ones that watched as the commander was burned alive

 No.1031647

File: 1656103956270.jpg (92.76 KB, 1280x720, back.jpg)

Gonzaloids keep pointing at Fujimori (who came later and whom Gonzalo surrendered) while defending the glorious struggle of doing razzias against peasants, including woman and children, to keep them in line.
>>1028045
Looks like gonzaloids apart of deniying their own doings and looking like sociopaths are illiterate as well, not surprising.
>>1028241
>>1028203

 No.1031704

>>1031647
all those massacres by the state were in 1980s, under Garcia as well as Fujimori, although many did continue until recently. All of those military coups started way earlier in the 60's, with the last one by Fujimori in 1992

also, as is shown, the Peruvian military was planning this genocide from the early 1980s. many of the peruvian elites much longer.

 No.1031707

>>1031461
Jesus Christ you moron. It's a guerilla war. I'm not even a gonzaloid, but how do you expect to win your ebin asymmetrical fight for socialism if you can't stand to break your enemy's spirit? Yes it's barbaric, that's the point, it's indented to psychologically damage a superior foe's will to resist. This shit is part and parcel of every insurgency ever fought.

 No.1031755

>>1031707
>break your enemy's spirit
how does one measure this

 No.1031757

>>1031704
>Continues to mix the 80s and 90s, triying to stir water into justifiying the actions of the shining path
Gonzalo could have still fought, hell Ocallan is no longer a communist but he hasn't sold out to the turks, but he claudicated to Fujimori in 1992. In 1995 the sterilizations begin. Horrible stuff in a country were after the fallout of the fall of the USSR and the remembrance of the Shining Path left no left. Did Gonzalo ever said something about it?
>>1031707
More razzia + baby crushing defending
Truly we are among the new soviet man.
Answer yourself why Lucanamarca, and many other places and people, were simpathetic to them and what happened to sour things to that level.

 No.1031758

>>1031755
By how many baby bones end up in your shoes

 No.1031766

>>1031755
>how does one measure this
Are they still resisting you? Are their neighbours resisting you more or less after what you did? Are more of your enemies willing to surrender to you?

 No.1031790

>>1031755
It's when the protagonist in an NTR realizes the new foreign exchange student he's housing has impregnated his wife and daughters so he kills himself. So basically, what I'm saying is that Gusanoman was an incel

 No.1031800

I'm gonna assume that you created this thread in earnest and not as a shitpost…Gonzaloids are the most uncritical and captured by their own perspective while autistically pushing out any other perspectives of all the groups on the left…this combined with the fact that gonzalo has become a left meme makes it so you should never bother arguing with gonzaloids, they're either baiting you or are genuine retardos

 No.1031803

>>1031707
>break your enemy's spirit
I love materialism!!!!!!

 No.1031823

File: 1656107408991.jpg (41.02 KB, 640x554, Average Gonzaloid.jpg)

Average Gonzaloid

 No.1031824

>>1031757
>the sterilisations begin in 1995
no, they don't, planned since 1991, executed in 1992, pumped up in 1993.

In 1991, a new National Population Program was developed by Fujimori's National Population Council.[13] With the compliance of Fujimori, plans for a coup as designed in Plan Verde were prepared over a two-year period and finally executed during the 1992 Peruvian coup d'état, which ultimately established a civilian-military regime and began the institution of objectives presented in Plan Verde.[14][15][16] In 1993, a National Report on Population and Development of the Fujimori government argued that the previous program was insufficient and promoted large expansions for the program

cope harder opinion haver, you are dealing with fact gang

 No.1031869

I needed to correct the format
>Fact gang
By doing a 5 minute research I can get that you are just copypasting wikipedia.
<The victims of forced sterilizations in Peru continue to demand justice
>In Peru, during the government of Alberto Fujimori, 244,234 women and 20,693 men were irreversibly sterilized as part of national family planning policies (1996- 1999). These forced surgical procedures were denounced as violations of human rights, especially of indigenous populations in rural areas. Currently, 1,321 women continue to pursue the legal process of seeking justice against a policy that infringed their rights over two decades ago.

 No.1031928

>>1031800
>Tfw slaughtering infants doesn't "break the enemy's will" at all but instead leads more and more peasants into utterly despising you and helping the army kill you
Lol
Lmao even

 No.1032020

>>1031869
https://www.ncregister.com/news/fujimori-re-imprisonment-and-peru-s-forgotten-forced-sterilization-program

>The program began in 1993 and ended in 2000. The worst years were 1996 and 1997, when some 200,000 women were forcibly sterilized.


there are sources which say 1992, some say 1993 like this one, you originally said 1995.

 No.1032089

>>1032020
Yeah, my mistake. You hace posted a news article, so did . But all the literature I found, all of it, refers one to the period of 1996-1999. To all those who may lurk around here, why 1991, why 1996?
It is because in 1995 it was approved a law that introduced surgery as a contraceptive mode. Then, all mayhem started.

>Three months after President Fujimori took office in 1990, he announced a “birth control policy” as a way to bring equal access to con- traception for the nation’s poor. At that time, however, high inflation, a lack of public funding, a focus on the internal conflict, and legal barriers in place against sterilizations forced the government to proceed slowly despite its support for reforms in family planning programs in Peru. Fujimori’s reelection gave his regime a strong mandate for implementing its plans, and in 1995, Congress approved a modification of the National Population Law of 1985 to permit sterilization as a family planning method.

 No.1032107

>>1032089
So, would you agree then it planned before 1996, even as early as 1990 when they made the first plan Verde. I think it reasonable looking a the dates that perhaps the groundwork was laid in the early 1990s, for it to expand and reach its peak in the mid.

By my reckoning then, they would have been planning and executing when SP was still operational, regardless, it shows you who they were, that is not even to mention all of the other crimes committed by them and by Garcia’s admin.

 No.1032123

File: 1656113993213.jpg (Spoiler Image, 16.94 KB, 474x272, meeting.jpg)

>>1032107
Amazing what US trained troops can think and manage to put into agenda right?
Still does not justify the Shining Path. Reminder that Gonzalo & Cia surrendered to them

 No.1032150

>>1032123
It does, considering everything else

 No.1032159

Would say that, had he won that this probably would have been prevented?

 No.1032167

>>1032159
>>1032150
>Has no moral ground and has to go to go into Uchronias now to keep justifiying it
Hahahaha, so much for the 4th sword of marxism, guarantee of victory,etc.

 No.1032180

>>1032167
Oh did he use some spicy rhetoric in his broadcasts? Golly gosh worse than outright fascism that is

 No.1032276

>>1032180
>The problem is spicy rhetoric
<Entire thread is about the act of brutally murdering innocents exactly like the military was doing to terrify and command obedience from the peasants (exact same reasons as Shining Path)

 No.1032351

Recordatorio que solo primermundistas imbeciles y otros ultras soportan a sendero luminoso, todos los de Latam, excepto por los cultitas gonzaloides, saben que SL la cagaron en grande, y destruyeron cualquier oportunidad de revolucion socialista en Peru e incluso otras partes de Latam, todo por su estupido dogmatismo, violencia a las masas y oportunismo. Eso sin contar el hecho que andaban cargandose a otros socialistas y comunistas por no adoptar el "pensamiento gonzalo".
Asi que a cagar ultras primermundistas :^)

 No.1032430

>>1029681
Nadie responde a tus argumentos porque no justifican absolutamente nada, ni siquiera responden a las criticas principales de SL, que son de que basicamente era un culto a Gonzalo y al pensamiento Gonzalo, y que en su dogmatismo y fanatismo, en lugar de usarlo para atacar a las fuerzas del estado, lo usaron oara masacrar a poblaciones indigenas y crear un movimiento mas y mas sectario, basandose solo en lo que el lider gonzalo dijera.
Si lo de Lucanamarca, al principio, fue considerada una ofensiva contra la "reaccion" y contra el "estado", entonces desde el principio, su forma de crear ofensivas y de luchar contra el estado fue erronea.
Incluso los grupos guerrilleros que vinieron antes de ellos de latam no eran tan extremos en ese sentido, cuando realizaban algun operativo revolucionario buscaban siempre minimizar o evitar cualquier daño colateral, pues sabian que eso seria usado como propaganda contra ellos.
SL en lugar de enfocarse en crear bases mas solidas de apoyo, de luchar contra el estado y mejorar las condiciones en general de la gente, parece que hicieron todo lo contrario, destruyendo a otros comunistas y masacrando a poblaciones indigenas.
Y si vas a justificar esas masacres con el clasico "pero el estado lo hizo primero, y peor", entonces SL fue tan malo como el estado, al no ofrecer ninguna solucion al monopolio de violencia de este, mas que mas violencia contra la poblacion y un discursillo cultista en todos los sentidos.

Y no, no te contestare en ingles, angloide probablemente :^).

 No.1032461

>>1032351
>>1032430
Para bailar la bamba se necesita una poca de gracia

 No.1032537

>>1029681
>In fact, I have posted more facts than anybody else,
While conveniently forgetting or downplaying the facts that were posted in response.
>one which no anti gonzalo poster has even bothered to engage with.
We did engage with it. The thing is you talk of the rightousness of Gonzalo's cause, yet when you bring up "he was fighting le heckin CIA", this is a non-argument. There were other non-communist/ anarchist factions who fought the white army, should we throw in our lot behind them uncritically because they too fought the white army?

>I don't even no what we are still arguing about.

You're arguing that Gonzalo was a true revolutionary and should be shown sympathy. But again, outside of Lucanamarca, this guy brutalised and attacked and killed other peasant forces and indigenous people who were under their control.

>I have said several times, lucanamarca was a mistake.

Yet you deny that the shining path opressed indigenous communities.

>Okay, lets say it, you are correct on that.

Thank you, I accept your surrender.

>All of you obsessive, weird freaks who scream about this one point are correct about that point. I will make no further arguments against it, now, if you will, kindly, do me the solid of answering all these other points, which none of you have done, I ask for a 7th time

I already provided arguments as to why the shining path was shit outside of the Lucanamarca massacre here:
>>1028475
>>1028331
>>1028445

You then default about making it about making it all about Lucanamarca and saying it was a mistake, without adressing the other communities the Shining Path repressed in the links I provided.

You're a douchebag, anon.

 No.1032886

>>1028013
>Guzman has visigoth origin and literally means "goodman"

 No.1033019

>>1031537
lmfao perfect

 No.1033682

>>1028475
>APOLOGISE
Literally doesn't make a difference. Liberal respectability politics.
>Lenin and Mao created socialist republics
under entirely different circumstances.
>the difference between them and Gonzalo is that they actually took time to self crit and contributed theory
literally in the quote which is used by Gonzalo to freak out about lucanamarca, he self crits.
> and contributed theory
He did contribute to theory
>the overall betterment of their people.
He did make things better for many people, who gained protection, education and so on. Unless you are gonna say some shit like "actually he caused the reactionary state to kill people" which would be victim blaming.
>Gonzalo on the other hand only brutalised those who supported them
actually he brutalised people who didn't support them
>The PKK and the ACP may call China revisionist, but they don't go out of their way to bomb their embassies.
China isn't actively supporting the enemies of the PKK
>Except they wouldn't. Not even the USSR gets off scott free from the crime of genocide relating to the deportation of Volga Germans, Crimean Tartars and Chechneans- difference being is that they actually apologised and re-compensated them for this crime.
On this website, it does, and, they lived long enough to apologise, they did not do so at the time.


>>1028331
>An argument is a statement backed with evidence, you on the other hand are just throwing around rhetoric
no that is what you are doing, I have literally presented various pieces of evidence, about the statistics from the t a r comission report, about forced sterilisation, about massacres comitted by the state etc

you have just given opinions and posted fucking bad empanda lmao.

>oooh the people said a thing.


here is what someobody who actually went to region and studied the problem properly found

https://oxfordre.com/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780199366439.001.0001/acrefore-9780199366439-e-495

>Even after President Alejandro Toledo increased the number of commissioners to twelve from seven (adding Ames, Arias, Lay, Antúndez, Morote, and the observer Bambarén), the commissioners still reflected elite sectors of Peru least affected by the violence. All were residents of Lima, all were urban dwellers, only one spoke Quechua, only one understood it, and none self-identified as Indigenous or campesino. As Commissioner Carlos Iván Degregori later commented, “even the composition of the CVR reflected the gaps in the country” that underlay the political violence


>It is crucial to remember that survivors of the violence made decisions about what they would and would not share with the CVR. Anthropologist Kimberly Theidon observed that in many rural Ayacucho communities devastated by the violence, campesinos held local assemblies prior to the arrival of the CVR’s testimonial teams. At those assemblies, community authorities decided what local residents should say and what they should leave unsaid, lest some community members’ initial support for Shining Path militants somehow cast the community as less deserving of reparations. As Theidon notes, “There was an effort to close narrative ranks, prompted by the many secrets people keep about a lengthy fratricidal conflict and the numerous expectations a commission generates.”


>The CVR also conducted interviews with more than one thousand leaders and rank-and-file members of the Shining Path and MRTA. Commissioners decided against allowing any of these individuals to participate in the public hearings,


>Politicians from the period, including former president Alan García, gave testimonies and participated in public hearings.


>Some have also argued that the CVR was too narrow in its focus, upset that the Final Report did not highlight their communities’ experiences or investigate their claims. Others contend that the CVR should have discussed the forced sterilizations carried out by the Fujimori government’s Family Planning Program. Those sterilizations of over two hundred thousand predominantly impoverished women of Indigenous descent occurred without informed consent and sometimes against the women’s will, often with grave health consequences


>>1028445
>nor did they say that what they did was wrong, but rather "was an excess".
a semantic argument, not many people see excess as a good thing

>People such as Ho Chi Minh, Abdullah Ocalan AND EVEN FUCKING GADAFFI actually made efforts to recompensate and denounce these excesses of revolutionary violence.

from what position

>So how is killing peasants and children via machette attacks who have no ties to government or the state a revolutionary act?

you claim to have engaged in all these posts.

I can see 2 general points that you have made, point 1) made over and over again, and to be frank, totally boring, is that they did violence, that was bad, and in your opinion, wasn't justified, even given the situation, state of governance and history and context of Peru, they did very bad violence, and under no circumstances can these incidents be considered the sad result of a necessary war, rather they are just the wanton violence of evil and bad people. On this point, we have talked to death. I feel as if you have been given many different pieces of evidence describe the situaiton which meant it fact, it was a necessary war, and a necessarily brutal war, and you haven't answered them at all.

2) The point made here: "as I explained, they opressed indigenous communities by killing their leaders, stealing their food while offering nothing in return, banned indigenous festivals and ceremonies and any criticism of them was met with either death threats or with death itself. "

which, you give no source for, no context of source, etc, and sounds literally identical to crits of the soviet union involving the holodomor etc.

literally: they stole grain from the innocent peasants.

Gonna need a source for all this, and also, I want you to respond in turn to my points here:

like I have done for you >>1029681

specifically, you have failed to ackowledge the sterilisation programs of the Fujimori govt,

as well as this, the whole rest of that post, where I describe the nature of Latin America at the time, to which you respond:

>yet when you bring up "he was fighting le heckin CIA", this is a non-argument.

no, it isn't a non argument, its an extremely valid argument. You are simply focussing on only precisely what the SP did in specific moments of violence, ignoring entirely the picture around that, which is that they were 40 years into a continent wide, extremely brutal struggle against CIA backed narco imperialism, this point in history is OBJECTIVELY the most violence period in the history of Latin America, coinciding with Pablo Escobar in Columbia, the Contras in Nicaragua, similar goings on in El Salvador, Honduras. This is all one struggle, the national borders between it mean nothing to the CIA.

What did Peru, Columbia and Nicargua have firmly in common? Its literally the same drug route, all the way down, the operation is the same.

This is what the Shining Path were up against. I also didn't just talk about the CIA, i talked about Peru's extremely unstable political history, of coup after coup, you did not respond to this.

I also talked about other abortive Guerrilla movements, previously stomped out by the CIA, how the SP are actually, objectively, the most successful in several waves of this, which you did not respond to. If you can point to a more successful Peruvian Guerrilla movement, please point to it.

 No.1033684

>>1032537

Now, considering Latin America in general and Guerrilla movements. Many come to mind, we've got the Cuban revolution, the FSLN, the tupamoros, the National Liberation Army in El Salvador, Guerrilas in Bolivia backed by che Guevara, in Brazil, there is FARC/ELN, there is the Zapatista. Others besides.

On balance, which have been the most successful? Cuba, The FSLN then who is next? You could say the zapatistas probably, over a small area. Then who? In fact, weighing up all the facts, the shining path are the next most successful of all these.

Yet I do not hear ever complaints about all these other failed guerrila movements, FARC in particular were extremely violent, kiddnapping random people and so on. Torturing indigenous people, etc etc.

This is the bloody history of a continent made bloody by imperialism. Discussing that context is absolutely and completely an argument, indeed, it is the first consideration in our argument, are we to be talking from and a socialist, anti imperialist perspective.

>There were other non-communist/ anarchist factions who fought the white army, should we throw in our lot behind them uncritically because they too fought the white army?

my question is literally, whom do you throw your lot in with, in this situation? CIA, Shining Path, Tupac Gang? Magic option number three? Some mythical idea of the poor brutalised non politicised, indigenous, lacking entirely agency?

> But again, outside of Lucanamarca, this guy brutalised and attacked and killed other peasant forces and indigenous people who were under their control.

yes, in an open warzone

>Yet you deny that the shining path opressed indigenous communities.

in the sense that revolutionary violence has always been oppressive sure, they did that yeh.

>without adressing the other communities the Shining Path repressed in the links I provided.

excuse me for not in turn expressing the exact context of these mythical places you claim to have provided… yet… there literally aren't any links in these posts that isn't to that bad empanda video, who is bad empanda getting his material from? What source? What specifically does it say?

you are the douchebag.

 No.1033692

>>1033682
>He did contribute to theory
No

 No.1033710

>>1033692
He formed the theory which advanced class struggle in Peru far beyond what it has ever been before or since

 No.1033722

>>1033710
he advanced absolutely jack shit, especially not class struggle lmao

 No.1033743

>>1033722
Name a time in which class struggle has been more successful in Peru

 No.1033747

>>1033743
Tell me how exactly class struggle has been successful in Peru lol

 No.1033769

>>1033747
During the time of the shining path a communist party controlled significant parts of the country.

Name a time it has been better than this?

 No.1033782

>>1033769
You forgot the next part :^)
>While controling the majority of the countryside, they proceded to massacre indigenious people, calling them reactionaries and enemies of the revolution (yes, even the children).
>Also, they didn't made any significative change in the economic relations of the peasants and other liberated towns, instead, they became, in the eyes of residents of those towns, just as much parasitic as the goverment, refusing to help or to work, and even calling old indigenous traditions as bourgoise and reactionary.
And obviously the best part:
>When the leader of the SP, gonzalo, got captured, the whole movement started to fall appart, leaving only a bunch of drug trafficking guerrillas behind with no real hope of doing the same thing they did at the start of their war.

 No.1033786

>>1033782
>same old shit, already discussed
When has it been better?

 No.1034097

>>1033692
Yes he did, he invented marxism-leninism with death cult characteristics !


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