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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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File: 1659699279095.jpg (143.87 KB, 1080x1306, IMG_20220424_094820.jpg)

 No.1106500

How does mutual aid usually look like? It's fucking charity. Are we the church? It's using funds of your organization to give handouts to the needy - it's localized, anarchist praxis, it's not "community building" or "organizing" (both cringe as well).

People who need those donations are usually lumpen, e.g. they aspire to become a proletarian, not to sublate the proletarian condition, or are simply too downtrodden and beaten up to engage in revolutionary activity. In the 70s some Mao spontex groups thought that the Western proletariat is "bought off" so they invented the "fringe group theory" and started to house and feed homeless, addicts, and generally social outcasts. Turned out they were thankful for the help but had no interest in revolution because becoming a proletarian was what they aspired.

Focus on the working class. If you wanna do charity, fine, but don't call that organizing.

Pic unrelated

 No.1106502

Didn't the black panthers do something like that except more effective?

 No.1106509

mutual aid is the opposite of charity
try knowing what you’re talking about before you make a fucking thread

 No.1106511

You underestimate the tactical aspect of all of this.
The Muslim Brotherhood got an huge influence with things like charity. Recongnition of the belly, people who once where in deep shit will be more likely to listen to thoses who actually helped them than some guy who just hand over flyers.

 No.1106514

Black Panther Party blocks your path.
>inb4 some absolute brain worms take calling them wreckers/ CIA/ ineffective etc

If not unions/ mutual aid etc under the direction of a communist party, what is your fucking suggestion for building power. Post one or fuck off.

Don’t post that retarded kites article either, I guarantee you didn’t read the whole thing because it’s so boring

 No.1106515

you give out the charity on the condition that they serve in our militias and street gangs, simple as

 No.1106516

>>1106509
Show me an example of "real" mutual aid then.

 No.1106530

>>1106516
The black panther party, which you have straight over ignored. Or the many communist parties across t he world who provided healthcare, education etc to the proletariat.

 No.1106537

>>1106516
let me read the first line of a wikipedia article for you since even that seems to be too intellectual for you
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_aid_(organization_theory)
>In organization theory, mutual aid is a voluntary reciprocal exchange of resources and services for mutual benefit.

 No.1106540

>>1106537
>voluntary reciprocal exchange
Literally when has this ever happened? Especially if your theory is doing this with poor people they by definition CAN'T GIVE BACK making it no different to charity

 No.1106549

>>1106540
>still ignoring the BPP
What possesses a person to be so openly and visibly stupid?

 No.1106553

>>1106549
You need to demonstrate how the communities that benefited from the Free Breakfast program gave something equivalent to the party

 No.1106560

>>1106553
They became members of the party very often and were involved in conducting further programs as well as other party duties. It was the whole model.

 No.1106615

>>1106549
I don't idolize or fetishize the BPP. Eldrich Cleaver was kinda crazy as well.

Plus that's like YOUR ONLY example. According to the Wiki article "voluntary exchange", you mean like coalitions? Okay, don't call it mutual aid, call it a united front or something. I wouldn't even know how to call "mutual aid" in another language, it seems largely a burger thing. Like, what does that even say, people help each other? I mean the mafia does mutual aid too. So do politicians. It means everything from nothing.

 No.1106626

File: 1659706960734-0.jpg (278.17 KB, 1027x1280, Prop_256.jpg)

And yes in 95% of the cases it's charity and handouts. Ain't getting any food if you aren't wearing your mask, hobo Steve!

 No.1106646

I have never seen an OP with a pic more true than that but text so fucking wrong

 No.1106650

>>1106511
>You underestimate the tactical aspect of all of this.
Exactly. Also you can do both, organize around the proletariat and make sure the lumpen are on our side.
If you don't, reactionaries will make sure they themselves do it (see church).

 No.1106654

>>1106650
Sure because you just happen to have an unlimited amount of resources.

 No.1106655

>>1106650
You are acting like the lumpenproletariat are the only people who are hungry

 No.1106665

File: 1659708047404.jpg (51.28 KB, 576x1024, EXTRA GLOW.jpg)

wtf is that pic lol
black femcel shit is wild

anyway
>it's not "community building" or "organizing" (both cringe as well). '
>organizing is cringe
>mfw

>People who need those donations are usually lumpen, e.g. they aspire to become a proletarian, not to sublate the proletarian condition

Proletarians don't aspire to this either in most cases lmao. If lumpens believe they can become something other than their current class status, they are a step ahead of most proles.
>In the 70s some Mao spontex groups thought that the Western proletariat is "bought off" so they invented the "fringe group theory" and started to house and feed homeless, addicts, and generally social outcasts. Turned out they were thankful for the help but had no interest in revolution because becoming a proletarian was what they aspired.
Gee that kinda sounds like they were right in their theory that being a prole wasn't so bad, but were therefore wrong in their strategy to proletarianize people, therefore putting them into the "bought off" status level rather than revolutionizing them more directly.

 No.1106680

>>1106500
>mutual aid is charity

READ BOOKS INSTEAD OF RELYING ON YOUTUBE AND IMAGEBOARDS FOR INFORMATION

 No.1106694

>>1106680 (me)
YOU DO NOT EVEN HAVE TO READ THE ACTUAL TEXTS

BUY A "FOR DUMMIES" GUIDE OR SOMETHING JUST SO YOU UNDERSTAND THE BARE BASICS OF WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT

 No.1106710

>>1106680
>>1106694
t. mutual aidoid

 No.1106716

>>1106710
Likely correct well done
This however isn't relevant to their point

Look you don't even need to buy a book

You can highlight a word or phrase on a phone by holding down on the screen where the word is

Then when the pop up menu comes you should be able to do a search on the phrase

 No.1106717

The childish screeching of the OP ITT really is like nails on a chalkboard.

 No.1106763

>>1106500
didn't read that. black dudes fuck fat white girls because they're extremely easy (due to self esteem) or they have something the dude wants (a house or something) never knew why white ppl never got this.

 No.1106773


 No.1106790

>>1106710
bruh
you're not even explaining why you think it's charity

>>1106717
they really do make our points for us tbh
back on 8chan I noticed the number of people posting with anarcho flags tended to increase after the periods of these regular spergouts

 No.1106796

>>1106680
>replying to somebody that goes on an imageboard to troll you by saying mutual aid is charity
sor your life out, faggot.

 No.1106801


 No.1106811

OP doesn't understand that the real purpose of mutual aid isn't just to hand out food to bribe people into supporting you. It's to provide services to people that capitalism fails to as a basis to tie people's interests to your movement in the same way a successful state does. It's about creating alternative economic institutions around which a political apparatus grows. The BPP are an example, they provided food to hungry school kids when white capitalist society would not. They protected their communities from crime and police harassment when nobody else would. They educated Black children about their own history when the white supremacist education system would not. Mutual aid can even be seen extensively in the broader labour movement, where a range of services were made available to union members and their families. Mutual aid should best be thought of as the establishment of a social contract between revolutionaries and the people they want to serve, it's an embryonic form of the proletarian state prior to its actual establishment. It's simply a rudimentary economic component of dual power.

 No.1106813

>Hazcel thread
tsk tsk

 No.1106825

>>1106811
> It's to provide services to people that capitalism fails to as a basis to tie people's interests to your movement in the same way a successful state does.
This is the hard part, isn't it? To identify what the capitalist state fails to provide on a local basis.

 No.1106828

>>1106811
>>1106825
and how do you ensure that people would even follow that "social contract"? What would stop people from using the services as just "free food" or "free resources"?

 No.1106831

>>1106825
Literally just ask people m8.
>>1106828
If you do work and build institutions that improves people's lives then they will be naturally inclined to defend them. This is how governments get people to support them, by working to ensure that people see their interests as being tied up with the strength and longevity of the institutions that rule them.

 No.1106835

>>1106763
>Nooo love can't win

>>1106500
Raza cosmica wins again
Thinly veiled racists seethe

 No.1107445

in the vast majority of the cases from what I've seen mutual aid is not mutual. its people getting food from local businesses and food banks and giving it to the local homeless population while trying to talk politics with them. a good goal for a group like that would be to get the homeless to run the entire project themselves, in that way it would be more mutual as they would be helping each other survive.

better goals around homeless organizing would be things like unemployed workers councils or "homeless unions" but again these mutual self-help groups that can lead to them fighting off sweeps or helping the ones that want to get off the street to do that and join the working class.

also, anyone who has the idealist notion that you can just read theory to people and feed them and that will turn them revolutionary will change their mind pretty quick when they face the reality of drug addiction and mental illness that are super wide spread in that population as well as reactionary attitudes and lumpenization. the new types of meth and fentanyl are much worse than oldschool meth and heroin and its almost impossible to even have a conversation about anything with a lot of the people who just want to eat some food and yell at you for doing that, let alone get them to use the literature for anything more than toilet paper. i'm sorry but i've just seen this in real life too much.

I think food is much better used to support unions during strikes and things like that. if you are able to organize a homeless union and able to strike solidarity between workers, homeless and tenants on a common issue that could be good but that is a cross-class alliance and super shaky and uncertain to begin with but i guess not impossible. i think its a waste of time though and you could be doing better things like helping workers form strike committees or doing communist agitation and education.

also, people claim mutual aid builds mysical dual power but in most cases its just a glorified NGO that doesn't pay its workers that does the work of the state for it, radicalizes its members to weird anti-organizational anarchist shit and completely sidesteps class struggle. organizing with your local IWW or other syndicalist union is a way better thing to do if you want to go the anarchist route. there are also communist parties to join, though some maoists also have a weird fetish for mutual aid, probably coming from trying to immitate the panthers.

people bring up the panthers but their breakfast program and schools were directed at poor black kids and not of fully lumpenized individuals. its a type of social work again but there was also more potential with directed communist agitation at children. maybe it could have worked if the glow and internal tensions didn't kill the party, we can't know and no one is really doing it like that today so we probably wont know any time soon.

 No.1107449

>>1106835
Romantic love is a spook.

 No.1107487

>>1106514
>some absolute brain worms take calling them wreckers/ CIA/ ineffective etc
They weren't alphabet soup themselves, but they were compromised by the alphabet soup thanks to traitors and sellouts in their leadership.

 No.1107491

>>1107449
This.
Romantic love is ironically worse than lust.
Romantic love demands you to warp your entire lifestyle to fit into an eternal painting/movie for your partner and/or vice versa.

Lust is just a quick smoke or a long jam session.

 No.1107602

>>1106509
no it isn't. they are both aid, one is just not mutual

 No.1107653

>>1106811
can you explain to me the strategy of dual power, or how you conceive of its place in an overall revolutionary strategy?
>>1107445
beautiful post comrade. >>1106514 READ THIS, (>>1107445) FOOL!
>>1106500
why is organizing ("organizing") cringe???

also:
political education happens through struggle, recruit from the advanced of the proletariat, focus on the petite and lumpen elements secondarily - basically sums it up

 No.1107836

>>1106516
How about the numerous Latin American guerrillas who integrated themselves into rural communities and helped carrying about whatever tasks were necessary in exchange for protection and support from the people?

 No.1107841

>>1107491
>Actual loyalty and care for another person is just uhhh too much
Shit like this is part of why Western society deserves to be destroyed on every level
Individualism on this level needs to be excised like the tumor it is
Westoids despise the idea of caring about anything but themselves, including and especially many western leftists, it’s a disgusting quality

 No.1107854

File: 1659785448466.jpg (31.73 KB, 516x551, smoking crack.jpg)

>>1107841
welcome to the internet full of wannabe tough guys and cool dudes who definitely fuck bitches and get money and could beat your ass with a blindfold on

 No.1107933

>>1107445

strongly agree with pretty much everything here

wholesale rejection of direct material support projects like OP is doing is not useful, but it's definitely true that a lot of existing "mutual aid" projects (especially ones that are not tied to a party or coherent ideological project) are very prone to getting co-opted by NGOs or becoming charities detached from a political program rather than self-sustaining mutual aid projects.

to the question of them being "useful for recruitment", I've never really seen that happen and to the extent that you get people from it ime it's mostly people interested in the aid project itself and not anything else your org or party is doing. something everyone tends to think when they're very inexperienced is "lets run some mutual aid projects to recruit minorities and poor people" (maybe not as cynically but something similar), but usually the only recruits you'll get out of it will be other people from the existing left "scene" or activist milieu, which you probably don't need any more of polluting your organization or party.

there's definitely some tactical utility in making yourself visible while dealing with real material problem, it's also useful for coalition building and as a focal point for struggle (people tend to mobilize aggressively when the cops disrupt something people see as a public service). those are all fairly minor benefits so if you find yourself spending a ton of time on it you should definitely reassess what you're doing but overall it's fairly low-risk and not something to get heated up about

at worst if it's mismanaged it's a tactical waste of time

 No.1108060

lmao
That pic is accurate from personal experience and it makes me uncomfy.

 No.1108204

>>1106615
>I don't idolize or fetishize the BPP
cool great nobody does. That doesn't change the fact that this method of organisation was highly effective.

You've gone from ignoring the question, to making up an arbitrary standard by which it has to hold up to "it has to be mutual" which, I showed it does, now you're just changing directions yet again, trying to imply I idolise or fetishize them.

No, wrong, i am simply pointing specifically to this tactic they used to great effect.

>Plus that's like YOUR ONLY example


No, its not, I posted here >>1106530 "Or the many communist parties across t he world who provided healthcare, education etc to the proletariat." examples include, the revolutionary forces in Cuba, in China during the civil war, many other examples throuhgout Latin America, such as the Sandinistas, in Venezuela under Chavez, The MAS party engages in these sorts of things, in fact basically most socialist experiments.

>According to the Wiki article

How can I tell the rest of this is going to be utterly brainwormed?

>"voluntary exchange", you mean like coalitions?

doesn't in the least follow logically. No, a coalition and facilitating the free distribution of goods is not the same thing, although sure, you could do it as part of a coalition.

> Like, what does that even say, people help each other?

sure, but specifically in this context, there is a long history of the idea which informs the word how we use it. Semantic bitch

>I mean the mafia does mutual aid too. So do politicians.


Yeh and "the mafia" (there are numerous of them) tend to be highly successful organisations you dumb fuck. So do lots of politicians. Even though this is supposed to be a gotcha, and sounds like it comes from the mind of a 13 year old, so shouldn't even be considered, what you have actually done is re-inforced the idea that it is a succesful tactic.

>it means everything from nothing

nonesense statement

>>1106654
no, of course you don't, but many revolutionary organisations have seen fit to put some resources into this.

>>1106655
okay so extend it to whoever needs it. Like the BPP did.

>>1106717
yeh he really is bottom of the barrel dumb as is literally everybody who makes this lazy critques by the way. I want all of you who do this to feel insulted and shamed, you are brain dead.

>>1106828
Some people may well do that. So what. Most won't. You have a porky mind set.

>>1107445
This is a classic example of a poster who just wants to say words.

this whole concern troll line of

>oooh it has to be literally 100% like for like mutual

is just a bizzare internet brained critique. Why must it be fully mutual? Nothing really works like that. The point is to create a program which builds your base, just because it doesn't sweep up 100% of participants into that, doesn't mean it isn't worth doing. With any kind of organisation you will have hangers on not 100% in line with the goals, or even actively anthetitical to them, particularly in mass organisations.

>its people getting food from local businesses and food banks and giving it to the local homeless population while trying to talk politics with them. a good goal for a group like that would be to get the homeless to run the entire project themselves, in that way it would be more mutual as they would be helping each other survive.


So, what you are saying is, there is a good way to do mutual aid, and a bad way to do it. You've pointed out the good way. In line with the OP, that doesn't make "mutual aid retarded" it means, you should do it properly. Same with literally anything. Being bad at boxing and getting your ass kicked in a fight doesn't mean the discipline of boxing is retarded.

I have seen mutual aid done in the bad way you describe, I have also seen it done in the good way you describe.

>also, anyone who has the idealist notion that you can just read theory to people and feed them and that will turn them revolutionary will change their mind pretty quick

Sure, but it is 10 steps ahead of the idealist notion that you can build a communist party without mass organisation and mass work and rejecting those things.

>I think food is much better used to support unions during strikes and things like that.

It is entirely possible to do both.

> if you are able to organize a homeless union and able to strike solidarity between workers, homeless and tenants on a common issue that could be good but that is a cross-class alliance

it isn't cross class, the lumpen are a subsection of the proletariat at large.

>i think its a waste of time though and you could be doing better things like helping workers form strike committees

you know a party could have, for example, a department for labour agitation, as well as, a department for tenant organisation, and a department for mutual aid initiatives and that say, a central committee could coordinate their activities

>or doing communist agitation and education.

it is literally a form of communist agitation and can and is often combined with education even though you have just above claimed it is idealist to just try and educate people.

>also, people claim mutual aid builds mysical dual power but in most cases its just a glorified

again with the "in most cases". In most cases songs uploaded to soundcloud are awful. In some cases they are good though. But I suppose that makes the entire medium literally worthless in your eyes..

>but in most cases its just a glorified NGO

have you ever considered that the term NGO is completely nebulous and actually includes organisations widely ranging from the church, to a brass band, to a local football team.

 No.1108205

>and completely sidesteps class struggle
organise the working class to provide for itself is the class struggle. Doing it bit by bit is absolutely fine, and if you think it can be any other way you suffer from turbo ultra brainworms

> organizing with your local IWW or other syndicalist union is a way better thing to do if you want to go the anarchist route.

In fact, mutual aid works best when working in tandem with such groups, as you said above "better used to support unions during strikes"

> there are also communist parties to join

yes.. and.. what should these communist parties be engaged in?

>though some maoists also have a weird fetish for mutual aid, probably coming from trying to immitate the panthers.

better than a fetish for writing walls of text that amount to "it should be done correctly" well… of course it should.

>people bring up the panthers but their breakfast program and schools were directed at poor black kids

shit wonder if those kids had parents.

> its a type of social work again but there was also more potential with directed communist agitation at children.

you mean like the idealist notion that you can just read theory at people until they join you? Seems awful contradictory mr paragraph after paragraph.

>we can't know

we watched it work, until the glow killed it as you say

>no one is doing that today

and there are no successful western communist parties today, just full of bitchy whiners who like to make long critiques that amount to nothing while themselves having done nothing.

I wonder if these two things could be connected.

>>1107653
yes I've read it. I agree, mutual aid should be done correctly. Now what?

>political education happens through struggle,

And struggle is conducted via infrastructure. Infrastructure requires material maintainance.

>>1107836
notice how they've completely ignored these examples because it hurts their pre concieved twitter developed notions

>>1107933
all of those positive points you've mentioned are highly valuable.

I really think leftypol doesn't really understand exactly how mass organisations work, what the word mass actually means and implies. Neither do they understand how normal people think, marketing, or really anything.

 No.1108451

>>1108204

sage, i read your line by line reply and my wall of text was me sharing my main takeways from my experience with mutual aid, it was now a wholesale defense of OP's position. as you yourself noticed there were things i thought could be done better than what I had seen and things that I think are a waste of time and things that are limitations of the format as a whole due to the problems of drug addiction and mental illness.



> Sure, but it is 10 steps ahead of the idealist notion that you can build a communist party without mass organisation and mass work and rejecting those things.


you implied rejection of mass work i didn't say anything about rejecting contact with the masses. there are many other points of contact with the masses and the more fruitful ones are sites of actual class struggle

> it isn't cross class, the lumpen are a subsection of the proletariat at large.


not really. some are trully just unemployed workers but many are fully lumpenized and are more akin to petit-bourgeois in their relationship to the mode of production, in that they are street hustlers and have no class solidarity with the working class. i have met many that live by criminal trades or are facing severe mental illness and have no realistic way of returning to a job site ever and others that have no interest of ever doing that even if they could. i have met some that are just former wokers and are looking for work. i would say its about 50% : 50% based on my conversations and investigations. how is that not a cross-class collaboration? a better site of contact with the working class would be at an actual job site. there are similar issues with tenants at public housing as well, though there you actually see one section of lumpen trying to keep another section of lumpen out of their buildings so there is even inner-rivalry there that I've seen, with tenants who are on welfare forming tenants unions only to call on the cops when homeless come into their building or when they see someone smoking meth in the building.

>>or doing communist agitation and education.

>it is literally a form of communist agitation and can and is often combined with education even though you have just above claimed it is idealist to just try and educate people.
that could have been worded better but i was saying its better to do communist agitation than weird anti-orgnizational anarachist shit. and btw that is a lof what my critique is against. much of mutual aid is run by anarchists and many of them reject both organization and class struggle. maybe you are arguing with spooks here but there is no contradiction proper if you get what I was trying to say now.

>>also, people claim mutual aid builds mysical dual power but in most cases its just a glorified

>again with the "in most cases".
right and that's why I don't listen to soundcloud rappers at all, its a massive waste of time. why not do something better that isn't going to waste a bunch of your time and produce better results instead. but more to the point, since you have actual experience in running a good mutual aid (I assume, not that you said you did) i would love to hear about how to do it the right way, comrade

>term NGO is completely nebulous

what the term usually implies is that the org is not revolutionary, like a church or football team

>yes.. and.. what should these communist parties be engaged in?

propaganda work, educational work, helping form strike committees, helping form workers councils, coordinating activity between existing working class organs, generalizing economic struggles into political ones and helping workers make the leap to revolutionary consciousness where they haven't already done this themselves, conduct investigations and lay down tactics as events unfold, salt workplaces and help form new radical unions and strike committees.

> shit wonder if those kids had parents.

im sure the parents clearly were grateful for the work the party was doing even if they politically did not engage with it.
that was not what I was getting at though, if you bothered to read it, I clearly gave the example of trying to impart theory on someone struggling with severe drug addiction and mental health issues and lumpenized mode of existence vs kids that are relatively healthy and still haven't been completely fucked by the system. clearly the latter is a better target for educational work. parents are too though especially if they are working class and capable of having those conversations

> better than a fetish for writing walls of text that amount to "it should be done correctly" well… of course it should.

there was more to the wall of text other than it should be done correctly but that was still a point worth making and also i don't super disagree but we also should not fetishize or worship any communist group, including the panthers but rather try to extract form their experience the parts that that worked and that still apply to our material conditions. plus im sure outside of imageboards you have seen a wall of text before and have been able to read it, so chin up

> you mean like the idealist notion that you can just read theory at people until they join you? Seems awful contradictory mr paragraph after paragraph.

said there was more potential to it. education is an important part of party work as I'm sure you know, mr line by line

>and there are no successful western communist parties today, just full of bitchy whiners who like to make long critiques that amount to nothing while themselves having done nothing.

true, it is a shitshow. that said, my critiques do come from actually having done some things.

 No.1108453

>still bumping tis shit thread from some anti-mutual aid, anti-book retard.
Kill yourselves.

 No.1108465

>>1108451
>right and that's why I don't listen to soundcloud rappers at all,
Ys< I know this has nothng to do with anything but my autism but the vast majority of music on SoundCloud isn't rappers, retard.
Why the fuck are you assuming this?

 No.1108490

>>1108451
>implied rejection of mass work
Okay, you may not be doing this, but of the people railing against mutual aid, they tend to be railing against other forms of mass work as well. I agree generally, we could have an extremely fruitful thread discussing how best we should do mass work, rather than starting the thread with "mutual aid is retarded" we could start with "how can mutual aid be effectively executed"

>on lumpen/ proletarian distinctions

I know many lumpen, I know one who could (maybe) be decribed as petit bourg in his criminality, but that really isn't how criminal gangs work in my experience for the most part. For the most part its just teams of hard cunts and they might have a top boy but he's not like accruing the lions share of profits via contracts and property or whatever, hes just the hardest and they all steal drug dealers stashes together. Also, the one in particular I know is a militant Irish republican in the very real sense of that phrase, who has been involved in multiple anti imperialist conflicts around the world.

I wouldn't describe a corner pusher or street hustler as petit bourg.

That said, even if it is 50/50 as you say, that is still a very large (and expanding) section of people. As well as this, this section of people tend to be very resourceful and often fearless, these are things you need for a revolutionary organisation. Not least, having some people who are good at fighting and secrecy around also helps.

Also, I think there is a tendency to view all "lumpen" as extremely criminal violent and erratic people, when in fact they might just be a pretty peaceful drug user or something, or simply somebody who had some bad luck and is unemployed, has missed out on education, perhaps has some learning difficulties, or simply had family responsibility at a young age. Whatever it is, certainly not irredeemable, petit bourgeoise or whatever.

So, I would only see it as a very tenuous cross class collaboration.

>on anarchist stuff

okay, lets assume from this point on in the conversation, we are talking specifically about highly organised party work

>soundcloud rap

but there are some gems there tho
>my experience of mutual aid
worked very well as an offshoot of a union
>propaganda work, educational work, helping form strike committees, helping form workers councils, coordinating activity between existing working class organs,
I think all of this is easier to sustain if you have infrastructure in place to make it easier for people to take part in, i think that infrastructure can serve the double function of serving both lumpen and workers alike.
>someone struggling with severe drug addiction and mental health issues and lumpenized mode of existence
by the way, the panthers had also begun to provide healthcare. I also think community organised mental health care has some extremely interesting potential.
>parents are too though especially if they are working class and capable of having those conversations
in my experience the parents of children are some of the best political operatives you will find, they want they best for their kids. Far more reliable than some students or something, also, they are limited on time, so they don't half do things and.. other parents trust a family orientated person.

 No.1108491

>>1108453
we can make it a good thread if we try

 No.1108492

>>1108465
i mean to be fair i almost don't listen to anything on soundcloud either unless its an artist i know from somewhere else already and know its good. used soundcloud rappers because they are kind of a meme for being shitty at rapping.

 No.1108535

>>1108490
> rather than starting the thread with "mutual aid is retarded" we could start with "how can mutual aid be effectively executed"
yeah don't disagree on that one. OP's just doing his chan shtick, it did get our attention though


> but there are some gems there tho

there are yeah. i mean to be real if you wanna dig through the crates you gotta go through a lot of shit first

> worked very well as an offshoot of a union

aha ok cool

> panthers had also begun to provide healthcare. I also think community organised mental health care has some extremely interesting potential.

most orgs don't have the resources to do this but its necessary if we want to organize people off the street. around here hospitals are inundated with court-ordered rehabs for people coming off meth and fent and they have to take them and sometimes it takes months before someone can come off of their psychotic symptoms and start being able to have regular conversations and communication. its also really hard work to deal with psychotic people that are oppositional defiant and nurses are burning out all the time considering suicide from overwork etc. so i don't disagree its a heluva challenge though and most orgs are already straining to fill the ranks for even basic organizational work at least in my experience.

> parents of children are some of the best political operatives you will find

true i have some comrades like that, they don't fuck around

> i think that infrastructure can serve the double function of serving both lumpen and workers alike.

i think in a mass revolutionary upswell orgs will have the capacity to do that type of thing but if your org is already strained you have to focus on where you will be mot effective

> corner pusher or street hustler as petit bourg.

depends on the organization they are a part of or if they are even part of one. they do work for themselves sometimes, which is the criminal version of petit bourg but some are also parts of organized crime crews with hierarchies where there is a definite boss or shot caller and luitenants that collect the surplus and decide what to do with it. others do work in crews like you describe and can pool resources kinda like a criminal coop. there are other arrangements as well.

the bigger issue imo is that peeps like that often wholesale adopt individualist mentality of me vs you and while being resourceful and fearless, fighting and secrecy are more loyal to themselves than their gang let alone any political group that will approach them. they are far more likely to work with someone that pays them, like a fascist than with leftists, but there are exceptions. i also think organizing prostitutes that are getting pimped is potentially fruitful ground because they experience exploitation in the same way as most workers do but there are obvious difficulties there and again i think most leftist groups at least in the west at the current stage of development don't have the resources to devote to projects like that but if there is a revolutionary upswell we'll have to or the fash will take the lead with the lumpen like they always do

 No.1108593

>>1106500
>doesn't know what mutual aid is
ngmi


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