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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internet about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
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File: 1659757762319.jpg (199.18 KB, 1200x750, eagle_1_1200x1200.jpg)

 No.1107562[Last 50 Posts]

That's a realization that is breaking the brain of many people at this moment tearing them apart looking at every crevice to hide under trying to cope with it and ignore the reality as usa rapidly declines on world stage

What was it like for you when you realized this?

 No.1107578

>>1107562
It made perfect sense
I’m a black man, I never could fully square that circle that the country that enslaved my ancestors, had my grandparents living under apartheid, and exterminated the original inhabitants of its landmass suddenly became the good guys seemingly around the 70s or something

 No.1107579

When I read about CIA fuckery all over the world

 No.1107580

im 1st gen mexican so you see it and youre told about it

 No.1107582

>>1107562
reading about the yellow peril and western imperialism turning me from a ayn rand self hating asian to a nazbol asian internationalist

 No.1107583

When I was a kid and America invaded Afghanistan.

 No.1107584

Question is probably meant for burgers
I was an early communist larper, like in elementary school, so I always kinda hated the US. Ill never forget being genuinely heartbroken in history classes after reading the anti communist propaganda.before I knew it was bullshit, or sympathizing with all the "enemies" that the US was always bombing the shit out of in Asia and beyond
Also growing up in the 2000s was like watching a slow motion trainwreck, politically. I was too young for 9/11 but seeing Bush start multiple wars on a credit card followed up with Obamas cucked shit? hard to not detest the US after that.
Finally being a leaf our natoinal identity is literally definded by not being Ameicans so it was a tiny leap to thinking theyre the bad guys
Point being, i kinda just grew up hating America, theres wasnt any one moment. I ironically embrace the "youre politics is anti americanism" meme sometimes but tbh it might be true. no love for Canada either anymore doe

 No.1107586

I'm not American, but I guess mostly when I started reading into communism/socialism, and all the development and progress AES states had achieved. And how the US was opposed to it all, which led to learning about US imperialism and hegemony and also the atrocities committed by the US before socialist countries even existed.

I want to finish this with asking anons another question, why do you think the US ended up becoming the leading country against socialist and anti-imperialist movements and states? I think geographic determinism probably influenced a lot.

 No.1107588

I never really liked america because my dad would have dinner-table conversations about how sherman made a deal with satan to burn georgia and a cabal of satanists with bush and obama ruled the world and were going to bring about the antichrist new world order. The prussian school system, with its strict patriotic indoctrination, constantly made me feel like i needed to hide my true beliefs, but i did feel at least somewhat doubtful that what i believed was right, because i was discovering my sexuality and had plenty of nonwhite friends, something my parents wouldnt approve of if they had known

 No.1107589

>>1107586
> why do you think the US ended up becoming the leading country against socialist and anti-imperialist movements and states?
It was the actual victor of the World Wars due to its geographic positioning, other countries that would take the lead against international socialism were gone; the original country that was the main enemy of the Soviet Union was Germany

 No.1107606

Never had a singular moment of realizing that "America bad". It was just a long series of escalating realizations and dropping of veils. Eventually shit just piles up and one either has to start denying reality and think the same shit done 10000th time is still just a well meant honest mistake or or start to "dislike" america.

 No.1107607

The first time - not much. I got it but I didnt get it. I understood the history of repression, the lies, the daily oppression, but I didnt know the full extent. The older I get the more I see from my actual experience, and the more history i read, and I see just how completely evil the government is. The people suck too lots of the time but i'm not about to throw normal ppl with no power under the bus for just trying to survive, most aren't totally shitty. But the government is pure evil, like doing the most villainous shit, and lying about it constantly, projecting all their fucked up shit onto everyone else… I mean it's one thing to hear that, know it in some milder cases, like just knowing isn't really knowing, you know? I rediscover my hatred for this country all the time.

 No.1107610

>>1107562
When Bush invaded Iraq, despite how everyone knew 911 was done by Saudis. I was 13.

 No.1107612

Before I was born. Not everyone on the board are Americans retard.

 No.1107613

>>1107612
Doesn't Vietnam have like a 90% positive opinion on America?

 No.1107614

watching usa bomb the shit out of serbia from a nearby nation had me fantacizing about milosevic turning full commie and starting a balkan union as a kid. then my family moved to the US and despite having pledge allegance to the flag in school i never felt american and still dont. i did start feeling a little US patriotism for a bit during 911 but when the iraq war happened i started hating america again because it was obvious they will bully any small country they can get away with. this was not yet marxist analysis and didn't consider inter-imperialist conflict, which came later in my life but it was pretty clear even then that america was the biggest evil empire. i did also listen to a lot of rage against the machine and public enemy as a kid, so maybe that had some effect on me too, who knows

 No.1107616

>>1107613
According to Burger stats
But those are the same stats that claim the international community opposes Russia and China when it’s actually just white countries and the former Axis Powers that do

 No.1107617

It was always in the back of mind. So it was more like a slow burn until the cartoon light bulb goes off then I was like Oh. Ohhh fuck bro.

 No.1107642

In a college class I learned about the dakota access pipeline protests at Standing Rock Indian reservation. I knew the U.S. wasn't perfect, but I thought the worst of its actions were over. At least I thought the damn genocide of the natives was over. I knew they weren't doing so great these days, but I never could have imagined the U.S. continuing to actively encroach on the beyond pitiful amount of land that they have left. To help you understand my shock : gratitude and reverence to the natives is supposedly a core American value, what with thanksgiving and shit. I know it seems irreconcilable with manifest destiny, but you have to understand that most americans see that phase of history as over. And now we feel bad for the natives, but what else did you realistically want us to do? That's the national sentiment. Again, I never believed my country was perfect or anything, but I did believe that it abided by some sort of moral code, like dexter. So seeing peaceful protestors getting domed by rubber bullets for upholding a "value" this country was supposed to believe in dearly, really forced me to see what I was too afraid to see before: this country has no values whatsoever except to make as much profit as possible.

 No.1107845

You'll grow out of it eventually

 No.1107852

>>1107616
I don't think they are the same stats

 No.1107876

File: 1659786682573.mp4 (16.96 MB, 720x720, tooktoomuchanthem.mp4)

>iraq invasion when I was in middle school made no sense. the WMD stuff was obviously made up, but I thought "well the saddam guy is a dick tater so I guess that makes it ok…"
>then obama continuing that war and adding libya syria somalia, yemen, despite being le "left wing democrat"
>staying in afghanistan another 11 years after osama allegedly killed in pakistan
>learn about operation cyclone
>learn the hijackers weren't even from the countries we invaded
<wtf
>learn about other CIA ops
>meanwhile see occupy wall street happen
>support the working class against the ruling class
>get called socialist/commie for this despite not knowing what that means
>look into socialism, communism, etc.
<wtf this is based
>oh but gorillion killed mao stalin lenin
>learn more 20th century cold war history
>watch bernie get ratfucked
>damn the democrats and the republicans are irredeemable
>learn the FBI entraps mentally ill people
>learn more about the CIA's functions
>learn that the border patrol is often caught giving guns to the cartels
>citizens' united lets unlimited campaign donations
>no incentive to listen to voters
>learn about repeal of glass-steagal and how basically ruling class investors push their losses onto the public by putting up shares that are about to crash as collateral in exchange for liquid
>literally legalized bank robbery by the ruling class, and subsidized by the public
> watch suicide rates go up
> more school shootings
> more drug addiction
> ICE camps
> get rid of trump
> biden keeps the ICE camps
> gives 40 billion to some nazis in ukraine for a dumb proxy war against russia
> we already destroyed russia in the 90s why do we keep expanding nato to their border
> even bernie is introducing a bill to sanction china for "carbon emissions" even though they manufacture all our shit for us and have fewer *per capita* carbon emissions and quadruple our population
< holy shit my country fuckin SUCKS! D2A

 No.1107882

File: 1659787017436.webm (18.76 MB, 1080x1080, Frijolero-H0YSd6lMxRk.webm)


 No.1107901

If you were a true Communist you would understand that American history must be opposed at all costs. America is an evil empire, a great Satan, the root of all cruelty in this world. They are the greatest purveyors of capitalism and are responsible for more deaths than any other force in human history. Americans are a beastly, disgusting people, with no redeeming qualities, unworthy of pity or mercy.

It is the task of every international Communist to destroy the United States of America. All American cities must be destroyed, all American citizens executed. Their statues must be torn down, their history buried and forgotten by all. Only once the oceans run red with American blood, once the evil empire is no more, will global Communism flourish and true human freedom be possible.

 No.1107909

>>1107845
t. lib

 No.1108461

File: 1659817783632.mp4 (10.13 MB, 1280x720, based colombian lads.mp4)

>>1107901
Based
America delenda est

 No.1108472

>What was it like when you realized the usa is a "bad guy"
By not being a burger, the same as everyone else even a third normal.
Sage and fuck you go back to your containment thread.

 No.1108507

all of history suddenly made sense as a coherent whole and wasn't a just a list of confusing "random" events anymore

 No.1108510

>>1107562
when I was 12 years old and saw the highway of death photos

 No.1108512

I felt (still feel some) tremendous guilt about it. Also anger how shit this country is for being the most imperialist and basically none of that wealth is actually used.

 No.1108547

>>1107562
I am Cuban so my whole life has been nothing but pro US propaganda. All Cubans in the US think Democrats somehow enabled Castro or were pro-Castro, and if I questioned why they were so loyal to the other side that offered equally nothing, I was called a commie and told to read a book. We had far-right militias LARPing in South Florida, practicing in my neighborhood, you can hear gunshots often before the land was developed. Especially being a kid/teen during 9/11 and the Iraq war, all this certainly influenced me to always question the US. All the answers always given to me seemed superficial or "just because" which forced me to dive deep into both US and Cuban history.

I don't *hate* countries, its a bit reductionist to just lay all kinds of fault over a long period of time onto one entity, but I especially hate what the US did to Cubans. Many Cubans have consumed nothing but propaganda and hate their own. The revolution has lived on, but the cost has been brutal, and seeing fellow countrymen here happy to keep starving those back home really does hurt on another level that I won't bother trying to describe.

 No.1108548

>>1107901
I mean, I hate burgerland but the rabid some people have hatred towards American people really makes me cringe. How are any leftist ideas to take hold in America if the purveyors of said ideas are a bunch of genocidal maniacs?

 No.1108551

>>1108548
*rabid hatred. I'm retarded, sorry.

 No.1108592

in the uk most people hate america (atleast in the north) so i just progressively started hating them more

 No.1108598

IDK most of the basic stuff I learned about always made it seem pretty bad tbh. Hell growing up around racists who got hardons about the Dallas Cowboys playing the Washington Redskins and saying "the cowboys are gonna wipe out the indians all over again" made it hard not to recognize how bad the place was. It's more like the older I got the more bad things I learned about and it kept turning out even worse than I previously had imagined.

 No.1108631

>What was it like when you realized the usa is a "bad guy"
everyone outside the US realizes this from an early age

 No.1108674

I dunno I just kinda always innately understood. Being brown does that I guess. I remember seeing Saddam's execution on liveleak as a little kid and somehow recognized that this was America's doing and shit was gonna get way way worse.

 No.1108686

>>1107562
The who didn't surprise me as the what, the how, and the how much.

 No.1108692

it was a blow to all the 'murica is the greatest country' propaganda I grew up with. I felt dumb and cheated that I believed this shit and finally understood why the world hated us

 No.1108749

In leafland during the 2000s anti-American sentiment was pretty widespread. I remember most people viewing the Bush government as dangerous warmongers, apparently missing the irony that we were fighting alongside them in Afghanistan. I remember my general perception of the US being a kind of aggressive militaristic state filled with backwards, fanatical rednecks. Perceptions improved considerably when Obama was elected, but at the same time the recession created the perception of a horrifically unequal, unjust society (again, missing the irony that that applied to us as well). Canadians have a massive superiority complex towards Americans, we love to think of ourselves as embodying all the best parts of American society without any of the worst, not unlike the way urban liberals view themselves in relation to rural people and conservatives. As such, coming to understand that the US was a murderous empire was hardly a shock to me, and was more or less compatible with the sentiments I held during as a kid. A bigger ideological hurdle was realizing that our self perception as "America but only the good parts" was complete nonsense.

 No.1108756

>>1108749
great post overall but that last sentence is especially true. thankfully I think Canadians have wisened up to that a little. The constant refrain of "at least we're better than America", in addition to having only so much replayability, rings hollow when no real progress is happening and your healthcare is getting gutted etc etc

 No.1108759

I mean I’m a WASP so it admittedly took me longer to accept it than others.

First went through a nihilist phase, figured every country has done bad shit so who cares. Took me a bit to mature out of that phase—that it’s no excuse for America’s actions.

 No.1108774

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>>1107562
As a Burger, I'll admit that it was kind of painful. I was sold on this idea that the United States was this uniquely free, uniquely egalitarian society founded by pure hearted, free spirited political geniuses who were almost entirely anomalous in world history and that the great wealth and prestige our nation had won for itself was the culmination of both their vision and our tireless commitment to liberty and democracy. Our armies out in the world were both defending our homeland somehow justified with some lesson we apparently learned in the two World Wars that conflicts would find their way here if we continued to ignore the world, and while we were there, we were making the world a safer, freer and generally more democratic place and essentially preventing the rise of a second Hitler. This was a country where all things were possible if you put your mind to it and the only difference between citizens was personal skill and commitment. It was the greatest country on earth and in all of history and you had won the mother of all lotteries to have been born an American, and it was our duty to both carry on that tradition in our own country and to bring that spirit to the rest of the world.

Obviously, that was bullshit from start to finish. It's quite a way to fall from being a privileged member of greatest political project in all human history that is constructing a shining new future for all to learning that, no, it's just an evil empire, none of the things you were led to believe was unique about your country are actually unique at all and there was, in fact, little to nothing even remotely good about it. The foreigners they sometimes parade around giving the US a tongue bath are basically the modern equivalent of Nazi collaborators and are lying through their teeth in exchange for a hefty paycheck and the hopes that your nation destroys their nation so they can become some kind of imperial viceroy or comprador robber baron. It's like being raised to believe you're an angel only to discover that you're a demon.

 No.1108799

>>1108774
I wonder to what extent the writers of ATLA had the US in mind when writing that scene. Maybe they were on some George Lucas shit.

 No.1108853

Did a high school essay on My Lai and American crimes in Vietnam in general.

 No.1108860

>>1107562
In kindergarden we were instructed to make a crayon drawing showing all freedoms unique to the united states. My parents didn't deem me old enough to use computers, so I just applied what I could find in the school library, and failed that assignment because all my assertions were either provably erroneous or not unique to the USA. So I kinda had my red-white-and-blue tinted glasses smashed in one swing.

 No.1108864


 No.1108870

I never was a patriotic nationalist even as a kid so it's not a big shock to me once I knew how bad it gets when it's bad just feeling helpless and frustrated.

 No.1108872

>>1108799
>>1108774
The Fire Nation is mostly a stand-in for imperialism in general than a specific allegory, but there are distinct elements that are a reference to the US, like in "The Headband" when Aang goes to the Fire Nation school. Even though the Fire Nation is more of a general example of empire, they knew they were making the show for an audience of US kids and that general themes would be applied to their specific real life context. It may be why they went to such unusual lengths to humanize the people of the villainous faction and to make a main character a defector from it.

 No.1108949

File: 1659840823500.jpg (288.72 KB, 1128x768, 1639764027037-3.jpg)

>>1107562
I think it was more of a snowball effect in that the more I learned about Americans and America the more I came to despise them. Eventually it turned less into a prejudice for Americans, which I'll admit I still have here and there, and more of an outright disgust for their government and how they treat their people both domestically and abroad.

I can't exactly pinpoint where I started to TRULY despise America, but I remember learning about the shit that they pulled in the UN in high school- be it bombing civillians in the hope of killing Gadaffi. I didn't have much sympathy to the man as I do now, but I remember thinking "good god, we let these animals be PERMANENT members on the UN".

But I think it was during 2016- Initially I was thinking Trump and Hillary would be good for the nation- in so far that whoever won was going to either piss off /pol/yps or the American libs who I despised. A sort of casual sort of moral nihilism- in that both Hillary and Trump were absolutely corrupt- albeit I'd admit to hating Hillary more due to her fuckery in Haiti, wheras Trump was just a buffoon.

But overtime as I started to read on more Marxist/Anarchist theory, and then looking at what the US did- there's a great sense of moral outrage when you learn about the governments they overthrew, the people they genocided, and how they brainwash their population and starve their citizens- all the while shouting that they believe in Freedom and Democracy. Don't even get me started on the Whitlam Dismissal.

It was just crime after crime after crime after crime- and nothing so much as an apology or form of reperation came. It honestly just played into my confirmation bias that I think Americans, their culture (with the exception of East Coasters, who I fucking adore), their government is the lowest of the low, the most backward, disgusting, misanthropic, moralistic, virtue signalling wankers I've ever had the mispleasure of dealing with. But there exists a contradiction in me that also has sympathy for them. Call it a meme, but I'd honestly want to set up a refugee program here in Australia and just have them move here. Just have them escape their hell-hole country, their hell-hole culture, and become better. Just have them learn that they're not the protagonists of an overarching narrative, but a larger cog in a greater machine.

 No.1108951

File: 1659840984573.jpg (170.29 KB, 615x644, 1653591101563.jpg)

>>1108774
>It's like being raised to believe you're an angel only to discover that you're a demon.
Fuck, man.

 No.1108967

File: 1659841637272.png (213.47 KB, 400x512, ClipboardImage.png)

>>1108951
Demons can still become good guys.

 No.1108988

>>1107562
I want it to fall quickly - the capitalist regime, in place of a socialist one.

 No.1109006

>>1107562
public school
3rd world
burgers would not understand
just now I have a way to prove it

 No.1109109

IDK, I don't even remember. I'm Mexican-American so I guess I always just felt a cloying sense of unease. Even now as an adult you constantly realize society isn't made for people like you because of the comments honkies make or people in general like to say. I guess it wasn't that big of a leap.

I remember reading a lot of NatGeo as a kid though and seeing op-eds on the shit popping off in the Middle East, and based on the shit I saw people say about Iraqi's online and what people said to me as a Mexibro you get set on a path real quick.

As I get older I really realize just how fucking much the USA has hated and still hates anyone non white though, it is honestly kind of depressing knowing I don't really belong to any country because at the end of the day I was raised in this shithole but I don't look like I'm "from here" and I have enough of my parents culture in me that I can't ever truly say I'm "American".

>>1108949
>hellhole culture/country
Vid related but replace Birmingham with USA

 No.1109118


 No.1109377

File: 1659868602389-0.png (764.02 KB, 1792x664, ClipboardImage.png)

File: 1659868602389-1.png (307.85 KB, 600x563, ClipboardImage.png)


 No.1109561

>>1107610
I was 10 when Bush waged war against Saddam so I didn't have a political consciousness back then, but I learned a few years later down the line that the "weapons of mass destruction" casus belli was complete bullshit. I remember thinking Americans were very dumb for re-electing Bush. That sealed the deal for me.
I have a lot of respect for Americans who can see through the propaganda and hold genuine consistent Marxist/anarchist views.

 No.1109587

>>1108548
fuck off let the other anon go off, we need more passionate people hating on america

 No.1109639

Probably by seeing 9/11 conspiracy theories on the internet when i was like 8. But even before i was told by family of the bad things the USA indirectly did to my country. I never in my life sympathized with burgerland

 No.1109961

>>1108860
I don't get it.

 No.1110007

when my best friend OD'ed back in High School, it made me challenge all the narrative of the states sold to us since childhood, and actually look around. How this place could ever be called "the land of the free" made no sense, how the richest nation on earth had broken cities like the one I was in. All of this power and we gotta live off food stamps, shots get heard every night, and all we had to show for being "citizens" was tens of thousands of dollars in medical bills.

made me look at the world

 No.1110103

>>1108547

Feel better anon: The floridan émigré cuban community is a vital resource for Cuban intelligence. Infiltrated up the ass with spies keeping an eye on us developments, generating money via front businesses, etc.

Its why the government let them leave to begin rather bricking walling or labour camping the lot of them.

 No.1111177

>>1110103
Its all very weird. With wet foot/dry foot over, it isn't going to be easy to just release the pressure valve like in years past. So now the island will have these discontented people who in the past would've just left. Many of them will anyways and try to make it illegally or through coyotes.

 No.1111212

I was overseas and i was pursuing some dreams of being a full time performer and making a good living off of it. But then America fucked Libya and Syria like that one whistleblower on democracy now said they would. i remembered that video as it happened and realised they would never stop.
It was utter despair for some years. I turned to drugs for a while because i knew that i would have to fight them at some point and things were never going to get better until we won. That was a pretty tough feeling to overcome. but i've gotten through it now. i'm ready to fight.

 No.1111219

>>1107562
i don't think the US is the "bad guy" since i'm not a moralistic liberal that bases my analysis on conceptions of personal domination and boomer-tier conspiracy theories of the naughty people colluding

 No.1111220

>>1111219
behold, the communist hipster

 No.1111231

>>1107562
>What was it like for you when you realized the USA is a "bad guy"?
It felt as though I could never be normal. The people had to know the truth, and I would sacrifice my own likeability in an effort to tell my peers what I figured out, like how I imagined others would if they cared for my well-being. But I was not an effective communicator, and telling people that the USA was not a force for good in the world, no matter how I said it, often was reacted to very harshly, and people would yell at me. So I stopped trying to make efforts at this, and tried only to practice abstention from the patriotic rituals, but this would, too, make me a target for harassment. Even my silent non-disruptive non-participation, was cause for the patriots to come after me.

 No.1111236

I was raised anti-american
t. eastern euro

 No.1111240

>>1111236
Literally me

 No.1111254

>>1107562
There were several stages for me. My first political experience were my initial attempts to not pledge allegiance to the flag. I think the original reason I did not want to pledge allegiance was because I didn't see why I should. I was tired in the mornings. I didn't want to engage in the monotonous morning ritual where we mindlessly repeated the same meaningless words. But the hostile reaction from the teacher was shocking to me, and this would start to get the wheels turning. Back then, I was a "learning delayed" student who had to take "speech class" because I did not give proper eye contact. It felt unnatural to me, but the same teacher believed I was being disrespectful to him. I think this was when I started to develop a distrust of authority. I was never a full-fledged anarchist, but I almost became one.

I think one of the biggest developments as a child was somehow stumbling across a graphic novel variant of A People's History of the United States. I read about the genocide perpetuated against the people of the Philippines by the United States.

 No.1111263

>>1107562
In my ex-AES country the right believes that the USA is a necessary evil, extreme right & communists believe they are an unnecessary evil (although the former have a Trump boner), and it's only the libs who think of the USA as an inevitable good.

 No.1111269

File: 1659980336803.png (207.29 KB, 474x248, ClipboardImage.png)

>>1107562
Uhh, probably The Iraq war. I was under 10 in the 90s. I can't really remember what I thought about The USA before that. Probably Obama is when I realized that there is no such thing as Democracy and there is no "good element" of the government that will ever counteract or reverse the "bad elements" of government. Also when I realized the supposed "good element" of government is nearly or totally just as bad as the "bad element" of government.

 No.1111287

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File: 1659981198356-1.png (2.36 MB, 1400x1447, ClipboardImage.png)

>>1111269
>Probably Obama is when I realized that there is no such thing as Democracy and there is no "good element" of the government that will ever counteract or reverse the "bad elements" of government. Also when I realized the supposed "good element" of government is nearly or totally just as bad as the "bad element" of government.
And I realized this when Obama came in after his whole sales pitch "I was against the Iraq war from the beginning, we're going to make America the good guys again!" Campaign and then he got into office and the first shit he said regarding prosecuting anyone in the Bush administration was "I want to look forwards not backwards." That's when I realized, oh, of course electoralism will never allow anyone to even mildly inconvenience the Skulls&Bones Good Boys Club that rules the country and always has. Of course America will never hold itself accountable in anyway or to actually make any reforms, because all it takes is declaring a "whoopsie daisey" and then all is forgiven.

>"Whoopsie daisey" I got 7000 American soldiers killed and 100ks of Muslims killed for no reason.

>Slap on the wrist? Bush is a sweet old man who paints pictures now. His wrists are weak and the slap would be inhumane.

Meanwhile when it comes to crimes of the average prole we are among the most mean-spirited vindictive punishers on the planet. If all the hypocrisy doesn't lead you to figure the game out, there's no hope for you. A rules based order for us, not for them.

 No.1111301

>>1111287
>capitalism is when elite are hypocrites

 No.1111307

>>1111301
>greentexting with a non-sequitr as a zinger

 No.1111308

American here.
Americans don't want freedom. They want conveniences.
Theyre control freaks when it comes to loss prevention.

 No.1111312

Like others it's been a gradual process of enhancing contempt for me. But in recent years I've been learning about the true history of the word "democracy", and how the Founding Fathers were almost all anti-democrats, and how several played a pivotal role in distorting and inverting the meaning of the word to the complete opposite of its original definition that stood for a couple millennia. The United States was founded on a fraud of global implications, an incredibly insidious piece of propaganda that has reverberated throughout the language hegemony of English and infected most other languages. As Marx remarked, the tradition of past generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living. The United States is the demon of modern history, and for true progress to be made it must not only be defeated as a military empire, but its demonic influence on interpretations of the present world must be exorcised from history.

 No.1111313

>>1111287
This has been going on in the US since forever. Think back to the Civil War.
>Whoopsie you just rebelled against the Union and tried to block the emancipation of human slaves? I guess we'll just pardon you all lol
Insane. Other countries would've just put them all to death and the issue would've been solved. The US loves "the high road" which allows for ugly elements to survive and feel emboldened to continue, even if underground for a time.

 No.1111316

File: 1659983017582.jpg (731.43 KB, 1080x1920, 1659978573379.jpg)

>>1111307
don't worry, i'm sure you'll save the proletariat from the illumin- oh i mean the bourgoisie

 No.1111318

>>1111313
So true. Reconstruction was a farce from the beginning. And the way it ended was almost as stupid and corrupt as the whole process.

Reconstruction literally ended as an electoral bid to gain votes. If president hayes promised to end reconstruction then Florida, Georgia and Louisiana would give their electoral votes to him in 1876. Which is exactly what happened and the last federal troops left the south because of that.

 No.1111328

>>1111254
>My first political experience were my initial attempts to not pledge allegiance to the flag. I think the original reason I did not want to pledge allegiance was because I didn't see why I should.
>I was tired in the mornings. I didn't want to engage in the monotonous morning ritual where we mindlessly repeated the same meaningless words.
You have no idea how relatable this is. I hated having to do this shit every morning, even in my american patriot phase.

 No.1111329

File: 1659983853218-0.png (662.14 KB, 600x579, ClipboardImage.png)

File: 1659983853218-1.png (3.66 MB, 1600x1226, ClipboardImage.png)

>>1111313
>Insane. Other countries would've just put them all to death and the issue would've been solved. The US loves "the high road" which allows for ugly elements to survive and feel emboldened to continue, even if underground for a time.
It's just a continuation of European feudal tradition "honor between gentlemen" aka nobility look out for nobility. Even while they are leading 100000s of their men to die fighting the other side, extreme mercy is always shown between the nobility because they know it's all a game, and they know that they could be on the losing side of the equation so they follow the golden rule between themselves.

>The next division, under the Philip, Duke of Orléans, also fled, though not so shamefully, but the rear, under King John II in person, fought with much gallantry. The prince, "who had the courage of a lion, took great delight that day in the fight".[46] The combat lasted until a little after 3 pm, and the French, who were utterly defeated, left eleven thousand dead on the field, of whom 2,426 were men of gentle birth. Nearly a hundred counts, barons, and bannerets and two thousand men-at-arms, besides many others, were made prisoners, and the king and his youngest son, Philip were among those who were taken. The English losses were not large.[46]


>When King John II was brought to him, the prince received him with respect, helped him to take off his armour, and entertained him and the greater part of the princes and barons who had been made prisoners at supper. He served at the king's table and would not sit down with him, declaring that "he was not worthy to sit at table with so great a king or so valiant a man",[46] and speaking many comfortable words to him, for which the French praised him highly.[47] The next day the Black Prince continued his retreat on Bordeaux; he marched warily, but no one ventured to attack him.[46]


>At Bordeaux, which Prince Edward reached on 2 October, he was received with much rejoicing, and he and his men tarried there through the winter and wasted in festivities the immense spoil they had gathered. On 23 March 1357 the prince concluded a two years' truce, for he wished to return home. The Gascon lords were unwilling that King John II should be carried off to England, and the prince gave them a hundred thousand crowns to silence their murmurs. He left the country under the government of four Gascon lords and arrived in England on 4 May, after a voyage of eleven days, landing at Plymouth.[48] When he entered London in triumph on 24 May, King John II, his prisoner, rode a fine white charger, while he was mounted on a little black hackney. Judged by modern ideas the prince's show of humility appears affected, and the Florentine chronicler remarks that the honour done to King John II must have increased the misery of the captive and magnified the glory of King Edward; but this comment argues a refinement of feeling which neither Englishmen nor Frenchmen of that day had probably attained.[49]


>King John surrendered by handing him his glove. That night King John dined in the red silk tent of his enemy. The Black Prince attended to him personally. He was then taken to Bordeaux, and from there to England. The Battle of Poitiers would be one of the major military disasters not just for France, but at any time during the Middle Ages.


>While negotiating a peace accord, John was at first held in the Savoy Palace, then at a variety of locations, including Windsor, Hertford, Somerton Castle in Lincolnshire, Berkhamsted Castle in Hertfordshire, and briefly at King John's Lodge, formerly known as Shortridges, in East Sussex. Eventually, John was taken to the Tower of London.


>As a prisoner of the English, John was granted royal privileges that permitted him to travel about and enjoy a regal lifestyle. At a time when law and order was breaking down in France and the government was having a hard time raising money for the defence of the realm, his account books during his captivity show that he was purchasing horses, pets, and clothes while maintaining an astrologer and a court band.


>The Treaty of Brétigny (drafted in May 1360) set his ransom at an astounding 3 million crowns, roughly two or three years worth of revenue for the French Crown, which was the largest national budget in Europe during that period. On 31 June 1360 John left the Tower of London and proceeded to Eltham Palace where Queen Philippa had prepared a great farewell entertainment. Passing the night at Dartford, he continued towards Dover, stopping at the Maison Dieu of St Mary at Ospringe, and paying homage at the shrine of St Thomas Becket at Canterbury on 4 July. He dined with the Black Prince—who had negotiated the Treaty of Brétigny[11]—at Dover Castle, and reached English-held Calais on 8 July.[12]


>Leaving his son Louis of Anjou in Calais as a replacement hostage, John was allowed to return to France to raise the funds. The Treaty of Brétigny was ratified in October 1360.


>On 1 July 1363, King John was informed that Louis had escaped. Troubled by the dishonour of this action, and the arrears in his ransom, John did something that shocked and dismayed his people: he announced that he would voluntarily return to captivity in England.[13] His council tried to dissuade him, but he persisted, citing reasons of "good faith and honour." He sailed for England that winter and left the impoverished citizens of France again without a king.


>John was greeted in London in 1364 with parades and feasts. A few months after his arrival, however, he fell ill with an unknown malady. He died at the Savoy Palace in April 1364. His body was returned to France, where he was interred in the royal chambers at Saint Denis Basilica.


<when you're a prisoner of war of your enemy you are currently at war with and they throw you parades at the same time.

 No.1111410

>>1111219
>>1111316
Get that New Left cia stooge horseshit out of here and remember to disinfect your armchair. The microbial fecal matter falling off your dress pants into the seat is probably starting to fement a bad smell

 No.1111416

>>1111410
>WAAAAAAAH WHY DO YOU READ INSTEAD OF ENGAGING IN PSEUDO-ACTIVISM AND LOOKING LIKE A CULT TO NORMIES
sorry the most careful scholarship has you butthurt. as you say it's all the fault of cultural marxi- er i mean the cia

 No.1111424

>>1111416
sorry if it makes you seethe being confronted truth about the subhuman actions of the country your "Scholars"(Shills of the regime wanting to be the MSM intellectuals) passes years trying to lawyer and apologize over.

 No.1111428

>>1111424
lol your conspiracy theories don't make me seethe. guess marx was also CIA since he was from the imperial core

 No.1111438

>>1111428
the same core he speaks against, yes, don't know where you getting this strawman of "YoU ClAim EvErYthIng iS CiA" when arguing about the main inspiration of Nazi germany.

 No.1111450

>>1111438
TIL marcuse inspired nazi germany

 No.1111482

>>1109961
I was super patriotic in kindergarden because a lot of the books they had on those shelves were written by rightoids to make kids think america was the greatest, so when those assumptions were challenged I realised the USA was not uniquely free compared to other nations, and was in fact unfree in many ways.

 No.1111680

>>1111416
I have read and will contine to read more than you, you crypto fucking nazi.

 No.1111945

>>1111680
lol so being an armchair is good when it's convenient to you. as usual MLs have no consistency and twist everything to suit their interests

 No.1111946

>>1111945
Nice projection left-Agent Kochinskiist.

 No.1111949

>>1111946
lol why am i the Agent Kochinskiite when stalinoids like you are the ones that think markets are compatible with socialism? MLs are just social democrats for the third world

 No.1111974

>>1111949
Literal hasan piker understanding of socialism

 No.1112114

>>1111974
better than being a stalinoid. "socialist commodity production" lmao

 No.1112206

>>1112114
and that is better and an improvement than the left-Agent Kochinskioid "socialism is when you do nothing"
you can cope but "Stalinoids" did more for building socialism than whatever failed ideologue wanting to be Zizek or Chomsky on the MSM tv you worship as the true communist way lmao.

 No.1112634

It happened around 2017, mostly due to Charlottesville. It finally shattered the liberal brain I grew up with, that stood for the pledge of allegiance religiously in class, and that had deepthroated all the BS about how "yeah slavery and indigenous genocide were bad, but those are all problems of the past, it's ok now!". I had slowly been shifting left economically but after that, I finally started to read up and hate what the US has done to the world over its history.

 No.1112824

>>1112206
>capitalism calling itself socialism is better than socialism
sure Agent Kochinskiite

 No.1112839

>>1112824
what socialism you made up that is better than the "stalinoid" socialism that you call capitalism.
Tulpas and HoI 4 games does not count.,

 No.1112848

>>1112839
here's the socialism i made up:
<Within the co-operative society based on common ownership of the means of production, the producers do not exchange their products; just as little does the labor employed on the products appear here as the value of these products, as a material quality possessed by them, since now, in contrast to capitalist society, individual labor no longer exists in an indirect fashion but directly as a component part of total labor.
>Tulpas and HoI 4 games does not count.,
lol projecting tankoid, it's your kind that larps as an eastern front ww2 soldier all day

 No.1112850

>>1107562
I'm a burger and I realized it when I was a kid during the Bush era when the War Of Terror began. I saw what the American ruling class was capable of, annihilating entire countries, shattering cultures, slaughtering hundreds of thousands and displacing millions just so rich old disgusting men can get richer. Then I dug deeper and discovered that this was American history in a nutshell

 No.1112853

>>1112848
This is gibberish

 No.1112863

all i did was grow up watching the same news as everyone else. i couldn't understand how everyone around me saw all the same shit i did and with each and every new event, shrug their shoulders in unison. i didn't even read a shred of leftist material until i was nearly 30 for gods sakes, but the travesties are clearly on display for all to see, i dont understand how there could be any difficulty in making the connections laid out right in front of your eyes your entire life.

 No.1112871

>>1112853
mask off moment for stalinoids

 No.1112880

>>1112848
Going back to my question that you ignored, where you made this happen in this world to show up against these ebil stalinoids making revolutions and actually engaging in building socialism?.

better yet how could make this happen in the real, not in the theoretic, just making a law ?, when the entire world is capitalist and want to smother you and you need resources to be on a position where they can't mess with you ? because the Real life socialism where never in a position of majority or advantage against capitalist world so they can look at what Marx and Engels wrote, make a ideological Supermarket shopping list and check everything out to be the "TrUe SoCiAliSm" writen by Marx.

>lol projecting tankoid, it's your kind that larps as an eastern front ww2 soldier all day

and that is Harmless against seething Left-Agent Kochinskioids (Anti-Socialists that cosplay as communists for liberal consumption of talking points against actual Socialism) hordes that larp as being the big communism builder where everyone kneels to their oh giant intellect that single-handedly owned everyone wrong with their socialism idealized without ever putting to the real where the proles, you know, don't give a fuck about commodity production as long their necessities are being satisfied, Peace land and bread after all.

 No.1112889

>>1112880
>WAAAAH WE COULDN'T ESTABLISH SOCIALISM BECAUSE CIA
every time. maybe don't call it socialism if you failed to establish it lol
>don't give a fuck about commodity production as long their necessities are being satisfied, Peace land and bread after all.
social democrat moment

 No.1112900

>>1112889
Can you write a short story with your fantasy socialist system, I like that sort of world building

 No.1112911

>>1112900
Once upon a time, people established socialism because they stopped making excuses. It was very difficult and required a lot from everyone, but eventually it happened. Private property, money, the state - all abolished. Commodity production? Replaced with a planned economy. From each according to his abilities to each according to his needs. And everyone lived happily ever after.

 No.1112923

>>1112911
Think I'll wait for the movie tbh

 No.1112948

>>1112889
>h-h-here is my attemp to diminish what you are talking about withnout engaging
>every time. maybe don't call it socialism if you failed to establish it lol
And we are dangerous enough that the entire capitalist world had to organize to overthrown us in every corner, goes to show who is the true danged to capital, not you political parasites .
also we gonna call whatever we want, after all, where is the "true socialism" made by the true communists to show we are wrong, but you know this will never happen, the USSR, Warsaw pact countries, DPRK, Cuba will always be in the world, both to capitalists and proles, actual socialism.
>social democrat moment
and Guess what, Sucdems are popular for a reason, principally in countries outside the Core, hell even in, FDR and all, why ?, because most of them improved the living conditions of the proles, and many mantain extreme popularity after leaving, even when, without exception, after they left the neoliberals came in and razed everything they did, because Social welfare in capitalism gets destroyed for money making always, you have to destroy capital for permanent Social-welfare.
No one is gonna do a revolution so they can live in shit situation after the revolution.

 No.1112996

>>1107845
no, you will

 No.1113006

>>1112114
you're right. the USSR should have never done socialist commodity production. They should have immediately severed all diplomatic and economic ties with the capitalist world after WW1. They should have allowed themselves to starve to death in a war torn nation that went through 3 wars in 2 decades (Russo-Japanese, WW1, Civil War) and they shouldn't have attempted to rapidly industrialize and modernize anything. They should have simply tried to collectively farm in a little hermit nation of their own making, totally isolated themselves on the world stage, and allowed themselves to get steamrolled by operation barbarossa.

Maybe when you grow up you'll understand that the Soviet Union did what it had to in order to survive and still managed to be superior to the capitalist and imperialist powers.

 No.1113019

>>1112948
>the working class likes social democrats so we should be social democrats
tankie mask off moment
>>1113006
>the USSR should have never done socialist commodity production.
well it's a little nonsensical to say they shouldn't have done something impossible
>They should have immediately severed all diplomatic and economic ties with the capitalist world after WW1. They should have allowed themselves to starve to death in a war torn nation that went through 3 wars in 2 decades (Russo-Japanese, WW1, Civil War) and they shouldn't have attempted to rapidly industrialize and modernize anything. They should have simply tried to collectively farm in a little hermit nation of their own making, totally isolated themselves on the world stage, and allowed themselves to get steamrolled by operation barbarossa.
TIL socialism is when you survive in the capitalist world economy
>Maybe when you grow up you'll understand that the Soviet Union did what it had to in order to survive and still managed to be superior to the capitalist and imperialist powers.
maybe when you grow up you'll read something other than furr and parenti

 No.1113025

>>1113019
Lower stage communism has commodity production…

 No.1113029

>>1113025
yeah that's why marx says it doesn't lmao. what are you going to pull out the birthmarks quote thinking it's defending commodity production?

 No.1113032

>>1113029
K kid go build it in burgerland plox

 No.1113038

>>1113019
Capitalism took centuries to replace feudalism and it had the benefit of happening entirely through the historical materialist process and not being "predicted" by anyone. Capitalism never had a Marx. The people who described it all described it AFTER it had emerged. So when early capitalists absolutely collaborated with the feudal aristocracy or even emerged out of the feudal aristocracy, there was nobody there to complain about how it wasn't "Real Capitalism" or how it didn't properly follow the itinerary of some ideological forefather. Yet when the first socialist experiment to occur on a national scale, the USSR emerged, it was immediately ruthlessly criticized. So be it. We will reap the benefits that come with digesting internalizing criticism. But not all criticism is built the same. There is the smart, justified criticism that genuinely understand the material conditions of past attempts and present an alternative path that is actually achievable, and can be further improved upon. Then there is the vapid criticism of the ultras, who support every revolution except the ones that succeed. You know you can critically support the USSR, right? It doesn't have t be "uncritical". Not everyone who appreciates the USSR is some brainwashed "stalinoid" caricature that you are conjuring up in your head. We are able to simultaneously realize that it wasn't perfect, but at the same time was worth preserving. We are able to realize that it wasn't literally what marx predicted word for word, but that Gorbachev and Yeltsin destroyed the closest thing we had.

 No.1113045

>>1111219
Why did you post this page? The page is basically talking about how the imperial core exports capital, but keeps the fruits of that exported capital for itself. i.e. the postcolonial understanding of imperialism, i.e. how the third world is kept underdeveloped and overexploited, contrary to the original theory of imperialism, which is that the first world would develop the third world to a level of competitive parity (this happened with the Japanese and some others in the 19th/20th centuries but is no longer the model).

I don't see how this page bolsters your point. The USA is the head of the imperial core, and the imperial core overexploits the third world while using sanctions and debt to keep the third world underdeveloped (so they don't become competitors later on). This is slow motion genocide, totally extractive, and in some subtle ways more brutal than the old imperialism where you took your wooden ships and cannons and forced open semi-feudal markets. Your point that the USA cannot be the "bad" guy because you think the world "bad" is a spook is pretty shallow. It is obvious that the USA is the unipolar source of the current world order's imperialism, and the destination of a lot of raw material extraction. It is the #1 enemy of present attempts to build socialism. It props up people like the Saudis, the Likud party, Bolsonar, etc. while pretending to somehow be "anti-authoritarian." Calling them the "bad guy" for all this is pretty obviously shorthand for who the enemy of socialism is rather than a belief in moral absolutism.

 No.1113059

Outside of USA, pretty much no one really sees this country as good, except a very interesting breed of people(some special critters, you might say).
If you actually are familiar with the right-wing opposition in middle-eastern countries, you instantly know that none of them ever hold USA accountable for anything, and furthermore, see this condemnation of USA as an act of resistance against the opposition, and acceptance of the state. This is, however, only true with right-wing oppositions(such as royalists, fascists, etc.)

 No.1113162

>>1113038
>state capitalism is the closest we had to socialism
sure dude i'll "critically support" the US too lmao
>>1113045
because leninoids like you reduce capitalism down to personal domination like the petty bourgois liberals you are. "just criticize capitalism the same way we did feudalism!" lol

 No.1113179

>>1113059
>Outside of USA, pretty much no one really sees this country as good
Yes but no. The culture is heavily influenced by hollywood and the us music industry and most people see the world from the USA pov because that's how they presented modern history to them.

 No.1113219

File: 1660084295210.jpg (144.34 KB, 2000x1000, amerimutt moment.jpg)

i guess i was never into burgerland ideology because i'm eastern european, so it was kinda like a gradual shift for me. when i fully got into lefty politics it really felt like the us was the great satan at this point, but over the years i've picked up on their crimes through breadtube and online shit like that. first i thought it was just a shithole with some war crimes, then i thought it was a shithole with a ton of blood on its hands

 No.1113224

>>1113179
Yeah but this representation I'd argue won't lead to actual support of the states, but rather just is amusement because of the spectacle USA is.

 No.1113263

File: 1660086239795.mp4 (Spoiler Image, 22.76 MB, 1920x1080, DanCrenshawTellsTheTRUTHab….mp4)

>>1113219
fellas is it communist to save the planet?

yes it is

 No.1113265

>>1113263
Eugene, what's the point of watermarking your videos if you don't have a YouTube channel?

 No.1113272

>>1113265
the youtube channel was deleted. these videos are from before then

 No.1113285

>>1113019
>maybe when you grow up you'll read something other than furr and parenti
lol I read Marx, Engels and Lenin long before reading anything by Parenti. Never read anything by Grover Furr.

 No.1113289

>>1113162
>sure dude i'll "critically support" the US too lmao
The USA was never even *trying* to be Socialist. That's the difference. I don't support the USA, but I critically support and learn from the example of the USSR, and generally lament its passing, because it meant millions of people were plunged into poverty by US-supported neoliberalization under Yeltsin.

>because leninoids like you reduce capitalism down to personal domination

I never said anything like this. Address what I actually said or shut the fuck up. Weird how your responses never contain actual quotes.

 No.1113382

File: 1660092955208.png (133.67 KB, 900x800, 1481228161671.png)

I was still a teenager so I can't entirely remember, but I was raised in a religious family and when I was a kid I was always asking why I was supposed to support a war if the bible said not to kill. I was never given any answer and it made me come to the conclusion that the US was doing wrong.

When I got into anarchism as a teenager (and eventually Marxism) I kept following that line of thinking even when I stopped being religious.

 No.1113400

File: 1660094047986.png (169.34 KB, 850x400, ClipboardImage.png)

>>1113382
I feel bad for people that were indoctrinated into religion by their family. Its one thing to not have commies grooming you but being raised by Christians must be the worst.

 No.1113401

When I was a kid back then living in Texas where the history school books lied about Mexico losing The Battle of the Alamo and calling black slaves "indentured servants". I don't trust anyone who calls individuals or groups "Tyrant(s)" since they're always the biggest bootlickers of the American status quo.

 No.1113404

>>1113400
I got out of it, but I pretend to be a Christian around my family just because I don't want to start any drama. Not being religious is the worst thing you can be to some of these people. Most of them (other than my succdem Dad) hate that I'm a Marxist, so I'm sure they'd hate even more if they knew I'm not religious.

 No.1113412

>>1113404
>but I pretend to be a Christian around my family just because I don't want to start any drama
Meanwhile theres my dad who refuses to even join in on prayers before we eat at family gatherings kek. This dude would even get into arguments with my agnostic mom
I think I can respect your approach more, no sense rocking the boat over ideology, we're not the vanguard here

 No.1113413

>>1107562
At birth. I was born hating Americans.

 No.1113464

I don't really know. I'm a white American but I never really grew up having much pride or believing much in America. I was a bit of cringe atheist in middle and thought the pledge was weird, all the constant "greatest country ever" talk when all I saw was the ugly mediocrity that is suburbia. It wasn't till I was about 16 when I started learning about all the shit we've done and continue to do around the world.

 No.1113517

>>1113289
>The USA was never even *trying* to be Socialist. That's the difference.
TIL declaring the law of value and commodity production in your country and insisting it's not a problem means you're trying to be socialist
>and generally lament its passing, because it meant millions of people were plunged into poverty by US-supported neoliberalization under Yeltsin.
so you're indistinguishable from berniebros who "lament" the passing of 60s social democratic welfare states. gotcha
>I never said anything like this.
your theory of imperialism does what i said. "waaah america bad" hey have you considered capitalism bad instead? but of course leninist "anti-imperialism" is more about justifying nationalism than any battle for the international proletariat. it's gotten to the point that many ML parties in the third world explicitly distance themselves from socialism as a program, it's always about fighting the big bad CIA
>Address what I actually said or shut the fuck up.
typical stalinoid tries to silence criticism. unfortunately you don't have a secret police to do the dirty work for you here, although the tankoid mods might
>>1113285
well you should have skipped that parenti since it seems it was enough to give you mindmelt

 No.1113686


 No.1113693

>>1113686
the MLs who scare off normies are probably the glowies

 No.1113695

>>1113693
The truth is non-negotiable

 No.1113699

File: 1660118372749.png (728.62 KB, 1014x650, man shall never fly.png)

>>1113517
i used to have your dogshit political instincts. When I was a liberal, I was accused of being a communist by conservatives. I looked into it, it seemed to make sense. I agreed with Marx as I read Marx. But then if I actually said to the conservatives "yes, I am the thing you say I am." They would say "that inevitably leads to soviet style repression." and so I was tricked into that foolish instinct of going around and saying that I was a communist but denouncing "stalinist repression" and "authoritarian governance" in order to win over the people who disagreed with me. It didn't work! I used to say I wanted exactly what karl marx described, an end to commodity production, an end to class society, an end to money, yada yada, and then when conservatives called me a "authoritarian communist stalinist" for wanting these things, and saying my ideas "inevitably lead to repression" I would rebuke them and say "that's not real communism! What i want is actual real communism." Turns out none of them were impressed or moved by that. Then I would be disgusted at the so called "tankies" for their "defense of authoritarian regimes". I found myself falling for the foolish liberal instinct of trying to appease my right flank while denouncing my left flank. Just as you are doing.

Then I learned that every AES country wanted to build exactly what I want, but that actually building what I want is a lot harder then it looks when you're 1 nation in a world surrounded by capitalists. and I learned that "global revolution" is a collective action problem. And I learned that every successful revolution has to be violently defended or it will be sabotaged by capitalists. Now, instead of attacking AES countries and denouncing their supporters, I try to learn from their mistakes. I suggest you do the same. If you want to bash "tankies" all day, go to reddit. You'll find thousands upon thousands of liberals who agree with you. If you want to whine about "red fascists" or "soviet imperialism" or whatever there are plenty of people to your right who would love to hear you say that. Just don't expect them to become communists because of it.

 No.1113700


 No.1113708

>>1113693
I used to be the "normie" and I used to say things like you, and then the MLs were able to convince me. They were able to convince me at nearly 30. When I was at my most materially comfortable, and had a steady job and career prospects. I wasn't some misguided teenager doing it for the larp, or some loser jealous of the rich. I became sincerely convinced not by theory, but by history, at the necessity of violently defending the gains of a revolution from external sabotage by imperialists and reactionaries. Go figure. You cannot defend gains with pacifistic liberalism. Look at the USA. All the progressive gains they made are being whittled away by reactionaries. Their most radical social democrat, Bernie Sanders, wants to raise corporate taxes to rates that are lower than they were under FDR. You cannot peacefully abolish commodity production overnight through reform. What's funny about the "tankie" bullshit is that it is the social democrats who threw Rosa into the canal. It is the liberals and conservatives who support drone strikes and coups. It is the reactionaries and fascists who carried out the most gruesome genocides. Then they fabricate lies about every single "regime" and leftish liberals and socdems obediently believe and repeat these reactionary lies. It is a constant uphill battle when your closest "allies" on the political spectrum are constantly believing lies told by the reactionaries and bashing people to their left for some vaguely defined "authoritarianism."

 No.1113710

>>1113693
>MLs are glowies
>MLs also are known for being against the west
>?????
anon are you ok

 No.1113713

File: 1660119434925-0.jpg (5.56 MB, 5000x3751, walled world.jpg)

>>1113517
>your theory of imperialism does what i said. "waaah america bad" hey have you considered capitalism bad instead?
i didn't pick america for personal reasons, but because it is the center of the capitalist imperial core in the current world order. It is America couping socialist countries, installing compradors, putting developing nations into debt with IMF loans, extracting natural resources, and imposing privatization, deregulation, austerity, and labor discipline. If America falls, and a different nation becomes the capitalist hegemon, I will criticize them just as ruthlessly as I currently criticize America. America is the global hub of imperialism and capitalism, as the world currently exists, just like the British Empire was in the 19th century.

 No.1113715

>>1107562
before i was a ML, i was learning about the horrors of the US. it's kinda becoming mainstream to talk about america being bad so it's been a steady build. reading theory and actually learning history, however, opened my eyes to the true horrors committed at the hands of the american empire

 No.1113716


 No.1113739

>>1113708
It's not a coincidence if pacifist revolutionist are praised and studied in capitalist schools.
If they did something against or harm in any way the capital, they would portrait them as satanist. There is nothing worse than going against the religion of white baby jesus, if you are not aware.

 No.1113986

>>1111212
>like that one whistleblower on democracy now said they would
link?

 No.1114032

I kind of learned it twice.
By the time 9/11 happened I was already wildly anti-American and I hated Bush and I was like 9. It was mostly just bizarro edgy stuff - like I thought it was bad how we nuked Japan, I had a basic understanding that we were wrong about 'nam and Korea… but a lot of this was angry kid contrarianism. So I thought 9/11 was great, and I fantasized about siding with whoever did it (and I imagined it was Japan finally getting revenge for Hiroshima), etc. There was an increasingly more nuanced anti-war side to it once Afghanistan and later Iraq were set up, but early on it was paired with this really incoherent anti-Americanism which would also be peppered with racism depending on how pissed off I was. There was a lot of "actually, the Pilgrims were cannibals and ate the Indians, Thanksgiving is a lie" type stuff in there as it went on.

Eventually I cooled way down by my mid teens, and I started to dismiss a lot of ideas which resembled the more extreme stuff I'd thought from 9-13. Then gradually, I realized I really didn't know what I was talking about - I was sort of reverting to "common knowledge" which was often misleading, and which frequently omitted details. I wasn't right about everything as an edgy pre-teen, but then that didn't actually make the conventional wisdom right either. The US has frequently been cartoonishly evil, and that didn't just end at some point. In not completely demonizing it, I had given it a bit too much credit because that was the easier thing to do. These days I don't have optimism for it, but then I don't really have optimism for anything else.

I don't know, it was slightly awkward I guess.

 No.1114180

>>1113699
>while denouncing my left flank. Just as you are doing.
lmao you're not to my left, it's your kind that always whines about me being an "ultra"
>Then I learned that every AES country wanted to build exactly what I want
maybe that's because you were, like you still are, an effective social democrat
>but that actually building what I want is a lot harder then it looks when you're 1 nation in a world surrounded by capitalists.
then why did papa stalin declare SOIC?
>and I learned that "global revolution" is a collective action problem. And I learned that every successful revolution has to be violently defended or it will be sabotaged by capitalists.
you learned these things only upon becoming a tankoid? damn
>Now, instead of attacking AES countries and denouncing their supporters, I try to learn from their mistakes.
lol these aren't mutually exclusive tankoid
>If you want to bash "tankies" all day, go to reddit.
no i think i'll stay here
>You'll find thousands upon thousands of liberals who agree with you.
TIL if liberals dislike something then that means ut's good. back to feudalism it is then!
>Just don't expect them to become communists because of it.
why, because your red social democracy is more palatable to liberals?
>>1113708
>then the MLs were able to convince me. They were able to convince me at nearly 30.
my condolences
>You cannot defend gains with pacifistic liberalism. Look at the USA. All the progressive gains they made are being whittled away by reactionaries. Their most radical social democrat, Bernie Sanders, wants to raise corporate taxes to rates that are lower than they were under FDR.
lol you literally just compared social democratic programs to your tankoid dream regime
>Rosa into the canal.
rosa is a liberal according to you though, since she was a critic ("attacker") of soviet authoritarianism
<When all this is eliminated, what really remains? In place of the representative bodies created by general, popular elections, Lenin and Trotsky have laid down the soviets as the only true representation of political life in the land as a whole, life in the soviets must also become more and more crippled. Without general elections, without unrestricted freedom of press and assembly, without a free struggle of opinion, life dies out in every public institution, becomes a mere semblance of life, in which only the bureaucracy remains as the active element. Public life gradually falls asleep, a few dozen party leaders of inexhaustible energy and boundless experience direct and rule. Among them, in reality only a dozen outstanding heads do the leading and an elite of the working class is invited from time to time to meetings where they are to applaud the speeches of the leaders, and to approve proposed resolutions unanimously – at bottom, then, a clique affair
>>1113710
as we all know, the CIA always makes it clear that they oppose the groups they're infiltrating so that they can be easily spotted. it couldn't possibly be that they pretend to be strawmen so that normies get scared off of radicalization
>>1113713
capitalism is when one country is a big bad meanie
>just like the British Empire was in the 19th century.
lmao you don't even know your own "theory", lenin happily declares that capitalism has totally changed bro trust me from marx's time into "monopoly capitalism" which results in imperialism as its "highest stage"
>>1113739
lenin was fine until 1921. i believe this because contra your assertions i don't see violence as bad, just authoritarian repression
>>1113715
MLs don't read theory

 No.1114270

>>1114180
>rosa is a liberal according to you though, since she was a critic ("attacker") of soviet authoritarianism
i already said once in this thread that critical support is OK. what you are doing though is not critical support. Rosa and Lenin were friends. She was trying to carry out something similar to the October revolution in Germany when she was killed. In fact, Lenin's plans hinged on her revolution being successful. Socialism in One Country was the result of the pan-European revolution failing. Socialism in One Country was not a flagrant right-deviation, but a change of plans resulting from Rosa's murder. The material conditions changed, and so they had to handle the situation differently. I don't fault them for that.
>lmao you're not to my left, it's your kind that always whines about me being an "ultra"
You've been going to bat for the United States in this thread and shitting on the grave of one of the few actually existing alternatives we ever had.
>maybe that's because you were, like you still are, an effective social democrat
I thought I was a "stalinoid" "tankie". Now I'm Bernie Sanders? Weird pivot!
>then why did papa stalin declare SOIC?
because the international revolution failed. Stalin "declared" socialism in one country because it was the actual situation. Socialist revolution only succeeded in one country at that time. The Chinese had not yet won their civil war and Rosa's attempt in Germany was foiled by the Freikorps. The infant USSR had to roll with what they got: a country with no allies that had just went through 3 wars.
>lol these aren't mutually exclusive tankoid
Yeah but you aren't trying to learn from their mistakes, because you can't distinguish between what the conditions imposed from the outside and what the conditions imposed from the inside were. You look at the actual consequences of WW1 WW2 and capitalist imperialism and think "the soviets did that to themselves" and then you look at their best attempts to roll with that reality and build it into something better and merely spit on it without saying realistically what they could have done instead. You wish they had been genies who could simply magic an end to the commodity form without any sort of international support.
>TIL if liberals dislike something then that means ut's good. back to feudalism it is then!
the point has gone over your head again
>red social democracy
lol at least you aren't invoking "red fascism"

 No.1114395

>>1114270
>i already said once in this thread that critical support is OK.
this is an empty platitude, you construe all criticism as "attacks" when it comes from someone who isn't part of your canon. interesting that you conveniently ignore i said that lenin was fine until 1921 (after rosa's quote, not that ml illiterates like you know). he was theoretically pretty bad sometimes but i'm mostly okay with his policies until then
>You've been going to bat for the United States in this thread
guess when you say capitalism isn't some giant conspiracy by the CIA thayt means you're defending the CIA, in the eyes of tankoids. whatever, anyone who wants to cling to that isn't meaningfully anticapitalist anyway
>shitting on the grave of one of the few actually existing alternatives we ever had.
didn't happen
>Stalin "declared" socialism in one country because it was the actual situation.
as usual MLs mistake "material conditions" with "magic" so if something goes wrong they can just diregard all of marx's writings and build socialism anyway. lol
>I thought I was a "stalinoid" "tankie". Now I'm Bernie Sanders?
i mean yeah it's the same thing
>You wish they had been genies who could simply magic an end to the commodity form without any sort of international support.
nice projection, i actually wrote the above sentence before reading this lmao
>the point has gone over your head again
"you're wrong trust me" vanguardist moment
>lol at least you aren't invoking "red fascism"
social democracy is the left-wing of fascism

 No.1114462

>>1114395
> capitalism isn't some giant conspiracy by the CIA
I'm not the same anon who started arguing with you over your book screenshot calling it "New Left CIA" or whatever. Though I will say I am generally pretty suspicious of people who dismiss what the CIA admits to doing as "conspiracy theories" especially when they do it on behalf of Capital anyway. The coup against Jacobo Arbenz, for instance, occurred because CIA Director Allen Dulles had stock in United Fruit, and he viewed the redistribution of unused, undeveloped, United Fruit lands (which UF wasn't even paying property taxes on) as an attack on Capitalism. Turns out the imperial hegemon speaks for Capital. Again, people don't bring up the USA for no reason. It's not like they've lost the plot and forgotten capitalism is the enemy. It's just that the USA is the national avatar of imperial capital until further notice.

 No.1114477

File: 1660166639461.png (130.68 KB, 384x836, ClipboardImage.png)

>>1114395

>as usual MLs mistake "material conditions" with "magic" so if something goes wrong they can just diregard all of marx's writings and build socialism anyway. lol



<be USSR

<have socialist revolution
<socialist revolutions in other countries around the same time fail (Germany)
<Stalin: I guess we have socialism in one country for now
<You: Magical thinking! You're not socialist unless you completely abolish commodity production overnight while surrounded by capitalists trying to overthrow your nascent government! Why hasn't the state withered away yet! Why isn't everything going exactly according to Marx!

Marx excelled in describing capitalism and critiquing capitalism. His masterpiece is a critique of political economy. He did not really provide much more than a vague outline for how socialism would come about, and that only has so much predictive power in the Material World which you are ironically dismissing as "magical". Absurd.

Look at the list of belligerents in pic related and tell me the soviets could have just done whatever they wanted with no repercussions.

 No.1114526

>>1114477
>You're not socialist unless you completely abolish commodity production
correct
>Marx excelled in describing capitalism and critiquing capitalism.
which is why it can be applied to the ussr
>>1114462
>It's not like they've lost the plot and forgotten capitalism is the enemy.
could have fooled me
>It's just that the USA is the national avatar of imperial capital until further notice.
TIL only 1 country per time can do an imperialism and capitalism is when there's a conspiracy among the secret police of the world hegemon (which is not always the US, trust me, that's why this board and MLs in general fixate on destroying the US whereas abolishing value has relatively little mention if at all, because we totally just want to abolish value and aren't just cranky teens who may or may not be in adult bodies rebelling against our patriotic parents)

 No.1114536

>>1114526
>TIL only 1 country per time can do an imperialism and capitalism
not what I said. Learn what a hegemon is.

 No.1114542

File: 1660168370080.png (338.25 KB, 768x514, parenti quote.png)

>>1114526
>You're not socialist unless you completely abolish commodity production
You confuse socialism the ideal with socialism the ideology. A person can be ideologically and materially dedicated to bringing about socialism. The USSR was a country governmed by a socialist party that, at least up until a point, was dedicated to bringing about socialism. If you have to succeed in abolishing commodity production to be socialist, then I guess you aren't socialist either because you haven't personally abolished commodity production. That's the level of semantics you're bringing to this. You're basically saying "those people who actually fought and died to bring about socialism weren't actually socialists because they failed to abolish commodity production." This is why pic related applies to you.
>which is why it can be applied to the ussr
you're not simply applying marx to the USSR, you're asking why they didn't do something that was impossible under their material conditions, you know, the thing you think is magic but is the opposite.
>could have fooled me
you fooled yourself

 No.1114574

I used to think America was really bad but now I think it's not that bad since it's just acting in the interests of its ruling class like every other country. The only difference is that America is more powerful than most.

 No.1114576

>>1114574
that means your retarded

 No.1114579

File: 1660169790701.png (112.25 KB, 600x800, 16432628281160.png)

>>1114576
No it means I is more intelligent than you

 No.1114686

File: 1660176574009.mp4 (31.19 MB, 1280x720, nuremburg.mp4)


 No.1114727

File: 1660179809505.gif (367.03 KB, 500x227, eyeroll.gif)

>>1114395
>social democracy is the left-wing of fascism
quoting stalin while calling others stalinoid. how droll.

 No.1114789

>>1114576
no it means they're meaningfully anticapitalist

 No.1114793

>>1114789
shut up fat

 No.1114804

>>1114542
>You confuse socialism the ideal with socialism the ideology.
no that's what stalinoids like you do, since lenin only ever called the USSR socialism in the latter sense whereas stalin called it socialism in both senses
>This is why pic related applies to you.
lol parenti
>you fooled yourself
which is why on here and even moreso in irl ML orgs you never hear about value abolition instead it's just the US is so bad we need to institute totally-not-right-wing nationalism as le anti-imperialism in our country and pretend that's socialism
>>1114793
sorry you got attracted to socialism by something that has nothing to do with socialism

 No.1114808

>>1114536
i know what a hegemon is, unlike you, since i've actually studied realist IR theory. here's a hint: it isn't when one country and those countries under its hegemony CIA coup everyone else. nor is capitalism limited to the world hegemon, nor can there only be one world hegemon (in fact during the cold war there were two, both equally capitalist)


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