(Not my cell that organised it, it's a faction of our org, also I'm wasted af rn but it'd be fun to see you irl or hear your guys input online since it's in my hometown and it's super.intereysing
.Tim platenkamp has written an book on economic planning that was positively reviewed by the big Cock himself so its bound to be interesting.
>>1466599>Tim platenkamp has written an book on economic planning that was positively reviewed by the big Cock himself so its bound to be interesting
drop the pdf here if you have a copy
Who has some /cybernetic/ approved music to study to
Dreampunk, the ambient offshoot of vaporwave that replaces sample-heavy repetition and nostalgia with futuristic soundscapes which will make you feel like you're tripping in a communist megacity ca 2070.
>2814 : Rain Templehttps://youtu.be/7eRf__n7VPg
Hands down my favorite genre and best thing to happen to music culture in the last two-to-three decades.
"the whole [dreampunk] vibe is certainly fluid enough to encompass lots of different musical styles, while still retaining certain elements that make the label stand out as a whole—surreality, futurism, heavy concepts and story-driven projects, while vaporwave as a term and an idea has become something of a burden to everyone involved with it."
https://www.härdin.se/blog/2023/05/21/quantifying-autonomy-in-planning/<What I mean by autonomy in this post is the extent to which each workplace can govern itself without threatening the feasibility of the system as a whole. The less constrained each workplace is the more "free" the workers in that workplace are likely to be. The more orthogonal its actions can be to the rest of the economy, the freeër it is. But at the same time, no workplace is an island.
Literally orthogonal in the geometric represenation.
Anyone ITT know which communist org Härdin is a part of in Sweden?
Thoughts about ogasdemo.ru?
never heard of it can you TLDR
2814 is quite a based artist
you can look at the website and also read >>1408478
I'm asking because I saw someone mention he being organized in some thread on here
I'm swedish and sympathetic so I really would appreciate it
Cibcom published an article in Cosmonaut on economic planning, urban planning and women's liberation from housework:https://cosmonautmag.com/2023/05/socializing-care-against-domestic-realism/>>1482555
have you tried contacting him directly?
They mention this from TANS:>In chapter 12, entitled “The Commune,” they argue that cyber-socialism and feminism could converge in the revolutionary struggle because of the possibilities that the planned economy offers for the massive proliferation of urban communes.
Those who went through TANS in German (Alternativen aus dem Rechner) might be surprised by this because that version did not contain the chapter on communes!
You can download the missing chapter from the translator's website:https://helmutdunkhase.homepage.t-online.de/
Paul was a Maoist in his younger years, right?
Has Cockshott been translated into korean?
is the DPRK implementing something similar ?.
Good. That chapter sucks ass
DPRK has the most centralized planned economy compared to any country today. Due to lack of information I am not sure which technologies they use for planning. But I have hope that as we a species move into future, more technologies for easing planning of economy will keep emerging and DPRK will adopt them at some point. Also their neighbor PRC is making rapid advancements in technologies including most advanced supercomputers. DPRK might also buy from the in the future.>>1487360
I don't think it has been translated yet. But the scholars of DPRK who can understand English well could inspire or advise the leadership.
Enough of your theories!
Post any real-life, present-day case studies of cybersoc.
Have been thinking about how to use demand data to adjust produced quantities with price adjustments as fallback if the quantity adjustment isn't quick enough (also taking into account buffer stock, e. g. a small and durable product does not need to change price much). I don't actually think that a fully automatic adjustment mechanism is a good idea. There is no general rule about how much demand quantity changes with a change in price, only the direction of change, and even that is only a rule of thumb: If people take price increasing as an omen that the price will continue to rise, they may react by demanding more. They will also likely demand more despite the price increase if there are similar items that have a more extreme price increase.
I have in mind a combination of some algorithm and voting to come up with the quantities and prices. Since the algorithm does not determine everything alone it can be kept very simple and transparent (open source and open data are not a cure-all since AI networks are often practically intractable even for experts). The idea is that the algorithm does not give a point on the quantity line and on the price line, but ranges. Workers vote locally to choose within the range. They can go beyond the range by escalating and involving more people with several escalation levels based on how much they differ from the algorithm's rec.
What if the rule is that getting X % out of the range always requires escalation level such and such? Such a rule might be too rigid, resulting in some situations that demand an impossible amount of meetings, so I figure why not use a flexible rule here that increases the threshold for escalation based on a limit on the quantity of these meetings.
why>voting on prices
oh god no
I mean you can have prices diverge from values if you want. that is largely (if not entirely) a political decision. one example is health care. nothing says healthcare in a socialist economy should be free, but people would likely prefer that its costs be socialized. but that is rather different from the temptation to fiddle with prices. the Soviet experience shows that the latter is dangerous, in the extreme resulting in events like Novocherkassk
how is it done currently
? these algorithms probably already exist, the problem I think is that you are assuming that there needs to be an universal algorithm that works for all products in all conditions and only needs this particular dataset to work. why not have multiple algorithms? what if some of the algorithms were just "the store manager guesses a new price based objective constraints and previous experiences"? it sounds ugly but that's how small businesses work under capitalism
central planning doesn't mean that you have an algorithm for everything. the idea that an "AI" will be capable of planning the economy in any meaningful capacity in the near future is also wrong and stupid. the science of economic planning is yet, and for the foreseeable future, in it's infancy. to use TANS terminology, even "detailed planning" is extremely abstract and high level. if you only knew how shit and inefficient all point resolver algorithms are
to put it in simple terms, planning (as currently imagined) wouldn't replace CEOs but shareholders and investment banks
>>1489553>nothing says healthcare in a socialist economy should be free, but people would likely prefer that its costs be socialized.
Different issue. The issue talked about is prices diverging as a short-term measure to deal with supply gluts and shortages (before produced quantities are adjusted).>Novocherkassk
Different issue (planning with wrong estimates of caloric requirements).
>>1489862>Different issue (planning with wrong estimates of caloric requirements).
no it was a direct result of trying to increase meat prices to their value. there are only three possibilities:>prices = values>prices > values (rent)>prices < values (subsidy)
>>1489856>the problem I think is that you are assuming that there needs to be an universal algorithm that works for all products in all conditions and only needs this particular dataset to work. why not have multiple algorithms?
The different groups voting are the multiple algorithms.>>1489997
I can't make sense of what your position is supposed to be. Wouldn't keeping prices below value as a long-term policy an example of fiddling with prices? So wouldn't stopping this subsidizing be a good thing from your point of view? And you (I assume >>1489553
is also you) say that socializing costs and fiddling with prices are "rather different" issues, but it's clear to me that permanently pushing the price of a good or service below value is a partial socializing of costs. And I read (don't remember source atm) that Soviet planners had wrong estimates about caloric requirements in the region because their model had a too high percentage of office workers who of course usually burn fewer calories. You try to argue against more directly involving the masses in the planning of prices and quantities and your example is bureaucrats fucking up things.
Soviet planning a shit. they don't start with the actual demand for things, partly because they didn't have the technology to measure it
if you are to fiddle with prices, making them different from values, then you open up a whole slew of questions. if workers making things receive piece wages, should they be paid for the value of the things produced or the price of them? in the USSR kolkhozniks were paid for the price of the things they produced. this means that when prices were too low production of said things was disincentivized. on the other hand raising prices too high often resulted in protests. as soon as start fiddling with prices you transition from the realm of the technical to the realm of the political. when price = value then that is that. the price is the result of material circumstances, and no politician or bureaucrat is to blame
with hourly wages this is less of an issue. still, SNLT in the system has to be accounted for>I can't make sense of what your position is supposed to be
I'm sorry if you want a straight yes or no answer but that's not really what Marxism is about
>>1490533>if you are to fiddle with prices, making them different from values, then you open up a whole slew of questions. if workers making things receive piece wages, should they be paid for the value of the things produced or the price of them?
Neither. The standard should be effort one can reasonable expect. You can't use concrete individual time because that makes slacking attractive. You can't use output directly since technology is not the same throughout the system, so some workers in the same industry have better tools at hand than others. You have to judge the performance of a person relative to the tools available to that person. Also, obviously you can't set the same standard for a disabled person. (I don't see how fiddling with product prices opens some metaphorical box with the question you ask here. The question is there either way.)>as soon as start fiddling with prices you transition from the realm of the technical to the realm of the political. when price = value then that is that. the price is the result of material circumstances, and no politician or bureaucrat is to blame
There is no escaping politics. When prices are rigidly cost-based, you will have to address the gluts and shortages by more convoluted means. Regulation of noise, pollution etc. is politics setting which production recipes are even allowed and so politics strongly influences what the Technologically Objective Non-Political Cost Price(TM)
>>1490560>You can't use concrete individual time because that makes slacking attractive
this is why I mention piece wages, even if they are not the only way, partly due the technological mix as you mention. hourly wages are another method, but then you need some method to discipline the labour power. or some combination of hourly and piece wages. these are question separate from pricing, since wages make up the cost (value) and not necessarily the price of the thing>There is no escaping politics
true. still, the Soviet experience shows us the danger of letting humans get their disgusting hands on questions like pricing
another thing strikes me: even if healthcare is socialized, that doesn't mean that all costs associated with it would be. for example alcohol causes added costs for the healthcare system. these costs could be added to the value of the alcohol. with other issues such as obesity it is less clear on which goods these costs should be added, and it makes more sense to levy a fat tax
>>1490614>muh bad soviet prices, part 11483494382
Novocherkassk happened because of wrong data about caloric requirements. It would have happened with other prices. It would have happened with direct rationing.>>1490632
The world will live like in Star Trek just because of all the taxes your mom will pay.
Wouldn't people misuse the low cost of goods under socialist system to buy in large quantity locally at cheap rates, sell overseas at high rates and repeat the process leading to shortage of goods for people who need it ?
Well I would presume selling large quantities of goods abroad would be banned.
Okay but what about tourists with huge buying power for example who stay in the country ? They can hoard a lot
Tourists would have to buy labour vouchers at a fair exchange rate so that they couldn't overuse the system. Or maybe tourists would only be allowed to buy say ice cream and not home appliances.
What combination of regulations would lead to this? I guess the following:
1. The product is by default priced under value as deliberate policy (as has been common with staple foods).
2. There is no per-person limit when buying the product.
3. The price of the product does not rise in reaction to demand exceeding supply.
Regulation settings 1 & 3 are not part of the default in TANS. For things and services lifted out of the voucher consumption system, certainly you could start tracking who (usually citizens only) requests how much long before the supply issue becomes a big problem.
export is a production unit same as any other. if resources can be had for less labour through trade then trade should be done
a socializing economy could apply rent to the goods produced. this rent is a net-zero cost for workers in the system, since this rent ultimately flows back to them. to outside speculators it means goods would be had dearly. care should be taken that this rent is not provided to goods imported, and that it is not so high as to discourage trade entirely when such trade is beneficial. this is of course protectionism, but functioning better than in bourgeois society because it benefits workers instead of porkies
in addition to the explicit rent described above, all economies have certain goods through which they can extract differential rent. this should always be done
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