[ home / rules / faq ] [ overboard / sfw / alt ] [ leftypol / siberia / hobby / tech / edu / games / anime / music / draw / AKM ] [ meta / roulette ] [ cytube / git ] [ GET / ref / marx / booru / zine ]

/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internet about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
Name
Options
Subject
Comment
Flag
File
Embed
Password (For file deletion.)
Join our Matrix Chat <=> IRC: #leftypol on Rizon
leftypol archives
[ Return / Go to bottom ]

File: 1678813060619.gif (1.14 MB, 498x373, sailor-moon.gif)

 No.1399083[View All]

Thread for the discussion of Modern Monetary Theory and Post-Keynesian Economics

## FAQ

Q: What is Modern Monetary Theory
A: MMT is a macroeconomic theory that explains how modern monetary systems work, and argues that governments with sovereign, fiat currencies can never run out of money. It also argues that deficits are not inherently bad, and that government spending can be used to achieve full employment and other public goods.

Q: What is Post-Keynesian Economics?
A: Post-Keynesian Economics is a school of economic thought that is critical of mainstream, neoclassical economics. It builds on the ideas of John Maynard Keynes and argues that the economy is inherently unstable, and that government intervention is necessary to stabilize it. It challenges the beliefs of neoclassical economics that markets are rational and self-regulating, and attempts to bring back sanity (empiricism) into a discourse that has become voodoo

Q: Why should I as a leftist care about these things?
A: Two reasons. Firstly, it undermines the right-wing narrative of barter economics as the historical basis for economics, whereas in fact the state has always been the monopoly issuer of goods. Secondly, governments and politicians are constantly attempting to gaslight the populace that we cannot 'afford' certain things, and we have some of the most economically illiterate people on the planet running the economy.

Q: But it's not SOCIALIST
A: Look, it's just a description of how the economy as it is currently works, not prescriptive. There are plenty radical leftists who believe in these ideas, it can enrich discourse. Just think of it as another tool in your toolbox when it comes to debunking right wing nonsense.



## Helpful Resources

The Lectures of Steve Keen - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLtrHkFxMLfxz6qkxRghK4m5U-wDsenhKz

The MMT Podcast - https://www.youtube.com/@mmtpodcastwithpatriciapino1218

John Harvey on the Economics of Michal Kalecki - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73gWjTXd-ts

Paul Cockshott (ugh) on the Accumulation Cycle of Capitalism - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp9ClsIywdo

I've specifically chosen not to link books but instead lectures since I know you boys have zero attention span :)
79 posts and 2 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.1400648

>>1400636
fuck off the thread already you're like 14 you shouldn't be on the internet anyway

 No.1400656

>>1400587
indeed japan is state socialist.

 No.1400661

>>1400657
It's clear that your massive illiterate ego is more important to you than the quality of discussion on the board. Shame on you.

 No.1400668

>>1400661
do you actually have any examples sabo, or is this one big cope.

 No.1400672

>Great thread
>gets utterly derailed
every time

 No.1400674

>>1400672
just accept it at this point

 No.1400682

File: 1678915675236-0.pdf (3.35 MB, 180x255, L. Randall Wray - Modern M….pdf)

File: 1678915675236-1.pdf (3.27 MB, 197x255, William Mitchell, L. Randa….pdf)

Hey OP what book would you recommend starting with? These 2 textbooks are popular but there might be something easier out there.

 No.1400758

>>1400668
for you, sure. I just don't see a point in talking to the other guy because he's clearly acting in bad faith

>>1400587
"MMT is state socialist"
>>1400599
"How is it, it's describing capitalism"
>>1400615
"no it's not just a description, we already discussed it"

here's that "other discussion"

>>1399420
other anon calls him a dunce (we'll get to why in a moment)
>>1399423
"why am i a dunce"
>>1399433
"do you actually know what you are talking about?"
>>1399442
"no, why does that matter?"

and here's the previous convo that led to that anon calling him a dunce

>>1399267
"MMT is just government doing stuff" (him)
>>1399274
"It's just a theory about how the current monetary system works, the political corollaries are up to you"
>>1399276
posts a wiki link and then says it's apolitical (which is somethign I never claimed btw)
>>1399283
>im not saying its apolitical
>>1399286
"so how can it just be a theory of how it works?" (doesnt understand difference between political and prescriptive)
>>1399283
>IM NOT SAYING ITS APOLITICAL
>>1399334
"so how is it just a descriptive theory if its not apolitical?"
>>1399289
"It's a descriptive theory about how the monetary system works. It has political ramifications. But it itself is not prescriptive. What's hard to understand about this?"
>>1399334
"nooo its not apolitical, its prescriptive!!!, it says the government should do stuff!" (it doesnt)
>>1399362
>IM NOT SAYING ITS APOLITICAL IM SAYING ITS A DESCRIPTIVE THEORY ABOUT HOW THINGS WORK
>>1399368
"you're wrong its political"
>>1399371


>it has political ramifications
>it has political ramifications
>it has political ramifications
>it has political ramifications
>it has political ramifications
>it has political ramifications
>it has political ramifications
>it has political ramifications
>>1399376
"MMT is not descriptive, it's in fact government doing market socialism+ stuff"
>>1399398
another anon points out this guy is an idiot

and then he laughably responds
>>1399414
"thats false also crypto is money"

it's stupid that I have to convince you that he's trolling when you can just read the thread.

 No.1400759

>>1400682
I think edgar has a great intro to post-keynesian econ

 No.1400761

>>1400758
actual examples, good

 No.1400786

>>1400761
you could have just scrolled it was a waste of my time to give you these. idk it feels like you people are more interested in internet drama sometimes than the OP which im trying to get rid of that guy so we can actually go back to talking about econ

 No.1400787

>>1400786
this is the shitty thing about imageboards. a good thing can be happening and then be utterly derailed by one illiterate moid

 No.1400791

>>1400786
>idk it feels like you people are more interested in internet drama sometimes
that\s all the site has degenerated to since bunkerchan burned down.

 No.1400802

>>1400791
well it was like that in the old leftypol days too on 8chan, i remember there was a TONNE of drama around e-personalities

 No.1400830

File: 1678928686415.png (883.52 KB, 1434x2619, ClipboardImage.png)


 No.1400832

Modern Money Theory (MMT) economists acknowledge a number of empirical and institutional limitations on the applicability of MMT to macroeconomic policy, but they have not attempted to explore these empirically nor have they adequately addressed their implications for MMT’s main macroeconomic policy proposals. This paper identifies some of these important limitations, including those stemming from modern international financial markets, and argues that they are much more binding on the policy applicability of MMT than many of MMT’s advocates appear to recognize. To address these limitations, MMT analysts would have to enter the messy institutional, policy and empirical realms that undermine their simplistic policy conclusions that might be appealing to some policy-oriented followers of MMT. My conclusion is that, in light of these limitations, MMT’s major macroeconomic policy suggestions are of little practical relevance today for progressive politicians and activists, much less to macroeconomic policy formulation in general.

https://peri.umass.edu/economists/gerald-epstein/item/1159-the-institutional-empirical-and-policy-limits-of-modern-money-theory

 No.1401060

MMT died without even getting pushed into the mainstream, lmao

 No.1401085

Neoclassical economists resisted MMT because it reveals the social origin and possibilities of money. When you realize money is created by the government, then you will demand that money is used for the greater good.

MMT was founded by Warren Mosler and Bill Mitchell. The ideas in MMT are not new, but the packaging is. Bill Mitchell is hardcore Marxist and he brings up Marx in his blog all the time. He has to turn down his power levels to get published in academia.

https://billmitchell.org/blog/?p=15854

>>1400251

Marx and MMT have different definitions of money. To Marx, money is what you can use to purchase abstract labor. To MMT, money is debt. What that money is, whether gold or fiat currency, is irrelevant to Marx's theories. He was writing in the gold standard, so of course that's how he worded his theories.

This article goes into more detail. This website has lots on Marx and MMT.
http://heteconomist.com/money-in-marx-and-mmt-and-social-implications/

 No.1401158

>>1401085
this is true- I think MMT, Post-Keynesianism and Marx are complementary rather than opposed (at the basic level, of course there are some fundamental disagreements and specific disagreements but I feel as though a lot of the disagreements between the two especially pertaining to 'value theories' and the 'nature of money' are a lot of hot air.

 No.1401163

>>1401158
In the same way, you can absolutely agree with an Austrian that the value of a good to an individual may be subjective but that doesn't change the historical material facts of how that value came to be, which is something they ignore entirely in their analyses (and often get completely wrong what with their ahistorical beliefs about the anthropological origins of money).

 No.1401168

>>1400832
thanks for the contribution, im compiling these resources into a group and I'll read them later.

Maybe we can create some kind of master-doc of resources on PK and MMT (both for and against, from a leftist perspective)

 No.1404157

File: 1679197244582-0.pdf (64.02 KB, 197x255, Keynes-1930-Economic-possi….pdf)

File: 1679197244582-1.pdf (1.86 MB, 197x255, The Entrepreneurial State ….pdf)

File: 1679197244582-2.pdf (5.85 MB, 197x255, Trade Wars Are Class Wars_….pdf)

File: 1679197244582-3.pdf (93.96 KB, 170x255, Benanav-Aaron-2020-World-A….pdf)

File: 1679197244582-4.pdf (8.61 MB, 170x255, Isabella M. Weber - How Ch….pdf)

bumping with some PDFs

 No.1404167

checking into this thread

>>1404157
i see the succdems have arrived

Are you unironically posting Keynes' "Economic Possibilities for our Grandchildren"?

you realize he got a ton of shit wrong, right? Like where he claims capitalism and productivity will rise so high that people will only have 15 hour workweeks (lol)

>The strenuous purposeful money-makers may carry all of us along with them into the lap of economic abundance. But it will be those peoples, who can keep alive, and cultivate into a fuller perfection, the art of life itself and do not sell themselves for the means of life, who will be able to enjoy the abundance when it comes.

The whole thing was written as a cope by Keynes to try and market capitalism to people during the great depression when people were turning to radicalism and Marxism.

mitigating the periodic crises of capitalism using counter cyclical government spending won't work in the long run. Only replacing capitalism with socialism will.

MMT is really just keynesianism on roids, and we know where that leads.

Plus I've read some really stupid and misguided critiques of Marxism by people like Steve Keen

 No.1404196

>>1404167
>MMT is really just keynesianism on roids, and we know where that leads
Read the OP, especially the
>Q: Why should I as a leftist care about these things?
part of it

 No.1404650

>>1404167
>you realize he got a ton of shit wrong, right? Like where he claims capitalism and productivity will rise so high that people will only have 15 hour workweeks (lol)

You mean like claiming that capitalism was a great thing for humanity that has/has the potential to increase human productivity and give us the means to live better lives and then we should move past it? That would be crazy wouldn't it (Marx)

>The whole thing was written as a cope by Keynes to try and market capitalism to people during the great depression when people were turning to radicalism and Marxism.

You don't know much about Keynes evidently, he was very much sympathetic towards Marxism. And hey if you don't want to read Keynes, you can always go to Kalecki who says the exact same things but far more easy to digest for a marxist like yourself. If you think Keynes was wrong, what is wrong with Kalecki exactly?

>mitigating the periodic crises of capitalism using counter cyclical government spending won't work in the long run. Only replacing capitalism with socialism will.

It's not meant to work in the long run to 'save' capitalism. You have a shitty reading of Keynes. Keynes was not interested in 'saving' capitalism, but in improving the economic system in which he lived tangibly, which had the side effect of saving capitalism (which again is not a BAD thing inherently because it is a continuation of a positive transformational dialectic, the death of capitalism is deferred and capitalism was shown to be more complex
and resilient than Marx initially assumed- this is not a bad thing and I'm sure Marx would agree, it's something to celebrate)

>MMT is really just keynesianism on roids, and we know where that leads.
I notice you don't understand the difference between Neo-Keynesianism and Post-Keynesianism

>Plus I've read some really stupid and misguided critiques of Marxism by people like Steve Keen

This reeks of resentment rather than critique.

 No.1405005

>>1404650
“How can I accept the Communist doctrine, which sets up as its bible, above and beyond criticism, an obsolete textbook which I know not only to be scientifically erroneous but without interest or application to the modern world? How can I adopt a creed which, preferring the mud to the fish, exalts the boorish proletariat above the bourgeoisie and the intelligentsia, who with all their faults, are the quality of life and surely carry the seeds of all human achievement? Even if we need a religion, how can we find it in the turbid rubbish of the red bookshop? It is hard for an educated, decent, intelligent son of Western Europe to find his ideals here, unless he has first suffered some strange and horrid process of conversion which has changed all his values.”

― John Maynard Keynes

 No.1405007

>>1404650
>This reeks of resentment rather than critique.
yes anon, why not read these anti communist authors? you don't need socialism lets just have capitalism with state spending.

fuck off rosa killer

 No.1405008

>>1405005
He was sympathetic, didn't say he accepted it. And criticisng Marx does not make his work obsolete or wrong. Have you considered that maybe Karl Marx wasn't right about absolutely everything (I know, the horror to suggest such a thing)

 No.1405011

>>1405007
>espouse economist who used rosa luxemburg as foremost influence in his writings
>told "fuck off rosa killer" by rando ML online

 No.1405014

>>1405011
see: >>1405005 Keynes was a bourgeois intellectual and an anti communist

 No.1405016

>>1405014
see: >>1404196

Consider reading Keynes because you clearly haven't and your criticism amounts to 'My narrow understanding of what Keynesians are, did bad things'

 No.1405047

>>1405016
>Keynes had declared “the end of laissez-faire” in 1926, but Dobb complained that that whenever he raised the question of class, Keynes would “simply misunderstand you, or else say that you are introducing ‘sentimental’ considerations which do not concern him & do not seem to him important.” What Keynes regarded as “sentimental,” Dobb considered essential to any understanding of economic theory — or of the world, for that matter.

 No.1405050

Stupid pipe dream bullshit. The current state of affairs didn't happen by accident. This MMT bullshit is no more realistic than the country going socialist or anything else.

While you're dreaming, you might as well dream bigger.

 No.1405053

File: 1679254956029.png (156.73 KB, 247x506, Screen Shot 2022-07-02 at ….png)

>>1405050
>bumping the socdem thread

 No.1405074

>>1405047
Again, I don't give a shit about Keynes' lack of understanding of Marxism and what he said. I care about his material analysis of the economy which if you understood anything about it you would see is complementary to Marx. You are a vapid accelerationist who hates reform.

 No.1405203

>>1405074
why is accelerationism vapid? considering succdem acts like a numbing agent which has successfully prevented the western societies proletariat from rebelling or 200 years

 No.1405322

>>1405203
>It is bad because I wanted communism now!!!
>It couldn’t possibly be that this is a logical and necessary step in the dialectic

 No.1405338

>>1405322
>It couldn’t possibly be that this is a logical and necessary step in the dialectic
cope

 No.1405404

>>1405338
You’re the one coping with your fairyland metaphysics…

 No.1405409

File: 1679272557827.png (525.93 KB, 640x640, ClipboardImage.png)

>>1405404
What if accelerationism was the necessary step in the dialectic?

 No.1405424

>>1405409
What if it isn’t, you’ve spent years making society worse

 No.1405446

>>1405404
>You’re the one coping with your fairyland metaphysics…
spoken like a true keynesian… why dont you just stfu about dialectics since you obviously don't understand them

 No.1405455

>>1405446
Why don’t you enlighten me then since you apparently think I know nothing about them. Let’s discuss. What are your opinions on Castoriadis’ critique of Marxian dialectics?

 No.1405492

>>1405446
Orthodox Marxism,” writes Georg Lukács in his book Geschichte and Klassenbewusstsein (and we think he is right), “does not mean an uncritical acceptance of the results of Marx’s investigations, does not mean a ‘belief’ in this or that thesis, nor the exegesis of a ‘sacred book.’ Orthodoxy in questions of Marxism relates rather exclusively to the method. It is the scientific conviction that it is only in the sense of its founder that this method can be expanded, extended and deepened. And this conviction rests on the observation that all attempts to overcome or ‘improve’ that method have led, and necessarily so, only to triteness, platitudinizing and eclecticism …” But though the results obtained by means of the Marxist method can be quite differently appraised, most of the interpreters rely almost exclusively, as they themselves assert, upon dialectical materialism. The method is often subordinated to the interpretations, just as a tool can be differently employed by different persons for different ends. And thus arises an actual propensity, as illustrated by Herman Simpson, [5] to denote the dialectical method as “a tool for giants,” which can be handled better by one person and worse by another, and this circumstances is taken to indicate its revolutionary greatness. But this “respectful” attitude quite overlooks the fact that the dialectical method is only the real, concrete movement taken up into and partially determined by consciousness. The process going on has been comprehended, and one intervenes in the process as a result of that comprehension.

 No.1405497

‘ The stronger these are, the better; but however weak they may be, class consciousness to Marxism is not an ideology but the material life needs of the masses, without regard to their ideological position. Hook’s idea of the revolution as a party matter belongs to a period which is already surpassed, – the period of reformism, for which Marxism had frozen into an ideology and whose position Hook, in spite of all his criticism, after all now approves.’

 No.1405725

This thread's OP features a screencap from something animated, therefore less than nothing of value is contained within, everybody is a hyper-retard

 No.1405732

The U.S. empire already functions off MMT effectuvely, whiuch is bad, read Jehu

 No.1405734

>>1405732
stop bumping this fucking retard pseuds thread anon, he just wants attention

 No.1405760

>>1405732
I agree w this btw

 No.1405761

>>1405734
stay mad :)


Unique IPs: 18
[Return][Go to top] [Catalog] | [Home][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[ home / rules / faq ] [ overboard / sfw / alt ] [ leftypol / siberia / hobby / tech / edu / games / anime / music / draw / AKM ] [ meta / roulette ] [ cytube / git ] [ GET / ref / marx / booru / zine ]
[ Return / Go to top /