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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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File: 1716329399511.png (34.58 KB, 383x389, 1681105678704-0.png)

 

Why are "developing countries" and racial/religious minorities in western nations so much more "socially conservative" i.e. pro religion, in-group tribalism ( >>1844601 ), anti-lgbt, patriarchy, etc. than western societies.

And isn't this used by both western right wingers and islamists for example?

 

>It’s worth remembering, as the Pew Research Center has reported, that the most [left wing] slice of Americans is disproportionately white: (68%)
<Voters of color are often more moderate. They are more religious on average than [leftists]. Most voters of color favor tighter border security. Many support expansions of charter schools or vouchers. Many favor both police reform and more policing. Many support civil rights for trans Americans — but not allowing all athletes to choose whether they participate in female or male sports.
>Racial minorities, as Marc Hetherington of the University of North Carolina told Thomas Edsall, “are much more tradition-minded and authority-minded” than white [leftists]

 

>>1862029
>Pew Research Center
So when they say left it means liberal so irrelevant to us. Next

 

>>1862029
Bullshit

Absolute majority of republican voters are white straight males

In latam and brazil the whites are the most racist and reactionary class on Earth

 

>>1862035
im sorry but this is just cope. IF even moderate socdem is too far left for them (see: Bernie sanders in 2020/2016 primaries) what makes you think they want COMMUNISM.

Do you really think there is some voter answering "i don't like the word liberalism I actually want COMMUNISM so instead I'll answer MODERATE".

Please. You fucking KNOW this is not the case.

 

>>1862038
There probably are some tankie faggots out there who are like 'I'm not checking liberal, I HATE liberals', but overall I agree it's probably not that many

 


 

>>1862029
because social progressivism is directly proportional to economic development. you can see early examples of this with urbanization during the industrial revolution. as people move to cities and concentrate in one area it increases state revenue which can be put into social services. this means that families dont have to rely on having 7 kids to help with the harvest as part of their retirement and can instead get pensions.

when your country doesn't have the money to invest in social infrastructure because imperialists are extracting all your resources and taking them to their country to make high value goods to sell back to your country it creates economic dependency and people have to rely on "traditional families" for survival.

>>1862038
>IF even moderate socdem is too far left for them
people in this situation usually support any kind of economic developmentalism whether thats moderate socdem dirigisme dengism nationalism etc

but you cant just smash progressive social policies together with progressive economic policies you have to actually have a material base to support the social policies first and then wait a generation for the kids to grow up without scarcity and competition for basic survival before they will stop being reactionary, or at least for socially progressive people to outnumber them

 

>>1862032
>It’s worth remembering, as the Pew Research Center has reported, that the most [left wing] slice of Americans is disproportionately white: (68%)
I'm not sure that's so disproportionate per their share of the overall population. I think it's mistaken to view people of color as automatically leftists, yes. They are more conservative relative to… white leftists. Are they more conservative relatives to whites as a whole? I'm not so sure. You ask black Americans what they think about same-sex marriage (this is just an example), and I've seen polls that said they were more likely to disapprove, but it was only by a few percentage points, which was not that significant.

 

Social Liberalism has essentially replaced "Civilizing the savages" as the excuse de jure for Western Imperialism, while still hitting all the usual checkmarks: that the people in third world countries are inherently "backwards" and would be better off if Westerners were writing their laws for them.

That said, the fetishization of the third world as "the real revolutionary vanguard", or that there's some innate tendency in minority groups to become radical socialists, it's more or less just excuses the Western Left has made for their failures and doesn't hold up to reality. A lot of those Leftist groups fell not long after the USSR did, and a few were more or less just calling themselves "Socialist" to pursue a nationalist agenda with Soviet backing. Even in peripheral states where there has been Socialist movements, they almost always end up moderating themselves, or fighting to a standstill with their national government, or losing. I doubt the one thing holding the Naxalists back from success is the existence of the CIA, though certainly it doesn't help them.

All in all the Left has just become too far removed from the people, and it's trying to apply some silly theories to revolution, that it's not the workers but the most hyper-exploited section of the workers that are the "real agents of history" or whatever. It's just an inversion of traditional western chauvanist morality that's upheld because it can appeal to some base narcissism among certain groups (centering them as the unique agents of history, free of the "original sin" of European imperialism) one one hand and White Liberal guilt on the other.

 

File: 1716332274528-0.png (192.71 KB, 1021x644, pinkwashing.png)

File: 1716332274528-1.png (740.82 KB, 1512x912, LGBT imperialism cycle.png)

>why does an underdeveloped base have an underdeveloped superstructure
should be obvious
>NATO countries went from fag bashing to pinkwashing in 2 decades flat… why don't the countries they colonized get excited about this?
should be obvious

 

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>>1862073
>Social Liberalism has essentially replaced "Civilizing the savages" as the excuse de jure for Western Imperialism
this isn't as new as you think. Imperial core Liberals were using 1st wave feminism as an excuse to "liberate" the periphery literally nanoseconds after women got suffrage.

 

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>>1862073
>that it's not the workers but the most hyper-exploited section of the workers that are the "real agents of history" or whatever.
don't even talk to me unless you tick every single box on the wheel of oppression. The next Lenin WILL be a black, disabled, obese, transfem, ESL, homeless, neurodivergent, mentally ill, uneducated lesbian. Anything else is just kkkrackkkers just trying to co-opt the movement.

 

>*constantly coup progressive governments in the third world and replace them with fasctoids*
<why are they so reactionary?

 

>>1862282
>constantly use *everything* as vectors for destabilization - religion, tribalism, lgbt, feminism, even fucking UN vaccination programs
<why are they so much more "socially conservative"?

 

>>1862082
>why does an underdeveloped base have an underdeveloped superstructure

Hmm, but, what makes a superstructure 'underdeveloped' , why being homophobic stands as underdeveloped whilst the concept of 'development' seems like it is completely assumed here, what is the proper way to calculate it?

 

>>1862073
literally the only successful socialist revolutions have occurred in the third world

 

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>>1862073
>That said, the fetishization of the third world as "the real revolutionary vanguard", or that there's some innate tendency in minority groups to become radical socialists, it's more or less just excuses the Western Left has made for their failures and doesn't hold up to reality.

 

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>>1862399
>Hmm, but, what makes a superstructure 'underdeveloped'

 

>>1862470
Um, why it works liek this? Also, there are industrialized countries which has most of their population as homophobics.

 

>>1862474
Marxoids underestimate the grip of the superstructure

 

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>>1862082
What is being "pinkwashed"?

In the UK the leader of the cultural far right has amassed under Douglas Murray, a neocon zionist homosexual who openly states his "opposition to Islam is because they want to put me in prison"

So what is being "pinkwashed" - Murray (and rest of the LGBTs) are acutely aware their identity is intimately tied to the British State and NATO imperialism.
Why would imperialism need to pinkwash anything… when it's in face become a core pillar of imperialism?

 

>>1862073
Do you have a theory for why white socialists like you and white unions typically chose racial chauvinism and solidarity with white capitalist owners over solidarity with black proles, or were us stupid nighurs supposed to use our magical negro powers to get all-white unions to side with us over Jim Crow, capitalists, and the Klan?

 

>>1862495
I know, maybe we should have lynched ourselves so we wouldn’t be scabs to honkie unions that denied our entry when they went on strike?

 

Maybe because they’ve seen what Atlanticist anti-culture has done to nations it infects and don’t want it to take root in their own communities? Maybe because liberalism is blatantly a tool of western colonialism and imperialism?

 

>>1862431
What's your point.
Not that it matters, but you're also wrong.

 

>>1862495
>Unions
>ever radical

Wasn't always the case. The CPUSA once was the forerunner of the civil rights movement and white communists died along side black sharecroppers in a bid to organize racially integrated unions.
Orders from Moscow changed that, forcing the CPUSA to court white liberals to create a United Front against fascism. It is what destroyed the party as it did not understand how corrosive the American political system via reformism.

 

>>1862503
I know about that
I feel CPUSA anon sides with dogshit reformist Browderite over the early radical CPUSA

I’m sure that faggot sees the Charleston church slaughter as a proletarian revolution in the making, the destruction of Tulsa as a heroic act of national rejuvenation, and would see non-whites in death camps as heroic Caeserism

 

>>1862506
i'm sure it was real in your head

 

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>>1862514
You’re the motherfucker’s that claim that anti-racism is divisive because you want to recruit neo-Nazis more than black workers
Face it, you’re a fascist fag, which is why you worship dead traditions that you let weigh on your mind rather than fighting for socialism in the here and now

If Amerikan farmers said “I LOVE SOCIALISM!” then ran up to a black family’s home, slaughtered the parents, burned the house down with the children inside it, and then dragged out the remaining adults to hang them to death you’d call it a revolution

I’m sure this is revolutionary violence by Leftypol’s standards, fucking fascist scum
> After Hayes Turner was murdered, his distraught wife Mary, who was eight months pregnant, publicly denounced her husband's lynching. She denied that her husband had been involved in Smith's killing, and threatened to have members of the mob arrested. The mob turned against her, determined to "teach her a lesson".[10] Although she fled, Mary Turner was captured at noon on May 19.[1][10] The mob of several hundred took her to the bank in Brooks County near Folsom Bridge, over the Little River, which forms the border with Lowndes County.[10][4]
> According to investigator Walter F. White of the NAACP, Mary Turner was tied and hung upside down by the ankles, her clothes soaked with gasoline, and burned from her body. Her belly was slit open with a knife like those used "in splitting hogs."[10] Her "unborn babe" fell to the ground and gave "two feeble cries."[10] Its head was crushed by a member of the mob with his heel, and the crowd shot hundreds of bullets into Turner's body.[10][4][14] Mary Turner was cut down and buried with her child near the tree, with a whiskey bottle marking the grave.[1] The Atlanta Constitution published an article with the subheadline: "Fury of the People Is Unrestrained."[15]
THIS IS THE GREAT PROLETARIAN REVOLUTION, RIGHT CPUSA ANON YOU SON OF A BITCH!?!?!
>>1862073
THESE ARE THE FUCKING PEOPLE YOU SUPPORT YES YOU SON OF A BITCH, HERE, I PUT SOME PHOTOS OF PROLETARIAN VIOLENCE FOR YOU, DONT WORRY THEYRE SPOILERED, ANTI-RACISM IS FALSE RIGHT, ALL OF THIS IS FAKE YES, DEATH TO ALL THAT OPPOSE THE AMERIKAN NATION, DEATH TO ALL THAT CRITIQUE SETTLERISM, THIS IS YOUR STANCE YES, LYNCH US COLOREDS, KILL US ALL, LIKE YOUR FUCKING HERO MOSLEY RIGHT, RIGHT???

LOOK AT THE PEOPLE YOU WORSHIP, SUCH GREAT REVOLUTIONARY ACTS, SUCH GREAT PROLETARIAN REVOLUTIONARY SOLIDARITY

 

>>1862518
Reminder to report this retard instead of getting in to an argument with a mentally ill man.
You have better things to do, anons.

 

>>1862520
You white socialists truly are all identical, at the end of the day, you’re desperate to ally with white racists, because you see black socialists like me as subhuman animalistic scum who need to be slaughtered so your “true” revolution can occur, hence why you think black socialists need to be killed if we dare address racism and white chauvinism

 

>>1862475
the superstructure is particularly strong in the imperial core where financialization and imperialism has totally hidden the base from most people. America is more propagandized than they accuse North Koreans of being.

 

>>1862505
You know, just because they called the Greenwood neighborhood in Tulsa "Black Wall Street" as a condescending head patting jest during the height of "Lyncherdom" as Mark Twain called it, doesn't meant that Tulsa was actually some kind of hive of black capitalism. Greenwood was just a neighborhood where black people were unusually healthy, well-dressed, well-fed, and educated, considering it was the 1920s, and there were still people at that time who had been born into the final years of slavery. The Tulsa massacre, which burgers falsely call a "race riot" to bothsides it was not the wholesome proletarian Ku Klux Klan seizing and redistributing the means of production from the black bourgeoisie as you pretend it is. Nor was it framed that way at the time. An entire neighborhood was bombed and torched, and its residents massacred, because one man was falsely accused of rape after he tripped and touched a white woman.
Consider suicide.

 

western societies are *legally* tolerant of lgbt people, and not even up until fairly recently (sodomy still got you put on the sex offender registry in some US states up until the 2000s/2010s and people who were charged with it are still on the registry) and only thanks to lib and lefty activists and reformers
the general population is still coming around i think

 

>>1862588
also in reference to your OP pic, clarence thomas is a literal uncle tom who gets paid by a white billionaire republican real estate developer, although patriarchy and homophobia arent exclusively "white" phenomena either

 

>>1862065
>it increases state revenue which can be put into social services
Economic relations are idealist. It's just a social game. The correct answer is found, as always, OUTSIDE of bourgeois economics. It is simply that men make their own history based on circumstances not of their own choosing, and the development of the forces of production both produces disposable time and its market valorization.
<As soon as labour in the direct form has ceased to be the great well-spring of wealth, labour time ceases and must cease to be its measure, and hence exchange value [must cease to be the measure] of use value. The surplus labour of the mass has ceased to be the condition for the development of general wealth, just as the non-labour of the few, for the development of the general powers of the human head. With that, production based on exchange value breaks down, and the direct, material production process is stripped of the form of penury and antithesis. The free development of individualities, and hence not the reduction of necessary labour time so as to posit surplus labour, but rather the general reduction of the necessary labour of society to a minimum, which then corresponds to the artistic, scientific etc. development of the individuals in the time set free, and with the means created, for all of them. Capital itself is the moving contradiction, [in] that it presses to reduce labour time to a minimum, while it posits labour time, on the other side, as sole measure and source of wealth. Hence it diminishes labour time in the necessary form so as to increase it in the superfluous form; hence posits the superfluous in growing measure as a condition – question of life or death – for the necessary. On the one side, then, it calls to life all the powers of science and of nature, as of social combination and of social intercourse, in order to make the creation of wealth independent (relatively) of the labour time employed on it. On the other side, it wants to use labour time as the measuring rod for the giant social forces thereby created, and to confine them within the limits required to maintain the already created value as value. Forces of production and social relations – two different sides of the development of the social individual – appear to capital as mere means, and are merely means for it to produce on its limited foundation. In fact, however, they are the material conditions to blow this foundation sky-high. ‘Truly wealthy a nation, when the working day is 6 rather than 12 hours. Wealth is not command over surplus labour time’ (real wealth), ‘but rather, disposable time outside that needed in direct production, for every individual and the whole society.’ (The Source and Remedy etc. 1821, p. 6.)
Now kys you illiterate bourgeois bottom boy.

 


>>1862475
There are bourgeois autistic economists who have read Marx, and there are capitalist simps cosplaying as pundits, and they're no better than pig food. See below.

>>1862570
WRONG.
<The development of fixed capital indicates to what degree general social knowledge has become a direct force of production, and to what degree, hence, the conditions of the process of social life itself have come under the control of the general intellect and been transformed in accordance with it. To what degree the powers of social production have been produced, not only in the form of knowledge, but also as immediate organs of social practice, of the real life process.
Shove your tendentious moralism and your economic predestinationism back up your fascist pb ass where it came from.

 

>>1862073
>It's just an inversion of traditional western chauvanist morality that's upheld because it can appeal to some base narcissism among certain groups (centering them as the unique agents of history, free of the "original sin" of European imperialism) one one hand and White Liberal guilt on the other.

That's basically my feeling on the matter summed up. It's just western chauvanism flipped on it's head. It like people got the wrong conclusion from anti-racism; that racism is ok so long as their race are in control under it and race has some kind of metaphysical property to it instead of coming to the correct conclusion that race is a bunch of made-up bullshit.

 

social conservatism is the state ideology of nations ruled by compradores whose allegiance is to the imperialist core, it's a top down imposition, not something innate to the third world.

 

Sounds like op ate the propoganda

 

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>>1862506
I think it's telling that this post was banned
>>1862505
but not the post saying that victims in Tulsa were mostly "black bourgeoisie" (they weren't)

 

>>1862808
This tbh. Like it's hard to overstate the degree of brutality of racism in the US. It's still really normal for even "liberal" white people to justify it too. Like how many times do you hear them say genociding the natives was "civilizing" them? Look at how much work it took for liberals to recognize the brutality that regularly happened at the hands of police. They had to kill someone as egregiously as George Floyd's murder for people to sit up and notice. Like they legit believed the shit they were taught in school that the Black Panthers were just the black KKK and thought NWA's Fuck the Police was like a fairy tale or something.

 

>>1862688
>It like people got the wrong conclusion from anti-racism
Anti-racism is just racism turned on its head, trying to outcompete the racists in a popularity contest. They got the intended conclusion from anti-racism, that contest is a valid truth procedure rather than a behavioral disorder. The energy wasted on friction in these games is lost forever, just as their creators intend. Here is one powerful scientific metaphor analysts have used:
<A dissipative system is a thermodynamically open system which is operating out of, and often far from, thermodynamic equilibrium in an environment with which it exchanges energy and matter. A tornado may be thought of as a dissipative system. Dissipative systems stand in contrast to conservative systems.
<A dissipative structure is a dissipative system that has a dynamical regime that is in some sense in a reproducible steady state. This reproducible steady state may be reached by natural evolution of the system, by artifice, or by a combination of these two.

>>1862912
>genociding the natives was "civilizing" them
Why do you need civilization to have a positive valence rather than ruthless critique?

 

>>1862923
>Why do you need civilization to have a positive valence rather than ruthless critique?
It's used as a defense in that it was a good thing. That's got nothing to do with what "I need."

 

>>1862930
I mean, isn't that just what civilization (a process, not a thing) is?

 

Because non-whites from 3rd world countries come from a different cultural background. Since they aren't culturally Western, liberals assume they are "socially conservative" and thus imperialism in the defense of liberty is totally justified according to the libs.

>pro religion

Well, these regions were all colonized by secular powers that sometimes implemented discriminatory religious policies towards Islam or traditional African religions etc. so people stick to their traditions. Western Christianity is a lot more abstract and individualistic and has been on the decline for decades anyway. The West is less religious because it embraced a certain secular post-Christian worldview. Its a simple cultural difference.

>anti-lgbt

People in developing countries have their own approaches to sex and gender. LGBT culture and even LGBT identities are Western and really didn't become popular in Western countries until the 70s and 80s. In parts of India or Indonesia, you have more than one sex sometimes up to four. Same-sex sexuality is very common, probably a higher percentage of men in developing countries have engaged in same sex activity at some point in their life than most men in Western countries, but the amount of people who identify as gay or straight is relatively small and limited to a Westernized elite.

>patriarchy

What does patriarchy even mean any more? In the West we have nuclear families and total individual autonomy/atomization. In Africa and Asia your more likely to find different kinship structures like tribes, clans etc. So they have different kinship models and sexual practices from us and we just brand them "patriarchy" to make ourselves feel superior.

So why is social conservative political movements so popular in these countries? Its simple. People embrace conservatism as a means of resisting what they see as liberal progressive imperialism. e.g. anti-LGBT pastors in Uganda get their shit from Western missionaries and American evangelicals. This is happening at a time when the US is aggressively pushing gay rights on so-called shithole countries and doing their best to interfere in local culture. A long comes some evangelical whackjob who explains to his follow Christians (and Ugandans tend to be very Christian) that this is part of a great war on Christianity etc. so not only does conservatism give them a narrative it also connects them with a global community they can rely on for support. Its all just politics.

 

>>1862808
It's actually insane how that anon was banned but not the other anon. Cpusanon makes good posts but I still remember when he made an unhinged rant about how leftists are forcing him to feel guilty about being white and don't be suprised when white socialists turn towards fascism. He said it was a drunk post but I would keep that in mind when it comes to American socialism. The peak of American socialism in the 1900s saw a divide on segregation and racial discrimination. Race is a massive part of class in this country as well and ignoring it won't make it disappear.

 

>>1862923
White hands typed this post

 

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>>1862092
Ik this is satire, but reminder.

 

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>>1862923
>Anti-racism is just racism turned on its head
<Anti-fascism is the worst product of fascism
>>1862988
Covered in lasagna, hai capito, vero?

 

>>1862808
>>1862962
mods are dumb and cant detect casual chvddery probably
casually implying that the victims of the tulsa massacre were bourgeoisie so it was nothing (or they deserved it) is less immediately incendiary than a rant about how the average leftypol user is a nazi

 

>>1863009
The only communist leader truly comfortable in his masculinity

 

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>>1862506

 

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>>1862495
>Do you have a theory for why white socialists like you and white unions typically chose racial chauvinism and solidarity with white capitalist owners over solidarity with black proles, or were us stupid nighurs supposed to use our magical negro powers to get all-white unions to side with us over Jim Crow, capitalists, and the Klan?

Actually there were and are plenty of White Socialists willing to fight and die alongside their black comrades. Now if you're wondering why there's this appearance things have "changed" the answer is something that's going to make you real mad: it's you, for the most part.

The simple fact of the matter is that solidarity has to be based on principles of mutual respect, friendship, and a sharing of burdens and struggle. You, however, treat solidarity like a one-way street: it's what people owe you. They have to please you. And when, if ever, do you return the favor? Well, to be frank, you don't. Once one set of demands are met you come up with another one, then another, then more after that. I'd like to go back to Sakai here, because it's a great representation of this attitude. Early White Communists fought and bled alongside their Black Comrades, only for years later some dumbass writer to refer to those same Communists as vicious racists, treacherous, and (ironically enough) untrustworthy. All that struggle and for what? For some tut-tutting asshole to huff "Not good enough." And as a White Communist, what do you see when the topic of Sakai comes up? Well certainly a lot of other comrades rallying to him, defending him, the most you'll hear as a critique is "well I disagree with him but I understand his emotional state, the rage."

So when your White Comrades hear a guy saying all White people, including us, are treacherous racists and not even real workers, what do they see from you? Are you rallying to defend the reputation of your comrades? Are you showing even an ounce of solidarity? Or are you lecturing them that they have to sit down, shut up, and listen to the guy saying we're evil because of our race?

When some Republican fuck does something racist, then no matter how much we disagree with it and rally against it, you say it's a reflection of us collectively. When Black Activists hassled Bernie Sanders off stage, mocked him for not openly supporting reparations, and then when the Black vote collectively killed his campaign, what did we hear? "Oh, it's different. See that was just older Black people! That was just a few DNC shills! The youth vote went to Bernie! Let's have *nuance!*" Well where's that same nuance, that same concern, that same drive not to collectively condemn a group when it comes to your White Comrades? It evaporates. If some White guy has a friend or family member that, I dunno, voted Trump, you demand that we completely cut them out of our lives to show solidarity for you. But where do we see Black comrades rushing to do the same? When it comes to an author you haven't even met, it's all "Well you've got to understand where he's coming from!" or "What, are you just upset because he's mean to you?"

Shit when I said, out of frustration mind you, that if Sakai was right then White people should just go Fascist at that point because solidarity was impossible, I got told "that doesn't make sense" or "there's no reason for that" when the entire-fucking-premise of Sakai's work is that all White people are bad, none of them are workers, and it's okay to lie about your White Comrades to accuse them of racism. Why the fuck should any White guy choose to go Communist at that point? Because we "like" you? You're spitting scorn at us every chance you fucking get. Because we "owe" you? According to who? God? I thought Communism was supposed to be atheistic!

And the second anyone says "You're being a dick, can you knock it off" you go into fucking hysterics. You act like we're making some insane demand of you. And it becomes really clear there that this relationship is all take and no give. It's one not based off mutual respect, but manipulation and abuse, and it's no surprise that people check out after that. Why the fuck would anyone willingly associate with an org filled with such mean-spirited and miserable people?

Honestly at this point I only try for small scale solidarity. I've got more in common with my coworkers and friends than I do most "comrades" these days.

 

>>1863018
Last time I checked being 'immediately incendiary' isn't in the rules.

 

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>>1862935
>I mean, isn't that just what civilization (a process, not a thing) is?

 


 

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>>1863133
Man, twitter fucking sucks as it's designed to amplify the most retarded and rage-inducing takes it can find. I suggest to not engage in it without first entering in the mindset that you will only see dumbass shit.
Or have you seen this kind of narrative you describe being pushed or being otherwise popular anywhere else?

 

>>1862923
> Anti-racism is just racism turned on its head, trying to outcompete the racists in a popularity contest.
Well, what do you mean by anti-racist? That Kendi is a grifter is quite well known, but such a label is oftentimes used to describe substantially different positions.

 

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>>1862952
>What does patriarchy even mean any more?

Basically divided gender roles where women are focused on childbearing, cooking, cleaning in the home, while men work outside the home Plus dubious notions of consent (marital rape, "its your duty to satisfy your husband", arranged/forced marriage), lack of education of women both in the formal sense and also of contraceptives.

>People in developing countries have their own approaches to sex and gender. LGBT culture and even LGBT identities are Western and really didn't become popular in Western countries until the 70s and 80s. In parts of India or Indonesia, you have more than one sex sometimes up to four. Same-sex sexuality is very common, probably a higher percentage of men in developing countries have engaged in same sex activity at some point in their life than most men in Western countries, but the amount of people who identify as gay or straight is relatively small and limited to a Westernized elite.

yes and most anti lgbt attitudes in these countries (other than islamic countries) attitudes are just leftovers from european colonialism. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

>Well, these regions were all colonized by secular powers that sometimes implemented discriminatory religious policies towards Islam or traditional African religions etc. so people stick to their traditions. Western Christianity is a lot more abstract and individualistic and has been on the decline for decades anyway. The West is less religious because it embraced a certain secular post-Christian worldview. Its a simple cultural difference.

not to go full fedora here but the religion obviously ties into the anti lgbt and patriarchy since those religions were invented thousands of years ago when such attitudes were widespread and non controversial all over the globe. But today they are.

I have met and been friend with several thirdoid immigrants to the west and while some assimilate others basically told me in their country women don't work and also have to serve men and obey them and their father etc. And in the west they go crazy and get drunk and start touching/grabbing western women because they think they are all sluts. Not a joke, I was friends with one of those guys and our whole group got kicked out of a bar because he grabbed a random girls boob.

Not to mention in these countries lack of sexual freedom in the post 1960s west sense, for example the freedom of young people to live together before marriage, or have sex before married.

Not to mention other practices that are very looked down upon in the west and are also objectively bad such as cousin marriage which is frequently practiced in the near/middle eats, north africa, and south asia.

In the west such practices are considered the domain of poor clannish people like american rednecks or germans of saarland.

 

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>>1862952
>Same-sex sexuality is very common, probably a higher percentage of men in developing countries have engaged in same sex activity at some point in their life than most men in Western countries, but the amount of people who identify as gay or straight is relatively small and limited to a Westernized elite.
The way it works in a lot of places is that having sex with men isn't gay if you don't have access to women. It's not gay if you have sex with men in school, prison, military, or the seminary. Also there's more sexual assault by adult men on boys, which is not gay either, that goes on in the world than you might realize.

>People embrace conservatism as a means of resisting what they see as liberal progressive imperialism.

"Resisting liberal progressive imperialism" is mostly an excuse and functions as part of a double oppression of queer people around the world. Not only are their basic rights denied, they're equated with imperialism. Imperialism here is just a word meant to make the oppression sound less objectionable. Isolation and war doesn't help matters, though (you can't bomb the homophobia out of people), and it also inhibits cultural exchanges and travel and everything that is brought along with that.

 

>>1863156
>Or have you seen this kind of narrative you describe being pushed or being otherwise popular anywhere else?
Twitter and posting definitely amplify it, but there was a case a while ago where the CPUSA absorbed some people from a small Maoist org. What happened was, essentially, one of the new dudes in the org kept pushing some “settlers” or settlers adjacent stuff. One of the white guys posted on Twitter something like “If I have to hear ‘read settlers’ one more time I’m gonna smack someone.” The new guy immediately accused the white guy and his friends of being racist, they were told by leadership in the group to self-crit and admit they’re racist, and the dude finally had enough and just left. That little Maoist group tried contacting us telling us to be careful about them because “he threatened to beat a black man” and was racist. When I talked to some folks in the party about it, they mentioned the folks in question had donated years of their life to that org and were dealing with some raw emotions after being cast out so easily.

As for me personally, I’ve always tried to fly below the radar. I don’t speak out that much, I went to some BLM protests after the George Floyd thing and tore down some Patriot Front posters. Doesn’t mean I don’t feel the sting when I hear this really bitter hatred for White people—of course since Conservatives whine about “racism against Whites” all too often you’ll get laughed down if you suggest it in the rare case it’s true (Sakai undeniably is viscerally racist against Whites). I mean I’ve got people on here suggesting, what, I rooted for the Charleston church shooting? And for what? I don’t like being talked down to and dismissed? Gimme a fucking break.

Then you’ve got that hysteria I mentioned. Idiots on here huffing “ALL THESE WHITE SOCIALISTS JUST WANNA ALLY WITH RACISTS!” I mean ain’t that fucking funny? You’re saying anyone who doesn’t want to get a lecture is out there burning crosses, and then you’re scratching your head wondering “why do all these white communists try to ally with racists?”

It’s like having someone in your social circle that constantly complains that everyone is mean to them, no one likes them, everyone else sucks, and then they start to wonder why no one wants to associate with them.

 

>>1862505
Even if Tulsa was a massacre of the black bourgies, it wasn't an attempt at liberation, but a deliberate attempt to subjugate and terrorize the black population as a whole
get fucked

 

>>1863215
<Man-man sex is for recreation, man-woman sex is for procreation
Something like that. All hero cults do it. Some hero cults lie about it.

 

>>1863215
>"Resisting liberal progressive imperialism" is mostly an excuse and functions as part of a double oppression of queer people around the world. Not only are their basic rights denied, they're equated with imperialism. Imperialism here is just a word meant to make the oppression sound less objectionable. Isolation and war doesn't help matters, though (you can't bomb the homophobia out of people), and it also inhibits cultural exchanges and travel and everything that is brought along with that.
This.People don't "embrace conservatism to resist liberal progressive imperialism", they use the imperialism as an excuse to justify their conservatism (which is actually rooted in power dynamics and insecurity). I can't believe so many people buy this shit

 

>>1862495
Bad bait. Was whiteness why the AFL didnt fight Taft-Hartley, why they let the new anticommunist leadership merge them into AFL-CIO? Perhaps, to the extent that it upholds imperialism in general.
>>1862504
Bad bait
>>1863133
You don't believe in class solidarity?

 

>>1863296
>You don't believe in class solidarity?
That CPUSA flag poster is an actual red-fascist lol. Not in the sense of like anarchists being mad at Stalin or something.

 

>>1862912
>Like they legit believed the shit they were taught in school
When do people on this board realize that shitloads of americans have been churned out of a school system that was entirely designed to figure out how to come up with the best propaganda story with almost nothing to counteract it

 

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>>1863313
When we purge the polcels

 

>>1863296
>You don't believe in class solidarity?

How in the world can you have solidarity with people who are spitting in your face 24/7? When there's a struggle you need to make sure the people next to you have your back, but they're telling you to your face they hate you, they think you're garbage, they don't trust you and never will, and that they view your place in the struggle as having to fight for their interests first and foremost.

It's like asking "well don't you believe in working as a group" when the people assigned to your group insist that you have to do whatever they say, they tell you to your face they don't like you, and then they just straight up start lying about you when you're in the room. Like if you had to go into a workplace and hear people say "Oh yeah this guy steals people's lunches" when you know it's not true, would you ever want to associate with them?

And if you say "Fuck it, they're gonna accuse me of bullshit anyways" and start actually doing half the shit they're saying: stealing lunch, borrowing pens and not returning them, slacking off, they get tears in their eyes and huff: "How could YOU do this to the TEAM?!"

 

>>1862808
>>1863018
not defending the Tulsa massacre but the place was known as "black wall street".

 

Peasants and lumpen need to ally themselves with the state for survival, they're used as leverage against the working class. If there isn't sufficient class consciousness they will turn to the priests and other support mechanisms within capitalism.

 

>>1863384
lmao what

 

Because the third world is ruled by an outdated class, that is the class of national bourgeoisie, that cannot compete in the age of global capitalism under the American world system.
This means that the for the most part Third World ruling class is due to the weakness of their position always careening toward disasters and revolutions; you can see this in the Arab Spring
Which brought us to why the Third World is so conservative and religious. When the government is weak, the state has no choice but really to appeal to the most established conservative elements of society, like landlords or the clergy, that will help stem all revolutionary sentiments.
It is either that, or they appeal to the Hegemon (America) to arm and save their government in exchange of total servitude. You can see this dynamics in peripheral second world country like Ukraine too.

 

>>1863323
Anon i have no idea what you are talking about. Sakaites have always been a very outspoken minority. It's like claiming that MAGAcommunists are a significant part of the left. You literally need to touch grass and meet normal workers, whose concern is primarily about bread and butter and police brutality and not whatever the fuck you're talking about

 

>>1863390
>Anon i have no idea what you are talking about. Sakaites have always been a very outspoken minority. It's like claiming that MAGAcommunists are a significant part of the left. You literally need to touch grass and meet normal workers, whose concern is primarily about bread and butter and police brutality and not whatever the fuck you're talking about

I meet normal workers every fucking day because I am one, and what I hear when I try to report back on what normal workers want is "Well they don't matter, how can we help the poor BIPOC workers first? They're the *real* workers!" It doesn't even matter how niche Sakaites are because the attitude has been filtered down to the loudest voices in the movement. Like I said, solidarity requires a certain amount of mutual trust or respect, and the fact is if you spend long enough in Left Wing circles, it's an inevitability that you'll encounter some Sakai style leftists, and suddenly all those "Comrades" you thought you had will stab you in the back. Shit, you only have to look at this thread to see evidence of that.

 

>>1863357
it was a designated black-only area in segregated tulsa
it had people of all classes

 

>>1863412
just wanted to show you my support with a (you) youre one of the most rational posters itt

 

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>>1863412
There is some truth to what your saying but there is an elephant in the room:zoomers. This is a common talking point among even non-political zoomers and on top of that the policing on this comes from white socialists as well there isnt a POC force forcing this rhetoric out of white people.Most socialist today are either Millennials or Zoomers. There is a genuine desire among Zoomers to truly challenge systemic racism and the like. You can call it white guilt but they dont believe that they have guilt but just finishing a fight.They are not patriotic towards the country so they don't see a desire to pledge to the flag or see the Founders as heroes. In fact zoomers will tell you the Founders are slave owners and nothing more. Thats another reason why they can feel receptive towards socialism because their first instinct is not to dismiss socialism because it is "anti-American" they believe America failed them and see other parts of the world that treat their people better. That would be unheard of with boomers who still talk with American exceptionalism.
>"Well they don't matter, how can we help the poor BIPOC workers first? They're the *real* workers!
I want to know what normal worker you are talking to.Let's be real most people picture a MAGA guy with a pick up trunk as the real worker while BIPOC workers are seen as lazy and getting handouts. BIPOC workers are all DEI hires and leftists are brainwashing zoomers with Critical Race Theory that makes them hate their own country. Thats the common rhetoric when organizing and leftist typically try to pushback against the rhetoric and imply that POC are workers too. If that is Sakaiist I don't know what to tell you. Actual Sakaiist are a minority.
>Like I said, solidarity requires a certain amount of mutual trust or respect
That's the problem what do you mean by mutual respect? Typically what happens is someone mentions systemic racism and someone will say it is divisive rhetoric before the conversation even starts and begins crying about anti-white racism. That's not mutual respect That's wanting someone to chase after you and ignore blatant issues that are unique to different groups.

 

>>1863458
How? The US isn’t 90% white anymore, times change and most workers are non-white now, the once oppressed are becoming the majority and they know their own history of how they were treated by the white majority back in the day. You guys can point at sakaists all you want but 99.99% of those people didn’t even hear of him.

 

>>1863357
I already addressed this nonsense.
>>1862576

 

>>1863357
That's a retarded name Booker T Washington made up for it. Were there black bourgeoisie there? Yes. Mostly petit bourgeoisie. Small business owners. It was majority black proletariat though, like anywhere else. Calling it "black wall street" is tongue in cheek. It just means that it was a nice place rather than a total ghetto. This is 60 years after slavery. The black population only had 60 years to accumulate capital. These weren't the equivalent of millionaire wallstreet stockholders. These were well dressed church going proles and the occasional petty booj, living in a segregated neighborhood that was unusually clean and well kept considering how utterly hostile the surrounding population was.

 

>>1863357
Now that this is saged anyway I'm gonna leave you with an actually good educational video on the subject because I just realized the Extra History one kinda sucks and is liberal as fuck. This one is slower and not as sleekly edited but is better informationally.

 

>>1863556
>>1863357
3:25-4:40 is essential to understand just how overstated the "Wall Street" part of "Black Wall Street" is

 

>>1863482
>If that is Sakaiist I don't know what to tell you. Actual Sakaiist are a minority … That's the problem what do you mean by mutual respect?
I agree it's a minority. I think I've encountered it a handful of times. There was one time when I encountered something like that, where I really did have a negative reaction to a person. He was some Maoist type who made a remark about hearing some labor union people earlier in the day singing "This Land Is Your Land" by Woodie Guthrie and said (in a way that sounded contemptuous) that "it's not your land" and then kicked one of his legs, like he was kicking Woodie Guthrie back to Europe. He was a recent immigrant from India. I was pretty galled by that and just decided…. I didn't want to be around this group.

 

Ironically though the group he was in published a highly negative review of Settlers, described it as corrosive or something like that. Says something about how the people who join these ML groups can have different ideas from the leadership.

 

>>1863487
>The US isn’t 90% white anymore
because of this garbage. americans have idpol brains, its so hard for them to focus on class contradictions. i could understand it from right wing nutjobs or even the average joe, but seeing it among socialists is sad and dangerous
not that im negating ethnic issues exist, mind you. but there are other ways to focus on these problems which is not through fucking idpol

 

>>1863710
>because of this garbage. americans have idpol brains, its so hard for them to focus on class contradictions. i could understand it from right wing nutjobs or even the average joe, but seeing it among socialists is sad and dangerous

yes but the reason for that is that race becomes the class system of a settler colonial society. When you think of british you think of being obsessed with class, but they conceive of class as a holdover from the feudal system with aristocrats etc. The same is in the US except the jacksonian populist revolution transformed the old class system based on property to one based on race. Therefore all white men, regardless of wealth, became the new "ruling class" and this wasn't ended until the mid 20th century with the end of semi feudal sharecropping relations in the south and civil rights for blacks.

So race in the US is a holdover from chattel slavery the same way "class" in Britain is a holdover from the feudal system. Of course neither of these devleopments abolished class in the Marxist sense.

 

>>1863840
>Therefore all white men, regardless of wealth, became the new "ruling class"
3/10 made me reply
i guess that means comrade obama was the lenin of our time or somn

 

>>1863887
Nta your still ignoring the connection of race and class in this country. Notice he said "ruling class" Everyone knows that being white gives a better status over the former slave class of the country. That doesnt imply they are bourgeois but gaining access to land and resources effected the descendents. This quote is still relevant today.
<If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you
So what does this mean? Solidarity is hard in this country when the ruling class tells you that the lazy black is taking your tax dollars and getting free healthcare from your labor. I'm assuming your not American because you said "them". That is so common it hurts most mass movements in this country.Race and class are connected in this country and not talking about the elephant in the room kill movements. Socialist always discussed race because that is our material conditions. CPUSA was criticized for being too focused on negroes by other Socialist groups in the 1930s and would be considered IDpol today. Of course race isn't centered but it is discussed in the background and is needed to have a full analysis of the US

 

>>1863913
again, im not claiming america has a legitimate ethnic problem that needs solving. but you have black, asian, hispanic and white bourgeois and workers. again, you had a black bourgeois running the country for 4 years. the blm movement has been coopted by the state and the bourgeois
it makes no sense to have such a deep focus in ethnic policy. american working class whites are *NOT*, i repeat *ARE NOT* a "ruling class". they dont own means of production, which is an objective, concrete form of power. its a self perpetuating issue if you dont break the vicious circle

 

Here in the land of china swedes, politics is all about america and BLM are living it. they have a hatred for the normie poor, point to the helsinki cathedral in the 1840s from the russian era saying "we built this, sweating blood from our backs, and we have the right to tear it all down".
No, i don't think that this promotes class consciousness or solidarity. I do feel privileged as someone to be exploded into pink mist in the next war ordered from the imperial core, though.
Suomi/comments/hcqo32/meillä_on_oikeus_rikkoa_nämä_talot/

 

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>>1863133
>If some White guy has a friend or family member that, I dunno, voted Trump, you demand that we completely cut them out of our lives to show solidarity for you.
Do it for your Lord anon.

 

>>1863840
> Therefore all white men, regardless of wealth, became the new "ruling class" and this wasn't ended until the mid 20th century
Somebody skipped their homework and unironically ate nazoid pseudohistory


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