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File: 1718157089059.png (971.78 KB, 680x680, 1629921445865.png)

 

>In Marxist theory, the Lumpenproletariat (German: [ˈlʊmpn̩pʁoletaˌʁi̯aːt] ; /ˌlʌmpənproʊlJˈtɛəriət/) is the underclass devoid of class consciousness. Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels coined the word in the 1840s and used it to refer to the unthinking lower strata of society exploited by reactionary and counter-revolutionary forces, particularly in the context of the revolutions of 1848. They dismissed the revolutionary potential of the Lumpenproletariat and contrasted it with the proletariat. Among other groups, criminals, vagabonds, and prostitutes are usually included in this category

>The Social Democratic Party of Germany made wide use of the term by the turn of the century. Vladimir Lenin and Leon Trotsky followed Marx's arguments and dismissed the revolutionary potential of the group, while Mao Zedong argued that proper leadership could utilize it. The word Lumpenproletariat, popularized in the West by Frantz Fanon's The Wretched of the Earth in the 1960s, has been adopted as a sociological term. However, what some consider to be its vagueness and its history as a term of abuse has led to some criticism. Some revolutionary groups, most notably the Black Panther Party and the Young Lords, have sought to mobilize the Lumpenproletariat

 

Free the working class by killing all lumpens

 

they tend to as a class be more open to anarchism or fascism, and can easily be bought off by capital

 

sounds fun

 

I am a lumpen and feed off the government tit
I have no feeling of solidarity with workers and even feel myself above them since im not a wagie in my cagie
I shoplift every day and fantasise about destroying property
I objectively am a stain on society and provide no worth
But in the end, this is just what i am. Hate me if you must.

 

>>1883469
more gibs equals more happy

 

post more chubby brown girl

 

I think y'all know nothing about them, Marx's take was accurate but not universal. Most of you have never met a lumpen, and you all tend to forget that not all lumpen are criminals. Anecdotally, I know far more class conscious lumpens than workers, most priles I know have petite bourgeois aspirations, most lumens I know are fairly aware of class structure just by virtue of being forced to see the contradictions first hand. Most of this board is too sheltered to drive a take that didn't come from some other sheltered bookish asshole.

 

>>1883694
>Most of you have never met a lumpen

How could I possibly have gone through my whole life never talking to someone who was unemployed or homeless or whatever

 

>>1883694
>Most of you have never met a lumpen
Lumpens only exist in theoretical labs in Marxist petri dishes!!!

 

>>1883700
It certainly does not exist as a solid.
Most people i think in this class drift between unemployment, selling their labour (for example warehouse or retail work where it is hard even to get contracted a livable amount of hours these days) and small scale petit-borgeoise work such as self-employed trades (example, painting and decorating, plastering, etc) and gig-work (such as Uber).
In some of our societies someone may be doing some (or all!) of these things in combination, for example in the USA it is cultural to have 2 or 3 jobs.

 

>>1883698
If that's a crazy thought, then you're not who I'm talking about.
>>1883700
I'm not familiar with the metaphor you're drawing from.
>>1883707
There are lifetime lumpen, but this is pretty accurate I think. Class positions float, but the interests of all under classes is always the disposal of the ruling class, even when they don't see it that way.

 

>>1883469
you're the one bought off by capital though

 

I think the homeless or autistic unemployed lumpens are usually very different from the criminal lumpen or the poor and rightoid variety.

 

I prefer to make as few enemies as possible, this shall include the lumpenproletariat. The criminals, prostitutes, and the scammers of the world have used capitalism to take advantage of an untapped and taboo market to make a profit, so not only should these markets be abolished by the labor and use of these people reallocated to productive labor. The next step would be mending the social and cultural divisions which have caused the lumpenproletarians position o become so popular and persistent, as crime usually passes down by family, the parent AND the child must be cured of the criminal ailment.

 

>>1883444
I think anyone that uses it nowadays, particularly to degrade or discredit anyone in particular or groups or people, are immediately suspect.

In my more than a decade of online social media fora usage, it is nearly always used to peddle liberal or reactionary garbage.

The term itself might be useful, both before and today, not discrediting that, but anyone who uses it is immediately suspect.

 

>>1883444
As automation displaces an increasing number of proletarians, the lumpen-proletariat class is going to expand in both size and significance.

 

Never seen anyone use it as an insult like some people here say. Yes criminals and grifters and violent idiots shouldn't be let into a communist party to wreck shit.

 

>>1883444
Well considering the lumpenproletariat became unflinching Chinese nationalists rather than communists, I think Mao was pretty wrong on that one. The more I learn about Mao the more I question why he's even brought in the same breath as other communists.

 

I think that within leftist circles there is too much romanticizing when it comes to illegalism, organized crime and lumpens when all throughout the 20th century and before that capitalists, capitalist states have as well as law enforcement and especially intelligence had a symbiotic relationship with organized crime in order to crush strikes, crush dissident, crush leftist organization, commit coups, justify surveillance and so on.

 

>>1883814
Yeah when people start going on about annihilating the degenerate anti-people elements they're often referring to gays instead of objectively reactionary lumpen like streamers.

>>1883826
I figure there was a class change involved. There's a movie from the 60s called "The Red Detachment of Women" about an escaped slave girl who joins the communists. Runaway slaves is a lumpen category. She fucks up too, is undisciplined, pops off, so part of the story is about her transformation into a disciplined communist soldier. Good movie.

>>1883469
Not to get all /isg/, but as much as I loathe the Infracels there unfortunately is a line of continuity between certain forms of anarchism and certain forms of fascism. That's not a slam dunk against anarchism or mean "anarchism is fascist" but you see where anarchism and syndicalism flirt with third positionism and fascism, especially in Italy and France. Or anarchists being into Thelema or chaos magic or whatever. Anything in the hard-insurrectionist individualist vein is in pretty dangerous waters. (Although reading the Infracels, I've seen them espouse views that are a lot like syndicalism even though they'll call themselves MLs so it turns into a pointing Spider-Mans thing)

 

If we ae to stimulate this discussion further, I consider much of the rural American culture lumpenproletariat. They achieve the desire of the proletarian to own their own means of production (they own the farm and produce crops, livestock, and animal byproduct, as well as owning all tools on the farm) however, the mostly agricultural proletarian has refused and disassociated with the industrial proles of the city, because of the identities of the industrial prole and the voting lines of American politics.
Industrial proles are more diverse, multicultural, and adaptive, as the rural American prole wants cultural homogeneity and legal philosophy to be entrenched within the homogenous culture of Protestant Christianity. This divide is exaggerated by party line voting. The industrial proletariat votes Democrat, which advocates for minor labor regulation and strong foreign policy, which moves capital out from rural regions into cities, until it ends at the international trade center. The republican party platform also moves capital out from rural areas into international trade, but provides a false sense of security for the rural American, as it provides the illusion that the rural American culture will halt and reverse the constantly changing, multifaceted and decades lasting problems caused by globalization.
Now to end this off, I recognize rural Americans do ote democrat, even in the modern day, although their numbers dwindle, and that the policy of a rural democrat is not equivalent to the urban democrat. I also recognize that the urban democrat has itself a growing and outspoken lumpenproletarian movement that disregards the rural American as stupid unwashed masses. This Lberal lumpenprole was lab-grown by rich upper-class proletarians who could afford college and learn surface level social justice from their sociology class. This idea spread out to Liberal writers in Hollywood as the age of the action movie hero and child-growing-up films of the 80s transitioned to the thriller era of the 90s and rebellion films of the late 2000s and early 2010s. Joe Biden's ascension to president has allowed the snob liberal lumpenproletariat ideology seep down to the lower middle-class liberal, coinciding with Trump voters embracing the politician as the Ubermensch.

 

>>1883841
>Yeah when people start going on about annihilating the degenerate anti-people elements they're often referring to gays instead of objectively reactionary lumpen like streamers.

critical support to hanging Agent Kochinski and Asmongold on lamp posts. Day of the Rope for self-entitled Gamers

 

>>1883814
Absolutely correct. It is an echo of the "masterless men" spook so feared by the Calvinists of the early Modern period, and always deployed by smarmy middle class people who think they should be emulated rather than punched.

 

underdeveloped concept kinda trash

 

https://www.marxists.org/history/erol/ncm-1/red-papers-2/franklin.htm

I shill this article whenever this question comes up and this thread is not an exception.

>The lumpenproletariat know what it is to be on the bottom, to be mashed into the gutter by the whole weight of an imperialist structure. They share the degradation of the wretched of the whole earth. At every moment two paths are possible for them. One is to turn their hatred against other victims, against each other, against themselves. They can put on the uniform of the U.S. Marines and butcher Vietnamese peasants, they can prey on their brothers and sisters in the streets, or they can shoot their own veins full of poison. The other path is the path of their own liberation.


>To reach this path it is necessary for them, like all of us, not only to become conscious of who our real enemies are but to realize that the only force capable of overthrowing them and destroying their rotten system is a grand alliance of all their victims. And one thing is sure for everybody: no class will be liberated while there still exists a class that can be called the lumpenproletariat.

 

>>1883444
class enemies
>>1884307
wishful thinking
lumpenproletariat like football ultras, mobsters, thieves and drug traffickers are often used to clandestinely suppress the working class. also the proletariat suffer the brunt of petty crime

 

>>1884307
Whoever wrote that is retarded and never interacted with a criminal or gangster.

t. brazilian

 

>>1884351
The author makes a clear distinction between thiefs, thugs and US soldiers from the other potential type of lumpem

 

>>1884342
>are often used to clandestinely suppress the working class

one of the reasons I like this essay is specifically because it acknowledges this:

>Fanon gives many specific examples of the counter-revolutionary role sometimes played by the lumpenproletariat. In Madagascar, the colonialists assisted in “the creation of a party out of the unorganized elements of the lumpenproletariat” and then used “its distinctly provocative actions” as “the legal excuse to maintain order.” (p. 93) In Angola, Algeria, and the Congo, the colonialists were able to use elements of the lumpenproletariat as soldiers, agents, laborers, and counterrevolutionary demonstrators. Fanon concludes from this not that the lumpenproletariat should be ignored, but quite the contrary: the real danger lies in depending on its spontaneity:


<Colonialism will also find in the lumpen-proletariat a considerable space for manoeuvering. For this reason any movement for freedom ought to give its fullest attention to this lumpen-proletariat. The peasant masses will always answer the call to rebellion, but if the rebellion’s leaders think it will be able to develop without taking the masses into consideration, the lumpen-proletariat will throw itself into the battle and will take part in the conflict – but this time on the side of the oppressor. And the oppressor, who never loses a chance of setting the uyghurs against each other, will be extremely skillful in using that ignorance and incomprehension which are the weaknesses of the lumpen-proletariat. If this available reserve of human effort is not immediately organized by the forces of rebellion, it will find itself fighting as hired soldiers side by side with the colonial troops, (p. 109)


>What makes all this particularly dangerous is that it may occur after the lumpenproletariat has fought on the side of the revolution and may therefore take the revolutionary forces completely by surprise. Fanon points out that the enemy relies on careful analysis to take advantage of any such opportunity:


<The enemy is aware of ideological weakness, for he analyzes the forces of rebellion and studies more and more carefully the aggregate enemy which makes up a colonial people; he is also aware of the spiritual instability of certain layers of the population. The enemy discovers the existence, side by side with the disciplined and well-organized advance guard of rebellion, a mass of men whose participation is constantly at the mercy of their being for too long accustomed to physiological wretchedness, humiliation, and irresponsibility. (109-110)


>It’s certainly not difficult to imagine a similar situation here, and we should be warned of the necessity of raising the consciousness of all those who join the struggle. The Black Panthers’ political education courses, based on intensive study of Mao and stressing an application to people’s immediate experience, here serves as a model. Many of their early recruits, although unaccustomed to reading and used to the life of a criminal, learned to serve the people with complete dedication. And, like Malcolm X, not only Eldridge Cleaver, but several other leaders of the Panthers are the “discharged jailbirds” which Marx sees as part of the lumpenproletariat.











>>1884351
>everyone under the legal definition of criminal has the same exact class status and relationships

brilliant analysis anon, would you happen to consider Lenin and Mao retarded as well?

>Lenin violently condemns those Bolsheviks who disassociate themselves from this by “proudly and smugly declaring ’we are not anarchists, thieves, robbers, we are superior to all this.” (“Guerilla Warfare,” Collected Works, XI, 220.) He attacks “the usual appraisal” which sees this struggle as merely ”anarchism, Blanquism, the old terrorism, the acts of individuals isolated from the masses, which demoralize the workers, repel wide strata of the population, disorganize the movement and injure the revolution.” (Works, XI, 216-17). Lenin draws the following keen lesson from the disorganized state of this struggle: it is not these actions “which disorganize the movement, but the weakness of a party which is incapable of taking such actions under its control.” (p. 219). The Bolsheviks must organize these spontaneous acts and “must train and prepare their organizations to be really able to act as a belligerent side which does not miss a single opportunity of inflicting damage on the enemy’s forces.”


>Mao’s basic analysis of the lumpenproletariat and of their possible role in the revolution is clear and simple:


<Apart from all these other classes, there is the fairly large lumpenproletariat, made up of peasants who have lost their land and handicraftsmen who cannot get work. They lead the most precarious existence of all . . . .One of China’s difficult problems is how to handle these people, Brave fighters but apt to be destructive, they can become a revolutionary force if given proper guidance. (“Analysis of the Classes in Chinese Society”).

 

Aren't most queer and autistic/neurodivergent people technically "lumpen?"

If that's the case, wouldn't being "anti-lumpen" count as queerphobia and ableism?

Could someone explain?

 

>>1884423
Don't care

 

>>1884423
Faggot, go back.

 

>>1884423
I mean it does
Lumpen is usually just what socially conservative socialists say when they mean gay people, homeless people, and blacks people
In fact, back in 2020 if you read an anti-lumpen thread on Leftypol it was usually thinly veiled racism and usually opposed to the BLM protests
Socialists claiming that they can’t be racist or bigoted is sort of like liberals making that claim, it’s silly white person shit

 

>>1884423
Germans are fucking idiots, that's all. The more deeply their and the Anglos' ideological idiocy is erased from the workers' movement, the sooner we can all go home and live as something other than workers.

 

File: 1718286015378.jpg (104.66 KB, 1140x692, GJNWZaSXsAADzUo.jpg)

Theyre in a position where they are essentially class mercenaries because thats how they survive. Hypothetically they can help movements but it must always be remembered that they are fluid in their allegiance.

 

>>1884606
>Ernst Jünger
Reported for reactionarism. You will enjoy all the pain and sacrifice you want when you are turned into the proletariat's rape hole.

 

>>1883841
>there unfortunately is a line of continuity between certain forms of anarchism and certain forms of fascism.
It's more that there's a commonality between these ideologies in terms of people using them to rationalize their antisocial violent fantasies. And in that respect they're not special, since you see people do the same with any ideology including liberalism and Marxism. ᴉuᴉlossnW and a lot of other fascists were communists before that.

 

>>1884653
No, actually, cutting up the entire management class including the NGO that employes your ass is the correct course of action.

 

>>1884486
>back in 2020 if you read an anti-lumpen thread on Leftypol it was usually thinly veiled racism and usually opposed to the BLM protests

4 years later and we still have cryptofash using that term to dogwhistle smh

 

File: 1718293967712.png (378.19 KB, 881x574, ClipboardImage.png)

>>1884700
It's the new pseudo-scientific way to say "undeserving poor" while hiding one's 19th-century English reactionary power level

 

>>1884423
I'm autistic but I ain't lumpen, it's just hard to get a job in 202 and I have a hard time planning. I do want labor to be the end and the means to a prospering society.

 

>>1884772
>202
Kys

 

lumpen is a kind of bullshit concept unless youre really specific in what you mean, because in many cases lumpen are created by bourgeois conditions, and victims of those conditions.

 

File: 1718300318268.png (26.1 KB, 360x202, ClipboardImage.png)


 

Nothing bullshit about the class relation of criminals swindlers etc.

 

>>1884808
The use of the proletariat is in this same vein.

 

>>1884808
Stirring the pot to try and confuse people the definition doesn't really work when Marx was pretty descriptive about them.
>The “dangerous class”, (lumpenproletariat) the social scum, that passively rotting mass thrown off by the lowest layers of the old society, may, here and there, be swept into the movement by a proletarian revolution; its conditions of life, however, prepare it far more for the part of a bribed tool of reactionary intrigue."
And a perfect real life example of this is the anti-communist death squads in Indonesia that were recruited directly from
>drug addicts
>drug lords
>petty criminals
>ect ect ect
Go watch the Act of Killing and see how they were "badasses" and still think they're badasses except for one guy who gets a little distressed decades after the fact. Wave some money in front of them and they'll gladly kill you and your family and your friends and your pets and your village…

That's who we're talking about, not "neurodivergent" people like some idiot above said.

 


 

>>1884808
it just means the declassed element of society which is unlikely to become class conscious due to its abject poverty, lack of education an misery beyond even the norm. So like a homeless person or a prisoner or a gang member or a drug dealer or a prostitute. I think the real problem with the lumpen is not the concept of them, but the demonization of them.

 

>>1883444
One time I was at the local socialist bookstore asking about what it was like to volunteer there, and a homeless indigenous woman barged in complaining about the display setup in the front supporting the struggle of the Palestinian people. I felt for the lady's deep contempt of the store's whiteness. What use is solidarity for Palestine when the indigenous are dying on the streets? But also the lady was pretty racist going on about the brown people selling crack.

 

>>1885910
I get what you mean about lumpenprole referring to the bad kind of non-working non-capitalists but substance-users are a kind of neurodivergent. Also a ton of reactionaries are neurodivergent (4chan for example.) More solidly, Christian Picciolini in Breaking Hate estimates about a third of the former fascists he has as clients are neurodivergent.

 

File: 1719544921034.png (12.82 KB, 814x1531, 1712315211212472.png)

are neets lumpen?
is a lack of class consciousness a defining feature of being lumpen? I'm failing to understand what the concept even means ova heuh and may ask more questions if someone answers

 

>>1897486
>I felt for the lady's deep contempt of the store's whiteness.
Why?
>What use is solidarity for Palestine when the indigenous are dying on the streets?
Two things can be bad at once. Per devil's advocate, how dare the bookstore sell material other than homeless advocacy?
>But also the lady was pretty racist going on about the brown people selling crack.
I work for a homeless shelter, it's typical of these individuals to hold strongly to reactionary believes, even though they're fucked by them the most.

>>1897551
>are neets lumpen?
They have the potential. From my understanding, a lumpen refers to members of the proles, and there may exist bourgeois lumpen.

 

>>1898138
Excuse me, I meant in the last sentence bourgeois neets.

 

>>1897551
yes NEETs are lumpen
Lumpenproletariat is the surplus-proletariat or "reserve army of labour"
Where they are sponsored by the state, they are given money to consume and so represent the commodity (and therefore use-value, like the worker), as opposed to the capitalist who represents exchange-value.
>>1898138
Yes. A lumpen-bourgeoisie is an untapped theoretical point. There is talk today of "excess elites" for example. I would agree generally that most should be proletarianised.

 

File: 1719575728740.png (622.76 KB, 2000x3391, ClipboardImage.png)

>>1898146
Hunter Biden is almost exactly lumpenbourg

 

>>1898150
also lumpenproles aren't the same thing as the RAOL.Lumpen would be the chronically unemployed. People with long time crime connections, beggars, etc. People who would have a lot of difficulty being drafted into the AOL.

 

>>1898162
I do agree that there is a certain "chandala" (untouchable caste) that we can call "surplus humanity", which in better ages were executed by the state, died in wars or of disease, which cannot be entered into civilisation.
Murderers, rapists, pedophiles; stuff like that. Calling them "lumpen" however seems to complicate relations of the lower class though.

 

>>1898146
>lumpen-bourgeoisie
>"excess elites"
Those are already heavily mobilised by the interests of capital, hence woke capital. Even the ones who claim to be socialists are still putting a lot more work into their chosen idpol causes than into worker interests.
>should be proletarianised
If you're going by the elite overproduction theory they would rather die than accept this, hence excess elites bring revolutions. The best you could do is insert worker interests into their social sphere. Try to make it the cool hipster issue to care about. Also try to associate all the woke capital issues with the established elite, such that the excess elites will develop an aversion to them.

 

>>1898211
Yes i agree that the faux patricians are fertile ground for revolution because of their stubbornness. But many also are just useless socialites who get by on begging. Even look at things like "cameo" where once-big celebrities are putting out birthday messages for a fee. Its prostitution, and therefore enters the sphere of the lumpen.

 

>>1898211
>The best you could do is insert worker interests into their social sphere.
How old are you?

 

>>1898217
>Its prostitution
Well yes, that's what I'm saying. They would rather be prostitutes than lose their bourgeois status. Many of them would probably rather die.
>useless socialites who get by on begging
Useless to society. Not necessarily useless to us. If they have a large enough audience to make a living off it then they also have influence.
>>1898221
Age isn't a factor, except to the extent that the younger generations have a larger percentage of lumpen bourgeois.

 

>>1898308
If tour in the business of preaching then fuck off and join the church.

 

>>1898314
No, I'd rather preach something that produces measurable results.

 

>>1898428
Then go sell widgets, faggot

 

>>1898447
That won't help proletarian interests, so no.

 

>>1898734
In that case kys is the only answer.

 

>>1898801
No, I will keep looking for groups to mobilise.

 

>>1883444
Fascists recruit their soldiers from the lumpen but lumpen are not essentially fascist.
Still, communists should endeavor to shift lumpen to the working class, so reducing the size of the lumpen class, and increasing the power of the working class.
The lumpen want to have a steady job, and not be precariously employed.
Basically, we need to do a basic amount of idpol for neurospicies, queers and PoC because when lumpen they may have little choice but to turn against us.

 

>>1899905
Also stuff like Communist collectively organized apprenticeships, trades training and upskilling sounds good to me.

 

>>1898146
Hot take! Historically, many (white) women were lumpenbourg. So you get reactionary feminism like recounted in "Why Would Feminists Trust the Police". It's not that women are essentially bourg. But lumpenbourg was the class position of many women at the time.

 

Also Karl Marx was lumpen.
Lumpen are both the most radical and reactionary elements of society.


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