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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internet about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
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Michael Hudson once pointed out in the 2nd edition of his book "Super Imperialism" that it was the state department glowies who was reading his book more than the working class, and they actually began to obfuscate economic statistics that revealed the extent of US imperialism after reading his book. So this phenomenon continues to this day.

And is this really any surprise? People will cope/seethe that the working class is so smart, powerful, strong, resilient, etc. Of course they are. They put up with so much. But they aren't superhuman. They don't have the free time or resources at their disposal to read all the theory in the world while simultaneously getting exploited. Meanwhile the bourgeoisie has all the free time and all the resources. So of course they're going to beat us to reading our own theory, and then use that theory to restructure their own strategies in advance. They're absorbing and accounting for our tactics before we have the chance.

How does the international working class get around this?

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>>1913790
Dude, there's no real tactics but proper organization. Organizaers should be learned in conspiracy and knowledgable in the ways of making organization propagate itself even if a part of it is destroyed. Organizers should know what kind of treachery will be employed, and by what kind of people. Organization should attack socdem institutions with the aim of isolating their leadership from the rank and file. Organizers have to be able to force wayward members to follow the line.

It's not even about the workers, it's just about combating liberalism and pointless activism. Like, officers in US military with marxist leanings are much more threatening to US than whatever intellectuals have conjured up. They go into the pit of reaaction and take out chunks of it

>>1914021
>organize into capitalist forms
Only PMC counterrevolutionaries thump this shibboleth. What is actually necessary is to disorganize the minds that organize bourgeois action, and that is the very same PMC that is trying to commandeer the workers' movement in order to form a dominant class. Absolutely no atrocity is unwarranted in preventing them from doing so.

>>1913790
>How does the international working class get around this?
Concoct brainworm theory to bait the bourgeoisie into acting stupid?

>>1913790
Is there super anti-imperialism too?

>>1914023
That's what I said

>attack socdem institutions with the aim of isolating their leadership from the rank and file

>>1914026
That would be internationalism. Multipolarism is just local nationalism.

Stop fucking writing then, you're literally supplying the enemy

>>1914076
Making money doing it too lol, literally getting paid by the enemy to advise them with a few extra steps.

>>1914076
>lets stop analyzing the world because it also help the enemy understand it
idiots

>>1914076
>>1914079
Oh look, the think tankies have woken up and they're buttmad that their game is being exposed

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>>1914023
>PMC trying to commandeer workers movement
ah, so lawyers like lenin, right? schizo

>>1914202
>worships dead men
>calls others schizo
You can grow up and join the ruthless criticism of ALL that exists anytime.

>>1914208
i'm ruthlessly criticizing you right now

>>1914502
criticize yourself, bitch

well thats where we come in anon. I dont think anyone really expects that we're somehow gonna get the entire working class hooked on reading 19th century economic treaties. I'm sure many ppl will fw the 19th century economic treaties since millions do to this day but how many christains do we know who are super well read in theological debates and bibical scholarship? Basically its up to communists like us to explain theory shit to people and connect to there daily life so they can start applying it themselves. you gotta put the social in socialism. This quote from the Workers of Tianjin has stuck with me ever since reading it:

>Yet it seems clear what mobilized workers in period of action was not an abstract commitment to revolutionary ideology, but the concrete possibility of doing something about the immediate conditions of their working lives. Marxism-Leninism came to the workers in the form of a teacher who taught them how to read, or a fellow worker who told them stories of the eighth route army.

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>>1913790
>dry economic academic writing meant only for non-proletarian academics, bourgeois economists and state department desk jockeys actually helped hone the system it flaccidly criticized
peak multipolarist praxis

>How does the international working class get around this?

Get around what? Not reading Hudson? I think they'll be fine without it. In regards to the incredibly conspiratorial paranoia of your OP, who cares? Like really, theory is nothing without practice and practice is nothing without theory. A person can come up with the most in-depth analysis of our system and show the dark bile-leaking heart of capitalism in their prose, it all means nothing if it does not lead to praxis. And the "theory" is only as good as the practice that forged it so something that appealed to the highest strata of bourgeois power rather than the masses and caused the keepers of said system to work to make it "better" (worse for the rest of us) is the ultimate counter criticism to the theorist themself.

This is why only China can help us at this point.

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>>1914524
>dry economic academic writing meant only for non-proletarian academics, bourgeois economists and state department desk jockeys actually helped hone the system it flaccidly criticized
it's not the fault of the people writing the theory, it's how the system is structured. An educated proletariat is considered dangerous. There's a reason America doesn't like its working class developing anything beyond basic literacy needed for work. The reason theory isn't widely read isn't because it's "dry" and lacks some kind of mystical poetry, the reason it isn't widely read is because the proletariat is kept uneducated. I don't understand why you would blame people like Hudson who spent years studying the specifics of US imperialism and writing a book about it.

>conspiratorial paranoia

How is it conspiratorial paranoia? The evidence was provided up front. Hudson wrote a book, and the working class didn't read it, and were probably not even made aware of it, and meanwhile the bourgeoisie did read it, and incorporate it into their own strategies. This is a real problem.

>theory is nothing without practice and practice is nothing without theory

no shit. the thread is asking how to write good advanced economic theory when the bourgeoisie has a monopoly on education and distribution of educational resources.

>peak multipolarist praxis

this thread isn't about that

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>People will cope/seethe that the working class is so smart, powerful, strong, resilient, etc. Of course they are. They put up with so much.
Well, that doesn‘t very smart to me. Also, how are proles powerful when they can‘t change their circumstances? In a later part you admit the bourgeoisie has all the resources, so that sounds like it‘s the bourgeoisie who are actually powerful. And how is the working class resilient when life expectancy for working class people is lower than for rich people? You think allowing yourself to get fucked over until you die means you are resilient? Lol.

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>>1914846
One, you are looking at the proletariat as a singular group. This is incorrect. There are educated proles and then not so educated proles. All this is dependent on many factors. The working class is not wholly one thing. There are sectors that are revolutionary and others that are not. Sectors that require more education than others. This outlook you have is workerism (no matter how much you acknowledge the working class's shortcomings).

Two, while it is true that the big bourgeoise gains more from having less educated workers it also reinforces a contradiction. As society progresses there will always be a requirement to have educated proles to work in fields in need of such education. As much as education can be cut, there will always be a necessity for education nonetheless. This will always lead to people picking up the theory books (or whatever is available, or just eventually retreading old ground). This also doesn't take into account certain proles (who might not be considered "educated") learning of their own accord due to unique circumstances that cannot be blanketed over with broad assumptions of a singular working class. The crux of your argument ignores the fact that capitalist society will always create the conditions for its destruction.

And three, on praxis and reaching out to the working class. Education is key, but what follows education is organization and practice. As I said above, a man can write bookshelves worth of critiques, theories, and polemics as dry or as fanciful as they come, none of it means anything if it isn't brought to the masses and tested in practice. Hudson wrote a book, its 30 bucks on Amazon. He is not head of a party nor is his book freely distributed. His background is one of economics and such his audience are people who share that interest. So, is it really a surprise that bourgeois economists and the neoliberal establishment would be more drawn by his work than the run of the mill Starbucks worker or construction worker (which also isn't to say a few or even many workers are not drawn to it, as his book's wide spread acclaim testify)? His "theory" is less theory and more analytical understanding of western imperialism and its history since ww2. While it is important to understand imperialism and the US's dominion over such things, it does not offer any remedy. There is no link to practice and his connection to economist circles make any remedy he supposes to be ultimately economistic. There are arguments to made that the link is what communists make of it in their own education/organization/practice, so the ultimate problem here is not wide spread education (or lack of), but of organization, of reaching out to the masses and forging refined theory through that practice.

>>1914529
Why not help yourself?

>>1915130
Why not help China help us help ourselves :^)

>>1915117

>There are educated proles and then not so educated proles.

The majority are kept uneducated, and even the educated ones are deliberately kept uneducated on political matters. You know how many people are great at math and science but don't have an ounce of class consciousness? Ever wonder why it's so much easier to organize an amazon warehouse than a software development team?
> There are sectors that are revolutionary and others that are not. Sectors that require more education than others.
Some hypothesize that the revolutionary nature of a sector of labor correlates with its education, while others hypothesize that it correlates with its immiseration. I hypothesize that it correlates specifically with political education + immiseration. If you're not miserable and also politically educated, you're unlikely to organize. A lot of people are politically educated but lack the misery that drives them to organize or die. A lot of people are miserable but lack the political education. A lot of people are educated in a way that has nothing to do with politics. Like the type of person who knows 5 programming languages and how write a good resume, and how to maintain an immaculate LinkedIn account. Well that person is educated, but not necessarily politically educated.
>Workerism
As in operaismo or something else?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workerism
I might not be familiar with the way in which you're using this word. Do you just mean I'm vulgarly upholding workers or something?
>As much as education can be cut, there will always be a necessity for education nonetheless.
Maybe. But there ought to be a distinction between political education which reinforces class consciousness and "apolitical" education which teaches bourgeois aspiration and suppresses class consciousness. There's a lot of the latter. And maybe failure will eventually teach them that they're wrong, but will they take away the right lesson? Will the medical student who dreams of opening up their own practice realize it's impossible under capitalism, or will they just conclude that they didn't work hard enough? Will they get amnesia about capitalism crushing them and instead blame themselves as they've been taught to?
>This will always lead to people picking up the theory books (or whatever is available, or just eventually retreading old ground).
Always? That's very confident. I hope you're right but I suspect there are other counter-revolutionary paths people can go down.
> The crux of your argument ignores the fact that capitalist society will always create the conditions for its destruction.
The crux of my argument is it's capable of absorbing and adapting to critique because it's capable of change. I look at past "modes of production" and they didn't really get "destroyed" in some cataclysmic revolutionary moment, nor were they even totally phased out through reformism. They just took a back seat. There are still elements of feudalism and slavery, even in modern society, such as the slavery of America's penal system, or the continued existence of royal families in several nations, or the "neofeudal" rent seeking behavior of capital adapting to TRPF. There are even societies still practicing "primitive communism" like the Sentinelese. Capitalism is the dominant mode of production, but there are still elements of past modes of production coexisting within capitalist society. And capitalist society might be gestating socialism, but when socialism is "born" will capitalism die immediately and completely or will it simply cease to be dominant (and I'm not suggesting "Dengism" or whatever I've seen you take issue with in other threads, I'm just making observations).
>And three, on praxis and reaching out to the working class. Education is key, but what follows education is organization and practice. As I said above, a man can write bookshelves worth of critiques, theories, and polemics as dry or as fanciful as they come, none of it means anything if it isn't brought to the masses and tested in practice. Hudson wrote a book, its 30 bucks on Amazon. He is not head of a party nor is his book freely distributed. His background is one of economics and such his audience are people who share that interest. So, is it really a surprise that bourgeois economists and the neoliberal establishment would be more drawn by his work than the run of the mill Starbucks worker or construction worker
Capital wasn't freely distributed when Marx wrote it either and workers still took an interest in it. And workers take an interest in Hudson. I was recommended Hudson by a co worker when talking about imperialism. The point here is that because working class theorists perform the labor or writing theory, and rely on getting paid for that labor to survive, and publishing companies dictate the terms of distribution, the bourgeoisie always have a high ground in terms of access to theory, absorbing its ideas, and incorporating it into their own strategies. They can do it faster and more easily, because they have more access to resources. It's about an advantage, not about a failure of the theorist to run around giving their work away for free. I'm wondering how to make up for this disadvantage the workers have.

> His "theory" is less theory and more analytical understanding of western imperialism and its history since ww2. While it is important to understand imperialism and the US's dominion over such things, it does not offer any remedy. There is no link to practice and his connection to economist circles make any remedy he supposes to be ultimately economistic. There are arguments to made that the link is what communists make of it in their own education/organization/practice, so the ultimate problem here is not wide spread education (or lack of), but of organization, of reaching out to the masses and forging refined theory through that practice.

I only cited Hudson because he pointed out a more broadly existing problem in the 2nd edition preface of his own book, i.e. the departments bought his book and obfuscated the statistics that made US imperialism obvious. This kind of tactical response to theory is possible with anyone. Indeed it happened in response to Marx writing Capital. When Marx wrote Capital, Capital responded by abandoning the bourgeois LTV embraced by Smith/Ricardo early bourgeois economists, and moved over to subjective theories of value in order to obfuscate exploitation. Any exploitation pointed out by a theorist, the bourgeoisie responds by obfuscating and hiding. This is true whether you agree the particular work counts as theory or not.

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ITT

>>1915259
>The point here is that because working class theorists perform the labor or writing theory
(by working class theorists I don't mean the theorists themselves are working class but write about the working class), I really don't want to get bogged down in that side discussion of PMC shit so I'm just saying this now

>>1915117
You should go back to your ancom flag tbh

>>1915261
>Marxists hating on Marx
Many such cases!

>>1915379
>Marx hating on Marxists
Also many such cases!

>>1915379
>>1915381
Marx himself did not grasp the depth of his own genius and the breadth of its applications.

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>>1913790
>They're absorbing and accounting for our tactics before we have the chance.
Have they stopped destroying the environment, the declining rate of profit, and war with each other?

Just wait because American leaders are incompetent.

Communists should represent the vanguard of the working class, not it's average

capitalists are a tiny minority, hopelessly globally outnumbered by workers. we have the numbers. use that to your advantage.


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