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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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File: 1730275863852.png (253.36 KB, 500x357, ClipboardImage.png)

 

how did Maoists in the west react to the Nixon and Mao visits and later trade agreements

>>2004523
Many of them an hero'd.

>>2004534
According to Norman Finkelstein a few did kill themselves, he held out longer believing this was a genius ploy by Mao but when the gang of four was arrested, he had a mental breakdown and was bed ridden for 3 weeks

>>2004539
>when the gang of four was arrested, he had a mental breakdown and was bed ridden for 3 weeks
I honestly probably would've killed myself if this happened to me

>>2004523
Comedy is subjective, Murray. Isn't that what they say?

>>2004523
They become Gonzaloids

According to Mark Rudd, it was essentially a massive ego death. They had basically hyped up Mao as the one and only Communist figure who would liberate all oppressed races, and then the Nixon-Mao talks took place and It devastated them in an almost religious sense, they simply gave up

>>2004592
>>2004539
Here's the actual text
>Those not wondering what a Maoist is wonder how I could have been one. It’s a historical moment that has vanished without a trace.
>In the early 1970s, when I came of age politically, the U.S. government was raining death on Vietnam abroad and hunting down Black militants at home. The system manifestly required more than a little tinkering to be set right. Anyhow, I had committed myself not just to a reformed world but a world turned upside down. For all its Marxist pretences, Russia seemed to resemble the United States. The grey-on-grey of Soviet-style socialism didn’t exactly fire the imagination. On the other hand, China appeared on the brink of ushering in a new world. Those coming back from Maoist China echoed the writer Lincoln Steffens on his return from Lenin’s Russia: “I have seen the future, and it works.” From Chairman Mao down to the ordinary worker and peasant, everyone seemed to be practicing a simple, austere lifestyle, contemptuous of bourgeois amenities and devoted to a larger collective purpose. I still remember the sense of moral inferiority on my first sighting of a real-life exemplar of this “new socialist man” from China (in fact, a woman, Carmelita Hinton, daughter of famed Maoist author William Hinton) at a left-wing conference in New York. Shamed by my bourgeois baggage, I decided against introducing myself to her.
>Maoism seemed irrefutable proof of an alternative to the rat-race existence. To cynics who maintained that creating a society based on non-acquisitive values was utopian, I replied: Look at China! It was even said that petty theft had disappeared. Bicycles weren’t chained up, lost items were returned. While I was taking a nap late one winter’s night in my college student centre, someone stole my brand new work shoes from, literally, right under my feet. Furious at the theft and having had to walk home barefoot in the slush, the next day in my Chinese foreign policy class I indignantly declared, “This wouldn’t have happened in China!” Many of my classmates no doubt silently thought that it served this self-righteous ass**** right.
>The precepts of Chinese Communism mirrored my own of a decent society. Prime Minister Chou En-Lai always had pinned to his lapel the button, “Serve the people.” Praising the wisdom and dignity of ordinary workers, a Mao quotation declared that the “workers and peasants were the cleanest people, and even though their hands were soiled and their feet smeared with cow-dung, they were really cleaner than the bourgeois and petty-bourgeois intellectuals.” A sports meet in China would open and close with the chant, “Friendship first, competition second.” The eyes of a sceptical female co-worker of mine lit up when I quoted Mao’s aphorism, “Women hold up half the sky.” In one parable I emotionally recited, Mao wrote, “Death can be weightier than Mount Tai or lighter than a feather. To die for the people is weightier than Mount Tai, but to die for the fascists and oppressors is lighter than a feather.”
>What clinched my disenchantment was the increasing sterility of Bettelheim’s, and my own, “problematic.” After Mao’s death, his heirs, the “Gang of Four,” were in short order dethroned, and his legacy was dismantled. The theory of socialist transition, on which I intended to write my doctoral dissertation, seemed more than ever divorced from reality. In addition, the rapid collapse of Maoism forced me to rethink many of my beliefs. There must have been a lot more rot at the core of the Chinese Revolution than I was led—and allowed myself to be led, and led others—to believe. What hurt most for someone who thought he knew so much was how foolish he had been. I remember one non-believer telling this true believer that, before I ever got to China, there would be a McDonald’s at the Great Wall. I sneeringly dismissed his “petty-bourgeois” cynicism. (He in turn recoiled at being labelled merely a “petty” and not a full-fledged bourgeois.) Well, a McDonald’s did open for business at the Great Wall while I lost all interest in making pilgrimage to China. In fact, from the day the Gang of Four was overthrown to this day I’ve not opened a single book or read through to the end a single news article on China. The wound runs deep, the pain lingers. For the first three weeks after the coup I could barely make it out of bed. I was later told that Bettelheim had to be hospitalized. Whether, in my case, this was due more to disappointment or embarrassment, I cannot say. In any event, I learned an important, albeit excruciating, lesson: de omnibus dubitandum (Marx’s credo).

>>2004534
how mfs felt

>>2004523
a lot of maoists became hoxhaists around this time, i wonder if there's a connection

>>2004665
Anecdotal but I met a former CPUSA member who taught English during the Cultural Revolution. When Mao disarmed the mobilized masses at the end of the January Storm, this guy lost all faith communism, and returned to the US. Now he's a massive shitlib voting blue no matter who, but weirdly will still praise Cultural Revolution as the one moment in his life where he saw people working together for no other reason than they thought it was the right thing to do.

>>2004928
I'm willing to bet this guy has some identity issues

>>2004523
Like idiots

>>2004928
>>2004665
I guess the moral of the story is you should put your faith in what’s in front of you, rather than hoping for some perfect savior to come from above and lead you to glory.

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With regards to Nixon, it's worth nothing that Nixon's worldview of politics was influenced by early 20th century British historiography, his parents were Anglophiles and literally named Nixon and his brothers after English kings, he has also personally studied Churchill religiously and actually believed in the concept of Anglo-American civilisation and so he regarded the USSR and China as great powers, rather than just 'commies' and that's how he approached them
Also Picrel is the US Secret Service Uniform under his tenure(he wanted to make them more regal)

>>2004665
>I still remember the sense of moral inferiority on my first sighting of a real-life exemplar of this “new socialist man” from China (in fact, a woman, Carmelita Hinton, daughter of famed Maoist author William Hinton) at a left-wing conference in New York.
Huh. Interesting. I like reading about such people.

>What clinched my disenchantment was the increasing sterility of Bettelheim’s, and my own, “problematic.” After Mao’s death, his heirs, the “Gang of Four,” were in short order dethroned, and his legacy was dismantled.

Yeah that happened a few years later. From what I've read, some Maoists accepted the meeting with Nixon as the American imperialists basically giving in. I think there is a case to be made for that in some kind of Machiavellian way. Lenin said something similar when the Soviet Union entered into trading relations with some capitalist states in the 1920s (I can't recall which ones, maybe France) and there were cadre who were really upset by that, but Lenin was like "no, this is them admitting they've failed." On the other hand, that may have concealed some desperation at their isolation and the situation they were actually in.

>In any event, I learned an important, albeit excruciating, lesson: de omnibus dubitandum (Marx’s credo).

Good lesson.

>>2004928
>Now he's a massive shitlib voting blue no matter who, but weirdly will still praise Cultural Revolution
>>2004937
>So he went from a shitlib to a shitlib?
Mao: the world's greatest liberal revolutionary. I heard a leftcom joke that the word "combat" in "Combat Liberalism" turned into an adjective instead of a verb means the same thing.

>>2004523
For most western Maoists parties at the time this was the final nail in the coffin, For the few who remained Mao asking western Maoists to support NATO was the complete end.

>>2004928
I cry evrytim

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>>2004946
There's some cultural context, after the Second World War there was a Western leftist disillusionment with the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc and this led to the abandonment of the traditional communist parties in the West and more people going to universities than ever, and there ML was rejected and new theories were invented and this all came ahead during the Vietnam War protests. From this emerged the hippies, second-wave feminists, queer theorists, and other diverse movements and intellectuals who still dominate academia today, but the strongest and most radical were the Maoists, according to Mark Rudd there was an obsession with Mao and Che and the concept of people's war, they believed that if a group had enough revolutionary spirt, they could defeat any army in the world.
The Weather Underground's were advised by the Vietnamese communists to build a broad anti-war movement rather than commit acts of terrorism and WU took that as proof that the Soviets had corrupted Vietnamese, this mass delusion lasted until the Nixon-Mao talks, after which it basically destroyed them all, in their minds Mao had personally betrayed them
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Left

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Briefly going through Marxists.org of fringe Maoist groups in the 70s, because you can find different points of view from "Nixon goes to China on his hands and knees!" to "workers will smash the betrayal of the revisionist clique of Mao Zedong and Zhou Enlai!"
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=8859-1&oe=8859-1&as_occt=body&num=25&sitesearch=www.marxists.org%2F&as_epq=Nixon+Mao&as_oq=&as_q=&as_eq=&as_occt=all&btnG=Google+Search%21

>One might say, “Well, the CCP is doing this because they are also threatened by the Soviets. They don’t want to be squeezed on two fronts.” Never in the history of the world have alliances with bosses led to anything but disaster. During W.W. II the Soviets allied with the U.S. to defeat Hitler. But, in the end, the Soviets became bosses themselves. Capitalism exists in Germany. And all of eastern Europe has become a bastion of capitalism.


Though I really wanna find a Maoist group who though this could get Nixon on the side of Communism

Its funny I remember the anarchist in Spain doing the same, or at least exporting goods.

>>2005132
every socialist experiment will have to deal with import and export, until such time all of them are merged into a single global communist economy

reminder that Mao never read Capital

>>2005441
To read books is harmful

>>2005150
>communism is about le experimenting
It either was a DotP, which still has a capitalist mode of production at first obviously, or it wasn't.
You're kidding yourself if you think China ever was one.

>>2004949
>As a Georgetown University student, Dicks was chosen to ask a question of President Richard Nixon, and in commenting to reporters on the President's reply said that "monarchy was the superior form of government." Nixon's aides had been unaware of Dicks' political beliefs.[3]
LMAO

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>>2004523
>>2004665
I wonder if all the Maoists who have ever thought of Mao's socialism as the REAL socialism unlike that dirty bureaucratic Soviet socialism ever asked themselves what the stars on the Chinese flag represented.

>>2004949
Imagine a Nixon dynasty.

>>2004539
Finkelstein clearly has Asperger's so he's not really a good example of typical leftist behaviours.

>>2005852
TBF Mark Rudd also mentioned people were experiencing panic attacks and there was a lot of mass hysteria and crying

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>>2005825
In fact, it was suggested by the designer that the four small stars represent the working class, the peasantry, the urban petty bourgeoisie, and the national bourgeoisie.
However, there is no official definition specifying which classes the four stars specifically represent.



其实是设计者给出的说四颗小星代表工人阶级、农民阶级、城市小资产阶级和民族资产阶级

但官方没有明确的定义四颗星具体指什么阶级

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>>2005070
>Though I really wanna find a Maoist group who though this could get Nixon on the side of Communism
Nixon was despised by Western leftists, even if he turned to a committed socialist later in life, they would never accept him, The group that actually thought Nixon of being a communist was the a right-wing paramilitary funded by the FBI "Secret Army Organization". Unlike the WU, they were actually considered a threat to national security and G. Gordon Liddy had a plan to kidnap them and dump them in Mexico if they attempted an attack on the 1972 RNC

>>2005946
>>2005825
They propbably just looked nice.
IDK why you people are always sperging about the meaning of the number of stars like schizos why on earth would you just work under any assumption other than it was a stylistic choice that maybe got some post-hock rationalisation?

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>>2006139
The Secret Army Organization was a RW Para-Military group that split off from another RW Para-Military group whose leader was arrested for illegal weapons stockpiling and planning to commit acts of terror, the SAO was very small(no more then 30 members) but all those of members were Veterans and the FBI thought it could be a good use to use these wackos to beat up hippies
>The A.C.L.U. alleged that when the F.B.I. set up the Secret Army Organization here in 1971, in advance of the Republican convention, it chose as one of its two leaders Howard B. Godfrey, a former San Diego fireman, elder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter‐day Saints and, for three years, an F.B.I. informer in the Minutemen. Mr. Godfrey testified at the 1973 trial of another member of the Secret Army Organization who was convicted ofd bombing a motion picture theater that the F.B.I. furnished him or paid for $10.000 to $20.000 worth of weapons and explosives for the so‐called Secret Army Organization over. a period of five years. As a member of the Minutemen and later the Secret Army Organization, he said he was paid about $250 a month by the bureau. In addition to the F.B.I.'s direct control over the Secret Army, the White House allegedly maintained contact with the group through Donald H. Segretti, who was later convicted for directing a campaign of political espionage and sabotage against the Democrats in 1972. Mr. Segretti was quoted by the A.C.L.U. as having told the Secret Army that any potential troublemakers at the 1972 Republican convention would be “gotten rid of,” an apparent reference to the so-called Liddy plan described during the Senate Watergate hearings, whereby the leaders of anti‐Nixon elements would be kidnapped and taken to Mexico. The plan was devised by G. Gordon Liddy, former counsel of the Committee for the Re‐election of the President, who was convicted of conspiracy, burglary and wiretapping in the Watergate case.

>>2006141
Symbolism is a really big part of flag design Anon, the entire point is for the flag to demonstrate some characteristic of the country that its leaders consider important and essential to its character.

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>>2004534
>>2004539
Lol if this is true how do turd world moasists like Jason Unruhe still exist? Like what mental gymnastics does he have to go through everyday in order to justify his beliefs.
>>2005946
Lol sounds more like fascist italy and nazi germany than any socialist state. Is the PRC the continuation of the fascist tradition?

>>2006660
Fascism is slippery, but I’d say personally I doubt the PRC are fascist in any meaningful sense. Rather they’re acting in a rational rather than ideological manner—which may align at times with what fash could claim to want.

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>>2006660
>Lol sounds more like fascist italy and nazi germany than any socialist state. Is the PRC the continuation of the fascist tradition?
Nice try Keef

>>2006660
I don't get why you libertarians keep saying "turd world" thinking this doesn't immediately expose you as a reactionary, chicano white-supremacist.

>>2006672
That's why I try to normalise para-Fascist, it's much easier to define and to apply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Para-fascism#

>>2006660
>Lol if this is true how do turd world moasists like Jason Unruhe still exist? Like what mental gymnastics does he have to go through everyday in order to justify his beliefs.
it's a fanom for him retard.
He's not politically active, he isn't in a party, he isn't part of campaigns in his community. he has no relationship with politics.

>>2006672
>Fascism is slippery, but I’d say personally I doubt the PRC are fascist in any meaningful sense.
A thing to keep in mind is that Chinese society is much less militaristic than the United States is. Like, from what I can tell… there's a whole lot of Chinese parents who don't want their kid to go into the military, it's not seen as particularly prestigious compared to the United States. The U.S. is actually a very militaristic society and you see politicians trying to use their military careers as leverage in politics. Militaristic spectacles at athletic events, it goes on.

>Rather they’re acting in a rational rather than ideological manner

I think Chinese are generally very pragmatic. There are strong elements of conservatism in Chinese politics and it stems from Confucianism among other sources, but that also works against extremes, holds that humans are basically good, and that war is not an optimal way to solve problems, but is rather an abnormal state of affairs caused by blinded human nature.

This isn't really a thread about fascism, but I think the emphasis on militarism and war is central to it. It didn't work by a fixed doctrine and you can basically scrap whatever plans they wrote down about the economy because they didn't follow their own plans.

The history of China, USSR, Vietnam and ect give validity to the claims of leftcoms. You get one, maybe two good leaders before the whole thing collapses into revisionism, if it doesn't immediately fall to that in the first place. Most of this seems to stem from collaboration with rightist forces, like Mao's reactionary phase at the end of his life or Stalin gutting the international socialist movement to try and build favor with the capitalist world (betraying Spain and destroying the Comintern).
>but where's the PRAXIS
That's what I'm talking about. The PRAXIS of rightist communism always leads to markets. Even Stalin wrote "On the Final Victory of Socialism in the U.S.S.R." which was basically just a command to embrace being an ultra.

>>2007236
>Stalin gutting the international socialist movement to try and build favor with the capitalist world (betraying Spain and destroying the Comintern).
Spain betrayed itself, all that was holding it up was soviet assistance, and he cancelled the Communist international during the great patriotic wars because he thought that forcing communist parties to support the soviet union through fiat was bad for them.

>>2007236
>You get one, maybe two good leaders before the whole thing collapses into revisionism
The USSR remained the revolutionary vanguard of the world proletariat pretty much until Glasnost. Leftcoms, Maoists, Hoxhaists, Trots, anarchists and all other left anti-communists can gargle my salty balls about it.

>>2006963
>>2006982
I broadly agree, but of course that also makes Mosley the odd man out (presuming his foreign policy was what he said it was) in terms of militarization. Which leads me to wonder if Fascism even has similar policies across its incarnations

>>2006982
Fascism came from the Left-Interventionists of WW1 Italy, this is accurate

>>2006982
>>2007338
Fascism is at its core organised state violence without restraint, It can only function with Total war which cannot be sustained, The USSR, Cuba and China cannot be compared to that, you can argue that they aren't "proper Communist" but they wouldn't be Fascist, simply due to the fact they didn't end in mass violent bloodshed
Vidrel is unironically one of the best video's I've seen on Fascism, cause it's by a rightist who actually read Fascist texts and recognised it's obvious issues

>>2007365
>>2007364
>>2007338
>>2006982
Guys it's not complicated, it's just anti-communist autocracy.

>>2007369
That's literally what we were concluding with

Well, in Peru they hung dogs from lampposts and boiled babies, very normal mautist reaction imo.

>>2007379
Shining Path and Pol Pot should be classified as essentially cults rather then political groups

>>2005046
I always saw the 4 star/ New democracy shit as just Mao applying Marx and Lenin's notion of winning the battle for democracy but to a semi-fuedal and semi-colonial context

>>2007236
>collaboration with rightist forces
I've noticed a similar pattern where right wing nationalists/religious traditionalists and commies often end up on the same side during anti-colonial and national liberation struggles, which if anything shows how absurdly evil imperialism is that people who would normally be fighting a civil war against eachother have to fight a common foe. KMT and CPC being the most famous example I know of

>Mao's reactionary phase at the end of his life

wait what? where does one read about this?

>>2007381
Ideological fanaticism only looks cultish to someone who lacks a revolutionary passion, Pol Pot and Chairman Gonzalo were heroes

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>>2006139
>>2006148
One funny thing is that the Right-Wing nut job Robert DePugh probably read Mao and Che more then the average western Maoist, DePugh "Principles of Guerrilla Warfare" did reference Mao but he understood how that method wouldn't quite work in a US urban environment, instead that forming an insurgency under threat of infiltration that each member should
>a) Only know a maximum of four other individuals involved with the insurgency
>b) know absolutely nothing about those four other individuals, not even their names

>>2007292

On day Sabocat, you are going to slip right through your asshole and break your fucking on the kosygin-liberman reform.

Revisionism, not even once.

>>2007485
t. left anti-communist

>>2006672
>rational
Nice spook anon, explain what you mean by that.

>>2006660
Third worldists are pro-Lin Biao and believe that Mao made mistakes in the early 70s

>>2007398
>Sorelian who likes Pol Pot and Gonzalo
When are you going to tell us how to become Nazi vampire pedophiles?

>>2007384
collaboration is a strong word, many communist governments didn't have any power or men in these situations, but tried to support national liberation the best they could

>>2007379
Doing all of that to finally accept the importance of elections.
SAD!
https://www.bbc.com/mundo/noticias-america-latina-40856626

>>2009816
>national liberation
the only thing they liberated is national capital from having to deal with foreign capital

>>2010345
I understand, you only want to appeal to pretentious idiots

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True National Maoism

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maoism is fascistic to the core and naturally anti–communistic. it is a class-collaborationist movement that considers the bourgeois democratic insitution painted red the highpoint of socialist development. it is personalistic and and hooliganistic, wishing away all means of building a subset of party-aligned proletarians through legal and semi-legal institutions like syndicates youth organizations student groups etc in favor of an immediate but never concluding insurgency. it perfectly aligns with gladio and us-anticommunism at best as a spoiler for leninists and associated parties and at worst a rabid anti-communist armed force doing what far right militias did before, but leftistly (see cambodia and peru). maoists are whores of natoism. they stand directly opposed to marxism and scientific socialism in the camp of sorelism and ᴉuᴉlossnWsm. i'm from leningrad and i say kill 'em all.

>>2025746
agreed

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>>2025746
>He was a terroristic piece of shit but he was a more interesting character than any U$ president$ to come after
Nixon was an ugly, paranoid freak which makes him one of the more awesome presidents for storytellers. He was venal, prejudiced, schizo, self-pitying, and had a weird ugly nose and a strange voice. Not some glossy charming blow-up doll grinning happily as he's puppeted by the hand of capital up his ass like most modern presidents.

>>2025749

>Nixon was a revolutionary taken down by the reactionary US deep state with Watergate
Nixon was nastier than the deep state and tossed out Richard Helms for refusing to block the Watergate investigation and replaced him with some crony.

>>2025938
Because deep down you hate the idea of having a relationship with your neighbors

>>2021509
>maoists are whores of natoism
Elden Ring dialog is like:

>>2004665
>a McDonald’s did open for business at the Great Wall while I lost all interest in making pilgrimage to China

>>2004665
This is like when weeaboos say no crime happens in Japan

>>2021509
I have read Mobo Gao's The Battle for China's Past and he is a self-professed Maoist who engages with Chinese sources.
From this I think youre sorta on the right track, though it is less "revision to his class collaborationism" and more "denunciation of class collaborationism after its period of strategic usefulness had ended." Mao is viewed as a socialist revolutionary who allied with feudal-bourgeois elements in an anti-imperialist revolution leaving the communist party holding power. In his period of leadership he is understood to have pushed for more socialist elements and opposed introduction of market incentives and western managerial techniques. He is viewed, in hindset, to have predicted wrongly which imperialist power was the greater threat, but otherwise the cultural revolution and its policies (supporting international revolution, decommodifying essential services and making them availible in rural areas, promoting more workers and peasants to higher positions, maintaining a "socialism under siege" mentality) are upheld, if seen as failing to achieve their negation-goals like attacking the bureaucracy. Deng is loathed for tearing apart late-Maoist society and replacing it with essentially 1950s Maoism, and one of the big failings of Mao according to Maoists is not purging the nationalist-bourgeois elements of the party harder

>>2004523
It's important to remember that Maoism in general has little to do with Mao or his policies. Maoism in North America in particular is a loose coalition of assorted opportunists, Feds, and vulgar ethno-racial nationalists that would be expelled by any Communist party worthy of the name. In China, the leadership of the CPC isn't interpreted as a clean break in 1978 but a continuation of policies that Mao himself instituted.

>>2026397
a friend of mine who lived there and etc told me a lot of murders are ruled as suicides and they have a crazy high conviction rate, one of the highest, which is usually not a good sign wrt to actual criminal-justice.

>>2032034
The Tang law code still has some power through sheer inertia, and in that code a person can't be convicted unless they understand what they did wrong which means a lot of what would be done in the trial in most systems of law is done before the trial by the investigation.

>>2032034
yeah just watch a few Japanese crime videos on YouTube.

>>2032049
There are some famous cases in the Tang law code of people being let off over cutting down trees in protected forests.
It's not wrong it's different. I'd rather go through a Chinese court than a Roman or Anglo court because of it.

>>2031985
Most contemporary accounts do not mention at all that Mao was popular because he was seen as hip and because he was a non-white figure.

>>2021509
>>2026967
It's actually interesting to compare Maoism to Stalinism, Stalin's rule was far more chaotic than anticommunists prefer to depict that era with the Party as some overpowering force. It was a lot of social chaos. Large parts of the USSR were more or less frontier towns plagued by bandits who had been expropriated ex-kulaks. It would not be rare to be working on a collective farm and coming under an armed attack. Some of the most vigorous Stalinist types who spoke up to denounce people as traitors and counter-revolutionaries (doing so to save their own skin) also ended up becoming suspect later on and were often sent to gulags or eliminated, since there was no official policy on how Stalin should be viewed most people could just have liked from liking him marginally more than Nicholas II to worshipping him as hard as the Japs worshipped the Emperor. believing they wouldn't have won the war otherwise cause he was a divine leader

>‘It’s worse in the army than doing forced labour on the Baikal railway,’ one soldier grumbled to his mates. Some harked back to the Red Army in its democratic years in the early 1920s, when they talked to officers as equals and treated orders as the signal for a general debate. The memory rankled like a broken promise. The Soviet army was supposed to be comradely and open. It did not use barking NCOs. Instead junior officers, backed up (or undermined) by political representatives, were charged with drill and training. The results were predictable. ‘If they send me to the front,’ remarked a young recruit as he contemplated mobilization for Finland, ‘I’ll sneak off into the bushes. I won’t fight, but I will shoot unit commander Gordienko.’ ‘As soon as we get to the front,’ one deserter said, ‘I’ll kill the deputy politruk.’ ‘Red Army discipline is worse than under the old tsarist regime,’ the older veterans complained. The young heard all of this and learned. ‘We’ll only get leave when we’re dead.’


>Among the Red Army, attitudes towards the nation’s leader were complex and various. Many soldiers avowed less respect for him than their respective front commanders. ‘Stalin won the war, but he was responsible for so many deaths,’ said Corporal Nikolai Ponomarev. Major Fyodor Romanovsky of the NKVD was unsurprisingly a passionate admirer: “He saved the Soviet state. He possessed a very good mind and picked good people. Stalin destroyed our traitors and malingerers. We were real communists in those days.’


>Yet for every party zealot there were those whose families had suffered badly at the hands of Stalin. Nikolai Senkevich, a Red Army doctor, often asked himself: ‘Is there no one to rid us of this cannibal?’ His father had died in the Gulag after being convicted of hoarding flax seed. His brother had served ten years in a labour camp for ‘political crimes’. Corporal Anna Nikyunas said: ‘We were fighting for our country, not for Stalin. To be honest, in the trenches, the last thing we thought about was Stalin.’


>But repression alone could not have achieved the state’s triumph: it also commanded real support among most ordinary citizens. Such people’s motives were more positive than fear. ‘Life is getting better,’ the huge posters told them. Inch by inch, for millions, it was. With Europe and America in economic depression, the Soviets could boast full employment and rapid growth. A village boy who sought work in the towns would not be looking long. For the young, the prospects started to look bright. By 1938, the Soviet Union had the largest engineering sector in Europe. But more immediately, people could also point to improvements at home. Things had been so bad for so long, after all, that almost anything looked like progress.


>Whatever else, the Soviet regime offered work. Not surprisingly, its most enthusiastic supporters were the people whose careers flourished in a fast-transforming labour market.

>>2004523
Mao was petty bourgeois and Maoists are retarded.

>>2033418
Stalinism and Maoism are basically the one of the only major ways you can get any sort of meaningful communism to exist in real life, tell me, how are you supposed to do stuff like provide free housing across a continent, develop loads of industry to raise living standards and protection, and protect yourself from capitalist powers across the Earth without a huge centralized state apparatus?

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Some thought Mao betrayed them because they believed in "no comprises" like the Progressive Labor Party, others interpreted it as a sign of U.S. imperial decline. "Supporting" it might not be the right word, but like… not viewing it as a contradicting what they believed. This was one such group.

>One of the largest new antirevisionist groups to surface in the late 1960s, the Communist League (CL) was distinct in a number of ways. It had direct roots in the Communist Party USA and the main “second wave” group, the Provisional Organizing Committee (POC). It disdained the New Left, student movement origins of the new communist movement groups. Unlike the Revolutionary Union and the October League, which also grew out of local collectives in California, CL came directly from an organizing effort in a black community.

>>2004523
They took the Deng Pill

File: 1731952416191.png (2.23 MB, 1911x1080, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2035009

>>2033414
Coming from a lower-class background, Stalin was also willing to get his hands dirty in ways many Bolsheviks weren't but also had the intellect and cunning to become an actual leader instead of just a goon.
At the time of the February Revolution he was one of the few Bolsheviks actually inside Russia (not in exile) and was able to set up a agitator network against the Provisional Government before Lenin had even arrived with Germany's help. Lenin soon became fascinated with the "wonderful Georgian" as he described Stalin. Lenin was a self-hating intellectual and despised the overly academic/intellectual nature of the inner circle of the Bolsheviks. Stalin came off as a salt-of-the-earth simpleton. He also appreciated Stalin's overt brutality, particularly in dealing with the unruly minorities during the Civil War.
Following Lenin's death, Stalin was successfully able to manipulate the top Bolsheviks while having them underestimate him as an idiot Georgian peasant. He first allied with Zinoviev and Kamenev against Trotsky, and once Trotsky was defeated politically he allied with Bukharin and Rykov against Zinoviev and Kamenev. Having taken control of the left and center-left of the party, Stalin then attacked Bukharin and Rykov and had them defeated, leaving him at the top.
How was he able to do this? Lenin had made him General Secretary of the Central Committee. This was not a particularly respected post pre-Stalin, the position of Premier and the Council of Ministers were viewed more prestigious under Lenin. The supremacy of the Party bureaucracy over the state posts is a feature Stalin introduced and still endures in places like China and North Korea today.
Stalin was able to use the then-underestimated post of General Secretary to control mid-level party appointments and stack local cadres with more brutal thugs similar to him and loyal to him. This is how the careers of the likes of Khrushchev, Bulganin, Brezhnev, Beria, Yagoda, Kaganovich, Voroshilov, etc. began. Thus when Stalin instigated major political assaults on the Zinoviev-Kamenev bloc and later the Rykov-Bukharin bloc, they found that they had very little low to mid level party support.

>>2005872
It baffles me, the amount of "communists" who have never internalized this, the most quintessential Marx quote of all time.

>>2004539
>bourgeois revolutionary supports bourgeois nation
who wouldve thought
mautists are retarded

They put fingers in their ers and sing lalala

>>2044511
of course your posting

>>2006963
Depends on culture / subculture; you have Southern petit booj aristo mentality, as well as Northern SOE / state service mentality.

In any Communist state, the military often has great prestige, especially since information control prevents adventures like Abu Ghraib from leaking out to the masses.

>>2049842
What's Northern SOE?

>>2050314
The Chinese Northeast, which had the majority of China's heavy industry (originally built by the Japanese, upgraded by Soviets, kept and developed by the Chinese under Mao), is notorious for its traditionally strong state sector under Mao, which turned it into a rustbelt under Deng.

>>2037897
I don't think he actually said that. Those words were kind of put into his mouth by Western journalists such as Mike Walace, and when asked about it he'd say "To get rich is no sin. However, what we mean by getting rich is different from what you mean." He was saying pauperism is not socialism and their task was to develop the productive forces to lead to common prosperity. The idea was not to permit the emergence of a new bourgeoisie (at least in theory).
https://china.usc.edu/deng-xiaoping-interview-mike-wallace-60-minutes-sept-2-1986

>>2044510
Well, most people here are more likely to have read Sakai than Marx at this point, so you shouldn't be surprised.
>>2049842
>In any Communist state, the military often has great prestige
Yes, because militaries under socialism have different missions that imperialist militaries.
>especially since information control prevents adventures like Abu Ghraib from leaking out to the masses.
Well, China hasn't been at war with any country for over 45 years and persues peace instead of escalation, so things like that don't happen.

>>2021509
>it is a class-collaborationist movement that considers the bourgeois democratic insitution painted red the highpoint of socialist development
Ultras do realize that New Democracy ended right? There were only a couple years of class collaboration if you are going by what Mao said he was doing, after collectivization there wasn't a Chinese bourgeoise again until Deng.

>>2051133
And what is it now?


See The Encyclopedia on anti-Revisionism
https://www.marxists.org/history/erol/erol.htm

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I am a philosopher, what I have to say is very important so read below.
>>2004665
>>2004539
>>2004592
>>2004925
>>2004928
Further proof that revolutionary socialism cannot work because it runs out of steam due to laws of physics. Find me a person that is super disciplined and willing to go to the end even if it is unprofitable and i will find you one million opportunists who would bail out and return to individualist pursuits. The only way to have a functional working socialism is what China TODAY is doing, ie, Join our party, Start your business. China's socialism works because it has become a fact of life for the average pleb without him having to show ideological fervor or some political signaling as was the case in Ost Block countries. The pleb does not want to be constantly involved in politics, since politics for the pleb is like going to a whorehouse. He wants to bang a hooker but not live with her. Capitalism, Feudalism and Liberalism are very successful because they don't demand constant participation from the populace. They just modify social relations, institutions etc and the people have to adjust. Communism on the other hand demands loyalty and constant politicking, everything has to be viewed through the principles of the ideology. This is the same reason why very corporate-culture-heavy workplaces are totalitarian hellholes and everyone gets tired of them. Religions that demand excessive obedience to religious leadership and dogma are the same thing. People get tired of being used as a resource. Demanding people "work together" quickly breaks down as such a state of affairs goes against the laws of thermodynamics. You can either purse a radical transformation of people's natures or you can use the existing institutions to "nudge" the person into the direction you want. Successful regimes have a deep state and they know how to manipulate the public to maintain their power. Further point elaborated below:
>>2007365
After watching that video, it is clear to me that putin is a fascist in the materialist sense since he is devoid of ideology (inb4 ilyin) and is only focused on maintaining power in order to have freedom of political movement. He uses populism, nationalism, social justice in order for russkie plebs to keep trusting him and fight for his mansions in Ukraine.

Mao was based. 'Marxism-Leninism-Maoism' is retarded.

>>2081882
unironically right

>>2007365
Fascism is reactionary and revolutionary, a utopian attempt to remake society from the bottom up based on mass activism. This is unorthodox for something that has typically been seen as a right-wing movement, because that kind of radicalism (destroying the old structure and building a transformed society of transformed individuals) was more typical of the far left. It also has really peculiar economic tendencies. It was all hot steam and bluster in its opposition to socialism, and a big part of its message was that it would preserve business against any attempt at socialization or collectivization. And it did do that, along with opposing the labor movement. But at the same time it represented the interests of the farmer and "petty bourgeoisie", which wanted land reform and opposed the monopolists, financiers, and general excess of free market capitalism. And masses of unemployed also made up a big supporter of the fascist parties, and they demanded relief in the form of public jobs programs. So basically the fascists have a weird, hybrid pseudo-socialism where technically-private firms were so controlled by the government and subordinated to "public interest" that they were basically socialized, while their rhetoric was based on a violent opposition to Marxism and Communism.

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People really brush all the falsification that Mao did under the rug. If anything, he was the originator of the "Marxist who never read Marx or Lenin." At the start, the communists were genuinely a proletarian organization but then it just fell apart to new democracy and "Chinese characteristics" which are both total betrayals to basic Marxist theory. This is why Pol Pot got called a Maoist.
>but he killed landlords!
Yeah cool but the capitalist system is maintained, just restructured a little bit. The class collaboration is so integral to Maoism that it's on the fucking flag.

>>2081910
The problem is that many Western self-proclaimed Maoists were only Maoists because it was seen as hip in the 70's


>>2097393
>UPI
glowie source
about as reliable as Radio Free Asia

>>2097397
the point still stands

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Western Maoists are a joke in every sense. Self-hating white people and upper-class minorities who can't even stand their own communities and who seem to thrive on the approval of neurotics, both contributing nothing but annoyance online and IRL. What have they actually accomplished? Just some epic LARPing about a totally real people's war that's supposedly around the corner!"

>>2100271
>Self-hating white people and upper-class minorities
remember this applies to 90% of people on here calling you a westoid


>>2087796
And yet China is closer to socialism than anyone else. What does this say about Marxism?

>>2100334
>China is closer to socialism than anyone else
two more weeks

>>2005046
It's interesting to read about left-wing groups in the U.S. in the late 60s who tried to cosplay as Che like the Weather Underground. Look up interviews with Mark Rudd talking about it. They really believed in what they were doing, but they misrecognized what happened, so Che succeeded in Cuba so therefore they should be like Che in the U.S., and it totally flopped and was self-destructive to their own movement. The only people they killed (although they did intend to kill soldiers at a barracks) were their own when they blew themselves up. They didn't even put two and two together, that Che was already dead when they began doing this, they were enthralled by his martyrdom and in love with themselves. They did have some success organizing students at Columbia University (somewhat like the encampments there recently), but they wanted to believe the people who showed up at these demonstrations they had organized would be future insurgents if they just got ball rolling. That was completely wrong.

>>2081910
both are retarded


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>>2103787
>>2005046
On the other Maoists, there was a maneuver in the 70s called the "industrial turn," which was basically American Maoists saying, we're a bunch of upper middle-class students who don't know what we're doing, so let's get factory jobs and actually become proletarian and merge with them and organize them.
There are really only two surviving groups of 70s American Maoism. One is a cult led by a guy named Bob Avakian, they're deranged:
https://youtu.be/vhsYu9p2Kho

There's also the FRSO. They're much more focused. Relatively small but, like, when there were strikes recently by the UAW and Teamsters, their channels would feature interviews with members of those unions who are (basically) FRSO members. Not, like, a lot. But they play a role in protest movements as well, they were involved in BLM, the Palestine protests going on now.
I saw a video on the news recently of the police breaking up a Palestine encampment in my city, and most of the people there were MENA youth, but then I saw the local FRSO people (I know who they are) there with bullhorns shouting instructions to people while they were being arrested about what to do. They might have set up some kind of organization to bail them out. They're not usually going at people with communist symbols or red flags and all that, more like a cell that exists within these other movements.

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>>2044448
>Coming from a lower-class background, Stalin was also willing to get his hands dirty in ways many Bolsheviks weren't but also had the intellect and cunning to become an actual leader instead of just a goon.
from loyle soldier to capo, a man after my own heart

>>2103787
Utopian Socialist revolutions (basically every revolution besides the US) failed because they're Utopian and not pragmatic. They're based philosophically in Rationalism which is the "retard fuel" for leftism. It's the belief of certainty of uncertain facts, basically a faith-based science where "proof" of your "theory" is not required. These are the whack-jobs of enlightenment who are philosophically the equivalent of a quack mad-scientist cutting up people's brains and hooking them up to machines for "purity" or some other make believe nonsense

>>2095568
>The problem is that many Western self-proclaimed Maoists were only Maoists because it was seen as hip in the 70's
why though


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