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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Why are fascists so close to getting it and yet they rarely if ever do? The only answer I have is that a fascist is emotionally invested in a romanticized worldview of tribes, nations or races being in an epic conflict with one another. So any growing awareness of capitalism being the problem is redirected and diffused to money itself being the problem, or greedy conspirators, or, of course, a race of people embodying everything bad that is actually capitalism. To acknowledge that it‘s capitalism both calls for unity across these primitive or constructed divisions, which is in a way a death of your people as a romantic concept and also the end of an epic that is more alluring than fighting a system instead of orcs.

What kind of fascists do you mean? What do you mean by 'close'?

Nazi-types are not close at all, far from it. Classical Fascists are much closer and have some actual socialist heritage hidden in their ancestry, but hold on to some fatal flaws.

>>2102756
Most Neo-Nazis are just edgelords, they basically pick the edgiest ideology possible to LARP. Real nationalists make a point of distancing themselves from these types.

>>2102736
Fascists are no “closer” than anyone else that isn’t a communist, to say they’re closer than, say, liberals solely for being anti-liberal is an absolute joke; everyone in modern society, since the inception of the capital order, has been diagnosing and trying to solve the contradictions of said capital order, only communists do this consciously. To think anti-liberalism is a meaningful or deep outlook on its own is a joke that pays heed to reactionaries; the original anti-liberals were literal aristocrats.

Principles of Communism, Section 24, Reactionary Socialists, Read it.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm

Reactionary Socialists
>The first category consists of adherents of a feudal and patriarchal society which has already been destroyed, and is still daily being destroyed, by big industry and world trade and their creation, bourgeois society. This category concludes, from the evils of existing society, that feudal and patriarchal society must be restored because it was free of such evils. In one way or another, all their proposals are directed to this end.

>This category of reactionary socialists, for all their seeming partisanship and their scalding tears for the misery of the proletariat, is nevertheless energetically opposed by the communists for the following reasons:


>(i) It strives for something which is entirely impossible.


>(ii) It seeks to establish the rule of the aristocracy, the guildmasters, the small producers, and their retinue of absolute or feudal monarchs, officials, soldiers, and priests – a society which was, to be sure, free of the evils of present-day society but which brought it at least as many evils without even offering to the oppressed workers the prospect of liberation through a communist revolution.


>(iii) As soon as the proletariat becomes revolutionary and communist, these reactionary socialists show their true colors by immediately making common cause with the bourgeoisie against the proletarians.


>>2102736
I think it's because they are rebelling against capitalism in a strange way, but it's like an inverted revolution, counter-revolutionary in its immediate ends. It's like how the right talks about "family" all the time, in a way that is a refuge from the atomization of modern capitalist society. I figure that description of "reactionary socialists" from Marx and Engels sums it up.

But one of the interesting things about the fascist states of the 20th century is they didn't last long and collapsed after a period of warfare into rather ordinary liberal-capitalist states. It's almost like accelerationism in that they inadvertently sped up the destruction of the traditional landed classes and cleared the way for what we have today, even though that wasn't their intention.

Another thing about the contemporary far right is how much they share with identity politics on the left in terms of stressing differences. But one of the critiques of idpol from the left is how that just makes it easier for capital to sell stuff to people. So the shift to nationalism might be understood as a short-lived epiphenomenon that is emerging from some pretty ironclad economic laws. I mean just think about Duginism and how that kind of ideology stresses a particular Russian life-world that the West doesn't understand, but from a long-term historical perspective might just be a blip, and its actual historical role is to integrate Russia into global capitalism through "product differentiation."

It might be incorrect to view what's going on in the world today as capitalist neoliberalism vs. [non-capitalist?] nationalism. Like the latter is a rebellion but it's not anti-capitalist, it's part of a shift to a statist form of capitalism and that's happening in many countries. This isn't necessarily something to cheer because it could very well mean new and bigger wars too. Also another example is HTS in Syria which is an Islamist organization, but the real agenda is to open Syria up for business. There was a book around 20 years ago called "Jihad vs. McWorld" by Benjamin Barber but now you have McJihad.

>>2102756
>>2103003
They absolutely are close to getting it yet somehow are held back by an illusory dense wall of the racial spook.

alot of fash just want to have there cake and eat it too, they want the benefits of socialism without the social revolution that entails. Also like you said reactionaries are big on romanticism,sentiment and vibes and literally believe in (there own) feels over reals. A method like marxism just doesn't flatter there ego and dickride them as somesort of mythic hero figure from a past golden age. Marxist will give you a strong analytical framework while fascists will literally just tell you that your the main character. Also in the bigger picture the fascist emphasis on class collaboration over class struggle will always make them more palatable and less subversive to the powers that be.

>>2102736
>>2102756
Fascists sometimes are socialists that actually get far from getting it due to doomerism and retreat to nationalism and racialism.

>>2102736
>To acknowledge that it‘s capitalism both calls for unity across these primitive or constructed divisions
Prove it, because you can dismantle crapitalism without becoming a BBC worshipping lefty soycuck

>>2103838
Because capitalism exists worldwide so naturally it‘s an international endeavor, lest you want to repeat the mistake of building socialism in one country.

>>2103848
>it‘s an international endeavor
when does flooding europe with based revolutionary BBCs come into the picture as an inescapable necessity?

>>2103856
1. Stop watching porn, especially of the interracial variety.
2. The influx of migrants into Europe is the result of European capital needing to prop up the various social structures in the continent that depend on a growing population. Think pension pyramids, etc. The fact that these migrants clash with the natives is an additional benefit; it distracts from the overall class conflict.

Fascists often adhere to social darwinism very close to bognadov beliefs.
Many of them are not close to getting it, they do get it, they just dont like it.

>>2103861
>The influx of migrants into Europe is the result of European capital needing to prop up the various social structures in the continent that depend on a growing population. Think pension pyramids, etc. The fact that these migrants clash with the natives is an additional benefit; it distracts from the overall class conflict.
None of this support your original statements, in fact you showed BBC worship is another symptom of crapitalism and should be avoided

On a different note, I don‘t know why the Nazis claimed Nietzsche when much of Hitler‘s speeches are about being victimized and unfairly treated. There‘s also a clear double standard where being bitched after WW1 by having their territories seized and being commanded to a degree is this injustice to eternally bemoan but then they want to colonize, exterminate and enslave everyone to the East of them? They weren‘t even responsible, lol.

Peabrained

>>2103871
>Workers of the world, unite!
>Workers of the world, fuck you got mine!
One mindset makes it easier for the bourgeoisie to divide to rule, can you guess which one?

fascists are against capital from a moral stand point not an economic one.
early Italian fascism was very against the rootless cosmopolitan/ global finance capital

>>2102756
>Classical Fascists are much closer
Outside Italy, people who call themselves classical fascists in the modern day are just Nazis who have not realized it or had the guts to identify with it yet. And even inside Italy classical fascism is mostly nonsense as a framing and nobody uses the term there. Fascists there work with the mafia to violently harass migrants, have never stopped being murderous anti-leftist thugs for the police (often there is literally no distinction) and bosses and have never stopped being psychotic reactionaries against women and sexual minorities. So it's not like fascists in Italy are nicer but that for historical and cultural reasons they are not forced to call back to the Nazis. You can say the same of many other fascist groups elsewhere too though, Azov is way more into Bandera than Hitler.

There never was some nice anti-racist fascism that offered some harmonious corporatist solution to the problem of labor relations. That idea comes from fascists themselves looking at what the fascists said and not what they actually did. The National Fascist Party got its start as a relevant organization by becoming murderous hired thugs for landlords and factory bosses, committed genocide in Libya, gassed Ethiopians, fought on the same side as Germany even when the Holocaust was happening and it never did implement corporatism in any serious way (not that that would've made much difference because class collaboration is always retarded and a bad deal for the working class).

I don't know if you are actually some polcompball retard, a fascist yourself or just uneducated on the topic but thinking of ideologies as sets of policy programs that are understood by reading platforms and speeches and which exist to be brute forced onto reality regardless of material conditions is totally idealist. You have to look at what they actually did and come to a class analysis of that.

>>2104359
>There never was some nice anti-racist fascism that offered some harmonious corporatist solution to the problem of labor relations
What about D'Annunzio's merry band of weirdos in Fiume? Granted that was also presided over by de Ambris who would become a staunch anti-fascist later on, so maybe it was mostly his influence and they still had proto-blackshirts killing people with castor oil but nobody's perfect

>>2102736
A lot of them do "get it" or at least are familiar with leftist rhetoric. They choose to lie, hypocrisy and half truths is the point.

File: 1736178815055.png (15.77 KB, 489x117, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2103388
Good fucking grief do I hate these infantile fascists.

>>2104351
Are you capable of forming a coherent argument? Are you implying "workers of the world unite" means import africans into Europe to replenish the dwindling reserve army of labour?

>>2102756
leftists finally accepting their fascist heritage

>>2102756
You’re asking the right questions. I’d say that most Americans based fascist orgs fall into either lumpen criminality (your Aryan Brotherhood and Peckerwoods) or middle class social outcasts (Patriot Front, Vanguard America). Meanwhile you look at European orgs (like Casapound) and they run hostels, hospitals, and developed ties with Azov and Hezbollah. They’re a different breed.

>>2102736
Since you’re using a pic of Mosley I’ll try to answer the question in his case. Firstly, I don’t think Mosley can be said to be ignorant of Marxism. You read articles from some of his BUF comrades and it’s clear they’ve read Capital enough to cite it. I believe Mosley himself was familiar with Marx’s works and perused them. Possibly even Lenin’s, too, his writings on Autarky at least seem to try to indirectly address Lenin’s ideas on imperialism. After the failure of the New Party some of Mosley’s former party Allies actually tried to get him to join the Communist Party, as they saw it as probably the closest continuation to what he was trying to do with the New Party, but of course he made a fascist turn.

In his autobiography, Mosley actually touches briefly on Marxism. In it he says that his chief contention with Marx is that he saw Marx as deterministic; I think the phrase he used in regards to Marxism is that it saw “man being ruled by his belly rather than his mind.” In this regard, the irony of it is that he saw Fascism as a better guarantor of human will than Marxism. He believed that Marxism left no room for man to make his own choices or to take the bull by the horns, everything was economically determined.

Tangentially related, but a second critique of his that’s echoed by Lawrence Davis (author of “The Coming American Fascism”) is that Marxism is an extremely destructive and violent ideology. The horrors of the Russian Civil War were on full display, as well as the poverty and rebuilding efforts. The news was awash with articles (some real, quite a few fake) of famine and violence and show trials. To the more “socialist” fascists like Mosley and Davis (and Davis railed against Capitalism and to some extent even imperialism until his dying day) Fascism was the key to a kind of social revolution without destroying your entire country. They saw Marxism as only emerging when you’ve made your country a desert and wanted to avoid that.

I’d say this is a far cry from a lot of modern fash, who basically think the Marxists wanna take their vidya games away.

>>2104422
That is the exact essence
Or rather, bludgeon to death pseudo-left opportunists that try utilizing the language of Marxism or workerism more broadly to deceive workers into viewing other proletarians as their true enemies or as pawns in a capitalist conspiracy and essentially reframing socialist organizing and praxis as essentially re-establishing prior capitalist relations wherein workers are said to have gotten a “better deal”

>>2108191
> Fascism was the key to a kind of social revolution without destroying your entire country.
And this is why Nationalism must be decapitated and have its corpse desecrated; fuck any socialist that promotes the ultimate mode of class collaboration, identification with the ideology of state domination over the proletariat

>>2108199
I mean to be fair, I don’t think it’s just nationalism that keeps people from desiring a violent civil war, potential famines, and mass destruction of their home.

>>2108205
It is nationalism that gets people like yourself to call yourselves socialists and then conflate socialism with “civil war, famine, and the destruction of their home”.
The problem isn’t the people being deceived by nationalism, it’s opportunist leftists that promote nationalism (just as certain leftists promote liberalism) and ensure the state will always have the propaganda and ideological upperhand over socialists.

File: 1736456988940.png (2.91 MB, 2206x1659, 「MENACING」.png)

>>2108229
>It is nationalism that gets people like yourself to call yourselves socialists and then conflate socialism with “civil war, famine, and the destruction of their home”.

I mean, my man, "revolutionary Socialism" is in the name. While it can and should be argued that the destruction of the Russian Civil War lies at the feet of a White Movement that made peaceful revolution impossible, let's not pretend that the Russian Civil War wasn't incredibly destructive. Some put the estimate at 10 million dead. That's a truly terrifying number. If a peaceable revolution were possible then I think there'd be less need for the dichotomy of reform vs revolution.

Regardless, I figure I should elaborate on what I wrote here >>2108191 and provide some quotes from Mosley's biography so people can hear it straight from the Horse's mouth, rather than a summary. Here's some of the interesting stuff:

>"Marx had some reason to stress his proletarian revolution when society collapses, because the ruling class is riddled with the disease of error and indecision; in short, when it becomes decadent. A healthy people can then produce new leadership to replace the old clique which fails because it surrenders to overwhelming opportunity for self-indulgence, though in practice much of the leadership towards a new society comes from individuals with the character to resist the temptation of the old. This is particularly true of England, where an aristocracy with roots in the soil has hitherto provided at least sufficient leadership toward necessary reform to avert the bloody upheavals of lands which lack such quality in crisis. This aspect of the original Whig tradition is never well appreciated by the bourgeois Tory mind with its crude class divisions of the cities. When the tattered remnants of the Whig tradition taunted me from the tawdry ranks of Toryism with being a class traitor, because I had taken the side of the people in the Labour Party, my reply was simple: it is you, not I, who betray our very English heritage, when you take the part of reaction against the people."

<-My Life, Oswald Mosley, Page 191

So here I think you see that reformism I was talking about. He gives at least some credit to Marx's idea of Proletarian revolution (at least more than the typical right-winger who thinks of Marx like a scam artist that tried to manipulate people into giving him power) but claims that there's an English heritage of reform over revolution (liberalizing fairly peacefully compared to the chaos of the French Revolution) and then sees in some elitist manner the role of figures "of the old regime" to reform it into a new configuration. Which, to be frank, is a highly idealistic view of history. He also borrows the terms "reactionary" and "bourgeois" which, I mean, seems to fit his own understanding of Fascism as a kind of pseudo-Socialism

>"I must resist at this point the temptation to be drawn into more modern, controversial subjects, such as my argument in the 1950s that Labour was then behaving in precisely the fashion which Marx had predicted for a failing Capitalism. Their only policy was to discard into world markets the production which their international system did not permit their own people to consume, and their only hope—piously expressed by Labour leaders—was that America in the 20th century would take the place of Britain in the nineteenth century as the international moneylender of the financiers' system to which they are completely subject. Now at last certain facts are recognised; so let as many Englishmen as possible go together into an European economy which is insulated but not isolated."

<-My Life, Oswald Mosley, p.g. 249-250

Again Mosley expresses at least a passing familiarity with Marx. His writings here seem to be a critique of globalization and America's ascendancy to the chief hegemon of Capitalism (as Britain played in the 19th century). I think he's quite aware of the fact that Capitalism acts irrationally ("the international system did not permit their own people to consume") but his own personal hangups lead him to primarily blame "Bankers" and the Finance system, and while Finance Capital is an undeniable evil, one only needs to look at Nazi Germany to see that Fascism rarely revolts against the international financiers they rail against.

The Ideology of Fascism
Okay so for this part I figured I'd summarize several pages of Mosley's autobiography because I think here we get into the root of his opinions on Marxism. I'll be including quotes where I think there's an interesting possibility for discussion.

Mosley begins the chapter by explaining that he's never felt the appeal of "ideas" devoid of action and exclaims the importance of "men who both think and act" and here you see something approaching almost a kind of respect for Marxism, though peppered with slander on Mosley's part.

>"Communism today commands half the world. It rests on a combination of Marxian thinking and Communist Party action. If the idea had just rested behind the whiskers, would anything have happened? It was in fact carried forward to the conquest of half the globe by the most brutal, ruthless, and unscrupulous methods of action humanity has known"

<Page 317

In one hand I think there are plenty of Marxist thinkers that extolled the virtues of action ("praxis" in a word) but I find Mosley here to be an extreme hypocrite. Anyone reading what the Germans did in Eastern Europe, let alone the Holocaust, as well as the Ustase in Yugoslavia, will find it a hard sell to hear a Fascist decry Communists as using some of the most ruthless methods to achieve power known to man.

>"The superficial question may be raised whether the idea really had any relation to this kind of action, since not one in a hundred of Communist Party members understands Marxism, and not one in a million in the countries adhering to that creed has ever read Marx. Why should this abstruse and far from popular doctrine have anything to do with the achievement at all? […] no movement of the human mind and spirit goes far unless it is inspired by an idea which, for better or worse, is a reality. It may be as obscure and contorted as Marxian economic theory or as clear and simple as the Christian doctrine of love, but it must be a reality in the sense that it appeals to some deep feeling in human nature."

<Page 317

Beyond the humor of him mimicking leftypol in claiming most Marxists don't read Marx, he's basically playing off Sorel's ideas on revolutionary myths, whom he mentions on the next page in addition to other thinkers. He then goes on to compare Stalin to Socrates angrily saying Poets should be exiled, praises Lenin and Trotsky as both men of intense thought and action, and also mentions Mao's "million flowers" campaign as well as forming the red guards. He then goes on to insult Karl Popper, and claims that the violence that intellectuals shirked from but that his blackshirts engaged in would discipline a new class of intellectual, a kind of "warrior philosopher" as it were.

I've got to get going to work and sadly can't finish my summary of the chapter, I've got to get going to work, but around 328-329 he goes again into that discussion about determinism I mentioned in my prior post.


In short, I think this answer's OPs central question better than just mere speculating. Here you see about as close as an "intellectual" Fascist as Mosley can get to Marxism, before retreating from it for the reasons he outlined: a lot of idealism, I think.

>>2108303
Tangential but I think you should be willing to read a Hungarian Marxist like István Mészáros if you’re willing to read a literally who British fascist.
Mészáros’s analysis of the USSR and the revolutionary wave it represented as being moreso a post-capitalist form of capital’s regime of “social metabolic control” as he called it is interesting in the context of the fascist movements’ intense fascination and revulsion for those regimes

Most fascists are inherently Aristocratic and elitist. Not all, but the most powerful ones are.
Like Ebola, he was a big fan of aristocracy. Or Hitler, says Marxism is incompatble with aristocratic values of men
Elitism is a mental illness, it cannot be cured. Only non elitist fascists have a chance to ever convert.

>>2102789
>Most Neo-Nazis are just edgelords
This. Look at that faggot for example
>nazi.neocities.org

>>2108310
Thanks for the recommendation, I'll have to check them out.

Now personally I do think how Socialism will (hopefully) manifest in the West will be starkly different from how it did in the USSR. In America especially I think it'll be a lot more of a chaotic and "open" electoral process than what we saw in Russia.

>>2109559
Socialism will only manifest itself in the west after everyone else is already socialist and they start falling behind economically to such a significant amount that they cannot ignore it anymore

>>2102736
>Why are fascists so close to getting it and yet they rarely if ever do?
Lmao, when you're a retard who believes the petit-bourgeois fight against the haute bourgeois for the same reasons the proletariat does you come to these braindead conclusions.

>>2109575
Ok dude, keep believing the left-right scale exists and people can "become closer" to communism by believing in the correct ideals.

>>2103493
Bourgeois socialism is a thing. You know, the whole thing Marx and Engels critiqued in their lives.

>>2103388
>They absolutely are close to getting it yet somehow are held back by an illusory dense wall of the racial spook.
Same radlib retardation as "we'd have communism if more people believed in it", lol.

>>2109569
I’ve got my doubts on that chief. For one China seems content to not try to export its ideology. Secondly most of the developing world seems content to follow a capitalist national development model, more Friedrich List than Karl Marx. To me this “wait for the rest of the world to go first” model seems more like an article of faith than a rational position—an inverse of Lenin’s old error that the Russian Revolution was just the precursor to a “real” revolution taking place in Germany.

>>2109579
So many of these nighas are still so deep in capitalist realism they think anti-liberalism puts you close to socialism/communism lmao

>>2102736
OP thinks 4channers hating the US and thinking modern Russia is le based is "close to getting it" 😂

>>2109626
Thinking communism is a set of beliefs individuals adopt is the most petty-bourgeois liberal thing you can think.

>>2109623
I mean they are. Useful idiots at worst, who play directly into the hand of bolshevism

>Why are fascists so close to getting it
This linearism needs to stop, it's nonsense.

>>2104422
no just ur crib cuz you annoying

>>2109654
Maybe we’d be better off if “communists” locked themselves away in some tower if they advocate tailing fascists

File: 1736563520004.jpeg (126.71 KB, 1500x842, IMG_1680.jpeg)

yes

>>2102736
>What kind of fascists do you mean?
yeah you talking about the guy with a bat in the street or the financial oligarch who shipped a pallet of bats to their headquarters? i think its pretty obviously why the second type doesn't "get it" and how stopping them stops the first type

>>2104352
>fascists are against capital
the fucking what

>>2108199
>state domination
>>2108229
>the state
Anarchist Detected

File: 1736573213729.png (220.46 KB, 465x226, ClipboardImage.png)

opinion on park chung hee

>>2109824
They obviously mean bourgeois nation-states, dumbfuck, not some theoretical DotP.


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