>>229588>It is literally impossible for independant Scotland to be socialist.
Because you say so? Bollocks. >We've traded two essay tier posts and still you're dodging the fact the Scotland does not have the economic or military clout to break from neoliberalism.
and this is the first time you've brought it up and it is something you are simply asserting with no evidence. >It is literally impossible for independant Scotland to be socialist.
repeating it twice doesn't constitute evidence. so, ergo nothing. You haven't said anything so how can it be ergo something. I see however this is just a distraction tactic to avoid saying what it is you believe as the alternative. What is it CPB? Labour? Something else? What?
first its>I'd love to know how you're peering into a crystal ball, through economic, enviromental and demographic crises and are so damned sure what conditions will be 50 years down the line.
then its >It won't overthrow the government tommorrow, but one day it will.
so in fact, you are the one who is dead certain that the tactics you give >So yeah i'm pretty much fine with the party structure and organising amongst labour/tenants.
is one day going to be a revolutionary combination. Also you don't say which party. Telling. Is it, tiny microsect CPB, they stood this year.. lets see the results. Or is it, massive neoliberal behemoth of hope and cope Labour? or is it something even more deeply autistic than the CPB?
What you are literally saying is>just continue as we have been doing
I'm asking you why we should do that given the stunning lack of results it has given us.
>id like to be prepared >id like to be organised >for when le big event happens which changes things so dramatically
and yet, with these tactics and the current crop of parties, a global pandemic happened and where was your precious labour of CPB? Fellating themselves is where. Doing NADA. The time is HERE the time is NOW. There is the opportunity to make sweeping changes to how the UK looks in the very near future. I understand you are completely high off the fart fumes of some fossil of a CPB chair or some sociopathic labour party careerist, which you refuse to specify, but its time smell the coffee cunt. Your strategy is essentially "wait" .
Tell me what you would do that is any different from what has been done before and tell me why we should expect any different from what has already happened?
>Except if it's directly contradictory to the cause of socialism. Like Balklanising the UK for instance.
I'm interested to hear why you think Balkanising a key NATO member is somehow inherently antithetical to socialism
>1 is utterly divorced from 2 and 3.
Its not at all, Scotland has a population which is FACTUALLY, STATISTICALLY, more left wing than the rest of the UK, apart from Ireland. It is therefore FACTUALLY AND STATISTICALLY easier to organise these people into unions. Break off the easy party, make it socialist, move on to the harder parts. It really isn't rocket science. You are also completely ignoring the fact that independence would then give way to a national debate of what the country should be, and that Scotland as previously stated has a population which is more left wing than the rest of the UK. I understand this upsets you, but its a fact.
>3 is sheer fantasy.
you were the one that was on about the history of intervention. Remind me what domino theory was.
>2 is literally just we should do socialism, and you think it'd be easier in Wales/Scotland. You're wrong, simple as.
as stated above, i'm right, not just simple as, i've given actual reasons, not just "you're wrong because I say so".
Counter SPECIFICALLY: Scotland has a more left wing population than the rest of the UK, do this with actual facts, not just pontificating. Post a source to back up your claims. Then counter SPECIFICALLY the idea that a newly independent country would be galvanised around a program of national renewal and therefore all of the above tenant and labour organising is much easier, as well as pushing socialist policy into parliament.
>Am i reading this right?
No you're not because you then say> Are you insulting the 'just do mass movements' strat and saying we need to be nats because they're mass movements?
which isn't what i'm saying at all and there is no part of the post which says that.
>we'll build workers/tenants movements out of this! How? Fuck knows.
actually I have given an answer for this in the post and I have reiterated it above. You are simply pretending I've said something else.
>Where was i talking about about how i think we should organise? I don't rememeber it.
yeh, so I'm asking you, what alternative strategy do you have, and you are refusing to answer, and when you did answer, the answer you gave was literally the position I was critiquing "just keep doing what we have been doing" IT ISN'T WORKING. CLEARLY. EVEN WHEN IT CAME CLOSE TO WORKING, IT COMPLETELY FAILED.
>I'm in favour of staying together as the alternative renders socialism impossible.
its complete nonesense though and you haven't given a shred of evidence to back it up. Scotland is a northern european country with highly developed productive forces and many natural assets. Of course it can do socialism.
>literally the reason for supporting this, is hope. Just hoping something shakes from it.
nope, its because scottish people are more left wing and independence willl put scotland in a state of flux. If it leaves, it will be more left wing than the rest of the UK, because that is the culture of the place and its what people want. These again, are facts. Again, I know you like to stick your fingers in your ears and make excuses for ole blighty and akshually Engerland is a revolutionary hotbed and scotland is literally the most imperialist country to exist, but that is all cope, the facts say completely otherwise. Get over it and stop crying about it.
>More mastabatory fantasy.
exactly as masturbatory as "one day the things that we have been doing for 100 years will start to work because umm… if I use the word "conditions" that makes it sound marxist right? okay.. because the conditions will change, yeh, p marx, very engles."
>Go look at Greece.
you mean, the country in europe with the largest communist party and probably the most radical politics of anywhere in europe? With the giant anarchist scene and such? Would fucking love if that was Scotland actually yeh.
I mean, if you can even compare scotland and greece in that matter, but eh, you can't because the history the countries is entirely different.
>You were dismissing the rest UK intefering in Scotland.
yes, when I was advocating for Scotland to leave the UK because I think the UK stops scotland doing socialism i was actually saying that the UK doesn't interfere with scotland.
>The doom pill here is in pursuing a project where success renders socialism impossible.
this "socialism is impossible" seems to be your big ace card and you've literally nothing to back it up. Sheer cope.
>A independant Scotland would be rent asunder by the UK and EU if it moved left.
Do you think the feds are less likely to stimmy socialism in the UK if it stays together or something? Explain your reasoning. Literally anything you can say about feds in Scotland you can also say about feds in the UK in general. Thats reality. Wake up to it.
I accept getting fedded exists. My plan for it? Same as in Bolivia, a dedicated, organised, disciplined socialist movement, which is, objectively, more easily built in an independent Scotland.
You could take your fed argument and literally apply it to anywhere.