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File: 1620080949709.png (10.96 KB, 595x379, America question mark.png)

 No.218475[Last 50 Posts]

Introduction

The left is currently experiencing a revival in America, so it is now a good time for the American left to plan out its long-term strategy. Before we can figure out what strategies to pursue, let's take a look at some of the challenges the left faces here:
-A weak and declining labor movement
-An electoral system that makes it nearly impossible for leftist parties to get elected to important offices
-Leftists are forced to run as Democrats if they want to win elections. It seems that being part of the Democratic Party makes leftist politicians less willing to challenge the political establishment.
-Large amount of fragmentation, especially on the far-left. For example, there are dozens of parties claiming the be the "vanguard" of the working class.
-A state that is ruthlessly efficient at repressing the left
-Racial tensions that could make it difficult to maintain a multiracial working class coalition
-A state that tremendous capacity to inflict violence on the left if the need were to arise
-Right-wing paramilitaries
-Lack of left-wing paramilitaries

With these things in mind, I'll make some recommendations for what the American left should do.

Electoral strategy

The left should make a big priority of enacting electoral reform. They should seek to implement proportional representation at the local and state level wherever it can be voted on via a ballot measure. We can't expect legislatures to vote for legislation that would give them more competition, so we need to use direct democracy wherever possible. At the federal level it is not possible to enact proportional because there is a federal law mandating all House of Representative districts to be single-member. For the House, the left should seek to implement some sort of ranked or cardinal voting system like the Condorcet method or STAR voting.

The left should seek to abolish the electoral college, as it tilts American politics further to the right.

The left should seek to abolish the filibuster, as it biases the legislative process in favor of the status quo.

So long as they cannot win on third party tickets, leftists should run as Democrats. However, there are some more things they should do besides that. Firstly, their campaigns should receive only small donations from individuals and large donations from working class organizations like labor unions. They should accept no corporate money. Secondly, they should be part of some sort of left-wing pseudo-party like Democratic Socialists of America so that they have some accountability to an organization other than the Democratic Party. Thirdly, these pseudo-parties should 1) be mass organizations accountable to the working class and 2) have some sort of mechanism for holding their elected officials accountable if they do not pursue the policies that the pseudo-party wants them to. An example of such a mechanism would be for the pseudo-party to withdraw support for an elected official if they repeatedly fail to follow the policy platform prescribed by the pseudo-party.

The left should avoid forming personality cults around high-profile left-wing politicians, as it makes it harder to effectively criticize them when necessary.

The left should seek to win elections on third party tickets whenever possible. This would be easiest at the local level, especially in uncontested races.

The left should seek to abolish any other laws that make it hard for third parties to get onto ballots and win elections.

Organized labor

I do not know enough about organized labor to offer many suggestions for them. However, there is a strategy used by the IWW that other unions may want to replicate. The IWW avoids holding public union votes and instead secretly goes from worker to worker, asking them to declare their support for a union. Once a majority of workers at a given workplace have declared their support, the IWW goes ahead with forming a union there. This method makes it easier to avoid the sort of employer interference that has sunk many unionization efforts, most notably the recent Amazon union vote in Bessemer, Alabama.

Left unity

While sectarianism may be fun in internet arguments, it is highly counter-productive in real life. Left-wing organizations should seek to increase their cooperation with other left-wing organizations, and perhaps merge together when possible. There's little point in having 50 vanguard parties, at least if they don't work together. Additionally, far-left organizations like CPUSA, PSL, IWW, and others should cooperate with more moderate organizations like the DSA so long as they have shared goals. I know Bernie killed Rosa, but the far-left will be able to accomplish more by working with moderate left-wing organizations than by shunning them. Additionally, moderate organizations can build a base of support that more radical organizations can tap into later on. Save shitting on socdems for when The Revolution™ comes.

Operations security

State repression has wrecked the left numerous times in American history, so the left should have some strategies for combating it. However, I do not know much about opsec so I can't offer much advice here. I do expect there to be a balancing act between transparency and security though.

Intersectionality

I know leftypol is a class reductionist board, but the fact of the matter is that the American working class is too diverse for class reductionism. The American left should stand in opposition to all forms of oppression including, but not necessarily limited to, capitalism, racism, patriarchy, ableism, homophobia, and transphobia. The left also needs to be careful to avoid alienating subsets of the working class, like some ethnic groups, in their organizing work. For example, while they should take a firm stance against racism and white supremacy, the left should be careful to avoid a "Fuck whitey lmao" type mindset.

Additionally, the left should offer support to identity-based social movements like Black Lives Matter, feminist movements, LGBT rights movements, immigrants' rights movements, and others. Building up alliances with those movements will be beneficial growing your movement.

Anti-fascism

The left should do whatever it can to weaken far-right movements

Paramilitarism

While the left should avoid instigating armed conflict, it should be ready to defend itself should it ever come under attack. Giving combat training to working people and organizing them into paramilitaries is probably a good idea, although I am not sure what kind of relationship these paramilitaries should have to other left-wing groups. The right already has its own paramilitaries, should the left should be ready challenge them on their own turf.


Your thoughts

These are just a few rough suggestions of mine, and should by no means should be interpreted as authoritative wisdom on what the American left ought to do. That said, what suggestions, would you give?
>>

 No.218482

America: what is to be done?

The black panther party with added union organising.
>>

 No.218485

Just give it to Mexico.
>>

 No.218487

A communist party needs to run its own candidates. Progressivism was a failure. Even if they lose, they should be able to expose the corruption and use the electoral platform as a megaphone.
>>

 No.218494

Based and very aware. I like this plan. Im at work rn but I'll comr.back to this thread, so, have a polite bump.
>>

 No.218499

File: 1620081296473.png (123.58 KB, 687x792, decent.png)

>>218475
balkanization
this is now a balkanized america maps thread
>>

 No.218519

>>218487
Sounds good in theory, but may not work in practice, at least at the federal level. Communist parties have been running their own candidates at the federal level for decades, but to no avail. I support running communist and other third party candidates at the local level though, as it's usually easier for them to win there.

>Even if they lose, they should be able to expose the corruption and use the electoral platform as a megaphone.

The problem is that no one will pay attention to some minor party that got 0.6% of the vote. It would need to substantially increase its vote share if it is to even think about getting any attention. Overall, running progressives as Democrats, even with all its faults, seems to have been far more effective as a propaganda tool than running as third parties. Just think of all the people that Googled "socialism" for the first time after Bernie Sanders ran for president. Of course, this strategy should maintained only so long as this system makes it nigh impossible for third parties to win elections.
>>

 No.218533

What's actually the difference between PSL and CPUSA anyway? I just realized I don't actually know. Why aren't they one party?
>>

 No.218536

File: 1620081944980.png (360.77 KB, 611x480, indianlandloss.png)

Amerikkka has no right to exist. It must be abolished, with the land returned to the indigenous nations. Thereafter, those nations will expel the most reactionary segment of the settler population while reeducating the rest.
>>

 No.218539

File: 1620082025676.jpg (78.88 KB, 750x725, everywhreEverytime.jpg)

>>218475
good post OP. Especially about unity, intersectionality, and anti-fascism.
>>

 No.218540

>>218533
>PSL
dengist trots
>CPUSA
dengist democrats
>>

 No.218542

>>218536
What a stupid chart. Indians didn’t “have land” in the same sense the federal government did. It wasn’t a private property based society. This map makes it look like it’s Palestine 300 times over or something.
>>

 No.218545

File: 1620082152585.mp4 (988.99 KB, 256x256, 1619474511949.mp4)

>>218499
For a second I thought top left would be given to Romania for some reason
>>

 No.218548

>>218536
There's no way in hell a group comprising 1.6% of the US population will be able to gain control over the entire country. It's more realistic for nonwhites to gain control of the United States, but even that is pretty far fetched since they are not the majority of the population. I do think indigenous liberation and self-determination should be a priority for the left, but your proposal is highly unrealistic and frankly not even all that desirable.
>>

 No.218551

>>218499
why is newfoundland a part of quebec
more importantly why did you give the confederate larpers what they want. that's fucking dumb son
>>

 No.218553

>>218519
I think the virtue of an “openly communist” candidate winning local elections alone will stir the modern MSM into a frenzy that will work in our favor.
>>

 No.218559

>>218542
>Indians didn’t “have land” in the same sense the federal government did. It wasn’t a private property based society.
Land wasn't owned by individuals, but it was the sovereign territory of the various tribes and clans. It's like saying no one owns national parks; technically true, but that doesn't mean anyone can just take them from the government.
>This map makes it look like it’s Palestine 300 times over or something.
It is.

>>218548
Forward-thinking white people and other non-indigenous people will ally with the Indians in their righteous struggle.
>>

 No.218568

>>218553
Eh, it's more plausible that there'd be a media blackout. CPUSA already holds a couple of local offices, but you never hear about them in the media.

>>218559
People focus on their self-interest first and foremost. Very few non-natives would be willing to bend over backwards to give all of America's land to indigenous people. The only land that could reasonably be given to native tribes would be areas where natives comprise the majority of the population, most notably Indian reservations and some non-reservation parts of Alaska.
>>

 No.218569

>>218559
we should just make interracial sex mandatory so everyone in the country has native american blood and therefore has an ancestral claim to all American soil. Problem solved.
>>

 No.218572

>>218569
Oh cool, my 3% Native American ancestry will work in my favor now
>>

 No.218575

>>218499
>the hoi iv masturbation fantasy

not gonna happen
>>

 No.218576

>>218568
>Very few non-natives would be willing to bend over backwards to give all of America's land to indigenous people.
<Very few Israelis would be willing to bend over backwards to liberate Palestine.
>The only land that could reasonably be given to native tribes would be areas where natives comprise the majority of the population, most notably Indian reservations and some non-reservation parts of Alaska.
<The only parts of Palestine that could reasonably be liberated would be areas where Palestinians comprise the majority of the population, most notably the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
>>

 No.218583

Here's my two cents. Americans have very knee jerk reactions to certain loaded words. And imagery (branding, presentation) says volumes. So don't use the S or C words (socialism or communism). If you can get away with it do it without saying it. Visually, stay away from old symbols, the hammer and sickle, red flags, various well-established far left iconographies. Make up new words and images, even if they mean the exact same things. Years of being barraged by advertisement and marketing has Americans attracted to novelty. And only some will go beyond superficial appearances.

This strategy alone will probably at least intrigue rather than repulse some Middle America types. You must bypass their superficial tendency to take things at face value.

Few leftists fail to understand this very simple detail about so called optics. They persist using words that many Americans associate with the devil or pure evil, without understanding that they are not opposed to the ideas, which they are not even educated or informed about, but the words and the images that have been drilled by association into them.
>>

 No.218585

>>218559
If the natives owned the land then it belongs to the settlers by right of conquest. Tough luck.

Or, you could be a communist instead of a nat cuck and not buy into nonsense like land ownership or some spooky inherent racial "right" to some place just because you happened to be born on it.
>>

 No.218587

>>218576
>socialism but only for the 1.6% of the population

i swear this is bait but i've legitimately met retards like you IRL
>>

 No.218589

>>218583
>Few leftists fail to understand this very simple detail about so called optics
>Few
Many I mean
>>

 No.218592

>>218559
To the anglos, they had bought the land. Anti-colonialism isn’t applicable to America because it’s not a matter of political subjugation like real colonies.
>>218568
> CPUSA already holds a couple of local offices, but you never hear about them in the media.
>>

 No.218594

>>218583
>>218589
that time has passed. the progressive movement failed. it’s like Caleb Maupin said, we need to own up to our history and be able to debate about it, we need to present ourselves as a real tradition with meaningful roots, just like every other ideology. soft words and jumping and dodging doesn’t even work, they even called Biden a communist. the word doesn’t matter anymore by their own admission.
>>

 No.218595

>>218568
> CPUSA already holds a couple of local offices, but you never hear about them in the media.
Sorry I fucked up the first reply. I was going to ask where these offices are
>>

 No.218597

>>218533
>>218540
does anyone have a better answer than this? I feel like everyone got distracted by the retarded blood and soil poster
>>

 No.218600

>>218585
<If the Palestinians owned the land then it belongs to the Israelis by right of conquest. Tough luck.

>>218587
What do you mean? Everyone would live under socialism in a decolonized society.

>>218592
>To the anglos, they had bought the land. Anti-colonialism isn’t applicable to America because it’s not a matter of political subjugation like real colonies.
This has to be bait, how the fuck does US policy towards Indians not constitute subjugation? You know the federal government doesn't even let tribes prosecute white people who commit crimes on Indian land, right?

>>218597
PSL runs their own candidates in presidential elections whereas CPUSA endorses Democrats.
>>

 No.218601

>>218539
Fuck off back to r/stupidpol.
>>

 No.218602

>>218592
>To the anglos, they had bought the land.
As European diseases ravaged the NA population, in some cases Europeans were actually invited to come and settle a place to make up for lost population and serve as a counter weight between, say, a tribe that had been devastated by disease or some other disaster, and other larger tribes.

The book 1491 talks about European colonization in summary in parts, even though it's mostly about like in the Americas before the arrival of Columbo. It's fascinating and I highly recommend it.
>>

 No.218603

>>218576
>>Very few non-natives would be willing to bend over backwards to give all of America's land to indigenous people.
><Very few Israelis would be willing to bend over backwards to liberate Palestine.
When people speak of "liberating Palestine", they usually mean either the two-state solution or the one-state solution. The two-state solution would mean creating a Jewish state and a Palestinian state, which would thus entail only giving back part of the territory occupied by Israel back to Palestinian control. The one-state solution seeks to create a single binational state that would be under the joint control of Jews and Arabs, which is different from you proposing that we give full control of the United States to indigenous people. Additionally, Palestinians comprise a far larger proportion of the Israeli-occupied territories than Native Americans do with the US population.

>>The only land that could reasonably be given to native tribes would be areas where natives comprise the majority of the population, most notably Indian reservations and some non-reservation parts of Alaska.

><The only parts of Palestine that could reasonably be liberated would be areas where Palestinians comprise the majority of the population, most notably the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
If we are talking about the two-state solution, then this would probably be the case.

>>218583
While I don't think leftists should be going around everywhere with hammer-and-sickle flags and AK-47's, I don't think we should avoid socialist terminology and symbols entirely. Bear in mind that, even if you don't call yourself a socialist or a communist or whatever, your political opponents probably will. If the term is an accurate description of your ideology, you might as well embrace it. I do think leftists should try to appeal to liberal values like freedom, democracy, equality, etc. though.

>>218595
Ashland, Wisconsin and Wilkinsburg, Pennsylvania
https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/native-american-communist-topples-incumbent-council-president-in-wisconsin-town/
https://www.cpusa.org/article/100-years-of-cpusa-a-critical-reply-to-jacobin/
>>

 No.218605

>Your thoughts
Literally the opposite of what you said, auccdem
>>

 No.218607

>>218482
Sage here with the good takes
>>

 No.218608

>>218600
>If the Palestinians owned the land then it belongs to the Israelis by right of conquest. Tough luck.
Yup.

Land ownership is a bourgeois concept and using it as a justification for political action is reactionary.
>>

 No.218610

>>218601
???
I said I agreed with the points about intersectionality. The post was pro-intersectionality. That's the opposite of the stupidpol position. Did you misunderstand me?
>>

 No.218611

>>218610
Ohhh, I thought you were being sarcastic, my bad.
>>

 No.218612

>>218608
Are you saying Palestinian nationalists are also reactionary? Damn, how /leftypol/ has fallen.
>>

 No.218615

>>

 No.218617

What's to be done about America?
Burn it to the ground, salt the earth, forbid anyone from ever setting foot upon it again.
>>

 No.218618

>>218600
> This has to be bait, how the fuck does US policy towards Indians not constitute subjugation?
It is subjugation, but it’s not done in proxy like some kind of satellite state like India was to Britain. that’s the difference
>>

 No.218620

>>218475
The burgerstani population is too spooked for socialism to eever gain significant ground, let alone become the dominant ideology, they are a lost cause. Best to let them decline and colapse into thousands of feudal territories controlled by corporations, while the third world develops and modernizes with the support of China. Maybe after a couple of centuries of reliving the middle ages while the rest of the world has become basically Star Trek the burger mind will finally be able to accept that shareholders aren't gods
>>

 No.218623

decolonization is a meaningless term which boils down to white guilt, neoluddism and historical moralism
>>

 No.218624

>>218612
the problem with Israel is not that Israeli's live there. The problem is that Palestinians are second class citizens, forced out of their homes, and treated as inferior by the state, which is explicitly defined as a Jewish state. Anti-zionists do not believe that all jews should leave Israel, and such an opinion WOULD be reactionary. What anti-zionists desire is liberation of the Palestinians. Personally, I support a one state solution, where Palestinians and Israeli's live in the same state, which equal rights, and no special privileges granted under the law, and a complete end to the Apartheid and murderous policies of the Israeli state. And, if it's not too much to ask, I'd like this new one state to be called Palestine.

America still does treat Native Americans like shit, and any leftist movement MUST not only recognize this, but work to change it. However, the idea that the problem is the presence of white people in America need to leave, with the native americans of each area (already a problematic concept. Many tribes occupied the same area. which one would have ownership? and what of tribes which are totally extinct due to colonialist genocide? Should there territories be uninhabited?) is nonsense, utopian, and just silly. Determining who is and isn't native american anyway would be a tremendous task. Many of these Native American nations haven't even existed for hundreds of years. You can't just turn back the clock like that, no matter how much you might want to.
>>

 No.218629

>>218623
This, if anything we should be embracing socialist colonialism as a way of bringing socialism across the world
>>

 No.218631

>>218624
wow rereading this I really should have gone through it before posting. There are a lot of grammar and spelling mistakes. Sorry. I'm not an idiot I just wasn't paying attention.
>>

 No.218633

>>218623
true
>>218629
false

Read Marx's writings on colonialism. (Hint: it's bad)
>>

 No.218636

>>218603
>When people speak of "liberating Palestine", they usually mean either the two-state solution or the one-state solution.

It's hard to tell exactly what natcucks are talking about when they're talking about "decolonization" because it seems like it means something different to whatever idiot happens to be talking about it at the time. You've got some lunatics that want to genocide all white people, and some that want to genocide only some white people. Others just want to put "indigenous" people in charge of everything, literally making all of north and south america "Turtle Island" their private property which they will manage and then benevolently allow settlers to live on. Maybe.

I see Decolonization Is Not A Metaphor cited a lot. There's an episode mentioned in it about Occupy Oakland and if that's anything to go by then yeah, it's a very literal "everyone that isn't indigenous to the Americas has to give up all their property and put Natives in charge." It's a treatise on why Indians are the all time winners of the Oppression Olympics and why they and their struggles are the most important.

Like, I empathize with American Indians a lot. Just going by the current conditions they're forced into is more than enough really. But "decolonization" rhetoric and ideology is all deeply, deeply bourgeois and is cultivating some seriously reactionary currents.
>>

 No.218637

>>218633
There weren’t any socialist nations at the time of Marx, the material conditions mean that socialist colonialism is a justified and effective way of spreading the revolution
>>

 No.218639

>>218623
It does have useful meaning in certain contexts, but not the one that tankanon is using. I think giving more self-rule to Indian reservations, for example, is not an unreasonable thing to do.
>>

 No.218640

>voot democrat
>support blm and lgbtq movements

The glowies are getting more sophisticated, even dropping good sounding advice mid way.
>>

 No.218641

>>218618
Yeah, that's because it's settler colonialism instead of franchise colonialism. It's still a type of colonialism though.
>>

 No.218643

>>218639
>I think giving more self-rule to Indian reservations, for example, is not an unreasonable thing to do.

yes and no, canada gives the reservations a lot of autonomy basically right down to self rule and the places are basically ancap zones
>>

 No.218645

>>218499
gonna live in the people's democratic republic of neo-cascadia which is nothing like the people's socialist republic of california.
>>

 No.218650

>>218643
kinda reminds me of this: “If you remove the English Army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle., unless you set about the organization of the Socialist Republic your efforts will be in vain. England will still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs.”
― James Connolly
>>

 No.218652

>>218612
>Are you saying Palestinian nationalists are also reactionary?
Probably, yeah. Point to some in particular and we can examine their ideology. Just because they're fighting an imperialist state doesn't make them good. How new are you? There are plenty of examples of revolutionaries, even putatively leftist ones, that were or became reactionary.

And yeah, I'll go ahead and say right now that if they're not trying to throw off Israeli oppression in order to dissolve the state of Israel and all other states in conjunction with building international socialism, then yeah, they're reactionary.
>>

 No.218657

>>218650
this makes me think about an ethical question of sorts that i've asked some socialists, if the entire british isles established itself as a socialist republic in the 1900s and the easter uprising still happened who would be better so support ?
>>

 No.218658

>>218640
>>voot democrat
Only as a short-term, realpolitik measure. And even then, I am only talking about progressive Democrats, not Biden types. I don't really care if you want to vote for Biden, but I do think it's important to provide critical support to people like Bernie Sanders and AOC.
>>support blm and lgbtq movements
I can understand not wanting to vote for Democrats, but what is wrong with supporting those movements?

>>218643
>>218650
Are Canadian reservations at least slightly better than American reservations? And what about Nunavut? Is it better for natives to live in a native-controlled province than a non-native-controlled one? If so, giving them more autonomy in a capitalist state doesn't seem that unreasonable. Also, the dynamics would likely be much different in a socialist state.
>>

 No.218660

File: 1620084772209.jpg (66.28 KB, 480x360, 1317477514070.jpg)

>>

 No.218664

>>218658
Supporting a racial supremacy movement and a bourgeois culture apologist lobby aren’t compatible with socialism for obvious reasons
>>

 No.218669

>>218658
>I can understand not wanting to vote for Democrats, but what is wrong with supporting those movements?
There's anything wrong with supporting the people in the streets protesting police violence but the actual BLM organization has been totally co-opted by the democrats and is now basically a wealthy NGO.
>>

 No.218670

>>218664
>a racial supremacy movement
Are you referring to BLM? If so, they are not a racial supremacy movement. They just want black Americans to stop being treated like shit.
>a bourgeois culture apologist lobby
What are you referring to here? LGBTQ movements?
>>

 No.218673

>>218612
They aren't?
>>

 No.218677

>>218669
>There's anything wrong with supporting the people in the streets protesting police violence but the actual BLM organization has been totally co-opted by the democrats and is now basically a wealthy NGO.
I personally think we should, at the very least, offer critical support to both. Bear in mind it's hard to find any progressive organizations with any real power that haven't been co-opted by the Democrats in some way, shape, or form.
>>

 No.218679

File: 1620085016730.jpg (23.78 KB, 474x465, Pepe closeup.jpg)

>>218652
So the PFLP is reactionary for trying to establish a unified State of Palestine instead of dissolving all states?
>>

 No.218684

>>218679
Goalposts: moved
>>

 No.218687

>>218679
no but hamas is
>>

 No.218697

>>218677
>I personally think we should, at the very least, offer critical support to both.
I'll support the people out in the streets burning down police stations, but the BLM Global Network is funded by the Ford Foundation. They're taking booj money and aren't to be trusted.
>>

 No.218705

>>218697
no shit thats been the general opinion of BLM here for a while
>>

 No.218706

>>218687
Communists should support Hamas as an anti-colonial and anti-imperialist force.
>The struggle that the Emir of Afghanistan is waging for the independence of Afghanistan is objectively a revolutionary struggle, despite the monarchist views of the Emir and his associates, for it weakens, disintegrates and undermines imperialism; whereas the struggle waged by such “desperate” democrats and “Socialists,” “revolutionaries” and republicans as, for example, Kerensky and Tsereteli, Renaudel and Scheidemann, Chernov and Dan, Henderson and Clynes, during the imperialist war was a reactionary struggle, for its results was the embellishment, the strengthening, the victory, of imperialism.
-Stalin
>>

 No.218720

>>218697
The thing is that the BLM Global Network can coordinate activities in a way that randos in the street can't. I do think BLM Global Network should be called out for taking corporate donations, but I don't think we should shun them entirely. Most of their work is still good. I don't oppose building more radical alternatives to them though.
>>

 No.218721

>>218679
I don't know anything about the PFLP but if all they want to do is create a Palestinian state then yeah I hate to break it to you buddy. Without the end goal of abolishing states and establishing international socialism then even in some far fantasy where they were successful, at the end of the day it'll just be another neolib satellite state with Palestinian leaders ordering Palestinian police to gas and force Palestinians out of their homes.
>>

 No.218722

>>218706
so when hamas kills the PFLP and all the other different left wing groups in favor of pan-islamists will they still get your support ?
>>

 No.218730

>>218706
Critical support for ISIS and their battle against US imperialism
>>

 No.218767

>>218721
They're Marxists, so presumably they see the abolition of states as a distant goal, but they also see the creation of a Palestinian state as a necessary part of their national liberation.

>>218722
Nice fan fiction.

>>218730
ISIS was created by the US to destabilize Iraq and Syria. They are not an anti-imperialist force.
>>

 No.218780

>>218767
>thinking whatever group that seizes power in palestine is not gonna immediately consolidate power and purge anything that isn't ideologically compatible with them when the guns stop shooting
>>

 No.218783

>>218706
>Communists should support Hamas as an anti-colonial and anti-imperialist force.
Okay, why.

>quoting scripture


Stalin might have a point that supporting reactionaries can be worthwhile if imperialism overall is weakened, but you have to make the argument that whatever Hamas or the PFLP are trying to accomplish will weaken Imperialism in the long run. If they cast off Israeli oppression just to supplant it with Palestinian oppression, then that obviously isn't happening.

Even if it is a case of two imperialist groups murdering each other, that means that Hamas should be supported only just enough to keep in the fight and waste the time and resources of both for actual socialists to swoop in when they've been weakened and off the lot of them.
>>

 No.218788

>>218551
>>218575
I didn’t make the flag, it was the first one I found that wasn’t pure retardation
>>

 No.218791

>>218783
Pretty much anyone who would put an end to ethnic cleansing in Palestine is deserving of at least critical support. The status quo has set the bar very low, so it doesn't take much to improve on it. The goal should always be improvement, not ideological purity.
>>

 No.218792

>>218780
Nice fan fiction.

>>218783
Imperialism is the highest stage of capitalism. We are anti-capitalists. Hamas is an anti-imperialist force. I don't think I have to complete the syllogism for you. And just to be clear: Are you worried about Palestinian imperialism in… Palestine?
>>

 No.218793

File: 1620086326361.png (452.41 KB, 554x520, moron baby.png)

>>218720
>The thing is that the BLM Global Network can coordinate activities in a way that randos in the street can't.
Coordinate what, on the behalf of whom? With billionaire and corporate money fueling them, they're not going to do anything that actually helps black people.

>I don't think we should shun them entirely.

Eh, I guess. If they want to bail out protestors and arm regular people with all their money, I'm not going to insist we turn up our noses at them, not until we've pumped them for all their worth anyway.

>I don't oppose building more radical alternatives to them though.

Word
>>

 No.218841

>>218767
>They're Marxists
Even if that's true that doesn't mean they can't also be reactionary.

>presumably

If their stance is such that you have to presume what their ultimate intentions are then I don't think I'm going to hold my breath.
>>

 No.218874

>>218841
Explain why wanting to create a socialist, anti-imperialist Palestinian state is wrong.
>>

 No.218879

>>218793
>Coordinate what
Protests, legislation, political campaigns, etc.
>on the behalf of whom
Their supports, both financial and non-financial. I doubt all or even most of their money comes from corporations. From what I've read, it sounds like most of it comes from small donors. They do admittedly have transparency issues though.
https://apnews.com/article/black-lives-matter-90-million-finances-8a80cad199f54c0c4b9e74283d27366f
>>

 No.218981

File: 1620088089069-0.png (654.71 KB, 1024x343, eed8e4120f8e80bef09f5ff17d….png)

File: 1620088089070-1.jpg (51.89 KB, 636x470, 7fc2445701fea819e7cbaf4530….jpg)

File: 1620088089070-2.jpg (95.83 KB, 728x410, aztec-digital-art-wallpape….jpg)

Socialism with North American characteristics that de-Westernizes and revives the ancient American civilization.
>>

 No.219014

File: 1620088535399-0.jpg (167.7 KB, 960x500, 438759847359834985.jpg)

File: 1620088535399-1.jpg (177.24 KB, 700x933, 43958734875983459834.jpg)

Also this wouldn't be a racial thing, more like a cultural awakening, negating both liberal idpol and reactionary Anglo brainrot while simultaneously out-tradding the trads. In any case, I think the left could use some imagination.
>>

 No.219047

File: 1620088857925.png (2.76 MB, 994x1000, ed42c56f327cc6e8f042547d5c….png)

This is the only answer.
>>

 No.219069

Well in any case, there are various tactical alliances you can try to form, and that's all well and good, but at the root of it I think the left should offer a different vision about a different way of life, that is political and radical, and not just "blow everything up." The ending of this video from some Russians I feel is pointing in the right direction around 18:00.

Think big. Don't think small.
>>

 No.219090

Americans are mainly a pragmatic people and view everything in terms of problem-solving. The biggest problem with the American left is that its loudest presumed representatives are finger wagging radlib twitter nags who want to cancel and censure everyone for wrongthink . They are dead weight. Such behavior is a symptom of bourgeois conspicuous leisure : only those with too much time on their hands engage in such nonproductive behavior.

The left must first get its own house in order and gulag/liquidate these types so that a more useful left can consolidate. The goal should be to solve problems, not to engage in this empty moralizing which the public has seen as synonymous with the left.
>>

 No.219093

America should be destroyed tbh
I hate that nuclear warfare has climactic affects, because honestly there is no hope for America
Americans are classcucked to such an extent that Americans genuinely shouldn’t be counted as actual people
Americans are just cattle for US capital to devour and destroy
That is all they are
That is all they choose to be
>>

 No.219095

>>219047
Indeed
Socialism is impossible in America
>>

 No.219097

>>218981
No thanks I enjoy my pants
>>

 No.219098

>>218623
Based and Redpilled

These liberals are the first to face the wall
>>

 No.219099

>>219014
that would obviously never happen in a million years but it would still be super cool. I'd love to see a revival of indigenous american languages among the population of people living in those territories.
>>

 No.219100

>>219069
Coming up with a vision for a better world is the easy part. The hard part is actually implementing it.
>>

 No.219101

>>218706
But communists should support colonialism and imperialism as a way to accelerate the end of capitalism
>>

 No.219103

>>218792
>We are anti-capitalists.
Wrong, stop being undialectical
>>

 No.219105

>>218602
>in some cases Europeans were actually invited to come and settle a place to make up for lost population
Just like in the modern western states lol
>>

 No.219107

>>219101
no, communists oppose colonialism and imperialism as a way to accelerate the end of capitalism. Imagine the last 70 years of history without the third world exploitation. The workers in the first world would have revolved instead of lived off the third world labor
>>

 No.219114

>>219103
That's not dialectical, that's Whig history.
>>

 No.219115

>>219107
>Imagine the last 70 years of history without the third world exploitation.
Yeah all you can do is imagine it because in real life that is an utopian liberal pipedream

I can't imagine it because in order to advance beyond capitalism the whole world needs to achieve capitalism, not just the the west
>>

 No.219119

>>219115
>I can't imagine it because in order to advance beyond capitalism the whole world needs to achieve capitalism, not just the the west
The whole world achieved capitalism like 100 years ago
>>

 No.219120

>>219114
Without capitalism there is no communism. Being anti-capitalist does not magically bring us to communism, and literally every single failed anti-capitalist experiment shows that
>>

 No.219124

>>219115
the world advanced beyond slave society when only part of the world had been conquered by slave society. The world advanced beyond feudalism when only a few parts of the world had achieved feudalism. This is an ahistorical position. Hell, socialism has literally existed in the past, well before capitalism took over the whole world in the 80's and 90's and 2000's.
>>

 No.219125

>>219119
Some countries were still under merkantilism 70 years ago. People still live under monarchies today
>>

 No.219127

>>219124
>The world advanced beyond slave society

The only part of the world that has advanced beyond slave society is the west lmao, google slavery on present times if you don't believe me
>>

 No.219131

>>219114
>whig history, is an approach to historiography that presents history as a journey from a dark and terrible past to a "glorious present".

The only ones doing this are the anti-colonial liberals
>>

 No.219141

>>219127
well if capitalism needs to brought outside the west for their benefit, so that capitalism can end, I assume you also support bringing slavery TO the west for our benefit, so slave society can end. Hope you're not a hypocrite anon. Somalia, please liberate us!
>>

 No.219148

>>219125
>Some countries were still under merkantilism 70 years ago.
I'm not sure mercantilism and capitalism are mutually exclusive
>People still live under monarchies today
Monarchies and capitalism definitely are not mutually exclusive. Heck, capitalism was largely born in monarchist states like the United Kingdom.

>>219127
Slavery doesn't exist anywhere in the world on the same sort of scale that it existed in, say, ancient Rome or colonial Haiti. I think the country with the largest slave proportion is Mauretania at 4%.
>>

 No.219150

>>219141
Or we can bring capitalism to somalia and other countries that still have slavery.

Oh wait, that's hekin colonialism and hekin problematic
>>

 No.219153

>>219148
Mercantilism and monarchism are clearly different than capitalism
>>

 No.219154

>>219150
True story, my econ teacher in high school once told me that Somalia was not an example of a capitalist country, but a "mixed economy", because "they dont produce anything". Mixed economy here meaning "socialism"
>>

 No.219159

>>219154
Most teachers are just dumb boomers tbh
>>

 No.219160

ITT people in the An*lo box
>>

 No.219171

>>218475
In my opinion a real socialist movement wont come from any traditional modes of worker power, i.e. unions, elections, etc. Those don't mean shit anymore. They were co-opted long ago. If the IWW was still relevant, sure, maybe we could use unions. But unions now are essentially just Democratic fundraising operations. Elections are similarly useless. In the modern form of capitalism resistance must come from worker-based, "outside the system" projects. Shit like what the Yippies wanted in the 60s - pirate radio, free tv, communes, worker councils, etc. If you try and use the things given to you by the system you only reinforce the system. Unions and elections both fall into this.

BLM was good, but is now fully co-opted by capitalism. We need a new Black Panther esque party to lead the charge for black liberation, an org that explicitly rejects corporate funding as well as capitalism, and that operates "from the masses, to the masses," as Mao would say.

Ultimately we need to build a "counter-economy" of worker-run councils, communes, patrols, radios, TVs, video games, etc. and then somehow kick off a big event of sorts (in minecraft) like a general strike or a… yeah.

TLDR - Create worker and people-run systems and communities and then co-ordinate through an International Vanguard to lead a worldwide revolt.
>>

 No.219173

>>219153
>Mercantilism
Mercantilism is just when you try to minimize imports and maximize exports. It can be combined with a range of other economic systems, like capitalism, feudalism, or even socialism.
>monarchism
Monarchism is a political system, while capitalism is an economic system. You can have a government led by a hereditary ruler while having an economy with privately owned, profit-driven enterprises.
>>

 No.219176

>>219173
>Mercantilism is just when you try to minimize imports and maximize exports.
No
>And even socialism
Lol no

>Monarchism is just political

No it isn't monarchism is also economic, monarchist countries have a distinct social order
>>

 No.219217

Lol if anyone interprets the past year as the left's revival, they don't know what is what. The left's been rolled up, the hardcore leftists are starting to break ranks in the face of covid world.
>>

 No.219224

>>219176
>>Mercantilism is just when you try to minimize imports and maximize exports.
>No
What is it then?
>No it isn't monarchism is also economic, monarchist countries have a distinct social order
Monarchist countries have had a wide range of economic systems. Or are you going to tell me that Victorian England had the same economic system as the Akkadian Empire?
>>

 No.219236

>>218536
Given it’s own colonial composition in the east do you think the Soviet Union was a settler state?
>>

 No.220441

>>219236
I think the USSR did a good job of desettlerizing their settler population by promoting anti-racism and giving the indigenous populations of the Russian Empire more control over their own affairs.
>>

 No.220537

>>219236
Baltic States were Florida of the USSR with rich soviet boomers living the rest of their lives there. Stans had more resettled people - like germans or koreans or chechens - than russian "settlers" (except for north Kazakhstan, but that's South Siberia, it's just too close to Russia). Far East is Far East.

So, what colonial composition?
>>

 No.220545

>>218542
>Justifying primitive accumulation and enclosure
Bruh
>>

 No.220547

>>218615
>No don’t destroy America it’s not right! You can’t!
Cringe burger “leftists” showing their true colors
>>

 No.220553

File: 1620138314560.png (6.85 KB, 728x364, jg8xo6w29u231.png)

>>218499
>giving W*sterners independence
I'd sooner see them nuked.
>>

 No.220565

>>218475
>no mention of how to fund any of this
larp
>>

 No.220572

The biggest impediment to progress is America's stubborn conservative base. Aside from Muslim Jihadis these are among the most stubborn, set in their ways, incorrigible people in the world. It is virtually impossible to reason with them, and because of how absurdly heavily armed and fighty they are, they make a formidable enemy. How to crack their psychological defenses and get them to see positions which are actually in their best interest?

I believe that the resurgence of the far right in America is a direct consequence of the failure of the left, particularly, to the extent that you can call them leftist, moderate liberal corporate democrats. It does not matter if democrats are not actual leftists, because that's what the conservative base thinks and one must conform to the realities of what they belief rather than pedantic details (which the left is obsessed with btw). The left has to be the adults in the room. They have to keep society from collapsing and the economy from melting down and another massive war. If it fails to do this, right wing demagogues will show up to take advantage of all the negative sentiment the crises of capitalism creates.
>>

 No.220685

>>218475
>Leftists should run as Democrats
Opinion discarded. They should run independent at least on a district and municipal level, then on a State and congressional one after gaining some support.


>Adopting IWW strategy

Seems good.Approved.

>Working with Dsa

Agreed but under reassurance from them not to glow on foreign policy, otherwise there's a bigger problem.

>Intersectionality

Stop with this fucking glowie bullshit.

>Paramilitarism

Good for strictly defensive purpose.

You seem to be too much focused on burger politics as it is anon and not as it should be.
We should be a clean break with the present for the people to appreciate us.
>>

 No.220689

>>218536
Stop LARPing
>>

 No.220693

>>218623
THIS THIS THIS

National liberation as a concept is way more useful than this woke bullshit.
>>

 No.220713

>>218475
Long term plan should be nuclear holocaust for America. This is why its so important to support China.
>>

 No.220728

File: 1620143872702.png (374.76 KB, 795x532, 1618370999651.png)

>>

 No.220828

>
I know leftypol is a class reductionist board, but the fact of the matter is that the American working class is too diverse for class reductionism. The American left should stand in opposition to all forms of oppression including, but not necessarily limited to, capitalism, racism, patriarchy, ableism, homophobia, and transphobia. The left also needs to be careful to avoid alienating subsets of the working class, like some ethnic groups, in their organizing work. For example, while they should take a firm stance against racism and white supremacy, the left should be careful to avoid a "Fuck whitey lmao" type mindset.


I have issue with this: First of all the wording of the term "class reductionist" is a bit of a misgnomer. We are not class reductionists, rather, we recognize that class is an integral part of all struggle.For example: Black people in the united states have been systemically oppressed not because of of some inherent spookyness like race, but, because of a chain of events and economic factors that gave racists power over them economically. The police also exist to uphold the system of capital. That is actual intersectionality. We are most concerned, as you said, with the libs.
>>

 No.220877

>>220828
>I know leftypol is a class reductionist
leftypol has a lot of Marxist posters, please don't use the neoliberal term for political persecution.
>>

 No.220883

Nobody cares stop making threads for your shithole country and keep it to your containment thread
>>

 No.220886

>The left is currently experiencing a revival in America
Wrong
> so it is now a good time for the American left to plan out its long-term strategy
Wrong
> Before we can figure out what strategies to pursue
There is no "we"

>The left should make a big priority of enacting electoral reform

Litterally the most retarded stategy possible. Electoral reform is the hardest possible policy to enforce and doesnt do shit for the left. (See all of Europe, it just results in centerist liberal goverments)
>The left should seek to abolish the electoral college
Once again a retarded , useless and impossible goal.
>The left should seek to abolish the filibuster, as it biases the legislative process in favor of the status quo.
Litterally who fuckin cares, it takes 50 votes to abolish, so once you have a left majority its already a done deal. Just work on electing the left.

Im not reading anymore. Filtered and thread hidden
>>

 No.220891

>>218482
You can't do that cause the cia will jus kill you
>>

 No.220907

Unionizing workplaces, building local cooperatives and actually building a more coherent and stable DSA is top priority imo.

Union. Cooperative. Party.
>>

 No.220913

>>220907
Co-operatives don't and have never worked. This was already debunked.
>>

 No.220919

"class reductionist" should filter to "not fucking retarded."
>>

 No.220920

>>220913
Cooperative alone doesn't work but it is imperative to building a socialist movement.
>>

 No.220937

>>220920
Wrong, and already debunked. Read Robert Owen, Read Leland Stanford, Read Todor Zhivkov.
>>

 No.220945

>>220877
This is from the OP itself I just fucked up the formatting.
>>

 No.220950

File: 1620148448169.jpg (59.6 KB, 1024x544, 1616740100432.jpg)

>>220886
Holy mother of glow.
>>

 No.220954

>>220907
Imagine still shilling the DSA at this point. I am much more content moving forward with the CPUSA.
>>

 No.220955

>>220937
Care to distill their opinions?
>>

 No.220957

>>220913

>debunked

>they exist and function

what is there to debunk?
>>

 No.220958

>leftists should run as democrats
never under any circumstances should leftists do this.
>>

 No.220962

>>220954
I mean if CPUSA can reach the numbers and size that DSA has then sure. A big tent left wing needs to form to advance goals on a national level and DSA seems like the closet to do so.
>>

 No.220966

>>220957
They are dysfunctional and barely exist despite people trying them since the beginning of capatilsm.
>>

 No.220967

>>220950
>>220950
How do I Glow?
>>

 No.220971

>>220962
Plz justify why you're posting this inane drivel outside your containment thread you storeshitting imbecile
>>

 No.220973

>>220945
oh i didn't read OP, i thought i was the general USA discussion thread, Sorry.
>>220919
>"class reductionist" should filter to "not fucking retarded."
yes, starting to think that's a reasonable idea
>>

 No.220975

>>220971
Not an argument.
>>

 No.220981

>>218475
Gulag all Democrats and the way forward will reveal itself. The Republicans are doing themselves in. Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
>>

 No.220988

File: 1620149406891.jpg (107.09 KB, 996x666, intersectionality.jpg)

>>220828
>>220973

Intersectionality is a framework for understanding oppression that acknowledges, for example, that people who are black and people who are women may be oppressed differently than white women or black men, and that people who suffer from specific intersections of oppression have unique concerns and may face problems attaining recognition. Intersectionality is an incomplete thesis and lacks a superstructure, or really any structure, other than the intersection of oppression. However, and I think this is important to note, is that intersectionality doctrine is not itself incompatible with Marxism, since intersectionality implies that the same fundamental mechanism for class oppression is found also in racialist oppression. However, and the thing that does cause some grief, is the question as to whether addressing class conflict is the same thing as addressing systemic racism. I wish to point out that the bourgeois state both promotes the interests of the ruling class and also promotes white supremacy, homophobia, xenophobia, etc. Whether you interpret these other issues to be a "distraction" or an instance of the working class being divided upon other lines other than class issues, it doesn't actually matter. The solution, regardless, is solidarity. Everyone, we should acknowledge, has issues specific to their community. If you want to build a rainbow coalition like Fred Hampton, you have to acknowledge the validity of these issues. The construction of a modern rainbow coalition is the building of working class solidarity. It is necessary to do this because there is currently a lack of class consciousness. It is necessary in building class consciousness to provide a framework for solidarity.
>>

 No.221001

>>220966

>dysfunctional


In what unique way is a modern cooperative dysfunctional as compared to any average startup? They struggle purely on two fronts, sources of capital and experience with the form of organization. You either get people who struggle to start worker cooperatives because they aren't familiar with running business and may be unable to find similar support networks that exist for normal entrepreneurs, or in the other you have people who simply don't even know of the option. When cooperatives achieve a level of presence in a region that creates ecosystems of support and funding, they grow more rapidly than comparable regions without the same networks of information and available capital. That is why the places where they've achieved some relatively significant market presence are so localized, but this is typical of many economic developments across history. Thriving economies of private burghers often localized on ports in the early period of capitalism's development, because that is where the bulk of commerce was happening. Such towns also began to have semblances of self-management and republicanism in the sea of pre-modern nobel prerogative, as the property owning burghers of the common class formed political systems that were supposed to balance and protect their mutual interests in property. Which is to say that history isn't static. Whether cooperatives, communist parties, labor unions or anything else wax and wane because of undulating material conditions, that doesn't give us access to the future. We don't know what will be the breeze that starts the hurricane of social change.
>>

 No.221005

>>220441
Ah yes, they did a great job desettlerizing their population by kicking Tatars out from Crimea and leaving it for only Slavs
>>

 No.221007

>>220967
How don't you glow? Look at yourself.
Doomer ass, fuck off.

>>220988
No, I disagree. I think internationality is totally incompatible with marxism. Intersectionality is an idealistic notion that seems to think that oppression, funny enough, is just an individual bubble that different identities of people exist in rather than seeing it all for what it is. A material and economic development through out the progression of history all tethered together through a common binding which is class. Intersectionality, just like Modern Monitary thoery is just one step away from being Marxism, but, through bias and ideological blinders is just liberalism. Perhaps it is reductionist to say class binds all, but, the fact of the matter is that class is the historical and material tether than binds us all in one form or another.
>>

 No.221011

>>221007
>Doomer

Lmao stfu loozer. Uniting with democrats is the most suicidal doomer shit you can do.
>>

 No.221012

>>221005
>kicking out settlers is bad
>>

 No.221013

>>220547
>Not wanting to be kicked out of your country or made a second-class citizen is cringe
>>

 No.221021

File: 1620150085225.jpg (151.81 KB, 1000x665, 5fb4fbfb5abb752053273af560….jpg)

>>221011
There you go glowing again

>>221012
Actually, yes, and this is exactly why intersectionality fails as a theory because it is not rooted in the material.

Who is and who is not a settler is totally idealistic and subjective. This is why Marx comes out on top of all.
>>

 No.221025

>>221021
<Maybe we shouldn't ally ourselves with a political party completely opposed to our very existence
>FUK U GLOWIE!!!!!!!
The fuck is wrong with you?
>>

 No.221026

>What is to be done
Nothing. Seriously, the only thing that'll take this country down is nuclear warfare, climate collapse, or balkanization. Americans are so brainwashed that it's geniunely hard to find a leftist who isn't secretly a lib, a glow, and has read some modicum of theory. I critically support Texas independence for the dissolution of the union and critically support China and Russia in their opposition to the West.

"Organizing" is just a LARPfest. If you do anything that might bring actual change to this country, you're going to get "shut down" by the glowies.
>>

 No.221027

>>221021
Deranged.
>>

 No.221033

>>221021
Settler roughly correlates with soviet term for kulak. It's a "petit exploiter", i.e. shop owner/farmer/small producer using heavily exploited labor of natives while stealing from them their land, rentier, loan shark, landlord, etc, only in case of settlers they are non land native. Those shitters are common practice for imperialist nations, say, Russian Empire was refistributing tribal "no one's" lands in Caucasus and gave them to russian colonists, who immediately started reducing chechens living there to almost slaves. Chechens got the worst part of the land they inhabited, settlers got all the best parts. Such initial inequality quickly produced economic dependency, client reliationships, all that stuff
>>

 No.221034

>>220565
I mentioned funding here:
>Firstly, their campaigns should receive only small donations from individuals and large donations from working class organizations like labor unions. They should accept no corporate money.

>>220685
>Opinion discarded. They should run independent at least on a district and municipal level, then on a State and congressional one after gaining some support.
This is simply realpolitik. It might be reasonable to run as a third party at the local level, but at higher levels it would be much harder. I am not suggesting they run as Democrats because I love the Democratic Party, but because they cannot win any other way, at least until some big electoral reforms are made. Maybe your strategy of building up momentum for a third party starting at the local level might work, but that would take time. Meanwhile, we need some other way to get leftists elected to high offices.
>Stop with this fucking glowie bullshit.
It is necessary if we want to be able to organize the highly diverse American working class.
>>

 No.221039

>>221034
How do you not understand by now that a leftist CAN NEVER gain any sort of power within the Democratic Party?
>>

 No.221041

>>220886
>>The left is currently experiencing a revival in America
>Wrong
DSA, CPUSA, IWW, and other leftist organizations have all seen significant growth in recent years. Additionally, a slew of progressive have gotten elected to public office at the local, state, and federal level.
>Electoral reform is the hardest possible policy to enforce and doesnt do shit for the left. (See all of Europe, it just results in centerist liberal goverments)
Europe has universal healthcare and strong unions; America does not.
>>

 No.221044

File: 1620150729098.jpeg (38.66 KB, 474x589, hubjhbhjhjb.jpeg)

>>221025
Let me ask you something, anon: I am a working person. I go to work, I pay my bills, I go home and jerk off to crazy obscure animiated pornography on the internet and, occasionally, I have sex.

At work I am an out and out communist. I promote the IWW and the CPUSA. Since I started working here our union membership has nearly doubled from 60% to almost 80% participation. I do this not by coming off that a crazy revolutionary ready to behead the Store director, but, rather, I do it by slowly appealing to the minds of my fellow workers by being willing to at least LISTEN to them and hear their concerns. I am not a fan of rebranding and I don't think that we should be out right not using the term socialist or communist as that seems deceptive, but, I think that we need to be less like our incel >>221027 friend here and more like normal people.
And at least seeing eye to eye with people, even libs and normies who voot for the deems is going to be more productive than being an ultra like the incel poster.

I disagree that the CPUSA should be pushing people to VOTE for the dems and this needs to be addressed, but, that can come at a later date. I think we ARE doing the right thing by showing solidarity and meeting people on common ground and seeing eye to eye with your normal person.
>>

 No.221050

>>220913
>Co-operatives don't and have never worked.
<Longevity and resilience
<According to an analysis of all businesses in Uruguay between 1997–2009, worker cooperatives have a 29% smaller chance of closure after controlling for variables such as industry.[15] In Italy, worker owned cooperatives that have been created by workers buying a business when it's facing a closure or put up to sale have a 3 year survival rate of 87%, compared to 48% of all Italian businesses.[16][unreliable source] A 2012 study of Spanish and French worker cooperatives found that they “have been more resilient than conventional enterprises during the economic crisis."[17] In France, the three year survival rate of worker cooperatives is 80%-90%, compared to the 66% overall survival rate for all businesses.[18] During the 2008 economic crisis, the number of workers in worker owned cooperatives in France increased by 4.2%, while employment in other businesses decreased by 0.7%.[19]
<Pay and employment stability
<A 2006 study found that wages on co-ops pay in Italy were 15 to 16 percent lower than those that capitalist firms paid on average, and were more volatile, while employment was more stable. After controlling for variables, such as schooling, age, gender, occupation, industry, location, firm-size, user cost of capital, fixed costs, and deviations in its real sales, this changed to 14 percent. The authors suggest this is due to worker cooperatives being more likely than capitalist firms to cut wages instead of laying off employees during periods of economic difficulty.[20] A study looking at all firms in Uruguay concluded that when controlling for variables such as industry, firm size, gender, age and tenure, workers employed in a worker-managed firm earn 3 percent higher wages compared with similar workers employed in the conventional firms. However, this wage premium declines significantly with increasing pay and becomes negative for top earners.[21] According to research by Virginie Perotin, which looked at two decades worth of international data, the tendency for greater wage flexibility and employment stability helps explain why some research observes higher and others lower pay in worker cooperatives relative to conventional businesses.[22] A study by The Democracy Collaborative found that in the US, worker cooperatives can increase worker incomes by 70 to 80 percent.[23][unreliable source]
<Pay inequality
<In the Mondragon Corporation, the world's largest worker cooperative, the pay ratio between the lowest and the highest earner was 1:9 in 2018. The ratio is decided by a democratic vote by the worker-members.[24]
<In France, the pay ratio between the highest and lowest paid 10% of the employees is 14% lower in worker cooperatives than in otherwise similar conventional firms.[25]
<Productivity
<According to Virginie Perotin's research which looked at two decades worth of international data, worker cooperatives are more productive than conventional businesses.[22] Another 1987 study of worker cooperatives in Italy, the UK, and France found “positive” relationships with productivity. It also found that worker cooperatives do not become less productive as they get larger. A 1995 study of worker cooperatives in the timber industry in Washington, USA found that “co-ops are more efficient than the principal conventional firms by between 6 and 14 percent”.[26]
<Worker satisfaction, trust, health and commitment
<According to a study drawing on a questionnaire from the population of the Italian province of Trento, worker cooperatives are the only form of enterprise that fosters social trust between employees.[27] A survey conducted in Seoul suggests that in conventional firms, employees become less committed to their job as their work becomes more demanding; however, this was not the case in worker cooperatives.[28] In the US, home health aides in worker cooperatives were significantly more satisfied with their jobs than in other agencies.[29] A study from 2013 about home aid workers found that "Home health aides at the worker-owned, participative decision-making organization were significantly more satisfied with their jobs than those at other other agencies."[30] One 1995 study from the US also indicates that “employees who embrace an increased influence and participation in workplace decisions also reported greater job satisfaction”[31] and a 2011 study in France found that worker-owned businesses “had a positive effect on workers’ job satisfaction.”[32] One 2019 study indicates that “the impact on the happiness of workers is generally positive”.[33]
<Environment
<A 1995 analysis published in Ecological Economics suggests that "cooperatives will tend to use natural resource inputs more efficiently and will be less growth oriented than corporations."[34]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_cooperative#Research_on_worker_cooperatives
>>

 No.221055

>>220988
Really dude, i mean REALLY?
After the fuckin CIA signalled intersectionality is part of their policies, REALLY?
>>

 No.221059

>>221055
Do you honestly believe an idea is tainted and unusable just because the wrong organization uses it as bait?
>>

 No.221062

>>220954
One can support both. DSA is the most powerful left-of-center organization in the United States, so it would be wise for leftists to at least offer critical support to them.

>>220958
It's just realpolitik. Leftists should jump ship from the Democratic Party as soon as they reasonably can.
>>

 No.221064

>>221034
>It is necessary
Dude how about just not being racist or homophobic?
Is not like you have to make a fuss about that, how about basic human decency instead of creating convoluted policies which end up just crashing and burning every conceivable leftist org?

<At higher levels would be much harder

We are socialists we have NO INTEREST in legitimizing their circus. Either we get our seats at the table representing our ideas proudly and in the open or we don't engage in elections altogether.
If rn you only have potential to engage in local politics you simply do just that, and only after gaining strength you scale up with time more and more.
>>

 No.221066

>>221059
Anything which is not explicitly against them will be redirected and coopted by them so YES.
>>

 No.221068

>>221012
The Slavs were the settlers dumbass, not the Tatars
>>

 No.221069

>>221062
Nah I disagree totally. At that point we should just support the CPUSA because the CPUSA is explicitly Marxist while the DSA is just a bunch of libs. AOC was the death kneel for the DSA. Support the CPUSA and the IWW.
>>

 No.221071

>>221069
How about PSL?
>>

 No.221074

>>221071
Eh, irrelevant, tbh.
>>

 No.221076

>>221059
Recuperation takes everything but the radical parts of something so if you can recuperate something wholesale then it was never radical to begin with.
>>

 No.221077

>>221021
>Actually, yes, and this is exactly why intersectionality fails as a theory because it is not rooted in the material.
>Who is and who is not a settler is totally idealistic and subjective. This is why Marx comes out on top of all.
What that guy posted has nothing to do with intersectionality
>>

 No.221079

>>221077
Yeah it kinda does.
>>

 No.221086

>>221039
>How do you not understand by now that a leftist CAN NEVER gain any sort of power within the Democratic Party?
They already have gained some power. Besides, I would much rather have Democrats in office who are funded by the working class than Democrats who are funded by big corporations. While being a part of the Democratic Party influences their policy platforms, their funding sources do too.

>>221064
>Dude how about just not being racist or homophobic?
We need to call them out and understand how they operate if we want to address those things.
>We are socialists we have NO INTEREST in legitimizing their circus.
It's not about legitimizing the circus, it's about gaining and wielding power. Electoralism is one part of a multi-faceted strategy for the left to gain power.
>Either we get our seats at the table representing our ideas proudly and in the open or we don't engage in elections
People will just ignore you if you don't participate in elections.
>If rn you only have potential to engage in local politics you simply do just that, and only after gaining strength you scale up with time more and more.
We'll just have to agree to disagree here, as I think we should run candidates at as many levels as you can.
>>

 No.221087

For supposedly being all about solidarity, you guys sure do like to push people away.
>>

 No.221088

File: 1620151888900.jpg (11.24 KB, 178x255, 1424041845633.jpg)

>the left is currently experiencing a revival
occasional radlib risings which show no sign of being about class warfare
>what is to be done
focus on Europe and Asia.
>>

 No.221090

>>221087
Because Americans are terminally cucked and retarded
>>

 No.221093

>what is to be done?
Relentless mockery and bullying until they understand they're just another country and a shit one at that
>>

 No.221094

>>221069
>AOC was the death kneel for the DSA.
What do you mean by that? If anything it seems she helped grow the organization.
>>

 No.221097

>>221094
AOC is a firebrand, depending on her rhetoric, a potentially useful one.
>>

 No.221102

>>221097
Is that bad?
>>

 No.221104

>>221102
She's invested in criticising corporations and introducing welfare, if we can seek out her fans then it won't be difficult to radicalise them
>>

 No.221105

>>221090

This literally isn't true though. >>221044 third worldists are retards and lay as fuck People of college.

>>221097

Abysmally retarded take.
>>

 No.221107

>>221104
Oh ok, I think I agree with this.

>>221105
Oh shit, there's two syndie posters.
>>

 No.221109

>>221105
>IWW
declawed
>CPUSA
sorry, who's being abysmally retarded?
>>

 No.221118

>>221107
No incel poster just changed flags because I am right.

>>221109
Kys glowie.
>>

 No.221125

File: 1620152860054.jpg (20.46 KB, 202x267, 99d0dbdeb29fdaa10818071bb7….jpg)

>>221118
IWW and CPUSA are irrelevent and you're a massive faggot. you can't prove me wrong.
>>

 No.221128

>>221125
Their membership's exploded recently and only continues to climb. Pay attention, dweeb.
>>

 No.221131

>>221007
My whole point is that intersectionality suggests a common binding for oppression, just as Marxism does. Intersectionality lacks a superstructure. The common binding in Marxism isn't class but actually the superstructure that places the ruling class, the subordinate bourgeois state, and bourgeois institutions at the top, the proletariat at the bottom, and the proletariat being composed of multiple parts. It would not be a radical statement to acknowledge that the proletariat is comprised of subcomponents, such as petite bourgeois "small business owners" or cops who are not themselves part of the bourgeoisie but emulate bourgeois values and serve as a vanguard for the ruling class, occupying various institutions that are themselves totally subordinate to the ruling class. The proles themselves may also be oppressed by other forms of oppression, but these forms of oppression, like class warfare, are themselves consequence of the superstructure. Intersectionality does not indicate the presence of a superstructure but speaks of a common binding between forms of oppression. Marxism can fill that hole. I think if we can radicalize so-called "intersectionalists" by telling them that there is a superstructure responsible for oppression. However, if we just say that the binding component is class they'll think we mean the binding component is class oppression, which to them would sound just as ridiculous as saying the binding component is homophobia. Marxist conception of class necessitates class structure whereas intersectionalist conception of class just treats it as another avenue of oppression. I think that a Marxist reinterpretation of intersectionality is possible and that it would be instrumental but it can only be achieved through a clarification of what class is, and the use of bridging language that enables intersectionalists to see the forest and not merely individual trees. It is historical fact that whiteness in USA was invented by an English planter elite to prevent English indentured servants from aligning themselves with black african slaves to rise up against their common oppressor.


I agree that modern monetary theory is an incomplete thesis. Richard Wolff comments that MMT is missing something… https://youtu.be/etO6UqaDdRA
>>

 No.221134

>>221125
PSL is even more irrelevant (and more ultra) and DSA are glow ops. It's what we have. Stop being a lazy pos and get a job NEET faggot and start building the future you desire.
>>

 No.221143

>>221131
Yes none of this is technically incorrect what I am saying is that Dialectical Materialism does a far superior job explaining it and tethering it all together. Intersectionality theory should just be tossed into the dust bin of history.
>>

 No.221150

>>221055
The idea that people can be oppressed along multiple, separate forms is not anti-Marxist. My point, and I don't think you got this, is that intersectionality is missing the superstructure. It suggests that there is a binding mechanism for class oppression as there is for racist oppression. Marxism acknowledges the same point. The difference between intersectionality and Marxism is that intersectionality lacks the superstructure component. You could say that intersectionality is a defanged version created by libs. I agree that a worldview that consists only of intersectionality would be fundamentally incomplete and lopsided. I agree also that this is to the benefit of the state which doesn't wish to be seen as in league with the ruling class, or as part of a superstructure.
>>

 No.221153

>>221143
>Yes none of this is technically incorrect
>>221131
>It would not be a radical statement to acknowledge that the proletariat is comprised of subcomponents, such as petite bourgeois "small business owners"
Range ban USA for a week for this plox
>>

 No.221162

>>221134
How is PSL ultra? They support every socialist and anti-imperialist government in the world, they support unions, and they even run candidates for office.
>>

 No.221168

>>221062
Aligning in any way the democrats is a huge mistake imo, they are the most hated group in the entire country.
>>

 No.221176

I don’t see why everyone shouldn’t just join CPUSA, every reason I’ve seen not to just seems like cope. Sure they don’t currently have the best line but how else do you expect to change it?
>>

 No.221192

>>221176
I don't have any statistical evidence for saying this but I think far more young people are aware of the DSA than they are of CPUSA. I think the DSA sucks, for the record, but CPUSA also sucks. I am for left-unity, however, so I support both as of now. Social democracy is not the end goal but I support those who advocate for it because I am ultimately for pushing the needle to the left, just in the same way that I am for anarchists who create autonomous zones and take over police stations.
>>

 No.221206

>>221192
That’s fair enough, I don’t particularly see much future in the DSA seeing as they have really thrown themselves into a position of aligning with the democrats, alienating large amounts of working people. Of course I don’t wish ill on anyone who joins with hopes of changing them from within, I just feel they are more far gone than the CPUSA at this point in this regard. At least for communists, I think checking out your local branch of the CPUSA is a smart move.
>>

 No.221221

File: 1620154825547.mp4 (13.05 MB, 640x360, What A Democratic Socialis….mp4)

>>221192
anytime someone mentions DSA i think of this video. If you ever wanted to create a cringe fest that completely alienates normal people this is how you do it
Also there's no such thing as left unity.

You either are for the dictatorship of the proletariat or you're a cuckdem
>>

 No.221232

>>221221
So there's only going to be a handful of us as we screech and…then die.
>>

 No.221236

>>221041
>progressive
Not leftist
>Europe has universal healthcare and strong unions; America does not.
Brought about largely through the presence of the USSR which gave pressure for the porkies to give some crumbs for the plebs.
>>

 No.221255

>>221221
See this kind of insane shit is exactly what I was talking about here >>221044
>>

 No.221305

>>221168
>they are the most hated group in the entire country
What makes you say that? Joe Biden has had an approval rating higher than 50% for his entire presidency so far.

>>221221
>A cherrypicked clip of a meeting posted on YouTube by a right-wing channel represents the entire DSA
There are a lot of things to criticize the DSA for, but goddamn that is low-hanging fruit.
>>

 No.221311

>>221221
>>221192
This is precisely what I refer to when I mention that DSA sucks. However, DSA does not simply suck because of this but also because its relevancy is tied to bourgeois parties. PSL, SEP, etc., suck because they don't even have relevancy.

>>221221
>>Also there's no such thing as left unity.
>>You either are for the dictatorship of the proletariat or you're a cuckdem
>if you don't practice my very specific irrelevant leftist tendency, then you are a cuck
Meatspace organizing is the only thing that matters. That is why I am for left unity. If we waited until everyone was onboard with a specific theoretical tendency, we will never achieve a working class movement. The only path for MLs at that point is to wait for a civil war and to do a guerilla warfare, but guess what, you don't even have enough relevancy to do that! This is why you are a LARPER. Revolution can only happen as a result of a working class movement.
>>

 No.221316

>>221305
Gonna need to see citations on that about biden anon.
>>

 No.221317

>>221236
>Brought about largely through the presence of the USSR which gave pressure for the porkies to give some crumbs for the plebs.
A lot of countries got universal healthcare for the first time after the USSR collapsed. You can't chalk it all up to le red hero forcing le evil boojies to play nice.
>>

 No.221320

>>221305
>cherrypicked
I remember it at the time and it was constant cringe.
>>

 No.221322

>>221320
So? That doesn't disprove my point.
>>

 No.221341

>>221322
At what point does it stop being cherrypicking?
>>

 No.221350

>>221305
Isn’t 50 percent a pretty normal approval rating for this early into his presidency? He’s given some speeches about infrastructure and stuff and doing his whole “I’m gonna be FDR 2” shtick that people seem to believe for some reason, but i don’t really see how that reflects people’s general feelings toward the Democratic Party as a whole. Plus with people like AOC representing DSA to a majority of Americans, it only serves to confuse and muddle the meaning of socialism through guilt by association.
>>

 No.221362

>>221319
Alright, so, we actually need more data than this because I have no idea what the sample size was for this polling. Majority of Americans do not even vote and this makes me skeptical of how people actually feel about him. What we really need to be paying attention to is the X amount of people who do not vote.
>>

 No.221374

>>221341
It doesn't, the whole clip is cherrypicked. Here's a clip from that same convention posted on DSA's official YouTube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljlxNCL6v1I

>>221350
>Isn’t 50 percent a pretty normal approval rating for this early into his presidency?
Yeah it is, although Trump was never able to get that high.
>i don’t really see how that reflects people’s general feelings toward the Democratic Party as a whole
According to Pew Research Center, 47% of Americans view the Democratic Party favorably and 51% view them unfavorably. Compare this to the Republican Party who is viewed favorably by 38% of Americans and unfavorably by 60%.
https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2021/03/11/views-of-the-democratic-and-republican-parties/

>>221362
>Alright, so, we actually need more data than this because I have no idea what the sample size was for this polling.
It's an aggregation of many polls.
>Majority of Americans do not even vote and this makes me skeptical of how people actually feel about him.
You can change the setting on the graph from "All polls" to "Polls of likely or registered voters" or "Polls of adults". The data does not change much between each setting.
>>

 No.221437

>>221374
In both cases the majority of people do not view either of the currently existing parties favorably. I’m not saying that communists should align with the republicans as opposed to the democrats, but that we need to distinguish our platform for the current bourgeois parties that make everyone miserable.
>>

 No.221438

>>221437
From* not for
>>

 No.221481

>>221437
>>221438
The point I was refuting was that the Democrats are the most hated group in the entire country, which is definitely not true when public opinion is split on them almost 50-50 and their rival is more unpopular. I do think that leftists should make it clear that they do not promote the same agenda as the DNC, but I still think it will be often necessary for leftists to run as Democrats if they want to win elections.
>>

 No.221605

>>221311
>for MLs at that point is to wait for a civil war and to do a guerilla warfare, but guess what, you don't even have enough relevancy to do that! This is why you are a LARPER. Revolution can only happen as a result of a working class movement.
The ML understander has logged on. Yes, MLs are all going to do guerilla warfare. No MLs are organising at all
What you mean when you say "left unity" ultimately means giving into opportunism and social chauvinism. You actually just want us to join some big tent party like the DSA or one of the big British trot groups that spends its time (inevitably) campaigning for the Democratic Party or the Labour party.
>>221305
>A cherrypicked clip of a meeting posted on YouTube by a right-wing channel represents the entire DSA
If DSA didn't organise like Idpol riddled retards a right wing channel wouldn't be able to make a nonstop hilarious 3 min video of them
>>

 No.221639

>>221605
>If DSA didn't organise like Idpol riddled retards a right wing channel wouldn't be able to make a nonstop hilarious 3 min video of them
I'm sure you could find an embarrassing 3 minute clip of any political organization if you looked hard enough
>>

 No.223195

File: 1620203617714.png (26.19 KB, 636x365, Growth_of_Russia_1547-1725….png)

>>220441
>I think the USSR did a good job of desettlerizing their settler population by promoting anti-racism and giving the indigenous populations of the Russian Empire more control over their own affairs.

But they didnt really though I mean all of the indigenous people of Siberia were bundled into the same Republic as the White population which effectively killed any chance of them having the kind of power and control of the land. Ethnically European and even some Turkic peoples were given their own republics under the USSR but they were not granted that.

I bring this up because I dont understand the theory very well but at an initial glance it looks like the Soviet Union gets treated to an easier standard.

>>220537
>So, what colonial composition?
The millions of people indigenous to Siberia who faced colonization and genocide by European Russians akin to what was seen in the United States and Australia/New Zealand.

Even you saying "Far East is Far East" is making joke of all native peoples from the Ainu to the Yukaghirs
>>

 No.223260

>>223195
Dude, basques don't have an autonomy, bretons don't have an autonomy, small slav cultures in Germany and Austria don't have autonomies, USA's closest thing to autonomy is a fucking indian reservation, and otherwise they have literal colonial administrations for "territories" like Puerto Rico. Do tell me why is that USSR gets treated to "an easier standard"
>>

 No.223293

>>220441
>Do tell me why is that USSR gets treated to "an easier standard"

Because the answer to the settler/colonisation problem in the US said by that anon was the abolition of the country and the return of all land to the indigenous followed by mass-reduction and expulsions.

Based on the response I got from that anon and it does seem like the Soviet Union has a lower standard as a similar process wasnt seen as appropriate.
>>

 No.223299

>>223260
>basques don't have an autonomy
That's technically not true, as all Spanish subdivisions are given autonomy as autonomous communities or autonomous cities.
>>

 No.223391

>>223299
Sorry, my bad. Still, you get what I mean - USSR grants autonomies and republic-doms left and right, admits independences and such since 1917, and bourgeois "democracies" can't grant an autonomy for half a century, if not more.

>>223293
>abolition of the country and the return of all land to the indigenous followed by mass-reduction and expulsions.

Personally, I'd like to see the South, California and Texas seccede from the Union, with wh*tes granted autonomies within them while the majority of land nationalized and given for use by the people actually working on that land. Only after such reorganization, with people living there given real power, can they get admitted back into the Union as actual independent states. That's my anti-americanism speaking, though.
>>

 No.223401

File: 1620209013132.jpeg (48.11 KB, 558x614, C2C7F95D-5425-4D06-924D-C….jpeg)

>>221021
>Settler colonialism is actually not a real thing
>>

 No.223422

>>223391
>That's my anti-americanism speaking, though.
I understand that feeling all too well/
>>

 No.238651

Bump
>>

 No.243824

>>

 No.243831

>>218636
I agree I’d like a principled marxist Critique of
>>

 No.243851

>>223401
It exists as a historical phenomenon but it's not really an accurate description of contemporary class relations in North America.
>>

 No.243900

>>220891
CIA is woke now
Comrades Intersectional Alliance
>>

 No.243977

>>218475

>The American left should stand in opposition to all forms of oppression including, but not necessarily limited to, capitalism, racism, patriarchy, ableism, homophobia, and transphobia

Kek
Yeh you guys are fucked. This is exactly why the left is losing ground virtually everywhere and fueling pure reaction.
>>

 No.243990

>>

 No.244016

>>243990
Wow this 1929 document is really relevant in regards a batshit radlib ideology that didn't exist then.
That was sarcasm.
>>

 No.246000

>>243977
Almost all relevant communist parties, especially in Africa and Latin America, have incorporated such social movements into their platform. Meanwhile all Communist parties are more secular oriented and open to the struggles of differing ethnic groups, women, and rewriting (revisionist conservative) history.

You have parties like the KKE who are against migrants being locked up in prison camps. Meanwhile, parties resistant to change have been pushed into irrelevancy. In the US, parties like the SWP or the RCP before 2003 have faced stagnation and lost members due to alienation, and are irrelevant in today’s movement outside of the core membership from 30 years ago.

“Woke” parties like the Chilean and Belgian communists, or the broad front in the Bolivian MAS, only further get relevant in building dual power.
>>

 No.246003

>>243851
I feel like that's like saying racism ended when Jim crow was aboliahed
>>

 No.246007

>>244016
Read it all
Spoiler They are inside out Nazis
>>

 No.246009

How many burger threads do we need. That one general is already painful enough.
>>

 No.246014

>>246009

This thread is good fuck you. The other burger thread is for shitposting. American left is so absolutely fucked we actually need serious practical discussion for this shit or no one does anything.
>>

 No.246561

>>246007
>They are inside out Nazis
No shit.Stunning insight. It's nazism turned on it's head ie inverted.We know this.Now what?
>>

 No.246570

>especially in Africa and Latin America, have incorporated such social movements into their platform
Is that why they're such an incompetent,corrupt shitshow?
> open to the struggles of differing ethnic groups, women
So bourgeois nationalism and idpol? Fantastic
>irrelevant in today’s movement outside of the core membership from 30 years ago.
So I guess that means bourgeois radlib idpol which fuels reaction is the way to go comrade
>>

 No.246572

>>

 No.247605

>>218475
America needs a Dengist vanguard party
>>

 No.247848

File: 1620933546072.png (21.12 KB, 300x237, thumb_o00oo-abacus-wojack-….png)

>>247605
>America needs a Dengist vanguard party

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