[ overboard / cytube] [ leftypol / b / hobby / tech / edu / games / anime / music ] [ meta ] [ GET / ref]

/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internets about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
Name
Email
Subject
Comment
Flag
File
Embed
Password (For file deletion.)


File: 1620153053493.png (11.74 KB, 198x200, logo-xr.png)

 No.221136[Last 50 Posts]

Is Extinction Rebellion in any way salvagable?
If not, how should the green movements carry themselves forward? I observe that Extinction Rebellion got a lot of attention and membership, which is good, I do wonder if that can be replicated without playing into the downsides of the organization and especially its almost exclusively liberal tactics.
Thoughts on a green mass movement going forward? I think this would be our last shot at preventing climate apocalypse, which I'm a bit blackpilled on the prospect of humanity actually achieving but worth trying nonetheless.
Are there green or ecologist etc. movements existent in your country which you think have the right idea already? If not, what would such a group look like?
>>

 No.221146

No
>>

 No.221151

>>221146
Making OPs put effort into their posts but not repliers is literally class oppression.
>>

 No.221157

>>221136
>If not, how should the green movements carry themselves forward?
how about capturing the state instead of nailing your balls to the pavement or having voodoo rituals in public parks…
i hate environmentalists.
>>

 No.221164

>>221157
>how about capturing the state
OH! OK, I'll go do that right away
>>

 No.221166

Extinction rebellion was literally a CIA Opsec Glow job. It never had anything to do with us in any way.
>>

 No.221173

>>221136
Xr glows in the fucking dark in a way that makes Fridays for Future look like the fucking Bolsheviks
>>

 No.221175

my burning passion for "hurr durr we will have de revolution and then we will stop wasting resources because of the central planner daddy and everyone will live like middle class don't worry about it" dude bro leftists impede me from actually joining the discussion
>>

 No.221184

Extinction Rebellion are cool and a fucking order of magnitude better than the left wing of capital cartel parties like Uk Labour or the Democrats in America.

in a short time they have managed to mobilise thousands of people in action and making brave public statements to get climate change on the agenda. Much better than boring old CLP meetings
>>

 No.221188

>>221184
>in a short time they have managed to mobilise thousands of people in action
This is what I'm focused on with them. Their glowing ass liberal tactics like "LET'S ALL GET ARRESTED TO OVERWHELM THE JAILS BROS!" are what could obviously be discarded first
>>

 No.221217

File: 1620154751629.png (409.01 KB, 382x417, ClipboardImage.png)

>>221188
>liberalism is when you do direct action
Can't you anti-XR shills post some quality sources for you claims for once? At this point I'm starting to think that you are the glowuyghurs here.
>>

 No.221224

>>221136
Liberal extremism
>>

 No.221227

File: 1620154912124.jpeg (193.15 KB, 1014x1080, 1619558758578.jpeg)

>>

 No.221231

>>221184
remember that time they decided the best way to draw attention to environmentalism was to interfere with fucking trains?
>>

 No.221240

>>221217
Direct action isn't when you walk around waving sighns around and jerking off about your favorite niche special snow flake ideology. Direct action is organizing WORKERS to over throw the chains of their oppression. I understand that there is no solid evidence to claim they are CIA assets, but, to anyone seasoned in leftist activity it glows. It just seems so obvious to me. The full media support should be proof enough for that.
>>

 No.221244

File: 1620155127682.gif (564.42 KB, 800x430, HYPERGLOW.gif)

>>221184
Why the fuck are we having this massive influx of radlibs here? It's upsetting
>>

 No.221249

File: 1620155301751.png (44.45 KB, 734x350, cringe.png)

I'm not usually one for the ol' sectarian "They don't agree with me on everything so let's just dismiss them" sort of thing, so by all means credit them with getting attention and what not, look at their tactics, structure, etc and see if anything can be learned, but I personally cannot get over how fucking cringeworthy they wind up being.

You might defend this as optics, but the only thing coming up on my rangefinder is that they'd prefer extinction to surrendering the illusion of being "above politics".
>>

 No.221251

>>221217
Holy fuck, do you unironically think getting arrested is some great tactic?
I agree it's a form of direct action, and their logic behind it halfway makes sense, but it still glows like fuck. You want activists to get arrested. Are you serious. There is much better direct action to do and AHEM, might I add, if you're going to be arrested anyway…
>>

 No.221266

>>221251
If you're afraid of getting arrested for hugging trees then how the fuck are you gonna wage a class war uygha.
>>

 No.221271

Just as a reminder: XR supported the coup in Bolivia and the pro-North American scab Yaku Perez.
>>

 No.221279

>>221217
>Can't you anti-XR shills post some quality sources for you claims for once? At this point I'm starting to think that you are the glowuyghurs here.
t. never went to an XR meting and knows exactly none of the people involved.
Just fuck off retard, okay?
>>

 No.221313

>>221278
maybe a good example of why class politics must be at the center of any movement/party. ecology should be a pressing matter that demonstrates the need for revolution, but it shouldn't be central.
does XR have any discussion of class? if not, it does sound like controlled opposition (not necessarily glowie plant) in that it's allowed to persist to set the limit of acceptable critique. but i haven't looked into them much.
>>

 No.221318

>>221279
Oh, I've never claimed to know shit about XR. I pretty much don't. It's just this rabid shitting on them with no backing up whatsoever has me a wee bit jostled, in facts my nerves would thank you if you could perhaps provide one single link to a good article investigating their connections to the glowies.
>>

 No.221354

>>221313
As someone who's been to a few XR meetings, let me say that the vast majority of people there are fully aware of the class based distinctions of the ecological crisis. This idea that they are all liberals is complete rot.


I get the feeling that a lot of the criticism of XR from the left comes from a certain po-faced jealously that they are actually getting people out on the streets.
>>

 No.221370

File: 1620157480383.png (395.91 KB, 640x900, Extinction Rebellion .png)

NO
>>

 No.221383

>>221318
i would hesitate before accusing them of outright glowing (given their scale i would be surprised if there wasn't some infiltration, but far too many fall back on that accusation automatically), it seems more appropriate to focus on their overwhelmingly middle class nature.
getting arrested on purpose is just a youthful lark when you're the teenage daughter of a wealthy director of public prosecutions, it's not quite so fun for ordinary people. their manner generally reveals their makeup.
Even morning star, which has "given unconditional support" to XR, was damning of >>221249 https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/e/socialism-or-extinction-xrs-tweet-and-capitalist-crisis

there is also something more to it. one sees the rationale between some direct action, where one is having a direct economic impact and so on - but a lot of XR seems like it's more or less protesting for the cameras. it has the same sort of flaw as people who think they should have a march against covid lockdowns or whatever. it sort of pre-supposes that there's someone out there in power listening, who'll go "Oh no, the people are upset" and then respond - but the people in power aren't afraid of marches at all. now obviously blocking the trains (the fucking trains! idiots!) or smashing bank windows or whatever actually causes economic harm, so there's at least some incentive to avoid that, but i remain to be convinced that it's much more than another way of getting press coverage, relying on the idea that someone up there is listening, that someone in power will see that the people don't want to be boiled to death and will respond by turning down the pollution factories… unlike in the reality, where a media movement begets a media response.
>>

 No.221385

>>221354
>I get the feeling that a lot of the criticism of XR from the left comes from a certain po-faced jealously that they are actually getting people out on the streets.
This is absolutely my impression from /leftypol/ at least.

Do you think XR could be fertile ground for radicalization? Or fuck it, please just write a few more sentences about your experience with them. I'm curious.
>>

 No.221396

>>221383
>i would hesitate before accusing them of outright glowing
Goalpost mooving.
>it seems more appropriate to focus on their overwhelmingly middle class nature.
Guilt by association/essentialism.
>when you're the teenage daughter of a wealthy director of public prosecutions
Aggravated misrepresentation.

Sorry comrade, had to stop reading there.
>>

 No.221397

>>221370
Imagine actually turning yourself in voluntarily. Holy shit this is maximum cringe.
>>

 No.221400

File: 1620157966606.jpeg (63 KB, 940x627, WhatsApp-Image-2020-10-09….jpeg)

>>221396
ah yes, i'm moving the goalposts by saying they're not glowies, they're just wankers
look at these twats, protesting a fucking railway. great job guys, let's scrap HS2 and put the money into bringing FlyBe airlines back to life instead eh?
>>

 No.221403

>>221244
Just correct them.
>>

 No.221404

>>221385
>This is absolutely my impression from /leftypol/ at least.
Then you are retarded because many of us were likely part of groups that got swallowed up by XR.
>>221397
>Imagine actually turning yourself in voluntarily. Holy shit this is maximum cringe.
They also ran out all the anarcho prison support groups money in london with this tactic.
>>

 No.221408

File: 1620158051519.png (136.75 KB, 620x675, ClipboardImage.png)

>>221396
>Goalpost mooving.
>Guilt by association/essentialism.
>Aggravated misrepresentation.
>>

 No.221416

>>221404
>They also ran out all the anarcho prison support groups money in london with this tactic.
Imagine being such a faggot you wilfully get yourself arrested then go ask for a handout to get you out of the trouble you went out of your way to get yourself in.
>>

 No.221420

File: 1620158216611.jpg (118.91 KB, 976x549, _110219749_916de5d5-a0f1-4….jpg)

hmm what mode of transport will we fuck with to help the planet… an airport…? a highway perhaps…? a seaport, to draw attention to the high emissions of imported goods?
no, i know, a railway! A FUCKING RAILWAY!

i know that this rather undermines my attempts to put forward a straight good faith argument before, but fundamentally "fucking with the trains" is everything that makes me distrust them in microcosm.
>>

 No.221427

>>221420
What happened to the based de lad who kept flying drones over Heathrow? That shit was hilarious for the impotent rage and cope it created.
>>

 No.221451

>>221427
i think they never got anybody for that lol. weren't two people arrested as suspects but then let go a few days later?
>>

 No.221460

>>221451
No idea, funny there was no conclusion. It's interesting that XR are happy fucking with trains but not planes. Absolute melt movement.
>>

 No.221467

>no one has passed this video yet
It's interesting how any possible moronic anglo-burger e-celeb is shilled on this board and the actual good content is ignored.
>>

 No.221487

File: 1620159458642.png (163.15 KB, 247x270, 1618952953702.png)

>>221404
The amount of glow here is off the charts holy shit.
>>

 No.221489

>>221420
I mean, we already know that they are not communists. But this is just more confirmation.

Remember this easy formula

TRAINS=COMMUNISM, the more TRAINS and RAIL you build the closer to COMMUNISM you get. Simple as.
>>

 No.221499

>>221489
So we should take over 1chan.net next is what you're saying?
>>

 No.221517

>>221499
Maybe a board dedicated to rail or just a general on this board because discussing trains is no different than discussing communism.
>>

 No.221531

File: 1620160165277-0.png (147.48 KB, 874x734, board map.png)

File: 1620160165277-1.png (140.17 KB, 874x734, board map blank.png)

>>221499
There is no question of leftypol engaging in a hostile takeover of other boards. That is not the socialist way.
Nevertheless, if other boards feel pushed into an anti-fascist protective alliance with leftypol by the ongoing aggressive actions of neo-nazis and their NATO compatriots, we must surely stand in solidarity with them and extend the bonds of brotherhood outwards to all boards in a voluntary alliance of their own free democratic will.

with blank in case anyone wants to put more effort in than i did
>>

 No.221572

File: 1620161141091-0.png (293.67 KB, 480x294, 1.png)

File: 1620161141091-1.jpg (185.88 KB, 1024x768, 2.jpg)

File: 1620161141091-2.jpg (98.06 KB, 680x680, 3.jpg)

it seems MSM has (predictably) stopped reporting on this and I can't find any English articles apart from machine translated crap but XR, together with another org (Fältbiologerna) and the local indigenous Saami are currently embroiled in a major action in a remote old-growth forest in northern Sweden, hindering the colonial logging company from doing their thing
pretty fucking based if you ask me
this morning the pigs apparently had a minor chimpout and put one person in the hospital

post more based stuff XR are doing in your administrative area and make some more terminally online praxislets seethe and cope

https://www.tellerreport.com/news/2021-04-29-more-activists-to-norrbotten-to-stop-deforestation.Bkur4o-_D_.html <- aforementioned machine translated crap
https://fb.watch/5frCoG1rN1/ <- i'm an fb h8r so i didn't check this, but it's supposedly video from the site
https://www.socialisterna.org/fullt-stod-till-blockaden-mot-skogsskovling/ <- trots declaring critical support
https://www.arbetaren.se/2021/04/28/hard-kritik-mot-polisen-efter-protester-mot-skogsskovling/ <- syndicalist paper, paywalled sadly

BASED BASED BASED
>>

 No.221629

>>221467
tbh while this was pretty good on the flaws of XR organizationally, the entire bit about "ooo the green new deal is just Keynesianism reheated" didn't really land tbh. i think once or twice there was a sort of passing "it's a dead end", but never even an explicit "it wouldn't work". so if you come at this being apathetic about capitalism (and XR is pretty open in not wanting to overthrow capitalism.) none of the rest of it sounds that interesting. oh no, devaluing all the oil industry capital and moving it into green energy industry would be destruction of capital on the level of WW2, hey, have some vague association with a NATO-EU-China-Russia WW2 without really making an explicit argument that's what's going to happen, oh no, to actually convert from fossil fuels to green energy would mean moving to a WW2 style population mobilization, which might mean lower wages (bad), higher taxes (varies) rationing (actually has its benefits tbh), and an increase in workload. (partially bad, but hey, full employment!)

if it came out and said "hey, and after all that effort it won't work at saving the planet" then it would be structurally sound, but it doesn't really - the claims about it being a dead end feel more like it being a dead end at saving capitalism than a dead end at saving the planet. so you're just left with "the green new deal will make life a bit shittier than it is now" which is hardly a killer blow when the alternative presented by the status quo is death by boiling, and the alternative proposed by prolekult is to live like a cuban - which if you're british, means wage reductions, possibly higher taxes, rationing, and maybe a reduced workload. that's a coin flip of difference!

(i'm going purely on the content of the documentary here, treat this as a review, do not treat it as my case for a Green New Deal.)
>>

 No.222027

>>221370
That sounds like a way to get radicals to self identify so they can be placed on all kinds of lists for surveillance.
>>

 No.222263

File: 1620170205116.png (395.91 KB, 640x900, 1_AXArnP9mRh1cJiRI5a6sDw.png)

>>221251
>>221136
>>221249
>>221184

https://medium.com/@mxfoxfox/going-to-prison-is-not-the-end-of-the-world-roger-hallam-and-xrs-white-saviour-problem-c34a33f3db93

>XR held a number of different events and campaigns over the last year that range from raising awareness through performance art, fundraising dance parties, talks, workshops, and occasional “mass civil disobedience” like the London occupations this year. The Red Handed Rebellion in particular is an action where protesters are encouraged to simply go and peacefully hand themselves in to the police because “at the police station, we can take pictures of ourselves with red hands, posting on social media with the hashtag #redhandedrebellion. This will additionally force the police into a dilemma situation, as people line up waiting to turn themselves in.”


>The idea of asking inexperienced protesters to simply turn themselves into the police, where they are not just using their privilege and giving up their “liberties” for the greater good but instead willingly asked to give their information, personal data and potential biometric information to an increasingly authoritarian and empowered police is frankly not only putting activists at a huge permanent risk for the rest of their lives, but also further putting other activists at risk too. It’s naive at best, and negligent at worst and deemed acceptable for the “greater good” of stopping ecocide.


>There have been multiple criticisms of this strategy that continue to highlight XR’s ignorance and privilege when it comes to the police. Earlier this year, XR released a prison guide which continues to show how far away XR is from genuinely understanding the experiences of those more marginalised when it comes to police, custody and imprisonment. “The guide, which has now been deleted from its website, advised that the risk of violence inside prison was very low because “most prison officers are black and do not wish to give you a hard time”. It also suggested people should use their time in prison to “practise yoga” and “learn from their experience”.”


>“At the same time obviously going to prison is a massive headache materially and politically for the authorities and once hundreds and then thousands of people do it in an organised and coordinated way, then in my scholarly opinion real policy changes are going to happen. It is the single biggest act of radical political and nonviolent effectiveness any social movement can decide upon.”


XR is a cointelpro op and anti-communist. They refuse to work with NLG and ACLU don't tell protesters what to do after being arrested and say that bail funds are anti environment and white supremecist. Their stated "goal" is to overwhelm the prison system by getting so many people arrested in collapses. Their real goal is to increase funding for police and be a palatable scapegoat for the media.
>>

 No.222284

>>

 No.222349

>>221629
>tbh while this was pretty good on the flaws of XR organizationally
I mean that is the point of linking it in this thread, not really GND stuff. The more important parts are that XR is cointelpro, its an op, its pro-capitalist, its anti-communist, its funded by think tanks, it is an NGO, its trying to create green entrepreneurs, its leaders collaborate with police chiefs, it abondons its members, it intentionally misleads people. What you are missing is that all of the above is possible because XR was created to push individual consumption narratives as a solution and to suck in the more radical people for surveillance.

youtube for those that want it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAUrzee9jfc

>Extinction Rebellion's third demand ("Government must create and be led by the decisions of a Citizens’ Assembly on climate and ecological justice") has been summarised by its leadership as a demand to "go beyond politics".[176] This demand has been criticised by socialists, including individuals who have participated in the movement's action. Writing for The Independent in April 2019, Natasha Josette, an anti-racist activist and member of Labour for a Green New Deal, critiqued Extinction Rebellion both for marginalising ethnic minorities, and for not recognising "that the climate crisis is the result of neoliberal capitalism, and a global system of extraction, dispossession and oppression".[177] Also writing for The Independent, Amardeep Dhillon argued that XR's narrow focus on net zero carbon emissions meant that it ignored extractivism and the threat to the environment posed by companies in the extractive sector using greenwashing to defend and advance their economic interests, suggesting that XR's position "threatens to give carte blanche to governments and corporations who are happy to shift the burden of climate destruction onto poor and indigenous communities of colour in the global South".[178]


>In October 2019, Erica Eisen, an XR participant, wrote an article for Current Affairs in which she linked the movement's "beyond politics" slogan not only to the demand for a citizens' assembly but also to a refusal to take stances on issues beyond the environment, in order to gain as broad a base of support as possible, highlighting the movement's ban on organising community groups based on political identity. She argued that "…our current economic system is (not) compatible with continued life on this planet. It is unrealistic and irresponsible to pretend that a proposed climate solution which keeps capitalism intact is any kind of solution at all", and that failing to articulate an anti-capitalist position undermined the movement's credibility by "lend(ing) tacit support" to large companies responsible for environmentally destructive behaviour. She also suggested that failing to embrace leftist positions would give space for far right groups to piggyback and exploit environmentalist rhetoric, citing the examples of the Christchurch mosque shootings and 2019 El Paso shooting, both of whose perpetrators left manifestos which mentioned environmental concerns.[179] Writing for i-D in December 2019, Nathalie Olah drew parallels between XR and earlier decentralised protest movements such as the events of May 68 in France and the Occupy movement, suggesting that a shared lack of clarity in concrete demands had stunted the political impact of the latter two movements and arguing that climate change and class politics were "inextricable" as "a small minority are responsible for a high proportion of emissions, and because the poorest stand to face the worst repercussions".[
>>

 No.222420

Ecologism is unsalvageable and Malthusian by design. So far as past environmentalism was at all a positive force, it was an outgrowth of people demanding good government and advocating for the health of the people.

Also there is no climate apocalypse and there never will be. I will keep shouting vociferously about that until this nonsense stops, because it's advanced by the worst eugenicist elements of society.
>>

 No.222422

XR is advocating for an openly eugenist government to replace the capitalist governments that exist. It's the vanguard of eugenism as a revolutionary force - a revolution against the broad masses and for the fanatics.
In practice, what XR wants is unfettered oligarchic control, "for the planet", and suppression of competing capitalists who might not be with the program.
>>

 No.222449

>>221136
just join a communist party wtf is this cringe?
>>

 No.222454

>Are there green or ecologist etc. movements existent in your country which you think have the right idea already?
yes there are a couple of towns that armed themselves and kicked out the goverment and porky
>>

 No.222458

>>221136
Problem with ecology movements is they are divorced from the basic needs of everyday people who are too busy and stressed to worry about systemic issues like ecology.
I'm not particularly fond of the guy but Andrew Yang once said that UBI would help the environment because it would give people more luxury and time to think about these sorts of things and maybe act collectively to help solve them. Very utopian and not quite correct obviously but there's something to it, most Burgers do actually care about the environment but just don't have the means to make it a prime concern.
So these movements will not become anything significant even if they are well-meaning (and extinction rebellion is quite possibly just a glowie OP).
>>

 No.222489

File: 1620176016921-0.jpg (117.13 KB, 907x1360, 61-EQrMxAjL.jpg)

File: 1620176016921-1.jpg (495.68 KB, 1500x2050, 81C8gHivyaL.jpg)

File: 1620176016921-2.jpg (258.16 KB, 1524x2339, 81oCAyaII6L.jpg)

File: 1620176016921-3.mp4 (1.94 MB, 1280x720, Adam Tooze, 2019 - Crashed….mp4)

File: 1620176016921-4.jpg (1.16 MB, 1654x2173, 2000_ad_prog_2197.PRG2197D….jpg)

>>221136
XR was green #Occupy from its start. A big problem with radical environmentalism in general is that what materialist analysis it's managed to offer has been pushed aside in favor of more treehugging idealist nonsense at best, and malthusian bullshit at worst. People like John Bellamy Foster and Kohei Saito have desperately been trying to excavate Marx's thoughts on ecology through notions of the "metabolic rift"—a noble attempt to recover some kind of lost "ecological materialism" that runs contrary to the promethean impulse that is so often ascribed to him. In a recent book Andreas Malm calls for implementing war communism against climate change, which sounds eerily similar to the "Green Five Year Plan" Adam Tooze was talking about back in 2019. I think if XR is in any way salvageable then it needs to do a 180° and give new meaning to the term, "Red-Green Alliance" by formulating an "Eco-Leninist" organizational strategy.
>>

 No.222574

>>222458
>Problem with ecology movements is they are divorced from the basic needs of everyday people who are too busy and stressed to worry about systemic issues like ecology.

Not as a rule, I'd even argue that radical ecology movements more often than not work because they have support from the local population who don't really care that much about ecology but share an interest or objective. So when you have idealist students and hippies fucking around an airport project or a mining construction site they usually can make their shit work because some farmers or indigenous people will help them fight the power.
>>

 No.223547

>>221136
I'm actually very involved in my local chapter and I think there's a lot of valuable things to learn from XR which most people on this forum should consider. I'll answer your questions first and then I'll give my own thoughts.

>Is Extinction Rebellion in any way salvagable?

Depends on which chapter you're referring to. XR doesn't have any central leadership or coordination, it's really just a bunch of cells which talk to each other and voluntarily cooperate, if that's what they decide to do anyway. So there's some huge variance between different cells that exist, some are quite stagnant and run by boomer greenies, and should be ignored imo. Others though, like the one I'm involved in, is quite active and was started by some long term environmental activists and anarchists, this means we have a much stronger anti-capitalist trend, even if that's not explicit in our media and messaging. Because of this, our long term strategy is, imo, quite good and involves getting local groups set up in every other neighborhood in our state, which we're actually making decent progress with The tldr on that question is it really depends on which chapter you're involved in.

>If not, how should the green movements carry themselves forward? I observe that Extinction Rebellion got a lot of attention and membership, which is good

This is where leftists really need to pull their heads out of their asses and learn from XR, rather than larping while they wait for 'the revolution' to happen. Yes, XR has far more active members than any major leftist org that I've ever encountered, and I expect that to be the case in a lot of places. Why is this? Imo this is due to a couple things:
1) XR has managed to create a brand which is new and positions itself as anti-establishment.People are looking for an anti-establishment organization, however, the ones that had already existed were communist and that aesthetic and lingo has been inoculated against; decades and decades of red scare and the failures of past socialist experiments have made it very unlikely for a regular joe to see hope in a socialist org.
2) Impactful praxis based on 'scientific' research (I'll get to the 'research later'). Civil disobedience, even if people on here dislike it, is a huge factor in XR's success. It has done a couple things, firstly it has gotten a huge amount of media attention, giving a ton of outreach to XR enabling it to connect to new potential members, secondly it has given an outlet for frustrated and desperate folk to feel empowered (whether or not it is actually empowering is another discussion) resulting a higher number of committed and actively engaged members. You're not going to inspire many people with your org just by flyering, you actually have to get people's attention and inspire, XR is doing that.

>I do wonder if that can be replicated without playing into the downsides of the organization and especially its almost exclusively liberal tactics.

Okay let's consider the faults of XR:
1) BS theory of change based on research that doesn't consider that past movement which employed civil disobedience were not aiming to restructure the entire economy. What a new org should learn here is obviously that you need a better analysis of history which correctly understands what is required to change society.
2) The liberal nature; aiming for reform rather than revolution/dual-state power. If you were to start a new org, and like XR you get to the stage where local groups are happening, it needs to be a part of your mobilization strategy that you're getting key coordinators involved in the local groups that we're not going to save society by asking the government for help. Ultimately it's up to us to build the alternative, peacefully for as long as possible, but we have to understand that eventually we wont have the privilege of a non-fascist government.

I've attached an essay that I've nearly finished which is a critique of XR and then proposes a solution. It's aimed at people who may be on board with XR, so yall might find it basic, but I'd appreciate feedback if you're willing to give it.

>>221572
Absolutely based

>>221157
>>221166
>>221173
>>221227
>>222349
>XR is a cointelpro op
This is fucking dumb jesus christ. Just because people are engaging in praxis which is based on a less than ideal analysis of reality, that does not mean they are the enemy. NO REVOLUTION IN HISTORY HAS BEEN COMPOSED OF 100% COMMUNISTS, COMMUNISTS ARE MEANT TO HELP PUSH THE LIBERALS FORWARD, NOT GO MAKE A CIRCLE JERK.
>>

 No.223565

File: 1620214252671.pdf (164.86 KB, 212x300, The crisis is here - unref….pdf)

>>223547
oops forgot the essay. If anyone want the references which I have on file but haven't correctly put in, lemme know
>>

 No.224874

>>223547
>Just because people are engaging in praxis which is based on a less than ideal analysis of reality, that does not mean they are the enemy.
It's not just that we're reeling at the sight of theater kids dancing in the streets protesting climate change; rather like w/ #Occupy, the movement they represent was meme'd into existence and continues to be propped up by NGOs. You don't have to be a communist to be suspicious of that.
>>223565
Thanks I'll give it a read.
>>

 No.224976

>>223547
>This is fucking dumb jesus christ. Just because people are engaging in praxis which is based on a less than ideal analysis of reality, that does not mean they are the enemy. NO REVOLUTION IN HISTORY HAS BEEN COMPOSED OF 100% COMMUNISTS, COMMUNISTS ARE MEANT TO HELP PUSH THE LIBERALS FORWARD, NOT GO MAKE A CIRCLE JERK.
sounds like apoligism and misdirection. of course the people on the ground aren't all cops, but their leaders are so fuck off with this strawman.

Their "praxis" isn't 'less than ideal', it is actively detrimental and harmful. The absolute best case good faith scenario is that they are so stupid they accidentally destroy the lives of the people most likely to commit to the revolution. Stop trying to greenwash anti-communism.

>>223565
>I do not reject the tactic of mass arrests outright, I think that they are incredibly useful in getting people’s attention, thus educating people about the climate crisis, and potentially drawing in new rebels.
>>

 No.224978

File: 1620253925271.png (103.36 KB, 1432x466, a5jh5rj.png)

>>

 No.224991

>>223565
1) Replace industrial agriculture with a sustainable alternative, such as agroforestry
and/or suburban food forests.
2) Stop the deforestation of our native forests and implement an unprecedented
reforesting program.
3) Build an extensive electric freight, tram, and light rail system across Australia.
4) Swiftly transition to having all our energy come from renewable sources.
5) Put an end to mining on this planet.
6) Utilise the various alternatives to current industry.
7) Transform society so that it is not dependent on international trade.

>I think it unreasonable to expect that we can force the restructuring our entire economy when

we could not put an end to sexism and racism through the same tactic of nonviolent civil
disobedience.

really? how is this "different"?
>>

 No.225003

Have any of you seen Michael Moore's Planet of the Humans?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk11vI-7czE

Was it really deboonked or did they just give it the snopes treatment?
>>

 No.225556

>>223547
what's with cells of XR offering themselves up to police?
>>

 No.225983

>>224874
>the movement they represent was meme'd into existence and continues to be propped up by NGOs.
Be suspicious of XR where this is relevant then, but dismissing XR outright is silly. Where I am, we have no connection to XR in the UK and as far as I'm aware that's the case for everywhere outside of the UK. Hell even the chapters in a lot of England are more or less independent outside of the mass actions put on in London.

>but their leaders are so fuck off with this strawman.

Again, if we're talking about the chapter in the UK/London this is fair, but isn't fair when talking about XR in general.

>Their "praxis" isn't 'less than ideal', it is actively detrimental and harmful. The absolute best case good faith scenario is that they are so stupid they accidentally destroy the lives of the people most likely to commit to the revolution. Stop trying to greenwash anti-communism.

No one is going to become a revolutionary without some practice, XR is providing some level of defiance for a lot of people. I've seen people go from left leaning liberals to outspoken anticapitalists in a matter of months because of XR and its actions. We're going to go through various levels of defiance against the system, and XR is filling one of the earlier phases. When society gets even worse, we can expect people to get more radical. I'm seeing that in my chapter and I expect its the same in the UK. Hell even Roger Hallam, one of the co founders, was booted out of XR because he didn't think what XR was doing was enough. That's not to say Roger is where we need to be, but it's indicative that this stuff happens in phases, and communists should be helping to accelerate that. Additionally, the proportion of people in XR who get arrested, at least where I am, is quite low, and that's something I've read in training manuals from the UK.

>>224978
>you're not using the buzzwords I like
It's almost like I've written this to be accessible for members in XR. What benefit does using the word 'communism' or 'capital' have when I'm going to talk about specific systems and not just use a term with a huge window of interpretation.

>>224991
>really? how is this "different"?
You're going to have to clarify

>>225556
It's due to a bizarre analysis of history which concludes that peaceful civil disobedience is more likely to end in success (which is statistically true but ignores important context). Thus it's argued that if we just peacefully disobey the state, we'll cause enough of an inconvenience that the state will afford us some concessions. There's obviously a heap of issues with this, like it being reformist, it ignoring that the state would never peacefully allow, or even be capable, of such a change in society, it ignores that a lot of past movements had the threat of getting more radical if things didn't go their way, etc.
>>

 No.226614

File: 1620311247443.png (147.91 KB, 322x527, 3b321f32944465eef05e877fa4….png)

>>

 No.226700

I support green politics but I can't shake the feeling that something better could be done. In particular, XR from what I understand of it is quite shallow in its analysis. Notably one of its slogans is "beyond politics" which is meant to suggest that ecological collapse is – or ought to be– a nonpartisan issue. In theory it should, but this is the real world we are talking about and so nothing is.

Notably absent most mainstream green movements is a critique of the mode of production and its aims which is hellbent on constructing the earth in purely extractive terms and which treats the environment as an externality onto which it can offload its pollutive byproducts. I'll leave it to you to figure out what economic system I refer to.

Thus according to these movements, environmental collapse is a phenomenon that is just playing out in a void, disconnected from the particular structural conditions of the political economy which make this the logical consequence of its activity. So it tries to treat the symptoms rather than the causes, which will achieve nothing.

I also have disagreements with praxis. It is pointless to attack the problem anywhere besides the root. Any green politics which tries to approach it at the level of individual choice—refuse to use plastic bags!, take a bike rather than a car to work!, recyle!–is ineffective. Furthermore this fits into the consumerist ideology and makes it susceptible to greenwashing. Buy our sustainably harvested coffee and do your part to save the earth! No. The individual is an endpoint in a large process of production and supply chaining. They are an effect, not a cause. And it is improbable to expect a sufficient number of individuals to make the right decisions to affect system change. The changes must come downstream, from the sources of production.

Of course woke capitalism that claims to "go green" is also off the table. No capitalist enterprise will ever jeopardize its bottom line to substantially overhaul its production to be better for the environment. They will make superficial changes perhaps because it is good publicity, but that's it. Secondly, this is not a choice. It cannot be left to an arbitrary decision that disconnected components of the system may or may not decide out out of synchronization with the whole.

Nothing short of a massive overhaul of the mode of production would provide a satisfactory solution to the environment problem. And if climate/environmental instability is going to get as bad as some projections predict, this WILL happen regardless, just as how political economies the world over temporarily displayed a level of coordination that capitalism rarely does in easy times.

If I dug into it I'd find other criticisms, but these are the big ones.
>>

 No.226722

Also there are other "uh-oh" politically incorrect facts about mass extinction which are hard to deal with. For example Linkola's observation that much of it is caused by the fact that there are just too many people and overpopulation of one species–as is almost universally true in all population biology–leads to collapse in population of others and in particular habitat loss. A green politics that depicts humans as a parasitic exponentially multiplying two legged oversized bacterium that is overrunning the planet and devours everything in its path won't take off with the normies.
>>

 No.226740

>>226700
> just as how political economies the world over temporarily displayed a level of coordination that capitalism rarely does in easy times.
During the pandemic or times of crisis I mean
>>

 No.226750

>>226722
>linkola was right
opinion discarded
>>

 No.226908

>>226750
Prove him wrong about the population dynamics.
>>

 No.227287

File: 1620326243260.jpg (49.06 KB, 850x400, quote-political-power-grow….jpg)

>>225983
>What benefit does using the word 'communism' or 'capital' have when I'm going to talk about specific systems and not just use a term with a huge window of interpretation.

Did you offer solutions that address production, public ownership, and direction of production and I missed it? Did you use other words to describe a working solution?
becuase:
>I think it unreasonable to expect that we can force the restructuring our entire economy when
sounds like you are against communism. Communism isn't a "buzzword" its the only solution to climate change. Replacing agriculture, mining, deforestation, and automobiles, isn't going to do anything other than starve billions of people to death while making westerners feel better about themselves.

How is your proposition meaningfully and materially different than XR's already proposed solutions to encourage entrepreneurs to be less mean to the planet? How does it do anything other than attempt to shame the genocidal dictators that control our supply chains? Making psychotic murders feel bad or guilty is not praxis. You have to physically force them to change.
>>

 No.227313

>>227287
the naive part of your analysis is the assumption that capital is of one mind, that only the organized working class can force a change in circumstances.
you may not like the form it takes, but there is at least a plausible case that a section of the capitalist class realizes that actually they stand to gain more selling shares in windfarms that will last the next 150 years than they do selling oil that will last the next 50, the expected lifespan of all life on this planet if it's actually used.

and of course, the oil barons will fight this tooth and nail - but their presently strong position cannot be taken for granted. the western manufacturers often very much disliked the transition to monetarist economic policy, which drove them to bankruptcy, but they had missed the boat - finance capital had the whip hand by that point. it is not a given that the same will not happen again, with green capitalists displacing the present gang. (and although "green capitalism" has a cuddly green new deal sort of image, you can imagine "green capitalism" however you want for what follows - if it means declining living standards for the working class and so on, so much the clearer for my analysis.)

far too many people suffer a logic that runs as follows:
if capitalism will kill us all in 50 years
and green capitalism will kill us in 150 years.
then our only hope is socialism now.

which is far too naive a view. there is a reasonable segment of the bourgeoisie who are not particularly interested in dying in 50 years. the vast majority, perhaps all of us (on this board) will be dead in the next hundred and fifty. quite evidentially, green capitalism would buy all of us time to think. (i say this not to say that it is therefore good, but that it is therefore probable. the bourgeoisie are in charge, they get to pick unless we overthrow them. i'm putting better odds on them kicking the can down the road before they're overthrown, then perhaps being overthrown after business as usual would've killed us.)
>>

 No.227343

>>222349
>XR's position "threatens to give carte blanche to governments and corporations who are happy to shift the burden of climate destruction onto poor and indigenous communities of colour in the global South".

>a demand to "go beyond politics".[176] This demand has been criticised by socialists, including individuals who have participated in the movement's action. Writing for The Independent in April 2019, Natasha Josette, an anti-racist activist and member of Labour for a Green New Deal, critiqued Extinction Rebellion both for marginalising ethnic minorities, and for not recognising "that the climate crisis is the result of neoliberal capitalism, and a global system of extraction, dispossession and oppression".


>"…our current economic system is (not) compatible with continued life on this planet. It is unrealistic and irresponsible to pretend that a proposed climate solution which keeps capitalism intact is any kind of solution at all", and that failing to articulate an anti-capitalist position undermined the movement's credibility by "lend(ing) tacit support" to large companies responsible for environmentally destructive behaviour.


>>226700
>Notably absent most mainstream green movements is a critique of the mode of production and its aims which is hellbent on constructing the earth in purely extractive terms and which treats the environment as an externality onto which it can offload its pollutive byproducts. I'll leave it to you to figure out what economic system I refer to.


>It is pointless to attack the problem anywhere besides the root. Any green politics which tries to approach it at the level of individual choice—refuse to use plastic bags!, take a bike rather than a car to work!, recyle!–is ineffective. Furthermore this fits into the consumerist ideology and makes it susceptible to greenwashing. Buy our sustainably harvested coffee and do your part to save the earth! No. The individual is an endpoint in a large process of production and supply chaining. They are an effect, not a cause.


>Nothing short of a massive overhaul of the mode of production would provide a satisfactory solution to the environment problem.


>>225983
I'm pretty sure were all in agreement here. The problem is capitalism. Are you some kind of social democrat reformist?
>>

 No.227350

File: 1620327764142.jpg (35.08 KB, 600x315, 9XdjEK7.jpg)

>>227313
>class collaboration
>communism is naive
>>

 No.227355

>>227313
So you are defeatist pro capitalism and suicidal and you think other people should join you?
>>

 No.227362

File: 1620327996175-0.png (130.83 KB, 1200x1696, 1200px-Red_Rose_(Socialism….png)

File: 1620327996175-1.png (5.01 KB, 153x330, images (1).png)

File: 1620327996175-2.png (181.21 KB, 552x599, 552px-National_Emblem_of_t….png)

>>227313
Class collaborationists eat shit
>>

 No.227395

File: 1620328543983.png (499.48 KB, 973x556, socdem-class-collaboration.png)

>>

 No.227401

>>227313
>. there is a reasonable segment of the bourgeoisie who are not particularly interested in dying in 50 years
Yep, but a lot of that bourgeois class thinks they will have a bunker in New Zealand at their most sane or even more perplexingly, think they will be spared the effects of their accelerationist accumulation when they get to upload their consciousness to a computer or some other dumb bullshit.
So it's a wash really, for every well-meaning "green" bourgeois there's a slew of deranged ones to replace them.
>>

 No.227425

File: 1620329501515-0.mp4 (2.77 MB, 320x240, Circus - Theme Song (240p_….mp4)

File: 1620329501515-1.png (122.25 KB, 980x689, this rose.png)

>>227350
>>227362
>>227395
>perhaps if i ignore the argument and focus on the flag then people won't notice i have nothing to say.
>>

 No.227428

>>227425
What is there to say anon your class collaborationist I'm not that's it.
>>

 No.227429

File: 1620329645016.jpg (35.01 KB, 320x314, b62a0f2e3772e7ccccf4fa79c7….jpg)

>>

 No.227434

>>227355
on the contrary i am none of those things. in the language of economics wankers: i did not make a normative analysis (what should be done), i made a positive analysis (what will happen)

socialism stands alone as a desirable end. we could invent some kind of magical source of infinite, portable energy tomorrow in a form that actively sucks pollution from the atmosphere and leaves everything smelling minty-fresh and the case for socialism would be weakened not 1%. people should organize (and organize effectively - deliver the goods!) for socialism regardless.

what i argued against was purely the mindset that says: capitalism cannot fix this in the long term, so the only short-term solution is socialism. that is a recipe for disillusionment and the oppose of delivering the goods - if the capitalists can pull the rug out from the socialists by fixing a problem in the short term, it does socialists absolutely no good to appeal to the long term lack of sustainability of the enterprise. to the ordinary person, all they see is a conversation that goes as follows:
"you can't fix this, socialism now!"
"nevermind, i fixed it"
"no you didn't, in 200 years–!"

which is a nonsense that can be entirely avoided when the case for socialism is made without such transparent opportunism.
>>

 No.227440

>>227429
if you post proof that you have donated $10 (£7.20) to
https://thecommunists.org/donate/
i will leave this thread and not return, and that is a promise.

>>227401
this is definitely a huge risk, but i would say that it is always possible for one aspect of the bourgeois class to suppress another aspect of it. presently we're in the "burning down Blenheim as a bitcoin billionaire" timeline, but it's not impossible that the state intervene to penalize polluters. not out of some kind of cuddly social democratic goodwill, but because it's in the interest of an ascendant bourgeois faction. for all the detractors in this thread, the most ironic thing is that the model of capitalism i'm using here is the one from the prolekult documentary - destroy the overaccumulated capital of the oil industry with state power, then concentrate new capital in green industry!
>>

 No.227454

File: 1620330730476.jpg (363.92 KB, 695x916, socdems-are-useful-idiots-….jpg)

>>227434
>>227440
Tool says what? 👂
>>

 No.227467

File: 1620331113321-0.png (573.03 KB, 2068x660, 1.png)

File: 1620331113321-1.png (342.15 KB, 1760x610, 2.png)

>>227454
As soon as a coin in the coffer rings / the rose from thread #221136 springs
https://thecommunists.org/donate/
>>

 No.227474

File: 1620331484781.png (452.57 KB, 877x553, when-they-say-they-want-a-….png)

>>227467
Mmh, right, right
>>

 No.227476

File: 1620331699581.jpg (51.44 KB, 356x534, 829cef11f261583cdb179c3aaa….jpg)

>claims to want a revolution
>won't even give a pittance to the foremost marxist leninist party in Britain today
>>

 No.227487

File: 1620332179015.jpg (94.65 KB, 443x639, nordic-social-fascism-ww2.jpg)

>>227476
Not a biscuit devourer
>>

 No.227522

>>227434
>"nevermind, i fixed it"

but you haven't fixed anything. Climate change isn't a sustainability of enterprises problem, its a contradiction inherent to capitalism. I wan't to converse in good faith here but it comes across as you being extremely arrogant and intentionally disingenuous. I can't tell if you are trying to do a parody, because you immediately brought up class collaboration. I was actually asking the greenblack flag if he was socdem and then you posted with a socdem flag right after. Everyone else keeps saying "we need democratic control of production" and your response is "we need cleaner/sustainable production" while seemingly intentionally not talking about ownership or how you will actually enforce it other than vague platitudes. What you are proposing isn't even social democratic reforms, its liberalism. If you are really about all this you would have a solution to the fact that 50 more years of capitalism means the end of civilization, instead of pretending like slightly nicer capitalism won't simply delay the inevitable by a few inconsequential months.

> i did not make a normative analysis (what should be done), i made a positive analysis (what will happen)

uh, yeah, thats part of the problem
>>

 No.227552

>>227522
>because you immediately brought up class collaboration.
i did not. on the contrary i specifically implied the bourgeoisie would further crush the working class, not making concessions but imposing pain, as part of an analysis which explicitly draws a comparison to the last major shift in the functioning of capitalism where both workers and a section of the bourgeoisie were screwed by the system.
it is, as i said in >>227440 not even a particularly innovative analysis. in terms of the functioning of capitalism it is essentially the exact same analysis made by >>221467 - workers get fucked, old oil-economy capital is destroyed by the state, new green capital accumulates.
>your response is "we need cleaner/sustainable production"
"need" is normative. what i am saying is: capitalists are not going to kill themselves to make your revolution easier. if your plan for revolution depends on capitalists not being able to postpone the death of the planet by more than the lifespan of the younger capitalists alive today, your revolution is doomed from the start.
>uh, yeah, thats part of the problem
it's only a problem because it trips up nancy stories about how people will mobilize and how revolution will come about. instead of forming a plan to build working class organisations that work regardless of whether the planet is going to end in 50 years, 150 years, or 50,000 years, people would much rather try and hawk socialism like a cheap panacea.

the problem with capitalism is not that it is destroying the planet, the problem with capitalism is that it destroys all that is human. in your naivete you imagine that "green" capitalism must mean "nicer" capitalism, even in the face of all of the undesirable trends of recent years. what i say is this: it is not impossible to imagine a green capitalism that is sustainable in the medium term and which represents a fate worse than death. it is optimistic to imagine that we're headed either for the heavens of socialism or the comfortable inaction of extinction, without dwelling on the possibility of a longer term nightmare.
>>

 No.227566

>>221184
you imageboard glowies are fucking shit at your job
>>

 No.227599

>>227552
>>227566
fr
>>227552

>the problem with capitalism is not that it is destroying the planet, the problem with capitalism is that it destroys all that is human. in your naivete you imagine that "green" capitalism must mean "nicer" capitalism

I'm calling it 'nice' to be reductive and dismissive because your ideas are retarded and the distinction is meaningless. Its still capitalism. How can you say capitalism destroys all that is human and in the next sentence say
>it is not impossible to imagine a green capitalism that is sustainable
Capitalism is not sustainable. "Green" capitalism is not sustainable. Sustainable capitalism is not possible, its a contradiction. Your proposition is that we support capitalism while building ambiguous "working class" organizations. You are a liberal that supports capitalism and are trying to obfuscate that by typing a lot of superficial nothing. Leftypol supports communism, and building communist organizations.
>>

 No.227601

File: 1620337508935.png (456.8 KB, 875x490, same pic.png)

>>221184
>labor and dems bad
>extinction rebellion good
>>

 No.227611

>The truth is that modern environmentalism’s key demands are mutually exclusive with keeping up the kind of human progress we have seen in recent decades. The globe cannot afford to immediately and completely ditch fossil fuels. More precisely, its poorest inhabitants cannot afford to. It is they who will most sharply feel the consequences of the often gas-filled pipeline of economic growth being turned off. Middle-class activists in rich Western countries, in contrast, will cope.

>Extinction Rebellion and their ilk want us to turn back the clock. They seek not a new world but a kind of new feudal order. They want mankind to retire from innovation and advancement and shrink in number. In the name of freedom, progress and the advancement of the prospects of the world’s poorest, leftists should oppose them.


>Marx wrote that, ‘The labouring classes have conquered nature’. The next step for him was not to let nature take back control, as eco-activists of today desire: it was for the workers to ‘conquer man’


https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/09/10/extinction-rebellion-radical-reactionaries/
>>

 No.227617

File: 1620338264477.mp4 (1.62 MB, 854x480, glowinthewoods.mp4)

<Roger Hallam, the co-founder of XR, explains this strategy: “[…] When people break the law, there is a strong likelihood that this will create a public debate and that we will talk about social protests. Activists will be respected because people will see how committed they are to environmental preservation since they are prepared to be arrested.”
>>

 No.227619

File: 1620338371045.mp4 (1.62 MB, 854x480, glowie.mp4)

<According to Ronan Harrington, the coordinator of XR’s UK General Election Strategy Group, remaining neutral allows, “the possibility of all parties outcompeting each other to meet us where we are.” This is why XR invited Stanley Johnson, former Conservative Member of the European Parliament — and father of Prime Minister Boris Johnson! — to address a London demonstration during the October Rebellion. Here Johnson took the opportunity to declare, without any sense of irony, that Margaret Thatcher was the founder of the British environmental movement! Harrington said, “This is the first truly shared global crisis […] It can’t have a left-wing solution.”
>>

 No.227625

File: 1620338511129.mp4 (3.72 MB, 1280x718, 0eaf8f763862b7087ca20a9968….mp4)

<In fact, even though XR pretends to be “apolitical”, the group’s attitude towards the state is certainly a political one: they refuse to call into question the caste of politicians in power, and their guard dogs in the police. XR affirms, “We take a no blaming and shaming approach to the police […] Our vision for Extinction Rebellion puts love at the heart of change. In this way some people in Extinction Rebellion may choose to express gratitude and love towards police officers.” During a rally in memory of Adama Traoré, who was killed by the French police in 2016 during an arrest, XR’s activists unfurled a banner which read “United against all violence”— equating racist systemic state violence with the isolated violence of oppressed groups lashing out against the police!
>>

 No.227627

>XR says that their acts of civil disobedience aim to raise awareness among the population. But while it is true that there is an organized reactionary campaign to deny climate change, the majority of the population is already aware.. Greta Thunberg’s “climate strikes” have mobilized millions of people across the world, including 500,000 in Montréal on Sept. 27, making it the biggest set of mass rallies in the world since the protests against the Iraq War in 2003. The real challenge is not to raise awareness, but to direct it; to mobilize the workers on a class basis with a clear program. Roger Hallam argues that, “mass civil disobedience is the most effective way to bring about change at the political level.” In a sense, this is true. Mass action of the working class, like strikes, can raise the workers’ consciousness and give them confidence in the struggle against the bosses. On the other hand, actions based on a handful of activists blocking a bridge in the middle of rush hour (as in Montreal) or public transportation,(like in London) run the risk of alienating exactly those people who need to be convinced to join the battle. All they do is feed the idea that the environmental movement is led by a small number of out-of-touch hippies who don’t care about ordinary people.
>>

 No.227629

>>227627
>To be won over, the workers need to see how the fight for the planet directly affects them. A socialist program allows us to link the needs of workers with the reduction of carbon emissions. By expropriating the incredible riches of the parasites in power, we could: invest massively in the development of free high-quality public transportation, create a massive program of public housing based on sustainable energy, develop renewable energy sources at low cost to consumers, nationalize polluting industries and transition to green technology while providing free professional training to the workers in these industries, and more.

>It is not the direct actions of a minority that will ensure the success of the environmental movement, but the active participation of the working class. The workers must take control of the entire economy, which is the source of environmental destruction, and organize it democratically and ecologically to meet the needs of everyone, rather than for the profits of the capitalists. For a rebellion to be worthy of its name, it must aim at overthrowing the capitalist system.


-
https://www.marxist.ca/article/extinction-rebellion-rebellion-against-whom
>>

 No.227648

File: 1620339566814.jpg (250.65 KB, 1908x1146, 4EFBBFB500000578-0-image-a….jpg)

>>221318
>Oh, I've never claimed to know shit about XR. I pretty much don't. It's just this rabid shitting on them with no backing up whatsoever has me a wee bit jostled, in facts my nerves would thank you if you could perhaps provide one single link to a good article investigating their connections to the glowies.
>>

 No.227664


https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/10/extinction-rebellion-has-a-politics-problem
best-of-highlights

>I do not think it is possible to find an apolitical solution to a political problem. More to the point, I do not believe that our current economic system is compatible with continued life on this planet. It is unrealistic and irresponsible to pretend that a proposed climate solution which keeps capitalism intact is any kind of solution at all. Put another way: There is no true green politics that is not a left politics.


>Rather than allowing the group to remain gracefully above the fray of contemporary political clashes, XR’s unwillingness to openly take an anti-capitalist stance erodes the credibility of its position because such silence lends tacit support to the carbon-belching powers that be. At a certain point, the apolitical becomes indistinguishable from the reactionary. Such a failure on the part of XR to articulate a systemic critique of capitalism when their environmental commitments seemed to beg for it was at the root of my discomfort with the group’s adoption of the moniker “rebels”


>What’s more, whether its leaders realize it or not, there is a great deal about Extinction Rebellion as it exists now that is already explicitly political in one sense or another. XR demonstrators as a general rule do not have an antagonistic relationship with the police, and arrests are often accompanied by music from those who remain behind. But isn’t the ability to face arrest without fear, to watch police officers approaching without trepidation, the product of political realities? It’s for precisely these reasons that XR has been criticized as a largely white movement (which it is): The risks associated with the type of police interactions that are the group’s stock-in-trade are far higher for minorities.


>Another reason why this supposedly apolitical position is deeply worrying is because of the increasing prominence of ecofascism, whose adherents embrace both aspects of the green movement and militant xenophobia. Since Extinction Rebellion’s founding, the perpetrators of two major mass shootings—one at a WalMart in El Paso, the other at a mosque in Christchurch—have left behind manifestos that root their xenophobia in ecological concerns. Whether they frame nature conservation in explicitly nationalistic terms, or latch onto overpopulation as an excuse for curbing nonwhite populations, or argue that climate change needs to be halted because of the waves of migration from the global south that will inevitably result, ecofascists are a growing presence within white nationalist and neo-Nazi groups in the United States and elsewhere.


>There simply is no such thing as “beyond politics.” XR itself does not currently behave in a manner congruent with its stated “beyond politics,” and a climate movement that does not advocate radical economic and political change cannot possibly hope to grapple with the magnitude of the crisis that is now bearing down upon us. But the fact that such a major force in climate discourse today can stay mum about the relationship between capitalism and climate destruction smacks of denialism of another kind.
>>

 No.227683

>>227599
imagine a perpetual motion machine that kicks you in the face forever. such a machine is sustainable, your face on the other hand may not be.
by force of habit i have said "imagine" again to denote a hypothetical - we can both note that such a machine is a ludicrous contraption. there is no need for a machine to do what my legs can do twice as well - nevertheless i rust you can imagine such a machine. a metallic contraption with a boot on it, moving to-and-fro mechanically. a fictional machine that nevertheless was constructed to make a wider point.

my proposition is simple: the left must deliver the goods. you like the idea that capitalism will destroy the world in 50 years because it makes it easier to handwave why people will rise up and overthrow it. you hate the idea that capitalism will destroy the world in 150 years because you will go to your grave knowing that i was right about their capacity of can-kicking outflanking a left who's chief trade is in self delusion.
>>

 No.227691

>>227683
so are you some kind of climate change denier too or what?
>>

 No.227714

(i will develop slightly further, purely for the benefit of lurkers)
when i say the left should deliver the goods, i refer to two interrelated ideas:
1. the left should focus all efforts at organizing people in ways that deliver concrete gains now (trade and tenant unions being direct examples) because this will show workers, directly, what can be achieved collectively and start rebuilding a baseline of class consciousness from which more concerted action can be taken. specifically excluded from this is electoral politics which is expensive, has a low chance of success, is intertwined with all the problems of party structures, and where successful usually makes it difficult to disentangle cause and effect. (life expectancy increases. is the government delivering the goods, or sitting on the beach taking credit for the tides?)
2. left analysis, promises, etc should strive for accuracy and reliability in all but the most extreme circumstances. nobody with any sanity is going to listen to the org that cried wolf! it feels good to say that CHAZ is the beginning of the end for the American empire, and it makes you look like a clown when a decade hence that empire is as strong as ever.

>>227691
it is difficult for me to comprehend how you can be presented with the words "capitalism will destroy the world [implicitly, by climate change] in 150 years" and conclude the result is climate change denial.

yes, i am a climate change denier, i am also an alcoholic, a 14 foot werewolf, and the bishop of rome.
>>

 No.227744

https://web.archive.org/web/20191023231002/https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/extinction-rebellion-climate-crisis-bhp-mining-coal-colombia-a9167601.html

>Extinction Rebellion is facing a crunch point. If it is serious about addressing the root causes of environmental crises, it must either concede that some (indigenous, poor, black) lives are disposable – or else adopt an explicitly anti-capitalist stance. Only when it does the latter will the struggle begin in earnest.


>In the meantime, the climate justice movement is being used for greenwashing, and indigenous people are facing serious repercussions.


>Take the example of mining company BHP Billiton. This month it announced it had a new purpose: to “bring people and resources together to build a better world.” The brief mentioned BHP’s “strong record” on responsible business practice, the “billions of dollars” spent on social investment, its status as the only company in its sector with an “A” rating for climate disclosures. BHP also emphasised “respecting indigenous peoples” as a renewed priority.


>Alvaro Ipuana, an indigenous leader from La Guajira, Colombia, tells a different story. Ipuana lives in the shadow of Cerrejón, the largest open cast coal mine in Latin America, co-owned by BHP. Its expansion over the last 20 years has forcibly displaced the Afro-descendant Tabaco people. According to campaigners and academics, it has also decimated the capacity for subsistence agriculture for its remaining indigenous Wayuu communities and polluted the rivers that once provided drinking water.


>The region has been drought-stricken for years, and a 2017 Human Rights Watch report described the Wayuu as being in the throes of a “humanitarian crisis”. The locals lay the blame squarely at the feet of the multinationals.


>Cerrejón claims it has invested $19.6m to improve water access for affected Wayuu communities, and blames regional government for the continued plight of the Tabaco people displaced by its mine.


>But, as Ipuana explains, “The resources that have been assigned to counter the impacts caused by the mining were not definitive solutions to the problem. Their concept of development isn’t functional for indigenous communities.”


>This explanation cuts to the core of an emerging tension in the rejuvenated climate justice movement. While Extinction Rebellion’s focus on net zero carbon emissions is understandable, it ignores extractivism – the large-scale exploitation of natural resources for export – which often makes up the core of “green infrastructure” projects. This has fatal consequences.


>Cerrejón is just one example of BHP’s “social investment” MO. The company is currently fighting one of the biggest legal claims ever filed in a British court over the worst environmental disaster in Brazil’s history. When a tailings dam burst at Samarco, whole villages were wiped out by the waste sludge from the iron ore plant. Rejecting all charges leveled at the company for accountability, co-owner BHP instead set up a foundation to dispense compensation at its own discretion.


>Now BHP wants to wear the clothes of the climate activists. Its chair Ken MacKenzie even claimed at last week’s AGM that “mining is the locomotive of the future on climate change”. Minerals like lithium, cobalt and copper are key for many of the alternatives to fossil fuel-based infrastructure. But large-scale “greening” projects that rely heavily on unsustainable mining for finite minerals under indigenous land necessarily entail exploitation – of nature and of people.


>As Extinction Rebellion protests drew headlines, Ipuana joined activists from Chile and Brazil in protest at that AGM in Westminster. The Latin-American representatives accuse the multinational of “greenwashing” – plastering over its exploitation of people and resources with buzzwords and empty gestures.


>The briefing released of the meeting shows that companies like BHP recognise the need to placate investor concerns around climate breakdown, and so are trying to rebrand themselves as ethical companies committed to a transition towards green industry. It doesn’t seem to matter that black and brown communities have been fighting this battle for generations with their bodies on the line. The investor is the ultimate customer and, increasingly, today’s investors want to believe their money isn’t funding their grandchildren’s death warrant.


>Across Europe, Extinction Rebellion has succeeded against the odds in making climate breakdown a public priority. Its broad-church approach of remaining avowedly “apolitical” (i.e. not anti-capitalist) made sense initially, bringing together a wide coalition from across the political spectrum. As the national conversation begins to move towards specific policy and infrastructure objectives, however, what I see as XR’s reluctance to tackle extractivism threatens to give carte blanche to governments and corporations who are happy to shift the burden of climate destruction onto poor and indigenous communities of colour in the global South.
>>

 No.227855

https://theconversation.com/us-military-is-a-bigger-polluter-than-as-many-as-140-countries-shrinking-this-war-machine-is-a-must-119269

<US military is a bigger polluter than as many as 140 countries – shrinking this war machine is a must


>The US military’s carbon bootprint is enormous. Like corporate supply chains, it relies upon an extensive global network of container ships, trucks and cargo planes to supply its operations with everything from bombs to humanitarian aid and hydrocarbon fuels. Our new study calculated the contribution of this vast infrastructure to climate change.


>Greenhouse gas emission accounting usually focuses on how much energy and fuel civilians use. But recent work, including our own, shows that the US military is one of the largest polluters in history, consuming more liquid fuels and emitting more climate-changing gases than most medium-sized countries. If the US military were a country, its fuel usage alone would make it the 47th largest emitter of greenhouse gases in the world, sitting between Peru and Portugal.


>In 2017, the US military bought about 269,230 barrels of oil a day and emitted more than 25,000 kilotonnes of carbon dioxide by burning those fuels. The US Air Force purchased US$4.9 billion worth of fuel, and the navy US$2.8 billion, followed by the army at US$947m and the Marines at US$36m.


>The American military’s climate policy remains contradictory. There have been attempts to “green” aspects of its operations by increasing renewable electricity generation on bases, but it remains the single largest institutional consumer of hydrocarbons in the world. It has also locked itself into hydrocarbon-based weapons systems for years to come, by depending on existing aircraft and warships for open-ended operations.


>Climate change has become a hot-button topic on the campaign trail for the 2020 presidential election. Leading Democratic candidates, such as Senator Elizabeth Warren, and members of Congress like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez are calling for major climate initiatives like the Green New Deal. For any of that to be effective, the US military’s carbon bootprint must be addressed in domestic policy and international climate treaties.


>Our study shows that action on climate change demands shuttering vast sections of the military machine. There are few activities on Earth as environmentally catastrophic as waging war. Significant reductions to the Pentagon’s budget and shrinking its capacity to wage war would cause a huge drop in demand from the biggest consumer of liquid fuels in the world.


>It does no good tinkering around the edges of the war machine’s environmental impact. The money spent procuring and distributing fuel across the US empire could instead be spent as a peace dividend, helping to fund a Green New Deal in whatever form it might take. There are no shortage of policy priorities that could use a funding bump. Any of these options would be better than fuelling one of the largest military forces in history.
>>

 No.227865

>>227855
Hey folx! Wow I had no idea the military was so dirty. Haha. Thanks so much for the information. We should have a brainstorm session on what we can do to solve this important issue! Does anyone have any ideas? No politics though, please! We don't want to alienate conservative voters, veterans, or oil rig workers!
>>

 No.228136

>>227287
>Did you offer solutions that address production, public ownership, and direction of production and I missed it? Did you use other words to describe a working solution?
In the next chapter that I've almost finished I specifically address agriculture. I've finished the critique of industrial agriculture and the description of the alternative technology and am now finishing up the section on how it should be managed, which will address public ownership and management. I'll post that when I've finished it.

<I think it unreasonable to expect that we can force the restructuring our entire economy when

I say this in reference to using civil disobedience to force change. I'm a communist and think that revolution is likely inevitable.

>Communism isn't a "buzzword" its the only solution to climate change.

Okay but what does communism actually entail? We both know what it entails, but normies reading this aren't so I have to be more specific.

>Replacing agriculture, mining, deforestation, and automobiles, isn't going to do anything other than starve billions of people to death while making westerners feel better about themselves.

Actually the alternatives to these wont starve people as they're just as productive, however they don't work well with capitalism because they tend towards decentralization rather than centralization. Additionally, something like industrial agriculture is inherently unsustainable, no matter if its organized by the state or not. We need political and economical alternatives, not just a restructuring of management.

>How is your proposition meaningfully and materially different than XR's already proposed solutions to encourage entrepreneurs to be less mean to the planet?

Because I'm not appealing to entrepreneurs to save the planet but to get local groups to help promote sustainable, democratic alternatives. Long term goal is dual power but I avoid those buzz terms in this essay.

> You have to physically force them to change.

Yeah I know, but until people are at a stage where that's even on the table, I'm going to try and promote the building of post-capitalist technologies/systems now.

>>227343
> Are you some kind of social democrat reformist?
No, I guess you could call me a communalist or communizer, or green anarchist. Those are the ideologies that I connect with the most.
>>

 No.229346

>>221231
who's "they"? it was like 2 dudes and half of XR hates them
>>

 No.229551

File: 1620406799108-0.jpg (55.26 KB, 483x619, not XR.jpg)

File: 1620406799108-1.jpg (3.39 MB, 2090x2717, not XR either.jpg)

File: 1620406799108-2.jpg (147.51 KB, 962x641, but the sign is cooler tha….jpg)

File: 1620406799108-3.png (4.01 MB, 2560x1440, mm-mmh.png)

>>221173
>Xr glows in the fucking dark in a way that makes Fridays for Future look like the fucking Bolsheviks
Maybe, maybe, maybe, just maybe things are as simple as they seem to be.

From a superficial view, XR are those who are just looking for excuses to protest. Those who can't protest against Trinity College in an intelligent way, but just "had" to ruin an old lawn. That all all the other bullshit they are doing is just letting other do the mental legwork for them. It's like they watched all the episodes of PitchMen and then decided to disregard all the lessons of that show.

Then there's Fridays For Future and their informal de facto leader. Maybe they are mostly school kids that don't want their protests to be exciting (and to be honest, there's too many FFF:ers in Africa that has too exciting protests for everyone's good). Maybe they want to get their message out in such a simple way as possible? So simple that you can't change nor remove anything? Maybe they want to be creative with the signs without having to go the detour via theory or being "creative" with street theater that either desperately needs or won't be helped by interpretation.

So just maybe XR and FFF attracted different crowds. I consider XR to be a great asset, because it acts like a sponge and attracts the hopless cases. All things different, this speech gives perspective:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu4-RRhs9aM

>>221266
<racial epithets the han-chinese wouldn't disapprove of

>>221271
>>221278
Reminds me of Stallman supporting some dictator just because he was too poor for anything but Linux.

>>221370
Imagine be turned away by the police and then get a rash on your hand! XD

>>221572
<roadblock with saamis
Enjoy it until "native fatigue" sets in. And In B4 the Girjas case is a major success: It created a precedent that may vreak havoc 10-20 years down the line. Not really my problem, so I don't care.

>>227429
<all these tendencies
<has 100 bucks put together
Now, this is comedy!

>>227617
>>227619
>>227625
>>227627
>>227629
<XR's theory
Really nice! Someone read a lot, lol!

But to provoke the police to arrest you in order to get sympathies assumes that the police will sooner or later change sides and that people's sympathies will increase. What they forget is that the police can do any of these or a combo of rotating the police, bring out the sadistic roughnecks, refuse to give you a fight, give you the option of either behaving yourself and make fool of yourselves. And the commuter that got kicked by a protester, how many blockades of the mass transit trains are needed in order to win over the hoi polloi?
>>

 No.229823

>>229551
>[YouTube] William Pierce Speech (unembed)
>do not tolerate losers
>we want winners
hmmm I wonder if Trump listens to him

>we are not interested in uniting the movement or competing


>According to Ronan Harrington, the coordinator of XR’s UK General Election Strategy Group, remaining neutral allows, “the possibility of all parties outcompeting each other to meet us where we are.”
>>

 No.229945

>>229823
>hmmm I wonder if Trump listens to him
Who cares. I'm just saying that Pierce's speech is interesting whenever someone wants to just have that big, happy family.

And if you see how XR behaves they will either alienate too many people. Or they will become something tame.

You can't accuse Thunberg nor FFF for "pointing with their whole hands". But compared to XR, they are Billy Mays, all of them! There may be something unclear with what they are saying or something. But at least they aren't stopping me from getting to my job nor ruining old lawns nor demands that I bring out the big decoder ring.
>>

 No.232117

I'm still not convinced Extinction Rebellion isn't a psyop funded by Big Oil to convince ordinary people that being a climate activist is wack
>>

 No.232274

>>232117
I am pretty sure I read this somewhere but there are so many articles about them that every result is astroturfed. You can't google "XR funded by oil" without getting results of "XR is against oil". Their biggest donater is heir to an oil baron and thinks they are doing reparations by donating less than a million dollars of their billions. It takes "funded" as related to who funds oil and gives you irrelevant articles for 20 pages no matter how many words or phrases you quote for exact match.

I think I read that they have also done some shady shit where they protested oil in favor of natural gas that was pipelined by the same company they were pretending biofuel is green. Thats why I brought up the Michael Moore documentary >>225003 even if he is wrong about a couple things most of the critique against him is worse. He is 1000% right about biofuel, lithium batteries, windmills, and solar panels and his critiques are pro capitalism and don't want you to know that renewables are extractive, imperialist, planned obsolescence and some even have larger carbon footprints because their short lifecycle + cost of transport and installation. Oil is very pro "renewables" and are trying to monopolize the supply chain to profit off the transition.


https://expressdigest.com/getty-oil-heiress-donates-500000-to-fund-backing-protesters-extinction-rebellion/

> Forbes lists the Gettys as the 56th richest family in America, with a total net worth of $5.4 billion.
>>

 No.232282

File: 1620508869794.jpg (25.61 KB, 306x399, 18176318-7437397-image-m-8….jpg)

>>232274

>Getty images


oh shit. didn't quite put that together lol
>>

 No.232294

>>232282
>Jean Paul Getty (/ˈɡɛti/; December 15, 1892 – June 6, 1976), known widely as J. Paul Getty, was an American-born British petrol-industrialist,[2] and the patriarch of the Getty family. He founded the Getty Oil Company, and in 1957, Fortune magazine named him the richest living American,[3] while the 1966 Guinness Book of Records named him as the world's richest private citizen, worth an estimated $1.2 billion (approx. $7.4 billion in 2019).

>Despite his vast wealth, Getty was famously frugal, notably negotiating his grandson's kidnapping ransom in 1973.


>John Paul Getty Jr. was awarded an honorary knighthood for services to causes ranging from cricket, to art and to the Conservative Party. His honorary knighthood would eventually become substantive upon the required acquisition of British citizenship. A long-time Anglophile,[1] he became a British citizen in 1997. In 1998 he changed his name by deed poll when he renounced the first name Eugene and wished to be known as Sir Paul Getty, KBE


>In Rome on 10 July 1973, 'Ndrangheta kidnappers abducted Getty's 16-year-old son, John Paul Getty III, and demanded a $17 million (equivalent to $98 million in 2019[14]) payment for his safe return.

<However, the family suspected a ploy by the rebellious teenager to extract money from his miserly grandfather.[15]
>Getty Jr. asked his father J. Paul Getty for the money, but was refused, arguing that his 13 other grandchildren could also become kidnap targets if he paid.[16]

>In November 1973, an envelope containing a lock of hair and a human ear arrived at a daily newspaper. The second demand had been delayed three weeks by an Italian postal strike.[15] The demand threatened that Paul would be further mutilated unless the victims paid $3.2 million. The demand stated "This is Paul's ear. If we don't get some money within 10 days, then the other ear will arrive. In other words, he will arrive in little bits."[15]


>When the kidnappers finally reduced their demands to $3 million, J. Paul Getty agreed to pay no more than $2.2 million (equivalent to $12.7 million in 2019[14]),

<the maximum that would be tax-deductible. He lent Getty Jr. the remaining $800,000 at four percent interest.

LMAO
>>

 No.232300

>>221572
>decolonize sapmi
Cringe idpol larp. Please keep burger intersectionalism out of the nordic countries. Thanks.
>>

 No.232856

XR UK is fucking trash but XR NYC was pretty decent. The interesting part of these horizontalist meme/hashtag-based groups like XR and BLM is that the glow is not evenly distributed. Literally anyone can build or participate in these groups globally and not every locality is equally interested in infiltrating domestic political movements, and especially not in directing them from the top down through assets. Considering all the news there has been concerning the outrageous behavior or British agents undercover in progressive social movements, the foundation of XR sounds like some classic British shit, more so than American three-letter agencies, who are way more concerned about BLM and the broader resurgence of the civil rights struggle anyway. What's more important is to identify the theoretical errors of the philosophy behind XR, as they perfect state the logical conclusion of the failure of the Socialist left in the United States. The convergence of Trotskyism and Anarchism in the form of Movementism is a total dead end, and has been since at least the WTO riots. Occupy Wall Street and XR NYC are both the zombified bastards of Movementism. We must shed light on the roots of XR's philosophy in the work of Gene Sharp and his collaboration with the US empire in their prosecution of the Cold War by building color revolutions in geopolitically weaker nations. We must reassert Marxism as the foundation of the scientific approach to socialism, with Lenin and Mao as the chief contributors to the development of the Marxist tradition.
>>

 No.232890

File: 1620536794211.gif (226.56 KB, 220x175, tenor (3).gif)

>>232856

>We must reassert Marxism as the foundation of the scientific approach to socialism, with Lenin and Mao as the chief contributors to the development of the Marxist tradition.
>>

 No.233075

>>232890
Thoughts on this? >>222489
>>

 No.233254

Is Extinction Rebellion in any way salvageable?
No

If not, how should the green movements carry themselves forward?
Integrate green issues with working class issues in every case , and make every solution to an environmental problem beneficial to average worker in an immediately noticeable way.

Thoughts on a green mass movement going forward?
It needs to step back for a moment, and look at what is preventing it's further growth that seems to of plateaued in the last couple of years. And make itself relevant to the realpolitik of the left as well as working to protect the environment.


I think this would be our last shot at preventing climate apocalypse, which I'm a bit blackpilled on the prospect of humanity actually achieving but worth trying nonetheless.
Are there green or ecologist etc. movements existent in your country which you think have the right idea already?

No.

If not, what would such a group look like?

Such a group would primarily be a socialist organization with green characteristics , but not at the expense of their socialist core platform , a green socialist group would work to create solutions to problems rather than just point them out and bawl and shriek . They would be solution oriented rather than pandering to outrage culture. And as I have already stated these solutions would materially benefit the working class in a noticeable way.
>>

 No.233258

>>227474
Every riot in the last couple of decades has been harder and harder to contain.

There will come a red October tipping point in time when they can no longer contain the people.
>>

 No.234492

>>233075
I agree. I think they are right about Marx's ideas about ecology and I think its critique can be applied to the USSR and current socialists participating in indigenous movements. The USSR had this promethian outlook and I think it contributed to their mistakes. I can't remember where or what I read about it before but it wasn't a noble savage or degrowth argument, it was a working with instead of against nature argument. It might have even been one of the books linked.
>>

 No.238606

>>227648
>XR is cointelpro!
<okay, wild claim but I'm willing to entertain that notion. what's your sources?
>REEEEEEEEEEEE you're cointelpro too!!!
never change leftypol
>>

 No.238621

>>238606
hey you got any sources for cointelpro on fred hampton that were public before 1969?
>>

 No.241626

>>238606
Use your fucking brain maybe? There is ample analysis in this thread alone to come to the proper conclusions. What sort of fucking sources do you want? Federal documentation? Or perhaps you think some journalist is capable of infiltrating XR glowie intelligence in any meaningful way that would allow them to put out an expose? I hope for your sake that you are a glowie, lest you actually be a fucking moron. Either way, get a grip retard.

Unique IPs: 45

[Return][Go to top] [Catalog] | [Home][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[ overboard / cytube] [ leftypol / b / hobby / tech / edu / games / anime / music ] [ meta ] [ GET / ref]