<full deck editionPrevious thread:
>>2208605—————————————————–
Evidence of the influence and origin of neo-Nazi groups in Ukraine
https://archive.ph/44B9Qhttps://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323637https://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323658https://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323663https://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323688https://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323729https://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323733https://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323731https://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323735https://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323740—————————————————–
ALWAYS APPROACH SOURCES CRITICALLY
Live maps and updates
DeepStateMap:
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📺 News/events:
https://tv.leftypol.org/r/HappeningsviaKlash📺 Hangout/chill:
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>Video Essays / Historical Background📺 • Ukraine: The Avoidable War - Boy Boy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL4eNy4FCs8📺 • Ukraine's Nazi Problem - The Marxist Project
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yZvWAwU5W4📺 • America, Russia, and Ukraine's Far Right - Gravel Institute
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0pyVJG7_6Q📺 • Crimea vs Taiwan: Who Gets Self-Determination? - BadEmpanada
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W_UH4fmyj0📺 • The Nature of Putin's Russia and Its Causes (3-Part Series) - 1Dime
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8d6Vzi7zYghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zODWTfMwFGwhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zuygh9Mzuo
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdeMVChrumySxV9N1w0Au-w📺 • The News Atlas:
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https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/new-syrsky-interview-sheds-light
>Interestingly enough, Le Monde just reported yesterday that Ukraine’s “largest ammunition production facility” was destroyed by Russian strikes: ‼️🇺🇦💥 Ukraine's main ammunition production facility destroyed in Shostka, Sumy region, — Le Monde
▪️The commander of the UAV company of the 104th brigade of the Ukrainian territorial defense Anton Serbin told the newspaper about this.
➖"In 2024, the Zvezda (gunpowder) and Impuls (detonators) plants were shelled several times, including on December 31, 2024, when 13 ballistic missiles were fired at them," the publication writes.
➖"Our main national ammunition production facility was destroyed," Serbin said.
>The most significant portion of the interview discusses mobilization numbers of both sides:
< But I want to say that the front is constantly increasing, the Kursk operation and the enemy's actions in the Kharkiv region, in Volchansk, gave us an increase in the front by 200 km.
< And the enemy has increased its grouping fivefold since the beginning of the aggression. Every month they increase by eight to nine thousand, for a year it turns out 120-130 thousand. On January 1, 2025, in Russia, the group of troops participating in the fighting in Ukraine numbered 603 thousand military personnel, today it is already 623 thousand.
>Above he states that Russia has increased the size of its entire military grouping in the SMO by fivefold since the beginning. Given that he says the Russian contingent is now at 623,000, we can assume his position as being that Russia started the conflict with a mere 125k men, not the 250k+ most often claimed.
>Interestingly, Syrsky later hints another confirmation of this when he states that Russia’s assault on Kiev consisted of a mere 9 battalions—this is hardly two brigades. If the main direction was so low in manpower, how did people ever come up with the infamous “250 BTGs” hoax?
>But getting back, read what he says again:
< Every month they increase by eight to nine thousand, for a year it turns out 120-130 thousand. On January 1, 2025, in Russia, the group of troops participating in the fighting in Ukraine numbered 603 thousand military personnel, today it is already 623 thousand.
>This is critical: he’s stating that every month, Russia gains a net positive of 8-9k men, and the total grouping grows by 120-130k per year. Just from January 1, 2025, the Russian grouping has increased by 20,000. Where are Western propagandists now, who loudly proclaimed Russia is losing so much men as to be bleeding out a net monthly negative?
>Hypothetically assuming the claims of both sides are true: Russia claims to recruit 30,000 men per month; Syrsky claims ~8,000-9,000 is the net gain. This implies 21-22k monthly losses, which is 700+ per day, or perhaps 300 KIA and 300 irrecoverably wounded. However, unlike Ukraine, Russia allows demobilization via contract expiry, and so a large part of those monthly losses are accounted for by soldiers leaving the SMO due to non-renewal of contract. It’s difficult to estimate the exact percentage this takes up, but let’s say it is hypothetically 50%, then it would reduce Russian KIA to 150 daily average, which is likely not far from reality. It should also be mentioned, Ukrainian officials had previously claimed Russia is lying and is only mobilizing a total of ~20k per month, which would make net losses even smaller.
>Syrsky also glumly admits that Russia’s total mobilization resource is depressingly vast:
< If we take the prepared mobilization resource of the enemy — those who have served in the military, military training-it is about 5 million people. And the mobilization resource as a whole is 20 million. Imagine their potential. And what can we do under these conditions? Of course, mobilization and transfer. >>2219267>unironically using "red-brown"lmao
>Crimea is also Ukrainianit's all so tiresome
https://www.intellinews.com/kremlin-sets-the-conditions-for-foreign-companies-to-return-to-russian-market-376064/
>A special government commission will assess all applications for market re-entry, with approval contingent on fulfilment of a range of industrial and political criteria. Without this authorisation, companies will not be permitted to resume operations in Russia. No one has applied to return so far, but a few firms have expressed an interest.
>Putin opened the door for the return of Western companies towards the end of February, but made it clear that they could only return on the Kremlin’s terms and in a way that was beneficial to the Russian economy.
>On the downside, any firm that took sides against Russia in the Ukraine conflict would be barred from operating.
>On the upside, the Kremlin is going to force companies to localise production of inputs – something that the Kremlin was trying to get companies to do for years, especially in the automotive sector – without much luck. The goal is to accelerate the modernisation of Russia and promote import substitution, something the Kremlin has not made much progress with.
>Specifically, the conditions, reported by Russian business daily RBC, include:
> Obtain approval from a special government commission (without which re-entry is not possible);< Guarantee localisation of production within Russia;> Commit to technology transfer and creation of research centres;< Establish performance indicators for investment in development (KPIs);> Comply with requirements for the level of robotisation in production;> Form joint ventures with:< Existing Russian shareholders of the former business, or> Systemically important Russian enterprises;< Prioritise inclusion of products in the Ministry of Industry and Trade’s list of 329 items for import substitution;> Allow Russian businesses to pre-assess risks and vote on the advisability of a foreign firm’s return;< Demonstrate previous compliance when exiting the Russian market:> Fulfilled financial obligations (e.g. paid salaries, no outstanding debts)< Did not support foreign agents, the Armed Forces of Ukraine or other hostile entities.
>Many companies left Russia, selling their businesses to their local management in widespread MBOs, and many of these deals included a buy-back option should relations improve. However, the Kremlin has indicated these options will not be respected.
>In the case of the Renault carmaker that was in a joint venture with Russian automotive titan AvtoVaz, the French firm sold its stake for a reported RUB2, but with an option to buy it back for the same price. However, a few days after Putin’s comments, AvtoVAZ president Maxim Sokolov said that Renault would have to pay $1.3bn if it wants its shares back, the amount of “extra” investment the Russian car company had to invest as a result of Renault’s departure.
>In other sectors, especially retail, requests by foreign companies to retake control of their franchises will simply be ignored. McDonald’s, for example, spent three decades building up its chain, which was taken over by Vkusna i Tochka (Tasty. Period), including its flagship outlet on Pushkin’s Square in central Moscow. Since then the new owner has continued to invest, rolling out new stores in Russia’s regions and reported that the chain had become more profitable than the original after the first year of operations.
>Most of the new owners have little incentive to sell them back to their original owners. During the exodus Russia saw one of the biggest transfers of wealth and property in its history, where entrepreneurs and managers picked up mature and profitable businesses with hundreds of thousands of dollars of turnover at very deep discounts. Franchises such as McDonald’s, if it returns at all, will be forced to start from scratch.
>Encouraging foreign direct investment (FDI) is a classic goal of any government, as it brings not only the transfer of technology, but also management skills. But the Kremlin has been frustrated by the reluctance of international companies to set up full production lines in Russia. In the automotive sector just under two thirds of car parts continue to be imported from the European Original Equipment Manufacturers’ (OEMs) Western European parts plants as a way to prevent the authorities usurping their industry. In other businesses, like the French DIY retailer Leroy Merlin, the international companies have been more proactive, making investments in light manufacturing production after Chinese wages, a major source of product cost, overtook Russian labour wages. One of the most active foreign investors was Swedish furniture retailer IKEA – it refused to leave Russia after the invasion of Ukraine – which set up a credit scheme to finance the construction of Russia-based factories to make their products. However, the bulk of Russian FDI is the reinvestment of profits earned by multinationals operating in the market – a quirk of Russian national accounting is this reinvestment is counted as FDI, which is not the case in most markets – and not true FDI, which remains small by most emerging markets’ standards.
>Now the Kremlin intends to force international firms that want to return to make these commitments by fiat rather than market forces.
>In addition to the localisation of production, a key requirement includes the establishment of research centres, and the setting of specific investment performance indicators. Authorities will specifically evaluate technological contributions, such as the level of automation: Russia currently operates just 19 robots per 10,000 employees, compared with the global average of 162 and will set KPIs relating to the number of robots used in a new factory.
>Foreign firms must also form joint ventures with Russian partners – either existing shareholders from their previous Russian operations or state-designated “systemically important” companies, but this will be done in terms of delivering as yet undefined “benefits” for the domestic economy.
>The Ministry of Industry and Trade will prioritise applications from companies making products on the list of 329 items crucial for import substitution, but their domestic partners will also have a say in the process.
>Applicants will also have to demonstrate their neutrality on sanctions and the Ukraine conflict. Moreover, they will need to prove they settled outstanding wages and cleared debts during their exit. >>2219429everyone posts tank man but nobody posts chinese soldiers being burnt to death by the peaceful protesters who dindu nuffin
that sort of shit didn't happen even in 1991
>>2219267>>2219291>The second, Knock Knock Whois Not There, LLC is our private registration provider, a company that will proxy for you when registering for a domain name so you can keep your personal information private.>REDACTED FOR PRIVACY>REDACTED FOR PRIVACY>REDACTED FOR PRIVACY>REDACTED FOR PRIVACYI'd congratulate on the OpSec, but platforming shitbirds like that just makes me suspicious.
Have glowies finally learned not to plaster NED and USAID all over their propaganda?
>>2219436oh it's not a video, it's several photographs that to be fair would be considered gore
/pol/ would probably consider it based anyway
>>2219430>thread in question, raid it if u want toThis looks like a lay-up for "ha ha, leftypol is raiding us" with screenshots, tbh.
What are your real intentions? :-/
>>2219531>*thing I like* is actually just like *other thing I like*We did nothing. Those retards do it to everything.
Libs 🤝 Neonazis
DPRK is Actually Existing Nazism
>>2219598Ask her if her bf had any funny tatoos/about her reaction to Crocus City Hall attack
Some girl are good, some are straight face the wall banderite material
>>2219614idk. just glad I haven't got killed.
>It is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but their social existence that determines their consciousness.I used to believe this before. now I'm not so sure.
Putin: I Know When the End of the World Will Come
<The President of Russia shared his views on the future of humanity. Russia’s state news agency TASS explored how President Vladimir Putin envisions humanity’s future. Putin’s thoughts were revealed on Saturday in honor of Cosmonauts’ Day, celebrated in Russia.
>Putin believes that future humans will live on Earth until the time comes to colonize other planets. According to TASS, Putin cherishes the idea that one day the flags of Russia and China will be planted side by side on the surface of Mars.
<Putin firmly believes in an artificial intelligence revolution, which he calls “the foundation for the next leap forward.”
>Every individual, state, society, and business must adopt new technology, understand the dynamics of change, and transition swiftly and decisively into a new era.
<According to Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov, Putin actively uses artificial intelligence himself.
>Putin’s choice is GigaChat, a Russian alternative to OpenAI’s ChatGPT, released a year ago by the Russian bank Sberbank.
<Of the threats facing the future, Putin sees climate change as the most dangerous and says that Russia's goal is to achieve carbon neutrality by 2060. According to Putin, carbon neutrality does not require giving up modern comforts such as air travel.
>According to Putin, humanity is inevitably facing the end of the world despite everything.
<I know when the end of the world will come: in 4.5 billion years. By then, the reactor of our sun will simply shut down. What is there to fear when it is inevitable?
>According to TASS, the President of Russia smiled broadly while speaking about the end of the world.https://tass.ru/obschestvo/23652131 >>2219700I just can't take AI seriously
at the moment and feel that I'm living in some Bizarro World with the way leaders slobber over it. I see all the hype, and then I go collect my hallucinated, non-existent references on everything from academic papers to songs.
>>2219598>>2219604Ukros act
exactly like zios lmao, it's uncanny. I've been saying it since day 1
>>2220023I haven't seen any Gonzaloids posting here. Our "anti-campists" all sound vaguely "Orthodox Marxist" or Anarchist*. The Gonzaloids are actually anti-imperialists, support active struggles, and don't talk themselves around to being pro-NATO.
* I don't believe 90% of these "anti-campists" are genuine ultras. It's just liberals and contrarians LARPing.
>>2220023I've never heard them go after the DPRK, but then again its probably because it's just not as relevant and I've never sought out their opinions on it.
>their pure blooded indian/peruvian/philiphine maoist movements (or cults) are actually anti imperialistI mean they are as well. I see no point in shitting on people waging actual revolutionary wars, especially when its against US puppet regimes like the Philippines. Overthrowing that government is a lot more important than having a good take on China.
>>2220034>Overthrowing that government is a lot more important than having a good take on China.Ask terminally online maoists that question btw, they will say about muh philiphines being aided by china and something instead of organize.
good point btw
>>2220028>Hurr durrDeng was in charge of the foreign policy of the PRC during the Angolan civil war, and, as I'm
sure you know, Mao was fucking dead and the rightist line had become dominant in the CPC for both of the other two foreign policy blunders you referenced. Buddy here literally doing the
China = Maoism like some Wikipedia engrossed "apolitical" turboliberal lmao. Audiobooks count, you know? Search "Socialism for all", even marxists.org has some audiobooks. Bare minimum please.
>>2220023>can someone explain why some MLM's (or gonzalo thought freaks) and ultras can be undistinguishable from neocons or NAFOids? Gonzalo was an eccentric weirdo who, through adverse influence of wrecker Lin Biao, who Gonzalo thought was a genuine Maoist when visiting China during the Cultural Revolution, took the Cult of Personality which Lin promoted (against Mao's wishes) of Mao to be a virtue and for Gonzalo to then codify HIS OWN THOUGHT into a higher theoretical stage BEFORE COMPLETING A REVOLUTION in Peru. He is critiqued by the rest of MLM, which usually is sometimes referred to as Mainline MLM (think CPI-Maoist, CPP and people who look to their experiences and writings rather than PCP-SL / Gonzalo) for relative distinction. Gonzalo Thought cultists (which is an apt description) can usually be noticed by their particularly idealistic and dogmatic phraseology, insistence of the UNIVERSALITY of protracted peoples war (even in imperial core), ultraleftism*, overt Trotskyite similarites, going on and on about Gonzalo in particular, and particularly ugly mallet and sickle flag.
* While Mainline MLM critically supports DPRK and Cuba and appreciate that they have been able to maintain a mainly planned economy post Soviet undoing, Gonzaloids want to destroy them for not being "principally Maoist". This is something again particular to specifically Gonzalo unhinged views which they deify, ironically, OVER MAOISM (se first image) (also Mao made statements against the PPW being applicable in imperialist countries).
>>2220029>I haven't seen any Gonzaloids posting here.They come by from time to time unfortunately. There has been a slight upswing in their activity online recently because they formed a new "international", called "International Communist League (ICL)".
>>2220035>this happen especifically on my discord serverTake every political tendency "represented" by some literal who virtual identity with a truckload of salt. To understand positions of tendencies better you have to actually analyze the dominant parties / movements / history they draw from.
All that being said, unlike Cuba, DPRK, – contemporaneous China (and especially up until 2016) should be put under higher scrutiny because of their burgeoning velocity into super-power status. That is because we are historical materialists who want to not repeat the same mistakes of the past which, hopefully, we learn from. That being the bourgeoisie's ability of reemerging within the party and having undone countless socialist countries thus far, most notably the USSR. They have reemerged within the CPC, but have not yet undone it. It's not as pretty of a situation as state media leads you to believe. Unemployment, labor exploitation, private property, commodity fetishism, all strata of bourgeoisie; national and foreign, patriarchal mores, Confucian persistence, bourgeois media, so on and so forth - all in China and defended with violence by the state today. People who don't even want to acknowledge the contradictions and display a mix of standpoint epistemology and bureaucrat-monopoly capitalist apologia is forgoing Marxism which is the use of the materialist dialectic and being side of the proletariat who every day struggle for a better, brighter future in China and the realization of socialism against these slew of self-serving, opportunist weasels who try to at every point postpone it or flee the country to the west.
Personally I think the Chinese people are strong enough to secure the reemergence of a left line within the CPC before 2050 due to their general consciousness, relative (to the USSR) party stability, deterioration of western imperialism and rapid development of regional powerbases across the global south. This is heterodox, even for Mainline MLM, though, I'm ready to admit, and is part of an influence of Cockshottism and personal analysis of China in relation to the world the last few years on my part. Remember that early in Xi's leadership he, on the side of Obama/Trump (mid 2010s) pushed for DPRK denuclearization. My view is that the objective circumstance of the world is forcing the rightist line around Xi slightly leftward in order to not crumble from the pressure that has escalated. While only to a slight degree, this is enough to create a leftward trajectory to develop and take over in the time approaching the centenary.
>>22206222A5 is a Cold War model. T-90M is ultra-modern. It was also built to ambush Soviet tanks and then retreat rapidly to the next firing position.
I do think the modularised "power pack" concept the Leopard 2 has is a very good piece of engineering. Engine/transmission failures are the major issue for tank readiness. A major issue with the T-64/80 is how cramped the engine bay is.
>>2220627There are more comparisons
https://uploadnow.io/en/share?utm_source=RMnlN44 No direct compare of T72 to Leopard, but it's still the same Russian advantage everywhere
>>2220631>it was built for ambushing stupid russkiesHoly cope. Why Russians have updated their "old" tanks, and Germans just kept around "Cold War era" junk as their main battle tank?
>>2220640>Holy cope.No, I'm stating that they have different design parameters which is dictated by the intended tactical use. The Leopards are meant to go faster and being larger and heavier was accepted because they were intended to ambush while retreating. Soviet tanks were designed to be smaller not only to reduce the chance of being hit but so they could cross damaged or lower capacity bridges while assaulting.
>Why Russians have updated their "old" tanks, and Germans just kept around "Cold War era" junk as their main battle tank?2A5 isn't the most modern Leo II. Their standard is the 2A7. Ukraine got the old junk. The Germans also didn't think they would get involved in a peer level conflict again.
>>2220649>I'm stating that they have different design parameters which is dictated by the intended tactical useSoviet design was a roflstomp attritional battle tank, that has low profile, angles, autoloader, better and bigger cannon, and also being easily replaced and repairable. It's a deathball unit you can find in RTS games with poor balance - and military reality has a Russian bias
Leopard was shit from the inception - it's the same Nazi era idea of being superior, when in reality at best it was 1 to 1 exchange rate with Soviets. And Soviets had a deathball. That's why Americans thought that it would take nukes to stop Russian advance into Europe, in case a war broke out. There's just no counter
>>2220671You aren't telling me anything I don't know. The point was the Leopard II and the T-72 series weren't designed for the same objective. It's as dumb as the NAFOids jerking off about the Bradley vs the BMP-3.
The objective of NATO conventional forces for most of the Cold War was just to put up enough of a barrier to deal with the Soviets after tactical nukes had destroyed major Soviet force concentrations and supply lines. NATO conventional forces were weak BECAUSE the primary war plan was nuclear.
>>2219429The only good yank is a dead one.
That includes minorities
>>2220023you should read losurdo's "western Marxism"
his thesis is during the 1970 there never was a merger of anticolonial socialist movements and western Marxism making the latter develop theories of 'totalitarianisms' to explain why besieged colonial countries didn't abolish the state quickly enough
>>2220853Since when is someone using this flag so based.
>>2220856More than anything, the former, but also a bit of the latter. (NB I haven't read it but I've watched several talks by the translator talking about it)
>>2220815USAID undermines and destroys countries.
China builds infrastructure and frees countries from neocolonialism.
>>2220941yeah haha REAL communists from the ukraine would instead get behind the anti-communists
from beyond the grave that is, because they're dead, the banderites killed them
>>2221056But Donestk is already under Russian/Seperatist control.
Unless you're deluded enough to imply the Ukrainian Government actually has any chance of counterattacking on such a rapid scale, despite the Russians constantly gaining ground day by day.
>>2221080That's just peak toryism. These were the people who (nearly) bombed Baku alongside the French instead of, you know, the fucking Third Reich because of their trade agreement with the Germans.
These were the people who put more effort into assisting the Finns in their war against the Soviets than persuading the French into advancing into Nazi territory and liberating Poland. This was the man who refused to open up the London Underground as a bomb shelter until the British Communist Party forced them to.
>>2221424Still gathering details because I woke up not long ago, but there was a strike in Sumy against a government building in which a military awards ceremony was being held. First time I can think of in which Cuck didn't give one shit about the presence of civilian government officials. There's also some rumor the Ukros are seething about that the Americans have told Russia to hurry the fuck up and stop dilly-dallying, the insinuation being that America has given up on the peace process and just wants to see a decisive resolution.
>>2221425It's a perplexing problem for sure.
>>2221462>Moscow fears US-China warMoscow built up US confidence to get away with provocations, and China didn't get on Moscow's case about it :-/ It's led to the situation where the US has run out of steam in Ukraine but thinks Xi will be as soft as Putin.
Hence why I'm glad Xi delivered body blows over this tariff shit vs. what Putin did by continuing to second energy to NATO countries that were sanctioning him and helping kill his men. It sent a message that Xi won't fuck around.
>>2221590 (me)
>second energysend*
>>2221611>rubioIf Putin weren't soft (i.e., if he Xi-maxxed), he'd refuse further negotiations with the US until Rubio & co. address Ukraine's breaking of the ceasefire agreement.
He could also insist on Bucha truth to show "good faith" from the US, but whatevs.
>>2220926Ukraine is going to be internationally divided through the same division that caused all leftists to fold into pro or anti-Maidan camps a decade ago. Not only are they not coming back, this now has implications for us in the West. We are also self-dividing over globalization rather than revolutionary ideas of capitalism and the state.
As for socialist support for Russia, since 2014 there is definitely sympathy for anti-Maidan. I recall at that time all who supported axis of resistance states recognized how Donbass/Crimea joined the ranks and Russia lagged behind. This is for very good reason, Donbass/Crimea (since it is a pure product of the crisis of globalization) acted as a catalyst. It didn't just reveal the undemocratic meaning of decommunization, but also that of the antagonism of democracy vs autocracy. It became the independence of the global rich from the world's states vs the collectivism of a semi-modern people in transition sensitive to instability of an anarchic global economy in a plunder/expansion phase. It's such an explosive contradiction that it forced comprador Russia out of slumber, with a similar flashpoint in Taiwan doing the same for China, and it originates in a post-Cold War order that Russia and China are not oppressor nations in but overcome by. The order's contradictions were not caused by the return of inter-imperialist rivalry, but stagnation of the international system that rose in the absence of such.
Anti-Maidan support evolved with Russia joining hands with BRICS while explicitly taking part in Ukraine's internal conflict with rebellious Russian areas. If one supported anti-Maidan on the basis they supported Venezuela, Iran, Syria, etc. you can make a pretty straightforward case that a post-Soviet Russia is progressive if tied to the reformed international system promoted by oppressed and exploited nations. Not as a restraining force, but the fact it signals Russian identity like other oppressed peoples is labeled a leftover of hidebound history holding back the modern rise of humanity. Thus, the westernization of Russia is over. Russians join the great toiling majority of the world under the West as a culture-producing historical people dragged along by the productive of the world (but in reality produces for the affluent lifestyle that affords a bubble of liberal values surrounded by oppression). This builds on the basic value of Putin's Bonapartism after disastrous liberalization, he's not just freezing 90s class conflict that undoes Russia he's also assisting with freezing global class conflict exploding in the 2010s.
All this signals Russia is in a situationally positive role as globalization turns antagonistic and working class people, who are increasingly non-Western, are divided to solve its crisis on the basis of nationality, religion, etc. In other words, like anti-imperialist states such as Venezuela and Iran, Russia and the SMO is a response to the reactionary division of the international working class to deal with a crisis of the progressive liberal core, the paradox of which is not understood as the true problem behind the 2022 war. The usual way of falsifying this, that this response divides the working class itself or forces the liberal democracies to act this way, is seen here too.
The Ukraine crisis is part of global capitalism's redivision of the semi-integrated world. It originates in contradictions in the international order that NATO's new mission, the Minsk process, etc. attempted to solve. There's basically nothing about the conflict it created that suggests it's between imperialist powers, instead it has some resemblance to how a phase of European infighting at the start of the 19th century segued into carving up the rest of the world. At the root of the problem are unified imperialist powers administering a global system, a semi-colony in crisis after 2008, and a post-Soviet Russia blamed for the crisis in a way that mutated via Ukraine's ideological contribution to the West. It was no longer about RF, but a Russian cultural sphere that must be broken down to resolve issues in European neoliberalism.
The way capitalism achieved an antagonism of a (global) class with a nationality doesn't suggest we live in an era of inter-imperialist conflict but world empires trying to handle semi-integrated regions in transition. Western policy in the former USSR and Middle East are related. The idea now popular in bourgeois democracy that we must be promoting national homogeneity and cleansing in Ukraine to achieve free markets, open societies, and human rights is a contradiction, which is why the link of color revolutionaries and Banderites is so damning. It works in parallel to the other idea that we must genocide Gaza to ensure the lesson of the Holocaust is learned by the world, especially its Muslims. The existence of these contradictions proves that the issue is capitalism failed to deliver on a democratic world in the absence of inter-imperialist war, so it now must undemocratically divide the world to preserve a bubble of liberal hegemony within it (as globalization undermines it).
>>2221029>>ᵣuZZialol
>>2221032its always been sloviansk/kramatorsk conurbation since the fall of mariopol. adeevka buckmoot saltydar pokeravsk all lead to the big highway train intersection there and then ukraine has no logistics for their whole front kherson sumy and kharkiv for free and no defenses until kiev
Don't you find it funny that all the communist "cope" about how Capitalists would be banning dissent and censor everything and everyone, including up to jail times, intervene into elections, etc etc, when people stop voting like porkies want them to, turned out not to be cope at all and instead an accurate prediction of how capitalism works?
>>2222083It's less a relative peace and more of a end of history in ideology. But then China reminded them that communism was never defeated in the first place
>>2222083The current period started with the Obama presidency. When the Democrats could no longer pretend to be in opposition to the Bush militant policies they had to start re-aligning the division to being external to the West instead of being between "conservative" and "progressive".
And this is why the reaction to Trump was so vitriolic. He was not only gauche but was talking about ending the conflicts the Democrats had set up (except for China).
>>2222076Well by then China will be
might be socialist so maybe it will all work out
>>2222083>Would you characterize 1991-2011 as a time of relative 'peace' in the imperialist camp? Yes but it's more complicated than that, I think you can argue the early signs of long term changes were there. Disagreements over post-9/11 wars, Bush alienating Europe via Iraq, Dems and Reps polarizing, etc. In the context of Ukraine, the unreliable 'old Europe' and loyal 'new Europe' that the US thought in terms of went into overdrive ('fuck the EU'). Bush admitted that in the early 2000s he already wanted to bring Ukraine in and keep Russia out of NATO despite the latter's interest in the West. He also ran over Merkel and other NATO Ukraine skeptics over 2008 Bucharest.
So the main nuance to be added here is that the imperialists actually got more politically united in the years after 2011, populists excluded, especially on this Ukraine issue. This is via the crisis of the EU and its spread across the Atlantic. But in terms of imperialism, that 20 year period was its supremacy and the heyday of globalization at this point.
Perhaps there wasn't total peace between the states, but liberal hegemony not only fully united them it was also still expanding to other parts of the world. That is a sign global capitalism was still in an expansion phase that reconciled these powers. It's when this hegemony stagnates, which is ultimately rooted in middle class decline, that we see problems.
>I'd wager that after the intervention in Libya the nature of imperialism changed and liboids went mask off. And I agree that this is not an interimperialist conflict, but simply what remains of colonial policy towards Russia and China (generally the once underdeveloped third world). Do you think that the world colonial system collapsed in Ukraine, or will it definitely collapse once the war with China erupts? I can't make an informed take about the results of this warLibya was a turning point and that's how I remember it at the time. It was a segue and recovery from yet an evolution of previous wars. You're also right to point it out as when the Democrats began to change. Not only were they neoliberal now, but also increasingly hawkish. This was the period liberals were becoming more identified with the demographic winners of globalization (see pic). The role of liberals in the US and EU for our purposes is to show that world imperialism is becoming more antagonistic with stagnation and the ruling class increasingly believes new and truly global divisions that were rising and dwarfing the GWOT are how democracy internationally rebirths itself. That is, the way capitalism divides nations unequally is the world's battle lines for democracy - but not in the way you'd probably assume…actually the rich states represent a struggle against power.
On that point, I don't think there's going to be any collapse in world imperialism. I've only ever talked of a collapse of globalization. Imperialism won't even reformulate to include non-Western powers as anti-campists argue (although it's funny to see how quickly they'll move goalposts just to avoid supporting Russia, China, or Iran). It'll just get worse with decline. The powers will be more fractured and despotic, including to each other, while the international system they run is increasingly generating of crises and wars that (seem to) shake them more and more in an existential way. That'll be the reason to double down on degeneration in the West as caused by others and therefore, if fought, actually a path to democratic or national rebirth. Kill Gazans to own the left-islamofascist alliance in western universities after wokeness went too far, kill Russians to protect the western liberal metropolitan archipelago from cleetus, or something
>>2222870Was looking to see whether anyone posted that already lmao. War of words starting again:
<he trots out the thing about Zelensky starting the war, which caused a fury last time he said it>he trots out Ukraine being unable to win >he suggests Zelensky is going around with a begging bowlMAYBE the timing is just a coincidence, but could he be getting nervous about China cutting rare-earth exports? Did he suddenly remember that he was supposed to have a deal with Ukraine by now but that Zelensky has been playing games with him?
Fun week ahead!
>>2223654why right wing pipo be like this
re education camp 15 years minimum
>>2223656>why right wing pipo be like thisWeren't loved enough as children, now they think love is for sissies, so all sex is rape but decent women accept it happening in exchange for financial security which coloured immigrants are unlikely to provide, thus there must be some anti-white plot from the gubbermint to brainwash or otherwise force women to accept rape from foreign people when inevitably some Belarusian girls and Pakistani men hook up.
Simple as.
>>2223617I'm not sure that Lukashenko isn't trolling about taking in 150k Pakistani workers. Even opposition sites are skeptical and note that he once claimed to want 100k Chinese workers in Belarus but it never actually happened.
But I am really glad that right wing twitter started screaming over this and calling Lukashenko a jew and stuff. Thank god Belarus is safe from rightoid immigrants for another 20 years. Leave the last soviet republic alone.
>>2224047It's a legit question, I haven't been on leftypol for a couple of years and came back because halfchan is down.
I don't get why self proclaimed leftists would support current day Russia on any issue.
>hyper capitalist>massive corruption>authoritarian>oppression of gays>conscripting from minority populationsIf you are economically or socially left it makes no sense to back Russia unless you are just so "west bad" you think anyone not aliged with the west is good by default.
>ziggerZiggers are pro-Russian, based on the Z invasion marking used in Russian propaganda.
>>2224049>>2224046*taps microphone* hello, is this thing on? *clears throat* *AHEEEEEEEEEEEEM*
fuck ukraine
>>2224050Turns out if you want to break American hegemony all you need to do is give Trump a second term.
You don't need to pretend Putin isn't just a worse Trump for the destitute Russian workers that never see a cent of their vast mineral wealth.
>>2224052Why? Same as the other guy?
Pic related, this is what territory gained by Russia looks like after 20 years.
>>2224057How about a second trump term AND supporting Putin? Better safe than sorry
Fuck amerikkka
>>2224049>>hyper capitalist>>massive corruption>>authoritarian>>oppression of gays>>conscripting from minority populationsin case this isnt bait:
What's the difference to ANY random EU or other westoid country, except that gays are a privileged minority here who are expected to prove to idiots how "socially progressive and free" the west supposedly is when in reality the entire west is already halfway or further into actual fascism and openly supports a Nazi regime who has banned and murdered communists, socialists and unionists? Go back to 4cancer, libshit.
>>2224049>authoritarianMeaningless word, synonymous to the actually meaningless word "dictatorship". Every actually functional goverment is by definition a dictatorship, the only question is "dictatorship of who?"
>hyper capitalist>massive corruptionBut the West made Russia that way during and after Perestoyka, and current war can be seen as Russian people's attempt to avenge themselves for that. (I do not support "revenge" as fundamentally reactionary motivation for anything, but you probably do, aren't you?)
>>2224060>What's the difference to ANY random EU or other westoid countryFor a start Russian ranks 119th for life expectancy, 39th for social mobility, 67th for quality of life ect.
We have a heap of problems and need to end neoliberalism, tax corporations, nationalize industries and rebuild that doesn't make a worse shithole better.
>>2224062>overthrow government in 2014>government hands out AKs to anyone that wants one in 2022Of course it would be much easier for them to overthrow the government now and I bring up this point because unlike the rest of the cucked world they actually did it in living memory and have a culture that will act when required.
>>2224064>But the West made Russia that way during and after PerestoykaYes but when Putin inherited it 25 years ago he didn't decide to fix it, he decided he needed a huge mansion.
>current war can be seen as Russian people's attempt to avenge themselves for thatKek, I would hoping for more geopolitical literacy here.
>Russian economy is dependant on gas exports to Europe>US wants to get EU off Russian gas to weakend their economy>tries to open Qatar / Turkey pipeline>Assad says no under pressure from Russia>Assad gets arms from Russia for saying no>US starts arming extremists to overthrow Assad>fails>Ukraine discovers a heap of gas>US starts investing in developing Ukie gas fields>Russia invades so they not only retain control over EU gas market but gain more gasThe funny thing is Russia was so tied down in Ukraine Assad fell because Russia couldn't spare any arms for him.
Nazi Ruzzia attacked Ukraine twice - in 2014 and 2022.
The first time, the eastern part of Ukraine was attacked by the PMC of former FSB agent Girkin Strelkov, financed by ruzzian oligarch Malofeev. Ruzzia annexed Crimea before a sham referendum in March 2014, after deploying unmarked troops ("little green men"). All this happened with the tacit consent of Western leaders.
The second time, a large-scale attack on the whole of Ukraine was carried out by the PMC of Wagner, financed by ruzzian oligarch Prigozhin. Ruzzian armed forces and Chechen forces operated alongside them.
It is a ruzzian lie that Ukraine bombed its own people 🤬 They were killed by nazi Ruzzia! People lived happily and prosperously in Donbas until ruZZian tanks came to occupy them.
Now they all live like beggars. This is what it means to serve the “ruski mir” like slaves.
Girkin-Strelkov, known ruZZian fascist, FSB officer, a former commander of pro-Moscow separatists in eastern Ukraine, confessed he started war in Ukraine in 2014. He is proud of the fact and confirms that if it were not for him, the peaceful protests of the citizens would have remained peaceful and it would have been just like in Odesa. When the deaths caused by RuZZians in Odesa did not lead to a conflict (as people knew that the fire was set by ruzzian orcs) and the annexation of southern Ukraine.
>>2224235>anti-fascist countrySo the state doesn't use it's power to help capitalists?
There isn't historical revisionism?
There isn't expansionist nationalism?
Political rivals aren't imprisoned or killed?
The only major factor of fascism that Putin's Russia lacks is overt racism but they are focusing recruitment efforts in primarily Muslim areas.
90 days ago Russia was arguably the most fascist country on earth but Trumps doing his best to claim that title now.
Ukraine has nazies, I'm not one of the retards that tries to deny that and when a country is invaded those that are all about "blood and soil" are going to be overrepresented in volunteer forces because unsurprisingly nationalists love soverienty.
As for banning political parties I disagree with it but every nation has done it in times of war and with the red scare the US did without any attacks on their land. Same goes for unions, I'm a member and of course support them but there are those that will use the extremital threat of an active invasion to maximize their wages them flee once they have the money to do so.
For me I'll side with the invaded the vast majority of the time be it Vietnam, Afghanistan or Ukraine, the only justified wars the west has waged since WW2 was the first Gulf war and Kosovo the first being a genocide and the second being attacking an attacker.
I wish we would get actively involved in Ukraine enforcing a no-fly-zone and drastically increasing aid because tolerating annexation today with have the same long term effect as the Munich Agreement.
>>2224319I started with the question "why support Russia" and still haven't gotten a good answer.
Calling it bait is pathetic cope from people that don't have a rational argument.
It's like people believed pic related and just supported anyone that was a military threat to the west and now they can't beat the poorest nation in Europe they are lost.
>>2224333we dont support russia winning as much as we support ukraine, nato and the west empire loosing, as it favors the end of the current hegemonic empire and rise of multipolarity, which should result in a global situation a lot more favorable to progressive and communists movements.
and given how often retards shit up the thread with disingenuous questions already debated to death, its totally normal to assume its a bait
and given you're now spouting the usual stupid shit of nafo fags, fuck off you moron
>>2224351>liberalhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_anti-LGBTQ_law>capitalistSo was Nazi Germany with the first thing Hitler did being the privatization of banking.
>Communists are suppressed at times but generally are allowed to operate openly and legallyIf anyone but Putin starts gaining popular support they are arrested or killed, he allows the commies that can't win to run.
>Indiscriminate state terror against the left is the most basic and elementary feature of fascismTrue, while he doesn't round up everyone on the left he will take out any political rival.
>>2224352>as it favors the end of the current hegemonic empire and rise of multipolarityHow so? Russia gets a little bigger, the west increases military spending and nothing fundamentally changes. Russia can't beat Ukraine when they are getting cold war scraps from the west how do you think they would go against all of Europe?
>a lot more favorable to progressive and communists movementsChina is doing that by using a mixed market economy to destroy neoliberalism in the global market.
>disingenuous questions already debated to deathI haven't been here for 2 year, came back because 4chins down. I haven't seen those debates and don't understand supporting nationalist expansionism as if it's good for the left.
>>2224359 >my beliefs are based on who I want to share a tent with rather than morals or philosophy>>2224361I live in the real world where militaries exist and people use them, sometimes it takes a military to stop a bad actor with a military which is 90% of what NATO does.
>>2224384As a pro-NATO peep and military autist I can give my point of view.
>Russia was going to buckle under the weight of sanctionsWhile some media push that narrative I expected Russia to handle they better than Iran and they have. Sanctions take years to decades to come into full effect and they are hurting Russia but won't win the war (unless someone that lost billions kills Putin).
>corruptionThat played a huge role in the early war and bases having sold off all their diesel to local farmers ultimately lead to the 20km long parked convoy.
>Russia will run out of soldiers/ammo/tanks/morale withinI honestly did expect more civil disobediance and public outcry by year 2 but knew they were sitting of decades of Soviet production.
>if Ukraine can be sustained with billions of dollars/pounds/eurosBillions is a rounding error in military spending.
>the best equipment NATO producesKek, so the sky is full of F-35s?
>secret deployments of NATO special forcesSpecial forces can't do anything to help the war that cruise missiles can't do.
>mobilising Ukrainian 18-25yosI want to see this avoided by giving them what they need to win today or preferably 2 years ago.
>a trade war with China and a hot war with IranThat's just Trump using the classic of major war to distract from terrible economic management.
>>2224407>muh russian speakersI hope english is your second language or the UK has the rights to your land.
>>2224375>anti-LGBTQ lawThat's not what liberal means. Liberalism emerged in the 18th century long before any kind of queer tolerance.
>So was Nazi Germany with the first thing Hitler did being the privatization of banking.Yes, but not all capitalist states are fascist, and Ukraine has a far more market oriented economy than Russia does.
>If anyone but Putin starts gaining popular support they are arrested or killedYes, this is the standard tactic of repression in liberal capitalist states. Allow opposition to exist and operate legally, but use targeted repression against them in calculated instances. However in fascism the approach is terroristic repression against the left, allowing it no breathing room or right to exist whatsoever. In Russia communists not only operate openly, but are the second largest political party. In Ukraine their party is banned.
>>2224419>That's not what liberal means>Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individualI get people here are going to focus on the "right to private property" part of it but personal freedom is a major component and one worth preserving.
>not all capitalist states are fascistNo shit.
>second largest political party>4.37% of the voteWow he sure loves political competition.
>>2224433So the origin nation of a language has a right to the land of anyone using that language?
How far does it have to evolve and change before it's considered a different language and they gain sovereignty? Does China get Japan because Japanese writting was Chinese once?
Does the UK get India back?
>>2224437utterly abstracting the argument so you can fight on an even ground of hypotheticals is malignantly debatebro
heres some applied context. what is your take on the political economy of maidan ukraine and was it sustainable? was burning the Odessa trade union house a legitimate action that would reconcile political stability? or did the new maidan government place themselves in a politically impossible positions of hating the people but demanding the land? Refusing all accommodations of constitutional reform, language autonomy and federalisation while being utterly insistent on '91 borders. A political coalition built in the west of Ukraine went to war with the east of the same nations (that legitimately won the majoritarian election that maidan overthrew) that Russia, revisionist periphery state that it is, took advantage of. Conditions Russia seized the initiative from but did not create.
How do you believe the internal social contract of ukraine could or should have been repaired? and by whom in goverment?
>>2224437if japan had a sizeable chinese-speaking community with their own identity and tried to dehumanize and erase them for many years, including by violent force, despite repeated attempts by China to resolve the debacle diplomatically then yes, it would be justified or at least understandable for China to invade
(well i also think China should invade and conquer Japan with no justification required, but that's beside the point)
>>2224462saboanons point is that russia is a textbook liberal capitalist state with the same institutional use of the mechanism of democracy as a legitimising ritual and pressure valve for discontent without any actual legislative power in the hands of the people. Your comparison reinforces this point.
Furthermore your prior point of personal freedoms is idealist, apply economic constraints to personal freedoms and it becomes a question of income to allow expression and as safety net to live independently of opposition. Intuitively under market forces legal protection of personal freedom is conditional on your financial merit in an unequal system. Otherwise your choices are constrained by those around you anyway
>>2224477>what is your take on the political economy of maidan ukraine and was it sustainableUkraine fucked up hard stealing the gas, I won't deny that and it was a direct result of rampant corruption.
>burning the Odessa trade union houseLet me put it to you this way, if a country annexed part of my country and there were protestors in the street saying we need them to annex all of us I'm not caring about the name of the building they retreat into.
>politically impossible positions of hating the people but demanding the landWhat was the level of support for joining Russia in Crimea? genuine question I would like a source on.
>constitutional reformI don't know this talking point.
>language autonomyRussian was never banned.
>federalisationSo the people didn't want to be part of Russia and wanted to be independent? Too bad, they are Russian now.
>insistent on '91 bordersI don't think it's unreasonable to look at an agreement signed 23 years ago and say it's still valid.
>that legitimately won the majoritarian electionTrump legitimately won his election, does that mean people that voted for him have no right to overthrow him for making major changes he never campaigned on?
>How do you believe the internal social contract of ukraine could or should have been repairedThey needed a massive crackdown on corruption to regain faith in government just as much of the west does now.
>by whom in govermentAnyone that can gain not only the popular vote but not do something so unpopular while in office they get overthrown.
>>2224484>well i also think China should invade and conquer Japan with no justification requiredOh you just love war so long as it's not neoliberals starting it, too bad for all those civilians.
>>2224527>so uhh you think it's justifiable to burn people alive for protesting for a cause you don't likeNo, I'm not in the habit of saying everything "my side" does is good and moral and I'm not saying I'm above immoral acts if someone just threw a molitov at me and says I need to welcome our new overloads.
Also Russia has very open immigration policies so it's not like those that want to be Russian can't just move there.
>>2224375>How so? the mass sanctions accelerated dedollarization massively giving a boost to brics, europe cutoff from russian gas is destroying its economy (especially germany), the cost of the war is also hard on europe states which have to explain they're doing austerity while giving billions to ukraine, it has strengthened russia-china bonds, revealed nato equipment to be overpriced shit that would be ground down like everything else in a peer war, and showed all the eurocrats as the lapdogs of the US empire they are, with no real sovereignty and not even able to defend their national interest when in contradiction with the US. Its the first time the nato empire got directly challenged by a strong power that didnt get destroyed, a sign of things to come and shattering of their appearance of strength.
>China is doing that yes and we support their work in this regard, the global development they're driving and alternatives to the west they're offering is also very important, but anyone who know history and the burgers will know the burgereich will use war as much as possible to try and save their empire, and so anyone killing their footsoldiers and destroying their equipment is doing good.
>came back because 4chins downcant wait for you to crawl back to your poltard nest
>supporting nationalist expansionism the framing of a true nato bot who cant even understand the west and ukraine worked hard to make this war happen. Putin didnt want those territories until the situation forced his hand, its exactly why there were minsks that the ukrops wouldnt respect.
>my beliefs are based on who I want to share a tent with well the fact we hate nazis with a passion and ukrainians are actual nazis doesnt help them get our sympathy thats for sure
>it takes a military to stop a bad actor with a military which is 90% of what NATO does100% of what nato does is being the bad actor with an overwhelming military you retarded polyp fucker
which is why we "support" russia (critical support actually, meaning on this issue only while recognizing they're shit overall). They're a progressive force by opposing and fighting the US empire.
>>2224519>Ukraine fucked up hard stealing the gaswe're talking about the attacks on worker rights, privatization and looting of public wealth you idiot.
>protestors in the street saying we need them to annex all of us revisionism, they were protesting against a fascist US backed coup, against attacks on workers rights, and against discrimination for russian speakers, not for being annexed by russia who really didnt want to annex anything more than crimea anyway. Why the fuck do you think they retreated in the trade union house you fuck, they were trade unionists and the actual left progressives
>What was the level of support for joining Russia in Crimeabig majority by all polls, including western ones
>Russian was never banned.you just couldnt get state jobs if you spoke it, aka discrimination (and they limited the learning of it too iirc).
>Trump legitimately won his election, does that mean people that voted for him have no right to overthrow him for making major changes he never campaigned onyou misunderstood the poster. Zelensky ran on peace and reverting maidan, then turned around and went full nato, betraying the electors of the east. Which is why these regions then pursuing independence instead of autonomy makes sense
>do something so unpopular while in office they get overthrown.CIA backing the coup has a lot more effect than being unpopular, or half of europe would have overthrown their leaders already
>>2224547Sigh, Pierre Sprey strikes again.
It's fucking expensive, too expensive, the taxpayer is being fleeced. That doesn't make it a bad plane and everything we actually know about it makes it look pretty fucking good. It hasn't seen combat at scale but has done SEAD work against S300s during Operation Inherent Resolve proving stealth can defeat the second newest Russian SAM in service.
>>2224552>dedollarizationTrump has done more in this area than Russia ever could.
>especially GermanyI wouldn't call -0.3% GDP "destroying".
>the cost of the war is also hard on europe statesThe cost is largely a product of media narrative and political posturing, if you pay for an IFV to be built in 1990, take delivery in 1992 then give it way in 2025 it doesn't actually "cost" anything.
>it has strengthened russia-china bondsLol, I'll believe that when Russia is given any Chinese aid. China is making sure they do nothing to risk sanctions while convincing Putin they are still friends but they won't even sell him arms let alone donate them.
>revealed nato equipment to be overpriced shit that would be ground down like everything else in a peer warOh you're one of those guys that thinks HATO gear is indestructible and then when a tank gets knocked out it proves it's usless. For context Russia has lost 3903 photographically confirmed tanks so far.
>and showed all the eurocrats as the lapdogs of the US empire they areOnce again Trump is fixing that.
>Its the first time the nato empire got directly challengedIs Ukraine in NATO?
>anyone killing their footsoldiers and destroying their equipment is doing goodI don't get this logic, someone worse than the US gaining military superiority over the US isn't good for anyone.
>poltard nestSadly true but I've been there 18 years and I'm not leaving just because /pol/ infected it.
>Putin didnt want those territories until the situation forced his handThe situation being the poorest nation in europe finding gas.
>100% of what nato does is being the bad actor with an overwhelming military you retarded polyp fuckerYet no one could look at the list of NATO interventions and point out why they are bad, for fucks sake nearly half are anti-piracy ops.
>>2224569Amazing.
>>2224570>privatization and looting of public wealthYeah they are seriously corrupt, I have said this many times.
>russia who really didnt want to annex anything more than crimeaLet me guess if the borders were drawn at the front today they would never try to take more again, that's why every "peace deal" Putin has offered involves Ukraine having no standing army.
>big majority by all pollsMay I see them?
>you just couldnt get state jobs if you spoke itYou expect me to believe that Ukraine planned to administrate a huge population of native Russian speakers without a single cop that can speak Russian? Is this something you believe yourself?
>Zelensky ran on peace and reverting maidanZelensky ran on joining the EU, the thing that caused EM in the first place.
>CIA backingThe DPR and LPR had T-72s and BUKs "with no Russian backing" and the guys with rocks were backed by the CIA?
>>2224674will a Ukrainian victory and assertion of the unipolar hegemon with the sum strength to crush any left deviation help achieve this? Or a divided world where multiple competing capitalist poles compete for scarce surplus and work against each other?
In severly reductive terms the closest we got to the conditions you desire in the west of a sustainable living wages came under a period of global competition where even capitalist states, faced with sever competition, had to cut in a slice of surplus back to the workers maintain political stability. A situation a multipolar world trends towards and thus a russian regional victory in favour of it.
>>2224704>help achieve thisIn Europe yes, there is massive public support for Ukraine and if it was the left that said "we'll push Russias shit in" that would bring in a lot of people that are required on your side under democracy.
Why do you think this new multipolar world where one side is capitalist and the other side is capitalist would change things?
>>2224752>"authoritarian democracy"Honestly I just leave out the "democracy" part because as soon as someone polls over 10% they end up in prison.
>manufactured public sentimentWhat's so manufactured about "people got invaded and that's bad"? In the case of Iran we would be invading and we would be in the wrong, in the case of China you could argue Taiwan was invaded (if it goes that way) or you could pull the "not my problem" but thanks to globalism and capitalism it is our problem because they make the worlds chips.
>>2224606damn you're really an uninformed retard
>Trump has done more in this area than Russia ever could.its a complex and long process, so every bit help, especially those that happen early enough so that plans are drawn up and alternatives prepared.
>I wouldn't call -0.3% GDP "destroying".its called a recession. Their industry is now non competitive, and it was the basis of their power and leadership in europe
>cost is largely a product of media narrative and political posturingnope, europe pays the ukraine state budget, they pay a bunch of infrastructure reparations, ammo and weapons. When they give their stocks to ukraine, they pay for the replacement at the same time.
It is a significant cost
>I'll believe that whennobody cares what you believe you're a moronic polyp, and their relations are clearly at a zenith
>China is making sure they do nothing to risk sanctions nothing to do with sanctions, they're simply playing the diplomatic and geopolitics game well.
>they won't even sell him arms let alone donate them.russia doesnt need more weapons, they already have an overwhelming advantage on that front. They need a regular trading partner, that can replace the west both for imports and their energy exports, and china is happy to oblige. China is well aware if russia is destroyed they'd be next in line, and they're partners in countering the US led western empire.
>you're one of those guys you're a fucking moron incapable to read that immediately revert to stupid strawmen
>Trump is fixing thatyes im impressed by his stupidity, but for now the euros vassals are still vassals, they try to talk big but nothing actually changed in their lapdogs status. But the contradiction of staying a vassal while its contrary to your national interest should lead to a separation, which is good.
>Is Ukraine in NATO?it was clearly their intent to join, they have nato weapons nato training and nato intel, and its a nato proxy war. The media reaction show clearly the west empire considered ukraine was their turf now, and that russia challenging that was an unacceptable show of defiance.
>someone worse than the US gaining military superiority over the US isn't good for anyone.only the imperialist retarded burgers think they're better than anyone else. They're the single worst state in the world by an immense margin. There is no other force in the world that have been worse for humanity at large.
Also even if russia were to obliterate ukraine and europe, US would still have a bigger military. NATO military is a magnitude bigger than any other power.
People everywhere will rejoice if US hegemony is smashed. Any actual american progressive would be happy to see the US empire crumble.
>The situation being the poorest nation in europe finding gas.lol you think this is about gas. What a fucking idiot, russia doesnt need gas. This is about actual security concerns, having an explicitly hostile neighbor puppet state filled with nazis and their CIA handlers (who also use the opportunity to spy and infiltrate) that quite clearly want your important strategic harbor and set up NATO missiles and radar right next to you. Not mentioning the actual popular pressure to defend russian speaking population
>Yet no one could look at the list of NATO interventions and point out why they are badIm not interested in convincing your retarded ass if you cant even figure out why destroying countries and defending the imperialist hegemony is bad
>that's why every "peace deal" Putin has offered involves Ukraine having no standing army.thats because the war was declared on actual security concerns, and they're not interested in ending it without solving them. Only an idiot would think they primary wanted land out of this whole affair, they want it now to have a buffer and because they have invested a lot in the war.
>May I see them?go look at google, I havent discussed with pro nato morons since quite a while
>without a single cop that can speak Russianmany people spoke both. And if that was a problem you can simply restrict it to the higher up
>DPR and LPR had T-72s and BUKs yes, the mass defection from the russian speaking ukrainian army took their gear with them. And ofc course they got timid support from russia so they wouldnt get crushed and could force a minsk, sadly the ukronazis werent interested in peace.
>guys with rocks the nazi militias had a lot of nato gear, they were certainly not using rocks, they had more weapons than the donbass separatist
>>2224674lol you're not a socialist, you're a fucking lib, and not even one of the good ones because you're also a fucking imperialist
people will join because its their interest and we have success and competent orgs offering a path, not because we have epic debates on obscure chans
>>2224411not the same guy u replied to, but:
>Sanctions take years to decades to come into full effectthis is such platitudist hardcope its not even funny. what exactly is there russia cant get in china/india/rest of brics/around sanctions that will cripple it in 30 years?
>I honestly did expect more civil disobediance and public outcry by year 2westoid ignorance on display tbh. if you spoke a lick of russian, youd never think something this ridiculous due to being able to actually read press and comment sections without having selected bits and pieces shaped into a narrative by some enterprising slop monger.
>Billionsone way or the other, arsenals are getting depleted. i bet you saw the recent "were running out of missilies to fire at yemen" from us media. i wonder why that is…
>Kek, so the sky is full of F-35s?ok lets add "in most categories". M1s, Leopard 2s, Bradleys, etc etc etc
why are you playing gay ass word games, uygha?
>I want to see this avoided by giving them what they need to win today or preferably 2 years ago.Like 2 million manpower? nukes? what? "what they need to win" doesnt exist.
>I hope english is your second language or the UK has the rights to your land.child level false equivalency.
>>2225653There's nothing special about /pol/. Not only are reactionaries permanently five seconds away from each other's throats, as we all know, supremacist movements are laughably vulnerable to purity spiraling.
White supremacism even more so, due to how arbitrary and artificial it is.
>>2225730I'm a Rusyn, from Zakarpatska Oblast. Many in my oblast want to secede and join Russia, like Donbass has done. I support Russia.
I'm wondering why /leftypol/ people support Russia. I can come up with a lot of motivations for why leftists might support Russia or oppose the Ukraine, and ofc the fact that the Banderites support the Zelensky regime is one good and completely valid reason.
However, I want to hear the more individual reasons from people with different ideologies and concerns. Call it a curiosity of mine. I want to understand how I could spread these ideas & get more people to oppose the Zelensky regime.
>>2225760I don't like Russia much personally, it's just that between a nazi infested NATO proxy and Russia, then I'd rather have Russia winning. Also Russia is very important for opposing US hegemony, so if it were to fall it'd be a tragedy.
Twitter liberals support Ukraine because their understanding of the situation is "small bean scrimblo ukraine was attacked by big meanie russia for no reason >O< that's like so evilllll" and that's it.
>>2225837I have Ukrainian fatigue is what I'm saying. Also I've long known what a joke Ukraine is. I followed that retarded election when Zelensky first got elected.
The posts are still up from the Ukrainian drawfag about how much he hates Ukraine, Ukrainians, his parents, and how easy it would be to pay someone to murder them.
>I once said that I don't have Ukrainian and Russian friends because I don't like "our people". The faggot asked me why. Those subhumans just keep dissappointing me. https://leftypol.org/draw/res/1.html#51>>>/draw/51>>>/draw/53>It's easy to rob or hurt or kill somebody and get out of the country before this person even goes to the police. I can get out of Ukraine within 2 days, quick enough to avoid getting caught. I don't need to hurt them immediately, nice vengeance requires planning and time. People get killed for less than $1500, people get killed for lesser betrayals and for lesser insults, especially in 3rd world pisspoor countries like Ukraine, which is poorer than Turkey, Iran, China or Morocco. A couple of broken teeth is a lottery ticket in my view. If they stole $1500 from mafioso, they would be dead already. I had weeks to plan my vengeance, I can't love any woman even half as strongly as I loved the first one, and I don't experience strong attachment to anything but to the things I collect and the awards I inherited. Taking those things from me is worse than rape or stealing all my money and the apartment, they chose to spit in my face and take whatever dignity and self-esteem I had. I didn't draw because of some love for art, I was drawing to earn money. What for do I need money now if I love no one and I have nothing to cherish? There's only bitter taste of betrayal and hate. It's funny he left right when this war started because he immediately flipped to being a rabid hohol supporter. I felt bad for him and contacted him on twitter and he tried to pretend that he never said he wanted to leave Ukraine(he was still in Ukraine at that point.) Now his profile says he managed to flee to Germany lol(the profile pic is his ex Turkish-Ukrainian girlfriend he said who gave him permission to use it as a his PFP to bait coomers because he makes a living drawing porn commissions.
What is there not to dislike about Ukraine and Ukrainians is a better question?
>>2225760socialists and lefties generally oppose the US empire because it is the enforcer of global capitalism and global anti-communism. It is the world's downpressor that constantly fucks with and destroys other countries and movements that resist or try to go a different way. There's no hope for socialism or even any kind of left politics globally when such an empire retains (or expands) global dominance. Therefore that which opposes it and undermines its expansionist schemes is good (ergo Russia is good).
Post-Maidan Ukraine, meanwhile, has defined itself and its aspirations in direct opposition to the above. It seeks to elevate its position in the world by being the empire's most loyal servant and attack dog. It seeks to undermine and overthrow all neighbors (Belarus, Georgia, etc, and of course Russia) who fail to kneel to the empire or accept its expansionist schemes. And not just Europe, but also globally. Ukraine's wreckers are everywhere the empire is trying to destroy a disobedient regime. They're in Africa trying to undermine the anti-colonialist regimes. They were in the ME trying to help overthrow Syria, etc, etc. They are an agent of empire, full stop, and seek to gain acceptance and reward from the empire by being its most loyal servant and helping to undermine all resistance to it. Therefore Ukraine is fundamentally an enemy of humanity, to be opposed.
Most lefties do not support or care much about Russia's internal politics. They don't necessarily love Putin or United Russia. Their internal politics are actually not that much different from most of the West, just a bit stronger state and more state enterprises. But Russia is also not anti-communist or fundamentally anti-leftist. There's a difference between "not communist" and actively anti-communist. You see this different between Russia and Ukraine, and Russia counts a number socialist or left regimes as important friends (China, DPRK, Cuba, Venezuela, etc), and it does not disdain the USSR. It treats its socialist past as an important and valid part of its history with many things to be proud of, even if it's not what the current regime thinks is right or seeks to emulate. Leftist and Communist parties are allowed to exist and advocate their causes. This is in contrast to Ukraine where left parties are all banned and praising the USSR is illegal.
Supremacist ethno-nationalist apartheid regimes are also not well regarded around here. Post-Maidan Ukraine's efforts to erase all things Russian from society, from language, religion, culture, history, etc. is evil and is an attack on a large part of their population, who should not have to accept being made second-class citizens in what is supposedly their own country. If Russia stands up to defend them, good.
Also and finally, most here do not accept the cartoon version of this conflict as a simple case of "Russian aggression" against peaceful democratic Ukraine who dindu nuffin. They know that Ukraine was building up huge forces with Western supplies and support, that it was flatly refusing to ever comply with its obligations under the Minsk agreements, was escalating its bombing attacks on the Donbas, and its ultimate aim was to resolve the issue with force, which put Russia into a corner and gave them a bad choice to fight or just abandon Donbas (and ultimately Crimea) to Ukraine and the tender mercies of Azov and the rest of the Banderites, which they were never going to do.
When you put all this together, it should be a no-brainer for leftists who to support here, but a lot still get it wrong.
>>2224049>>hyper capitalistits not. lots of SEOs significantly less free market not neoliberal like others, more dirigist or gaullist. a big reason for the war is that from 2008-2014 Putin started renationalizing strategic industries like petrol, aero, nuclear taking them off the market and kicking out foreign investors. the west is trying to crack open and balkanize russia repeat the 90s in more detail and reverse their falling profit rates by opening a new market that this defensive war is keeping them out of
>massive corruptionin comparison to what?
>authoritarianmeaningless
>oppression of gayssocial progress is downstream from economics
>conscripting from minority populationsat what rate? per capita? in comparison to what?
>If you are economically or socially leftno such thing as socially left without being economically left
>>2225760We oppose America and the West and want all of that shit to burn, simple as.
And Zakaraptya may be shit out of luck, because no land corridor. And exclaves never worked, and never will.
>>2224304>90 days ago Russia was arguably the most fascist country on earthyou gotta have a materialist understanding of fascisms relationship to imperialism. as we know fascism is last resort anti-communism, as the open terroristic dictatorship of finance capital. finance capital is a concept first put forward by lenin as a merger of banking and industrial capital that is driven by the falling rate of profit and the tendency of capital to consolidate into monopolies. this naturally leads to imperialism in order to open new markets in a situation where the capitalists in question have fully developed technology in their own legal territory and has horizontally and vertically integrated their supply chains to utmost efficiency, but because of the ratio of wages to technology in the organic composition of late stage capital their profit rates suffer.
fascism then, is when the imperialist drive to external territory ambitions is thwarted by an external actor and turns in towards the domestic population. this actually describes the case of the US trying to subjugate russia, not russia defending itself from penetration by foreign finance capital. first it starts with austerity and suppression of wages and cutting of social services and selling off public assets as the only avenue to increase profits in a highly developed high technology economy, re-enclosing the commons and doing away with concessions to labor that resulted from the cold war and post ww2 boom. if this is accepted by the working class you have neoliberalism, if it is rejected and the working class wins you have some form of socialism, if it is rejected and the working class is not organized the state resorts to extra-legal violence and crushes the proletarian movement, and this is when you finally have fascism.
As far as I'm concerned from this side of the pond, this is just a lover's quarrel, family dispute, civil war, etc. and it's frankly none of my business and I automatically am going to hate anyone who tries to convince me otherwise.
Ukraine was still getting paid a billion dollars a year by Russia up until Jan 1st this year. That's how fake and gay this war is.
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/ukraine-quadruples-domestic-gas-transport-fees-offset-impact-russian-deal-expiry-2024-12-30/>Ukraine still earns up to $1 billion annually in Russian transit feesI DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT UKRAINE! At this point if it was up to me Russia would annex it and could all forget the unsettling chapter of Russsian history known as "Yukrayyynyyy"
>>2225805>I don't like Russia much personally, it's just that between a nazi infested NATO proxy and Russia, then I'd rather have Russia winning. This seems to be the prevailing PoV of Westerners, not only on the left but on the right. You can even see a lot of nafo targeting neutral sentiment and smearing it as pro-Russian without even bothering to criticize pro-Russian arguments. However I notice that people are beginning to just prefer Russia outright quite often.
>Also Russia is very important for opposing US hegemony, so if it were to fall it'd be a tragedy.I understand this.
>>2225837>Burger here and slowly I began to hate Ukrainians. I think maybe if I they can lie low and allow me to pretend they don't exist for about a decade my opinion will reset.I could tell you a lot about the horrible things they've done to people in Zakarpatska Oblast, not only the Rusyns but other groups who live here as well. I do not know if you would forget them even decades into the future. I still have not forgotten their crimes against my forefathers under Bandera.
>>2225953>Zakaraptya may be shit out of luck, because no land corridor.Ideally, we join Russia. Unfortunately, we probably need Lvov to join Russia first. Maybe Hungary? I wish.
>>2225916This is a very good post. To summarize, you support Russia because:
1. You support anyone who's against America.
2. The Ukraine itself is an American attack-dog and thus a problem in and of itself.
3. Russia is aligned to most of the leftist regimes of the world, even though it is not itself leftist.
4. Russia is neither leftist nor anti-leftist/rightist but neutral/centrist.
5. "Ukraine where left parties are all banned and praising the USSR is illegal." is really something I've been waiting to hear. I was surprised nobody mentioned it immediately. It truly exposes the fraud of their "democracy."
6. Ukrainian discrimination against other ethnic groups and identities is bad. I completely agree; Zelensky has sought to commit genocide against us in Zakarpatska, and has declared that Rusyns do not exist at all. According to Ukrainian official statistics, Rusyns are counted as "Ukrainians." We are literally erased from statistics as a separate group. Yet they still attempt to commit genocide against us, just as they assault the Hungarians.
7. Despite Western propaganda, Ukraine has culpability for the war.
Thank you for posting so many good points.
>>2226025But Poland got a lot
more money and got to be called European.
>>2225760NATO is the literal continuation of the third Reich and must be destroyed.
I hate Putin, I think he's a violent anti-communist and I know what he did in the 1990s, but I still see Russia as the lesser evil vs NATO.
>Dimitri and Khalid are joined by Peter, author of the excellent Events in Ukraine Substack (eventsinukraine.substack.com), for a wide-ranging conversation about the cultural, military, economic, and deep political dimensions of the Russia-Ukraine war as it faces its three-year anniversary. Topics include:
>Escaping Kiev after the war started, why bomb shelters don’t matter, the epidemic of “State Department Leftoids”, how the post-Maidan government drove Ukraine’s military-industrial complex into the dirt, Bill 3739 and the role of the Sorosites, what “liberalism” represents in post-Soviet countries (self-hating Europhilia), Aaron Moulton’s work on Soros in Eastern Europe, 133 Western NGOs exempt from military service, the susness of pro-western “anti-corruption” activists, the Soros International Renaissance Foundation, Sternenko’s “LGBT Nazi” gangs vs. the unwoke Nazis, gripes from the Tales of the Fourth Reich Telegram channel run by a former ANTIFA-turned-PROFA soldier, and why the Azovites have become more open to ending the war than “jihadist” Zelensky’s clique…
>Business shakedowns via the “Trading With The Enemy Act”, the overarching role of media psyops in Ukrainian war strategy, organizational chaos in the army, pre-war ketamine hipsters DJing on a swastika laptop, why Azov is where the cool kids go, ubiquitous meth/LSD Telegram channels, Nazi units smoking DMT in Donbass, international techno superstar DJ Nastia and her NED-trained ex-husband, the coked up Zelensky advisor/pardigmatic Sorosite Serhiy Leshchenko, Nastia’s sus campaign to get Russian techno figurehead Nina Kraviz blacklisted from EU venues and festivals in 2022, and why everyone in late 2024 dreams of leaving Ukraine.https://soundcloud.com/subliminaljihad/sj-228-events-in-ukraine-pt1interesting interview. 4 months old now. guy is pro-ru but says his dad took him to maidan in karkov. his family is russian but identifies as ukrainian and moved there. to them "ukrainian" means enlightened liberal PMC, primarily for its anticommunism as in neoliberalism like pinochet. "russian" means something like peasant mongols. he identifies it as the same sort of thing as coastal elites vs basket of deplorables, but for them the red necks and manual laborers are associated with communism, and pride in work is something to be shamed that only losers do, and on this basis even ethnic ukrainians are called "russian". reminds me of israelis. he says there are two main groups, azov and sorosites, with the sorosite liberals being the more bloodthirsty and racist, wanting to continue the war and send the surplus peasant population to death, where azov actually wants a ceasefire for strategic reasons.
>>2226478huh? isn’t this contradicting?
how were divisions highlighted if only one guy voted differently? lol
>>2226652As defined by Article 47 of Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions, a mercenary is any person who:
1 is specially recruited locally or abroad,
2 does, in fact, participate directly in the hostilities,
3 is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that party
4 is neither a national of a party to the conflict nor a resident of a territory controlled by a party to the conflict;
5 is not a member of the armed forces of a party to the conflict; and
6 has not been sent by a State that is not a party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.
Got to meet all 6 criteria.
>>2226703If I was a Ukrop I would focus on making the case for why Maidan was justified and heroic and good or whatever instead of trying to pretend like one day Putin just woke up and was like:
>I will annex UkraineOr even crazier, that this was some kind of long-term ambition and goal.
>>2226801he was trying to get them to uphold the minsk accords until the end, genius. its so fucking obvious that you have tuned into this conflict after february 2022. even buddy from "events in ukraine"(here
>>2226113) says that and hes no fan of putin.
>>2226807No, I've been following since 2014.
Even if Minsk accords weren't respected I still don't think it warrant a "special military operation".
I have no fate in the russian government of Putin, from what I've seen with Navalny, Pussy riots…It's pretty clear they are an authoritarian regime who just like to lie and pretend they aren't.
>>2226851>Even if Minsk accords weren't respected I still don't think it warrant a "special military operation". Morally expecting a state to cuck out like a good pet when its signed diplomatic treaties aren't respected and diplomacy proven useless is the attitude that got the west into this mess. Creating a domino effect as sanctions create economic strain on an already alienated political base that then radicalises towards the only bourgeois acceptable pressure valve of right-alternative parties and spiral downwards.
>what I've seen with NavalnyNavalny is a nativist representing the acceptable face of the Russian right wing, who oppose the consitutitonal federal compromise with the many ehtnicities; preferring an explicitly ethnic Russian state. What Putin did to him is what the democrats should have done to trump in service of their own self interests towards capitalist health if they had any balls. Liberal support for Navalny contrary to their own domestic beliefs is explained by the frontier of extraction where exploitation must be supported abroad to maintain surplus for 'tolerance' at home.
>they are an authoritarian regime who just like to lie and pretend they aren'tthey are a liberal capitalist state with the 'mask off'. Where private property must be protected in a harsh environment with insufficient spoils to pretend to respect democratic pageantry. As we are already observing as the economic and political situation gets harsher western government are already tightening the noose on speech, protest and in Romania undesired election results.
>>2226893And Putin is what? Staying in power since 2000 by not respecting the election process?
You aren't communists, just russians shills here. Russia rn is oligarchs and nothing to do to Lenin's ideals.
>>2226921Since you're clearly a liberal here's a thought experiment for your beliefs rather than me engaging with your bait
If the CPC split into two parties, the party of Chinese communists and the communist chinese party, with one picking blue as their colour the other keeping red. With the same foreign policy on Taiwan and the nine dash line etc. The same domestic policy on state security, immigration and policing and the same economic policy on socialism with Chinese characteristics. But with the only difference being slightly different cultural posturing in a culture war. Then letting the chinese people vote every 4 years. Would the PRC now be hailed as a stunning example of liberal democracy? held to an idealist standard no but held to the empricly obersved results of the west abso-fucking-lutely. Bourgeois democracy is a pressure valve for discontent without the threat of actual legislative change to capital. Rather than a figurative party the the russian have a literal one. Rather than switching the suit and tie every 4 years Russia keeps the same one. It is purely a cosmetic difference without a change in function. If the UR party split and 20 different Medvedevs administered the state you would praise them as westernising.
>>2226851>from what I've seen with Navalny, Pussy riots…100% deserved it tbqh.
>It's pretty clear they are an authoritarian regime who just like to lie and pretend they aren't.All governments are authoritarian.
>>2226955 (me)
*figurative uniparty
>>2226955>liberalSocialist liberal. Still believe in a participative democracy, still believe people can vote for something that's the opposite of me, and if they're the majority I should respect it, as long it doesn't fall into an authoritarian regime.
>>2226968You wrote 100% deserved at a man's death, based on the fact you don't like him politically. You're as much in a cult that MAGA can be since every mean is good to advance your beliefs onto others.
>>2226851Le authoritarian regime did not want the Ukraine conflict at any point after the Crimea referendum and its consequences. Its concern with stability and international legitimacy always stood in contrast to anti-Maidan. It had to be dragged into the conflict through NATOization of Ukraine to the point it could declare Minsk dead and the future as the deoccupation of Donbass/Crimea i.e. completing the ATO.
Russia had to be bent, by the sheer regression in liberalism we've seen since the 2010s, towards what leftists support about anti Maidan, BRICS, etc. The result is a cohesive set of world empires and dependent nationalities that acting as global divider, with Russia and China in conflict with Gorbachev's 'mega empire' that betrayed cold war peace promises.
>>2226921Yeah, Russia isn't democratic. If it was, all liberals would have ran away 30 years ago and you would be seething much harder. Putin is the one who saved the liberals from the people.
>>2226955Fun fact: Yeltsin wanted that to happen in Russia, the two parties went on to combine into UR.
Russia has a much wider overton window and real policy that the government goes on to implement is also much more diverse. Russia has ongoing nationalizations while Farage was considered wild for suggesting that in the UK to save steel mills. Meanwhile you still get killed in the west if you say anything serious, like Boeing whistleblowers were. Both /pol/ and leftypol talking points come out of the average person's mouth there while westoids are in the cuck cage of acceptability. What the west has is a lot of money to pay clowns to play in the political circus, not democracy. It is still a bourgeois state, but it is in many ways a better environment for learning to think independently.
>>2226983>Do you think political violence is never justified?Not if it mean bypassing laws and humans right to push your political ideal.
Defending yourself against an oppresor is sometime necessary, neither Navalny or Pussy Riot can qualify as oppresors.
I think the same about Ergogan jailing his only opposent.
>>2226999Russia now is just oligarchs, how is Putin and his selected fews not bourgeoisie.
>>2226979>people can vote for something that's the opposite of me, and if they're the majority I should respect it, as long it doesn't fall into an authoritarian regime.perhaps its time to look out the window…
The political stability brought about by participatory democracy just meant political stability for a capitalist system that's now turning inwards in search of more profit (as the periphery fights back) and your voting neighbours without our ideological principles are going to slide rightwards. what got us here was the capitalist stability under a unipole and what creates opportunity to get out will be division of the global system where fierce competition will consume recourses that weakens capitalist capacity to crush/absorb leftward movement. Towards this position Russia is in a historically progressive position dragging down capitalism in service of itself getting a net positive larger slice of a smaller pie of surplus.
>>2226979>Socialist liberalthats even worse than socdem, you dont even qualify to be on the left
>Still believe in a participative democracywell thats the problem. You believe in the myth of liberal democracy, we dont. We know its a rigged spectacle that is ultimately in service of the porky class.
>authoritarian regimeall states are "authoritarian", and the level of repression is decided by the level of opposition to the system
>>2227072lenin wrote in support of even chauvinists if they opposed liberalism
I forgot which passage but he talks of even supporting religious nuts if they oppose imperialism in the bigger scheme of things
>>2227069>Putin blah blah blah do not understand that 1991 happened ffs Exactly. Russia 100% capitalist and just another imperialist power.
>we are living in the American dominated world.And having russian dominated world would be no different as both as are capitalist.
>>2227084a ruissan dominated world is impossible
having an American-chinese-russian competition to dominate would objectively be better for the formation of real communist movements though
even better if EU and India join the struggle
>>2227117well shucks thats it lads pack it up we lost
wait… what if I create my own splinter international communist party (ML) of 2 people with my pet dog and denounce these revisionist dogs. Everyone get behind my internationalist party line now or else.
>>2227142>>2227145Supporting does not mean "allow them or integrate them into the party".
Anon said Lenin was in favor of supporting right wing organizations if it was beneficial for socialism (why this point is controversial is beyond me lmao, "anti-campism" is pure worker worship and not serious about actually building socialism). Then you said Lenin wanted religious people out from the party. The party is one organ. The party can support religious people while simultaneously closing the ranks to them.
Do you understand now?
>>2227145The alleged "international parties" are all phantom organizations funded by the KKE. They're not relevant in their corresponding countries. It's all smoke and mirrors.
>>2227157Cry about it. Anti-campists here worship abstract notions of DOTP as if that just came by merely wishing it. As if these countries aren't submerged in a geopolitical context. These people have never been involved in actual communist organizing, have 0 knowledge of history, and 0 knowledge of theory. That's a simple fact.
Reminder when sabocat became a "putinist" and many anti-dengist anti-china" leftist eurochauvinists are now suddenly pro-china after being educated. Education is the road to being a "campist" lmao what a world
>>2227149>Its an interimperialist Whatever you may call it, the origin of it, is NATO's efforts to safeguard US hegemony. So no matter how many puppies Putin is fond of kicking. It's still progressive to hinder the USA's effort to reassert it.
Plus the same conflict would be happening, perhaps conducted differently, if it was communists running the RF. If anything Cucktin's faction moderation in hopes of preserving the liberal world and domestic order (and their place in it) are a damper on the conflict.
>>2226801>And him wanting Ukraine for it's ressources isn't a possibility?What the fuck do you think is in Ukraine that isn't in the largest country on Earth which is right next door?
This shit was about the Black Sea Fleet always first and foremost. That's the only thing that Russia absolutely needs. That's why they annexed Crimea right away and then chilled for another 8 years playing around with negotiations with Ukraine. They absolutely couldn't afford to lose Sevastopol so they invaded right away to keep that secure. Cuckler wouldn't even have gone that far if they didn't believe that the Maidan government was going to honor their lease. Then after that he was fine with just having Crimea.
Every step of the way Cuckler was keeping his demands minimal, or at least minimal to the current demands. But the dumbass Ukies pushed him to the point where his only options are not to cuck. You can take the side of the Ukies and say they have been pushed and forced into a similar position of "no step back!" but the difference is that Russia can actually win eventually. For Ukraine it is just a steady losing game.
>>2227197>>2227181@Moffin
@bloodgasm
@anti-campists
Respond now
>>2227123lenin was against religious freaks from the COMMUNIST party
but in places where there is no communist party, or where the communist party is too weak, he supported any forces which opposed imperialists
Lenin would support Hamas against Israel for example
Not because he wants islamists in HIS communist party at home, but because HAMAS is the ONLY entity effectively resisting Israeli imperialism (which is a branch of US imperialism).
The day communist forces grow significant enough to be on par or above Hamas, then the narrative will change. Until then, the communists can continue theorising in coffee shops in Sweden and the Hamas islamists can resist the Zionist aggressor with the blessings of all good Leninists
>>2227320 (me)
*by delaying
>>2227315>one of the many imperialist powersthere is one imperialist SUPERpower and that is the United States, with the EU as their vassal
The rest (Russia, China, and to a much smaller extent, India) can only dream of having the power that Amerikkka has.
In this context, it is justified for a communist to wish for victories of Russia and China over the Amerikkkan entity
>>2227342inshallah
that would be much better than the unabashed, unopposed American hegemony we have today
>>2227369Overly reductive summary: The profit margin lost to automation can be offset with reducing costs through further immiseration. E.g the crisis of profit of the 70's was resolved through globalisation offshoring industry at lower wages. 2008 Was resolved through immiserating future domestic generations who would not be allocated the same volume of high wages and owned homes.
Naturally these cause political alienation and backlash that is then countered by the strength of capital to absorb/crush the blow. A regional capitalist power cannot renegotiate more immiseration elsewhere or domestically without political crisis if it is already in harsh competition with its equally strong neighbours suffering the same predicament.
>>2227399>>2227402>why 70'sas an example of the chain of logic. profit margins were too low to absorb geopoltical instability from oil shocks; creating stagflation and inflaming class tensions between capital and (relatively) powerful trade unions over competition for scarce surplus. This crisis was resolved in favour of capital because they still held hegemon over numerous colonial third world states who could perform industrial labour in worse conditions and gut the leverage of western labour to resist. if this was counterfactually not true and capitalist post-colonial states had the strength to resist in their own self interest. This crisis of capitalism would have to be resolved leftwards
>america is going to become socialistthe american left will have more opportunities to compete for power sooner if labour cannot be bought off through cheap treats at acceptable bourgeois profit margins thanks to periphery exploitation. As an example sahel states are already using geopolitical Russian support to develop internal industries that help their citizens but reduce global capitalist profits as their internal bourgeois take a cut.
>>2227442I can nudge the political landscape of my country to say fuck to ukraine and stop spending money and weapons to continue the war.
On the other hand, anti campist denunciation of russia play into the imperialist hand
>>2227447'objective processes'
wtf does that even mean
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