I realize now subcultures are just another form of false consciousness. I lurked 4chan as Gamergate was happening, I witnessed Gamergate turn from "video game journalism is corrupt" to "THE RADICAL LEFT WANTS TO TAKE OUR VIDYA".
Is it a coincidence that 4channers turned into fascists?
But this isn't a thread specifically about 4chan/Gamergate. Rather, I'm using a lived example, of a subculture becoming a rallying cry for reaction, to illustrate a point.
Why did this happen? Because video games are sacred for anyone who identifies as a gamer. More important than their ACTUAL class interests. That is LITERALLY THE DEFINITION of false consciousness. And OF COURSE that can be used for counter-revolutionary purposes.
<But what about """""progressive""""" subcultures like punk???
NATO ultralibs literally co-opted punk. If NATO ultralibs can think the music represents them, it ain't revolutionary bud.
A relevant quote with regards to the """""revolutionary""""" nature of subcultures:
>“During the Vietnam War, which lasted longer than any war we’ve ever been in - and which we lost - every respectable artist in this country was against the war. It was like a laser beam. We were all aimed in the same direction. The power of this weapon turns out to be that of a custard pie dropped from a stepladder six feet high.” - Kurt Vonnegut
I am sick and tired of the subculture obsession. At best, it alienates the underclass from each other, at worst it is literally used as a rallying cry against communists and the class struggle.
No, I'm not telling you that you can't enjoy video games and music. I'm telling you to stop making it your identity, if you're actually serious about this socialism thing. If something like a disagreement over tastes in video games and music is enough to make you ostracize another prole, I have no choice but to think of you as an enemy of socialism, because that's what you functionally are.
FUCK subcultures
>>2221092The culture originally spawned from /v/tards (and the likes) who didn't want any association with the "gay faggot trans" furry community despite being furries themselves. Self-loathing furries who wanted to be the uncle tom of furries, somehow.
It's fine to reclaim it or whatever and I'm pretty sure at this point it's apolitical, but those were its origins unless I'm misremembering.
>>2221218That's why they're subcultures, and not cultures proper. There is no real hierarchy, just disorganized screeching.
Someone here wrote disorganized screeching on the streets is how you get color revolutions. I can't help but feel the comparison with subcultures is apt.
>>2220758>The power of this weapon turns out to be that of a custard pie dropped from a stepladder six feet high.This is a contradiction: If there is identification or being in these commodities then they exert power, but you claim that this power cannot be wielded positively. Not sure what the synthesis would be.
>Because video games are sacred for anyone who identifies as a gamer.>I'm telling you to stop making it your identity.Think it might even be worse than this; worse than commodity fetishism, and mere identification. It's as if commodities such as video games have become constitutive of the being of people, that they couldn't exist as the same people without them. That it's a necessary structure to their reality, ideological frame, etc. It matters little to me whether certain groups of people have similar identification habits.
>>2221285Depressing, isn't it? Marx is remembered as a visionary and champion of the working class, a father, a husband and a friend. Literally nobody knows or cares that he liked Shakespeare. It's something that would be mentioned once in his biography in passing or as a footnote; ultimately irrelevant to Marx's life as a whole.
Imagine dying and the thing you're remembered for is being part of some "community" and consuming products. Grim.
>>2221400You have anons on here, X.com posters, redditors, TikTokers, arguing if X and Y entertainment is right-wing or not, glazing X and Y entertainment for being "anti-capitalist", thinking it matters. Is this phenomenon not evident?
>>2221407I like how you call me a pseud when nothing in the OP implies I tried to sound smart or pretended I have special knowledge.
Escapism and liking things is not subculture, and I don't know how you jumped to that conclusion, when I was even careful to point out that this is not a crusade against fun. But go off.
>>2220758Ever since at least post-WWII, subcultures have been sublimated into the capitalist ideology. Anything that acts as if it's an escape, really just exists as a novelty on the sideline where it's rendered harmless. We generally understand this with the hippies and new-agers but it's true for all of the ones I can think of. I always cringed at idiots glamourizing the "good ol' days" of punk as if they did anything besides try stupid hairstyles. I saw an interview with that True Anon guy and he was talking about being in a band and wearing a dress on stage for no reason other than because he saw some other band do it, and that sums it up perfectly.
>>2221407Just because you're a retard that doesn't understand what "pseud" means, doesn't mean everyone trying to enunciate a thought or criticism is a "pseud"
>>2221551I agree content farms are soy but that doesn’t change the reality of the situation nor what I said
The gaming industry, like most industries, are filled with an amalgamation of libs and leftists
>>2221561And note that when I say leftist, I mean that the vast majority of those that call themselves leftists are not true leftists but just edgy libs and don’t know what theory even is
Of coarse if you’re a true leftist you should agree with me because the original leftist is going extinct
>>2221563Idk I don't pay attention to AAA games unless it's minecraft. AAA games do weird shit like
>>2221545 all the time to give journalists (which includes the prior mentioned content farms) to write about them. Chuds kept playing battlefield, leftists kept making their indie games, the world remains as is.
>>2221603Nta but Marx shat on socialists as much as he did everyone else
“Muh wreckers” this is a stupid fucking imageboard, not a political party
>>2221606I like how this retard's posts get progressively more retarded and ignores the whole point of the thread, that obsessing over ideas and culture is the job of the petit-bourgeois.
>>2221607>>2221610>Marx is post-left>implying MLs aren't leftoids tooHoly shit you really ARE mentally retarded.
>>2221609Nigha how tf does shitting on you clowns drive people away? This is a shitty imageboard dominated by stalinists and incels, who tf do you think would be coming here to begin with?
Kill yourself if you still can’t recognize where you actually are
>>2221612Marx was a communist, not a leftist
>MLs are leftistsYes
>>2221612ideas shape reality as well as vice versa, it's cyclical. yes material conditions are more important but doesnt mean we cant talk about it
>>2221614>hurr this board sucks so much, thats why I come here>>2221615go get a job instead of samefagging
>>2221622saying communism isn't an ideology is just nonsense, yes leftism has many sects in it though sure
>>2221625lol at the libshit pissy that some of us realize that communism isn't an 'ideology' to be arbitrarily selected or 'held'
>doesnt mean we cant talk about itdoesnt mean you get to be a pb faggot patting yourself on the back for consuming the Correct Media(tm) either
>>2221629Communism is the activity of the proletariat, a specific class in society. It goes beyond ideologies in general. Meanwhile every left-wing ideology is just an excuse to ignore class.
You're taking leftist ideology at face value and from there project your own moralisms onto the world stage. From there, you can then judge in terms of who the good guys are. All people come embedded with bourgeois ideology. Especially those from outside of the working class, who think they're superior educators. It's a continual phenomenon that capital itself produces.
>>2221622I’d just like to interject for a moment. What you’re refering to as Leftism, is in fact, Communism/Leftism, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, Communism plus Leftism. Leftism is not an ideology unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning Communism system made useful by the Communism corelibs, and vital system components comprising a full ideology as defined by MARX.
Many praxis users run a modified version of the Communism system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of Communism which is widely used today is often called Leftism, and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the Communism system, developed by the Communism Project.
There really is a Leftism, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Leftism is the rhetoric: the program in the system that figures out where to put the party's labor via a dialectical process. The rhetoric is an essential part of an ideology, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete ideology. Leftism is normally used in combination with the Communism ideology: the whole system is basically Communism with Leftism added, or Communism/Leftism. All the so-called Leftism distributions are really distributions of Communism/Leftism!
>>2221644Maybe don't subsume literally anyone working for a wage with proletarian? Marx bothered deeply analyzing class for a reason, so people don't only repeat vacuous slogans.
Someone working a 12-hour shift can be entrenched in petit-bourgeois ideology, but the association with other proletarians is what lets them arrive at communist conclusions eventually.
>>2221652Maybe read Marx instead of filling the thread with nonsense.
>communism is a completely fringe ideologyYes, that's what the petit-bourgeois love to say.
>>2221708Well-known internet meme, the petit-bourgeois.
>>2221705Does nobody here know how to read? Communism is the proletarian movement. The movement of proletarians. Fucking retards holy shit.
>>2221712well known in leftist circles yes.
>Communism is the proletarian movement. The movement of proletarians.that literally means nothing
>>2220758Eh I agree and disagree. Subcultures don’t just divide the working class it divides the working class from the mainstream, and the mainstream is elitist culture for the peasants. Subcultures are usually developed by the working class too, not against it but with it.
The reason why 4chan is a fascist hellhole is because 4chan is a glowie controlled mainstream site larping as the underground internet. It’s basically been confirmed that many anons are literal feds. The reason 4chan is fascist isn’t because fascism is underground (trust me it’s not its mainstream), it’s because 4chan isn’t underground anymore and hasn’t for the last like 13 years
>>2221730Easier to build a fursuit yourself tho.
>>2221736Some junkers will run you $500 around the rust belt, if you're up to repairing them.
>>2221833They're even more exensive now and it was very clear how much the economic sitution of the lower to mid income American deteriorated from the price increases since 2019. A partial is now 1k.
Anyway fursuits are for hugging.
So anons, how do we excise ideology (false consciousness) from ourselves? Is it even possible? It's human to have preferences and wishes. But these preferences and wishes are irrelevant to the real movement. We as individuals will seek comfort, in our own ways. But this comfort cannot be the basis of political action in support of the real movement. Seeking comfort as the basis of political action in alleged support of the real movement is, I think, the origin of opportunism. When I look at the patterns of socialists Marx, Engels, Lenin were critical of, they were all seeking reality to conform to their preferences and wishes.
Let's say that hypothetically the working class is homophobic and you are a gay socialist. What do you do? You can either walk away from the real movement and hope they become less homophobic over time, or you can work with the real movement, in whatever capacity you are able to tolerate, reasoning that homophobia will wither away as the proletariat takes capital into its own hands, brings forth with time a new era, where humans have more opportunity to self-actualize, learn and help one another, as there is no more artificial scarcity and exploitation, and in this era, prejudices such as homophobia, have no material basis from which they can spring, that is, if you accept the theory that the superstructure (culture) arises from the base (material conditions), and if you do not, can you really call yourself a communist if your worldview has in effect condemned humanity to eternal chauvinism? For if you believe change must be imposed from the outside else people stay the same, are you not consequently denying the real movement as an agent of change?
>>2222511There are NGOs related to human rights, media freedoms, cooperation with neighbors, etc. even one explicitly related to protecting LGBTQIA+ people I think
I can't name a single "conservative" think-tank. A common conspiracy theory among right-wingers here is that NGOs are controlled and funded by Satanic globalist pedophiles, which have usurped the first world, and brainwash the people through their degenerate media which seeks to destroy families and I guess implement some kind of global slavery system through Bill Gates's vaccines or brainchips or something and
>>2222807Reality has nothing to do with me
"Conservative" think-tanks don't exist here where I live, at least not that I'm aware of (not America, not even the first world)
That's why I pointed out the right-wing conspiracy… that's the general public perception, that NGOs are a "liberal" thing exclusively here (in this country, not America)
>>2222818Read the convo again
>>2220758>>2221015Punk absolutely was astheticized politics. There was no coherent ideology behind it, just the aesthetics of one. This is fine. The music is still good, but buying into it is like believing in the tooth fairy as an adult. I don't get why we are still having this debate about it decades after punk was a fad. There's a reason why so many of punks old guard turned out to have milquetoast boomer lib beliefs if they didn't pivot to being full-on reactionaries.
Also not say punk was necessarily reactionary in its roots but you don't make "nazi punks fuck off" if nazi punks dont exist in the first place. Pretending that the movement was not rife with contradictions is ahistorical.
>>2221044>furry libs are based for kicking out furry nazisSee above. Furry libs hate furry communists too btw.
>>2223270>>2220758>>2221128The weird thing about being online is even though you encounter a lot of idiots, and a lot of idiots who know absolutely nothing about the world, these idiots are often entirely unlike the idiots you encounter in real life. So many people on the internet are completely brain rotted when it comes to fandoms man, trying to look for patterns that aren't actually there. Social media is not real life and I cannot begin to fathom the damage believing so would do to your mental health.
There are a ton of conservatives who absolutely do not care about "woke" or whatever, conservatives who just turn on slop and enjoy it regardless of ideology, who don’t even know that "white character is black now” is something that should upset them because they don’t watch Fox News and most importantly America is not the whole world.
>>2221144>self identified punks whos worldview is identical to that of a lockheed martin employeeTake this one step further:
people who post left memes on leftypol whose practical action towards socialist revolution is identical to that of a Lockheed Martin employee.
Leftypol represents a certain type of meta culture where leftists of a niche can't cope with non leftists and so retreat into safe spaces. There's a benefit to this in that it helps give people psychological comfort, but in the end it just functions to awkward conversations where everything has to be about leftism, plus it only serves to empower the main hub to become more reactionary now that the leftists have retreated.
See for example /r/sigmarxism, a left wing warhammer subreddit. Nice idea, but it's also perpetuates the idea that leftwingers are abnormal and need a separate space cause they can't interact wth regular people.
>>2223344>The consequences of gamergate on the future of the world have been astonishing.it's did jack shit
>>2220758> "THE RADICAL LEFT WANTS TO TAKE OUR VIDYA".bait pls go
>>2223746>See for example /r/sigmarxism, a left wing warhammer subreddit. Nice idea, but it's also perpetuates the idea that leftwingers are abnormal and need a separate space cause they can't interact wth regular people.This isn't new as much as it's just a farcical version of what was already the case. In the past you had socialists, 'Bohemians', feminists, artsy-farsty types and so on, congregating together, forming friend circles (the types of people Orwell screeched about, which is funny because it implies he had no friends). In times of heightened political crisis, such as in Lenin and Rosa's time, the congregations became more sectarian, because differences of opinion became more 'real', but still followed the pattern.
The farcical version today involves being embedded in some internet "community" implicitly or explicitly dictated by a subculture, which unlike the friend circles of the past, has precisely zero revolutionary utility and zero obligation to help one another with real life troubles (like Engels giving Marx money because the man couldn't get a job due to his chronic health issues and political persecution).
>>2220758>false consciousnessOnly if you are the go along to get along type, I'm in a heap of subcultures where we share a common interest but disagree on plenty.
>I lurked 4chan as Gamergate was happeningSame, I even went to 8chan until the pig fucker ruined it, for the vast majority in GG it always was about blatant corruption but as always with the internet a couple of hundred people deciding to make death threats can make it look like tens out thousands of people, even moreso today with bots.
>Is it a coincidence that 4channers turned into fascists?The narrative didn't just move from "you can't trust the media" to "SJWs are killing vidya" that was a deliberate effort by the propaganda machine to retain control.
>At best / at worstHow fucking autist do you get about your interests?
>I'm telling you to stop making it your identityPeople do this? In that case I agree with you.
>>2221704>>2221718 I just dont understand how you thought youd be understood when you just state one sentence slogans over and over expecting them to make sense without explaining what you mean.
you are being vague af
>>2220758I dislike imposed culture.
I like multiple optional cultures.
>>2225661Very interesting. This kind of breakdown really showcases how subcultures are fundamentally antisocial.
>>2225877Are football ultras even called a subculture? Rooting for a sports team is just culture without the sub part, ultras are the extreme version of that. Football ultras and regular fans are in fact part of the same hierarchy, with the ultras acting as the 'big brothers', and the regular fans being complacent in their existence by never for example criticizing the behavior of the ultras of their team and even defending them. The hierarchy is indeed a central component, it is not disorganized screeching, as subcultures are. It's certainly antisocial, being an ultra, but I'd argue being complacent towards ultras is equally antisocial, and such behavior in many Latin American and European countries is normalized.
>>2226131Can you elaborate? Be more specific?
>>2225661it's hard to say that the warsaw pact countries weren't trying to compact everyone into a single mold when they apparently consider people who cosplay as music idols who were relevant 25 years before on the same page of anti-social as literal fucking skinhead nazi gangs.
The ideal of communist culture is an HOA full of sociopath Karens, apparently.
>>2221033>millennials millennials are not a hive mind, and the distribution of millennials who did and did not do this is scattered in a pretty normal way.
im a millennial and i have always managed to find spaces with people who support gatekeeping out the shit heads that ruin shit.
>>2228040if you think the USSR was a success then i dont want you involved when the next attempt at communism happens.
the USSR was good in theory, but what it was in practice was a horribly corrupt system that was so insanely corrupt that it tried to cover up a nuclear fucking meltdown when everyone knew it happened, and then sent dozens of people to their deaths because they didn't want to acknowledge what happened.
the USSR was a failure. we can and should aspire to have something better.
>>2228055unironically eat a bullet
you are in the way
>>2228058it should be studied, and there are parts of it that were fantastic, but ultimately it was a failure.
the point is not every attempt at something will be a success, but dismissing it after a failure only ensures failure in the future.
we will never have a leftist front if we dismiss the idea of subcultures due to some failures of the past, just like how communism could never have a chance if we forever bind ourselves to the fate of the USSR.
>>2228064I don't really dismiss subcultures, and I do not agree with the chud takes that over-rationalise subcultures as something unnecessary, reactionary or whatever. People like other people who have similar interests and will usually seek their company, complete with codes, jargon and symbols. It is no rocket science.
But it might be that I did not read the thread very attentively. I do not see how having subcultures lead to a political system's demise. Yugoslavia had huge sub-cultures (a huge rock n' roll scene for instance), and people see it as one of the best parts of Yugoslav life back then, because it kind of added colour to life in Yugoslavia.
But whether the USSR was a failure or not, depends on how you view dialectics itself. The USSR and its experiences can contribute to a long-term emergence of consciousness, even though the at some point real-existing political project itself failed (as in: its institutions no longer exist and it is no longer a force on the geopolitical stage).
To me, calling it a failure would be a bit radical, because it still managed to exist for 70 years despite immense imperialist pressure, help masses of people out of poverty, and so on.
>>2228072the thing is, it IS a failure. objectively. in the end it was horribly corrupt and was not doing anybody any good, and ultimately led to the russia we have today.
you are, however, doing what im saying we SHOULD do with subcultures, and culture in general. instead of looking at something as a failure and ending it there, we should look into WHY something failed so that we can create a successful version of it.
instead of dismissing punks, or subculture in general, or even the USSR and other attempts at socialism or communism, we should look at what causes the failures we can think of so that we can ensure success in the future.
>>2228093ignoring reality isnt gonna get you what you want
it's just gonna keep us further spiraling into fascism
>>2228096no idea what youre on about now. youre just replying to shit that wasnt said.
hope your therapist can help you because god sure can't, clearly
>>2228100youre right broski
but we aint gonna fix that shit if we outlaw the idea of subcultures and cripple all methods of organization against the machine.
>>2226328>>2226131The behavior of both groups is identical mentally.
Neither have consideration for emotional aspects and neither are likely to have higher brain thought.
Both groups always think inwards and have self preferential treatment.
Both will unfairly dismiss others if they have the ability to do so. The uneducated right wing at the very least will be honest about their hatred, meanwhile the other cultures from other countries will smile and pretend that they don't hate, but act on that hatred in the same manner.
The differences in honesty is because of social conditioning, the foreigners are punished for what they say and their society has become dishonest.
Both these groups will work together to accomplish the goal of punishing people for what they say even though they are at odds with each other as neither of those 2 groups have higher brain thought.
Because of the people's current state any culture will attempt to impose itself, the imposing of culture is an undesirable property.
Hence a simple system which never imposes a culture and forcefully but fairly destabilizes cultures which do impose themselves, becomes ideal. Equivalent imposing of restrictions according to the culture's imposition as a first punishment, then a breaking up of the culture and ripping it apart as a second time punishment for imposition, would work fine to rapidly encourage growth of multiple different cultures and ideas.
Now I say group, but it may be group or person, identifying technically what is causing the problem is required.
>>2228072>we should look at what causes the failuresCommodity production. Both the punk scene and the USSR imploded because they were fundamentally part of the international capitalist system. Punks called it "selling out", in reality, they were literally "selling out" day 1. That's what commodity production literally is, the buying and selling of commodities. There is no such thing as "respectful" commodity production.
You want an explanation for why subcultures are reactionary? Commodity production. Done. Capitalist base > reactionary superstructure. Open and shut.
>>2228917so dont sell shit
ez
>>2229157every alt subculture person i know does their own shit, its always NOTAFLOF, we always make shit for one another, we give our clothes away, we give free food at free events to support our community.
just because you suck at being human doesnt mean the rest of us do.
>>2221039>>2228023>>2221094Now you know how it sounds where you guys generalise and blame zoomers for anything wrong.
>>>2225654Nah that would be ball sports fandom and attending political rallies.
>>2225661Subcultures have always existed.
Also this chart seems to be more upset about kids having their own form.ogf music and fashion rather than the criminal minorities of said youth subcultures.
>>2227938No different from capitalism
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