Auschwitz or the great alibi" (French: Auschwitz ou le grand alibi) is a 1960 article published in Programme communiste, the French magazine of the International Communist Party (ICP), later reedited in the form of a brochure
According to the author, or authors, of this article, the Nazis did not exterminate the Jews because they were Jews, but because they were an important group within the petite bourgeoisie, a social class condemned to disappear by the concentration of capital; and antisemitism in its modern form developed within that same petite bourgeoisie in an attempt to preserve itself as a class by sacrificing a particular part of itself. Concentrated German capital interests, when confronted with the economic crisis, it is claimed, saw this development as a windfall: "It could liquidate part of its petite bourgeoisie with the consent of the petite bourgeoisie, or even better, have the petite bourgeoisie itself take charge of this liquidation". Thus, according to the author(s), antisemitism was determined by socioeconomic conditions:
Under horrible economic pressure, menaced by a diffuse destruction that made the very existence of its members uncertain, the petite bourgeoisie reacted with sacrificing part of itself, expecting in this way to save its other members. Thus, antisemitism did not originate in any "machiavellian plan" or "perverse ideas": It was a direct result of economic constraint. Hatred of the Jews, far from being the a priori reason for their destruction, was but the expression of a desire to delimit and concentrate the destruction on them.
The article refers to Adolf Eichmann's offer to "sell a million Jews" as related by the American relief worker Joel Brand to support the claim that the Nazis at first tried to get rid of the Jewish population by expelling them and that no other countries were prepared to receive them as these other countries were confronted with the same problems concerning their petite bourgeoisie. As the war aggravated the whole situation, the concentrated capital forces of Germany ended up organising the extermination of the Jews.
The phrase "Auschwitz or the great alibi" refers to the more specific claim that after the war the Holocaust was made use of in order to demobilize the working class as part of a propaganda effort establishing a belief that the "antifascist democracies" were of an entirely different nature from fascism, making the working class forget, by being exposed to the relics of the extermination, that these were in fact the outcome of the same logic of capitalism that they themselves also were obeying. In this perspective, the exhortations to fight fascism in the name of democracy were in fact a lure destined to make the proletariat forget that their true enemy is and continues to be the capitalist system: It is in this sense that "Nazi barbarism" would be the "great alibi" of the capitalist democracies.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_or_the_great_alibi(Rule 12 - low-quality reactionary content)>>2226576wrong, this reasoning presupposes class analysis from Nazis, which they were/are incapable of.
Mein Kampf is the best indicator of this: Hitler was a Cultural Warrior (as we see a lot today) and could only understand the changes in history as Great Aryan vs Wretched Jew struggles. Everything he liked, he found a way to Aryanise them (art and music that he found good, Roman Empire etc) and everything he disliked was necessarily secretly Jewish (bolshevism etc).
>>2226582 (me)
these pseudo-intellectual 'marxist' type analyses are common from leftcoms (which the ICP is/was).
I would not be surpised if they tomorrow say. the Hutu-Tutsi genocide in Rwanda was not tribalist massacre, but was somehow a petit-bourgeois reaction against whatever the fuck
>>2226582this
i used to kind of shill postone's essay on the holocaust which i kinda regret
the bleak truth is that the nazis were idiots even if they were historically momentous
>>2226582>wrong, this reasoning presupposes class analysis from Nazis, which they were/are incapable of.And I get banned for saying the same thing about Israelis. Their psychotic religion is the main impetus for "Zionism." Their religion is literally Zionism. If it:
> was somehow a petit-bourgeois reaction against whatever the fuckThey would've picked literally anywhere else on Earth. Rather they wouldn't do it in the first place like most of them didn't and they would just live a cushy life in America as most of them do.
>>2226576The Holocaust emerged to keep wages down
The death camp emerged out of the work camp, which was created to extract surpluses out of workers without paying them wages as the German economy was devouring itself already, it doubled up as a means to hold political prisoners and “undesirables”.
German capital was already primed to start massacring proletarians anyway as significant proportions of the population were considered surplus, that is, surplus to capital’s need and very capacity to extract surpluses from labor
So the logic that ended in genocide began in overt and extreme terror against the workers
However, a slave features as fixed capital under the capitalist economic system
That means slaves come with associated costs, slaves require housing, food, and clothing no matter how abominable
The solution, given wartime expediency, was genocide; annihilation through work, those who could be put to work were worked until their bodies gave out, those who could not were executed outright, including the elderly, pregnant women, children, and the heavily disabled; slaves could produce wartime materials for essentially no costs beyond the tiniest scraps of worm filled food and the guns required to hold them in line, meanwhile companies could simultaneously profit off selling killing materials to the state to distribute in the camps while also profiting off the utilization of slaves to secure raw materials to be further transformed in German factories manned by extremely underpaid German workers
If you want to read some more about economic reasoning behind holocaust, I heavily recommend Wages of Destruction. The quick sum-up is, during war is that Germany suffered from food shortages, and to prevent famine decided that it has to murder X amount of people from occupied territories, and also dealt with labour shortages, which resulted in millions of people being purposefully worked to death in camps. However, plans for Holocaust were drawn even before these circumstances made it convenient, anti-semitism was one of the primary motivators of Nazi foreign policy. While there was some material motivation behind the Holocaust, the primary was psychological, to understand Nazi actions, reading Freud helps more than Marx.
>>2226680Your post really made me giggle.
Basically every other country other than USSR had antagonistic relationship with the USSR, was Germany really any special?
Tragic that Geyer's Peasant Army, Forty-eighters, Spartakusbund etc. were crushed by Prussian/German regime, but so in every other country every revolution met its re-action.
With the same logic, one can also say Germany is awesome because that place was the cradle of philosophy which encompasses Marxism XD
>>2226825>TLDW: The Talmud is a collection of Jewish legal debates and dialogues in which various perspectives and concepts are argued. Most of the horrible sounding quotes are from perspectives being put forward for the specific purpose of being debunked. They're then further taken out of context to muddle their meaning. E.g. the one about how a man who has sex with a three year old "has done nothing" is actually saying that if a three year old girl is raped, then she is still legally a virgin for the purposes of her dowry when she gets married as an adult.Bro, you can't believe every religious nutter apologist. I can pull you a million Christians claiming any verse in the bible means anything.
Read some perspectives from some anti-Jewish Israelis:
https://daatemet.org.il/en/question/pedophilia-in-halacha/
>Dear Oshri,
>First of all, we appreciate the courage and intellectual honest it takes to clarify these issues to arrive at the truth.
>Our answer to Pedophilia in Halacha which you printed and showed to your teacher was precise and accurate.
>Note, please, two things:
>1. Halacha permits having sexual relations, even with a minor under the age of 11, through sanctification and marriage. (This is pedophilia.)
>2. Halacha exempts one from punishment incest with a girl under the age of 3. Though we say “exempts,” this does not mean that one may do so. For example: a father who has sexual intercourse with his daughter of more than 3 would be liable to death by burning (Maimonides, Laws of Forbidden Intercourse 1:5), but if the daughter is under 3 the father is exempt from punishment. (this is the halacha we cited from Maimonides; it is most odd that your teacher did not find it.)
>To remove any doubt, we will cite Maimonides’ words in full:
<Any woman is forbidden to them if she is age three and a day or above. A grown man who has sex with her is liable to death, karet, or lashes and she is exempt unless she is an adult. If she was younger than this, both are exempt for her intercourse is not intercourse. Similarly, a grown woman who has intercourse with a minor child of nine years and a day is liable to karet or death or lashes and he is exempt; if he were nine years old or younger both are exempt.
<If a man has intercourse with a man or a man has intercourse with him and both are adult, they are stoned, for it is written “Do not have intercourse with men,” be he the penetrative partner or the penetrated. If he is a minor of nine years and a day or more, the man who has intercourse with him is stoned and the minor is exempt. If he is a male of nine years or less, both are exempt, though it is appropriate for the court to subject the adult to lashes for rebelliousness, for he had intercourse with a male, though he was under the age of nine. (Maimonides, Laws of Forbidden Intercourse 1:13-14).
>We would be pleased to see your teacher’s response.Yair Evron>Professor Emeritus, Political Science department, Tel Aviv University, and Senior Research Fellow at the Institute for National Security Studies
>Daat Emet is an organization of primary importance in Israeli public affairs. The accelerated growth of the ultra-Orthodox and the nationalistic ultra-Orthodox in Israel is a serious threat to the nature of the state and society. Daat Emet is a reasonable and rational voice which makes an important contribution to the dissemination of free, secular, and humanistic thought. Daat Emet has a central educational role to play in the fight for the future shape of Israeli society.Joseph Rivlin>Professor Emeritus of Textile Chemistry Philadelphia University, Pennsylvania
>The Daat Emet organization presents a unique and critical picture of the Jewish faith and all its branches. I see Daat Emet as one of the pillars of those who fight ignorance and superstition. If this plague of ignorance which destroys everything good within us is not stopped, it will lead us back to the days of the Dark Ages.Nati Linial>Professor of Computer Science The Hebrew University, Jerusalem
>A central factor in the success of the natural sciences is the ability to identify errors. The willingness to retest old suppositions and to make corrections based on new observations is critical in the research of truth. The Daat Emet organization casts a sharp and sober eye upon ancient Jewish beliefs and without fear sorts through what is correct and what is erroneous, what should be adopted and what should be rejected. This is all done from a sincere obligation to the truth. This is an important contribution to the clarification of our identity. In an era where immersing in nonsense faiths is so popular, one should support a group like this, one which champions rational investigation and untiringly seeks the truth. >>2226850Here's some commentary on that passage from an online version of the text.
>When an adult male enters into relations with any of the women forbidden in connection with the above transgressions who is three years and one day old or more, he is liable for execution, kerait, or lashes and she is not liable… If she is younger than this, both participants are not liable, for the act is not considered as sexual relations. <For until that age, her signs of virginity will regenerate and hence, relations are not of consequence. Nevertheless, even when the girl is below that age, it is forbidden to enter into such relations>If a minor of nine years and a day or more is involved, the man who enters into relations or has the minor enter into relations with him should be stoned and the minor is not liable. If the male [minor] was less than nine years old, they are both free of liability.<For sexual relations with a male below the age of nine are not of consequence. Nevertheless, it is forbidden to enter into such relationshttps://www.sefaria.org/Mishneh_Torah%2C_Forbidden_Intercourse.1.16?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en>>2226863>I don't understand the appeal of debunking Nazi propaganda online >>2226866debunking what? scripture quotes about hating the goym?
you know it's real, at best what you can do here is say
some are exagerated/fabricated but you know that they exist
>>2226871>debunking what? scripture quotes about hating the goym?Quotes deliberately taken out of context and misrepresented for the express purpose of justifying hatred of Jews.
>you know it's realAnd yet the examples posted here have already been debunked and it took literally five minutes of searching to do it.
>>2226887I didn't say it wasn't real, I said you need to consider the context in which it was written.
>GENTILES = ROMANThe Romans were gentiles yes, and the gentiles that most Jews would have been by far the most familiar with during the Roman occupation. Even if he wasn't referring to them specifically, then it's worth considering that this is still after several centuries of foreign rule. Somehow if a Palestinian made similar comments about Jews in general (not just Israelis) then I doubt you would be so quick to condemn them.
>>2226891>resisting an imperialist occupation is a heinous crimeCome on, I know you're not stupid enough to believe this.
>>2226892Yes, they're similar insofar as they were resisting an occupation by foreign imperialists.
>>2226857>It's not a detailed description, and it's a about how a young girl shouldn't be blamed or have any influence on her legal status if she's raped. That's part of what it says, but not the whole thing. Why are you so disingenuous?
>Finally, if one of all those with whom relations are forbidden, as stated in the Torah, e.g., her father or her husband’s father, engaged in intercourse with her, they are executed by the court for engaging in intercourse with her, and she is exempt, because she is a minor. If the girl is less than that age, younger than three years and one day, the status of intercourse with her is not that of intercourse in all halakhic senses; rather, it is like placing a finger into the eye. Just as in that case, the eye constricts, sheds tears, and then returns to its original state, so too, in a girl younger than three years and one day old, the hymen returns to its original state. So as it clearly states. Above 3 years old, adultery with her is death penalty, if below that age there is no punishment because it's like poking someone's eye.
>If a minor of nine years and a day or more is involved, the man who enters into relations or has the minor enter into relations with him should be stoned and the minor is not liable. If the male [minor] was less than nine years old, they are both free of liability. It is, however, appropriate for the court to subject the adult to stripes for rebellious conduct for homosexual relations although his companion was less than nine years old. Also in the case of the sub-9 year old, the adult is exempt from liability, whereas if they were above 9 it would be death penalty for the man, but they do include the OPTION of whipping for homosexuality.
Also it says that there is absolutely nothing wrong with fucking a 3 year old girl as long as she is married to the man.
>A girl who is three years and one day old, whose father arranged her betrothal, is betrothed through intercourse, as the halakhic status of intercourse with her is that of intercourse in all halakhic senses. And in a case where the childless husband of a girl three years and one day old dies, if his brother the yavam engages in intercourse with her, he acquires her as his wife; and if she is married, a man other than her husband is liable for engaging in intercourse with her due to violation of the prohibition against intercourse with a married woman. And if she is impure due to menstruation, she imparts impurity to one who engages in intercourse with her who then renders impure all the layers of bedding beneath him, rendering them impure like the upper bedding covering a zav, in the sense that it assumes first-degree ritual impurity and does not become a primary source of ritual impurity, and it renders impure food and drink, but it does not render impure people and vessels. If she marries a priest, she may partake of teruma, like any other wife of a priest; if she is unmarried and one of the men who are unfit for the priesthood, e.g., a mamzer or ḥalal, engaged in intercourse with her, he disqualifies her from marrying into the priesthood, and if she is the daughter of a priest, she is disqualified from partaking of teruma. >>2226894the quote doesn't say kill the romans, it says kill the gentiles
i called it, you're not even trying to "debunk" this crap and immediately pivoted to downplay it
>>2226896These have already been addressed. Commentary on those passages specifically reiterates that sexual intercourse with any child is still forbidden, even if those particular punishments are not applicable.
>>2226897Yeah and anti-Zionist movements often talk about killing the Jews, not just Zionists or Israelis. Should we take this to mean that they want to kill all Jews and are genocidal?
>>2226900Jesus was an anti-Roman agitator himself, the Romans didn't need to be tricked into killing him.
>>2226913They aren't rewriting it, they're clarifying it, and they have the authority of they're Rabbis.
>>2226914>Jesus didn’t preach anarchyNo but like all Jews he preached rejection of the Imperial Cult and subordination of faith to the state.
>The Gospels indicate The gospels aren't contemporary sources, they were written almost a century later.
>>2226919>They aren't rewriting it, they're clarifying it, and they have the authority of they're Rabbis.They're not THE rabbis and other rabbis say fucking different you idiot. And once again they're not clarifying, they're rewriting it. I already said this one:
>If a minor of nine years and a day or more is involved, the man who enters into relations or has the minor enter into relations with him should be stoned and the minor is not liable. If the male [minor] was less than nine years old, they are both free of liability. It is, however, appropriate for the court to subject the adult to stripes for rebellious conduct for homosexual relations although his companion was less than nine years old. Says it is still punishable by lashings to fuck a boy under 9, but not mandatory and the fact that they are a child decreases the severity of the crime.
What are you not getting? You're trying to center the whole discussion on your made up revision that's not accepted by the wide body of Jews or rabbis.
>>2226926>They're not THE rabbis and other rabbis say fucking different you idiotCool, show me the ones that contradict those commentaries and say its okay to fuck toddlers.
>You're trying to center the whole discussion on your made up revision that's not accepted by the wide body of Jews or rabbis.So your unironic opinion is that most Jews are okay with pedophilia?
>>2226961>In 1933, about half a million people in Germany considered themselves to be Jewish, comprising less than one percent of the populationAlso
>middle class>petit bourgeoisieHello reddit!
>>2226960>The petit-bourgeois are the most bloodthirsty of the lot and they'd gladly devour each other just to attain the status of a haute bourgeois.You under estimate what the petit bourgeoisie are.
They don't wanna be bourgeoisie they want to ensure that property ownership of small scale enterprise and their own labor are guaranteed. They view prole emancipation as a threat to their home and shop. They aren't going to organize a giant hate movement to kill less than 1% of Germany.
If you believe that sorry but you believe in the Protocols of Zion for petit bourgeoisie.
>>2226902>Yeah and anti-Zionist movements often talk about killing the Jews, not just Zionists or Israelisthe comparison only makes sense if you accept the "us vs them" mentality judaism sets up for "gentiles", something i wouldn't expect a communist to just take at face value
jews are killing palestinians in israel, "israeli" is de facto a political term for "jew in israel", the roman empire was not a "goym supremacist" state
as if that concept would even make sense to a non-jew, no one self-identifies as gentile THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF IT BEING A SLUR JEWS USE
>>2226993Projection award.
Not even gonna reply cause someone else will to call you out on your retardation award.
Still did not dispute the less than a million in Germany at the time award.
Most retarded newfag post of 2025 award.
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