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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internets about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
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File: 1623187796461.png (286.69 KB, 576x566, privilege.png)

 No.305951[Last 50 Posts]

aka /leftypol/: An Exploration into the Causes and Effects of Identity Politics.
Let's get to the bottom of identity politics, bane of the radical left and blockade to normie socialism.

ITT post about idpol and anti-idpol.
Post literature, effortposts, infographics, etc.
Post about what idpol is, the history of idpol, idpol today, the problems with it, and how to deal with it.

The point of this thread is to develop our discourse on the topic. Currently the meaning of idpol and many people's understanding of it is extremely nebulous. This is a problem for us in addressing it in general. It is a problem for the mods appropriately moderating it. It's a problem for users knowing what posts are good. Most importantly it's an obstacle to people knowing what kind of theory is sensible and based versus what is idpozzed and cringe. Most of us will agree that idpol is a problem the left deals with to some degree more or less online or in real life. It is both an inferior understanding of politics and a way of baiting people. What we sometimes don't agree on is what idpol is and how it works. That's what this thread is for: fleshing out our discourse so that we can better combat liberalism (and other right wing politics) and promote communism.
>>

 No.305953

It’s the new opium of the masses, the soul of soulless conditions and the heart of a heartless world. No I will not explain.
>>

 No.305956

Rational to cooperate with your group
>>

 No.305962

no. go away
>>

 No.305964

I define idpol as anything that proposes a theory of social history or a course of political action which does not recognize interactions between productive class as the primary motive force that explains how we are today as we are, or how we aught to change it.
>>

 No.305965

idpol is best exemplified by the progressive stack. hobbling politics with representational bullshit
>>

 No.305966

Here's my analysis:

You can't control the cultural currents of the masses, period. These things will happen, accept it.
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 No.305967

>>305966
so if the masses accept nationalism then you should accept it ?
>>

 No.305968

>>305962
Idpol fag detected
>>

 No.305972

what i don't like = dumb
what i like = based

that's my measure
>>

 No.305973

>>305967
Nationalism is not a culture.
>>

 No.305977

>>305973
Why not? It can be part of culture. Like you have with the opposite of nationalism, which is happening in modern day sweden
>>

 No.305981

File: 1623188547904.png (2.21 MB, 1956x2027, 1623132245924.png)

To me idpol is any analysis of history or society or the economy that puts the onus souly on the hands of the individual rather than placing the onus on the natural functions and motions of history and the material causes for these motions.

It's the difference between able to understand the history and causes of slavery as the material accumulation of capital as a historical imperative and sseeing white people, or, whatever other "identity" as the root motivation of these historic motions: White ppl = bad" vs "The historical division of labor has lead to the accumulation of capital through out history that has taken the form of slavery among many other forms of domination through out history.
>>

 No.305982

>>305973
nationalism can be the preservation of culture or the desire to change it in some sort of way look at the KMT
>>

 No.305985

>>305977
Nationalism has nothing to do with cultural or identity shit but it can be part of it. Nationalism isn't combated by culture though, it's combated by telling people that imperialism is bad, taking care of our people is good.
>>

 No.305986

>>305973
It absolutely is a culture, lol. Borders and nation states were not handed down by god. They were developed historically and out of specific material circumstances.
>>

 No.305988

File: 1623188694872.png (608.46 KB, 894x849, 1623188686524.png)

>>305951
Idpol is a faggy porky tool to distract from class and turn people into consoooming troons, gays, whatever. Back when porky didn't utilize these tools look how fags looked like. They literally looked like normal fucking workers, nowadays they dress up like dogs in pride parades. Porky just utilized this new tool. (no hate trans, gay, whatever comrades but this is how its used). Ever wonder why idpol obsessed fags consoom this much? So much make-
up and physical operations and much more? It is just a new tool.
>>

 No.305992

>>305986
Just because Ideology, Culture, Religion, Law, Governance are all in the domain of the Superstructure doesn't mean they're all the same.
>>

 No.305996

>>305981
>has nothing to do
>can be part of it
What the shit??

>it's combated by telling people that imperialism is bad, taking care of our people is good.

Ok but that is your preference which is nice, but quite utopian if you ask me
>>

 No.306001

>>305981
I have seen plenty of documentaries of packs of animals banding together to outcompete competitors. Seems pretty natural, and predating us as a species
>>

 No.306004

File: 1623188928298.jpg (222.47 KB, 1278x1181, 1623129070807.jpg)

>>305996
You having a seizure m8?
>>

 No.306006

>>305986
So what? It doesn't make them any less real because of that
>>

 No.306008

>>305988
Except it predate homo sapiens and is perfectly natural
>>

 No.306010

File: 1623189031791.pdf (136.6 KB, 210x300, cole2015.pdf)

>>

 No.306012

>>306004
No m8, you are just not a clear thinker, and contradict yourself, also you think your preferences seem to meaningful, and they are sadly not
>>

 No.306017

>>306008
Well, I was specifically talking about how the modern bourgeoisie use idpol. Should've clarified.
>>

 No.306019

>>306012
How have i contradicted myself in anyway?

Also the second reply wasn't even to the linked post which is confusing and comes off as massively skitzo.
>>

 No.306023

>>306017
Again why would you make that meaningless distinction to begin with?
>>

 No.306024

>>305951
Identity politics essentializes identity without regards to the material relations underpinning it. At best, it assimilates identities within the realm of discourse and media (not economic autonomy and security!); at worst it incites intra-class conflicts.

As leftists, we fight for the free determination of all individuals and their full emancipation from oppressive power structures. The rights of individuals to live according to their own wishes is a fundamental part of leftism.

It is for this reason that identity struggles are a particular manifestation of class struggle and identity politics as such is the neoliberal recuperation of particular class struggles at the expense of the whole class struggle, and hence, essentially conservative. Being against identity politics does not mean that oppression based on personal characteristics does not exist, but rather that fighting for the emancipation of individual identities without a class character ultimately amounts to fighting for individual emancipation, rather than emancipating the group as a whole.

Instead, we advocate for the political organization of communities on the grounds of class analysis, class solidarity, to achieve political gains and protection now, with the ultimate goal of full emancipation of all the working class.

Further reading

** Racial politics (mostly Black Panther stuff)

*** It's A Class Struggle Goddammit! - Fred Hampton (Fred Hampton was a member of the Black Panther Party who was assasinated by the FBI)

*** Power Anywhere Where There's People - Fred Hampton

*** The Panthers and the Patriots By Michael McCanne Edit
An article about the black Panthers work with the Young Patriots a group of SDS guys who reached out to white working class people in Appalachia and the Deep South
+ https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/05/black-panthers-young-patriots-fred-hampton

*** Footage of the Patriots and Panthers working together to build class consciousness
+ https://youtu.be/RPTwDO0sh-E

*** Fred Hampton's famous: "We're not going to fight capitalism with black capitalism we're going to fight it with socialism" speech
+ https://youtu.be/fJSqZrVjDds

*** Paul Robeson (Check out his Wikipage)
+ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y-xfqP6FOE
+ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmFjjaFNHKo

** Identity politics as such

*** Exiting the vampire castle - Mark Fisher
+ https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/exiting-vampire-castle/

*** Essentialism and the problem of identity politics - Lawrence Jarach
+ https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/lawrence-jarach-essentialism-and-the-problem-of-identity-politics

*** Against Identity Politics by Lupus Dragonowl
+ https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/lupus-dragonowl-against-identity-politics

*** White purity by Asad Heider Edit
+https://www.viewpointmag.com/2017/01/06/white-purity/

*** Adolph Reed: Identity Politics Is Neoliberalism Edit
+ https://bennorton.com/adolph-reed-identity-politics-is-neoliberalism/

*** Identity Crisis by Salar Mohandesi Edit
+ https://www.viewpointmag.com/2017/03/16/identity-crisis/

*** Michael Parenti
+ https://youtu.be/n79kRP5RB2M
+ https://youtu.be/ZkttzU86CFE

** Intersectionality

Intersectionality, in summary, is a left liberal theory about the system of oppressions and how they can overlap. For example, it's different being gay and black, than those things separately. It is sometimes misconstrued as meaning solidarity.

*** I am a woman and a human: a Marxist feminist critique of intersectionality theory - Eve Mitchell
+ https://libcom.org/library/i-am-woman-human-marxist-feminist-critique-intersectionality-theory-eve-mitchell

*** The Communist Case Against Intersectionality by sev_k
+ Intersectional “leftism” is not authentic leftism. It is a bourgeois ideology that must be rejected.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vnLzfRqPS8

*** Class is More Intersectional than Intersectionality
+ https://imperiumadinfinitum.wordpress.com/2016/11/11/class-is-more-intersectional-than-intersectionality/

*** Marxism vs. Intersectionality by Jessica Cassell
+ https://www.marxist.com/marxism-vs-intersectionality.htm

*** Intersectionality: A Marxist Critique by Barbara Foley
+ https://multiracialunity.org/2018/09/26/intersectionality-a-marxist-critique/

** Privilege Politics

*** Privilege politics is reformism
+ http://libcom.org/library/privilege-politics-reformism

*** The poverty of privilege politics
+ http://libcom.org/library/poverty-privilege-politics

*** Behind the epidemic police killings in America: Class, poverty and race
+ https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/12/20/kil1-d20.html
>>

 No.306025

>>305985
>has nothing to do
>can be part of it
What the shit??

>it's combated by telling people that imperialism is bad, taking care of our people is good.

Ok but that is your preference which is nice, but quite utopian if you ask me
>>

 No.306027

>>306019
Sorry disregard my response. I don't want to touch this word salad. I was asking someone else
>>

 No.306032

>>306023
How the fuck is it meaningless?
>>

 No.306034

>>306024
Can i have ethnostate socialism?
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 No.306035

>>

 No.306036

>>306027
What?

How is it word salad? It's simple lol:

Idpol = "White people bad inherently"

Not idpol = "There are historical and material imperatives for colonialism."
>>

 No.306039

>>306035
What if i am african in africa?
>>

 No.306043

>>306039
then you will be critically supported if its to own the porky but at some later date when you become porky we will probably supply rebels in your country with sks to shoot you
>>

 No.306044

>>

 No.306058

>>306043
Who is "we," also how do "we" feel about closed borders of my country? Can africans freely move to europe? Can europeans move to africa?
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 No.306061

File: 1623189827450.jpg (546.73 KB, 1175x1829, zE9fXeq.jpg)

>>305988
the problem with this definition is that it imagines that idpol is a new phenomenon that refers exclusively to left-liberalism. if McDonalds was selling the KKKLansburger and Pepsico was selling new pink "autogynephile blood" cherry pepsi to the based magapedes that would still be idpol, just as it was idpol in the 1900s when British agricultural producers put out this gem.
>>

 No.306065

>>306039
Read Kwame Nkrumah
https://www.marxists.org/subject/africa/nkrumah/1967/african-socialism-revisited.htm
The answer is no.
>>306043
Ethnonationalists in Africa have only ever been prostitutes to capital, fomenters of division, and vile genociders of proles. They are not in any way our allies, even in "practical" geopolitics.
>>

 No.306069

>>306065
So europeans and chinese can just freely migrate to africa? Open borders for africa?
>>

 No.306085

NTA
>>306058
In capitalism or in socialism? In socialism I have no issue, but then again mass migration won't really be an issue either. In capitalism the whole topic is a red herring, such things are going to inevitably occur regardless within the system as whole.
>>306069
>So europeans and chinese can just freely migrate to africa? Open borders for africa?
Why not? It's not like mass migration from capitalist economic forces and imperialism is an issue anymore.
>>

 No.306089

File: 1623190213081.png (173.02 KB, 571x379, soap.PNG)

>>306061
>idpol
It really seems to be human default, and not some porky conspiracy
>>

 No.306091

>>306089
Explain, I don't get what your image for ants is proving.
>>

 No.306105

>>306085
I want closed borders like north korea. i don't give a shit about utopian future world
>>

 No.306106

>>306089
humans are naturally tribalist, naive people like yourself imagine that this somehow justifies your own particular tribalism. so you are a racist, or a nationalist, or a phrenologist, very good for you. but your own particular tribalism is no more meaningful than those who put so much value on one's self proclaimed ideology, their astrological zodiac signs, their preferred games console or operating system, whether they identify as a "yes" or a "no" in the scottish independence question, or whether the dress was white or blue. all are manifestations of that basic tribal impulse.

where porky influence comes in is in deciding to a great degree which causes are given attention and which wither on the vine. just as man has always had violence, but the invasion of iraq was clearly bourgeois power games, so too has man always had tribalism - but modern idpol, be it the neo-phrenology of the racists or the technicolor logo festival of modern corporate boards is a manifestion of the very same.
>>

 No.306112

Here is some historical reading related to identity politics from the actual radical left.

Karl Marx - On the Jewish Question (1844)
>You know who this guy is.
This text (12.2k words) deals with the contemporary topic of Jewish liberation in Prussia, and it delves into the relationship between identity and political relations. It's also a useful text for Marx in general.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/jewish-question/
<Feudal society was resolved into its basic element – man, but man as he really formed its basis – egoistic man.
<This man, the member of civil society, is thus the basis, the precondition, of the political state. He is recognized as such by this state in the rights of man.
<The liberty of egoistic man and the recognition of this liberty, however, is rather the recognition of the unrestrained movement of the spiritual and material elements which form the content of his life.
<Hence, man was not freed from religion, he received religious freedom. He was not freed from property, he received freedom to own property. He was not freed from the egoism of business, he received freedom to engage in business.

Alexandra Kollontai - The Social Basis of the Woman Question (1909)
>Major figure in the Russian socialist movement, was on the Central Committee, Commissar for Social Welfare in the Soviet government
This text (6.5k words) delves into the contemporary question of women's liberation at the beginning of the 20th century. It examines how bourgeois liberal forces corrupt genuine movements for liberty into further empowering the bourgeoisie.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/kollonta/1909/social-basis.htm
<Class instinct – whatever the feminists say – always shows itself to be more powerful than the noble enthusiasms of “above-class” politics. So long as the bourgeois women and their “younger sisters” are equal in their inequality, the former can, with complete sincerity, make great efforts to defend the general interests of women. But once the barrier is down and the bourgeois women have received access to political activity, the recent defenders of the “rights of all women” become enthusiastic defenders of the privileges of their class, content to leave the younger sisters with no rights at all. Thus, when the feminists talk to working women about the need for a common struggle to realise some “general women’s” principle, women of the working class are naturally distrustful.

Emma Goldman - Woman Suffrage (1911)
>Major anarchist theorist, lived in the US and later Russia after being deported there from the US, ultimately died in the Spanish Civil War
This text (4.3k words) is an anti-voot manifesto calling out the failure of "inclusion" style politics to actually liberate people, by placating them with an equal share in inequality.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/goldman/works/1911/woman-suffrage.htm
<Few countries have produced such arrogance and snobbishness as America. Particularly is this true of the American woman of the middle class. She not only considers herself the equal of man, but his superior, especially in her purity, goodness, and morality. Small wonder that the American suffragist claims for her vote the most miraculous powers. In her exalted conceit she does not see how truly enslaved she is, not so much by man, as by her own silly notions and traditions. Suffrage can not ameliorate that sad fact; it can only accentuate it, as indeed it does.
>>

 No.306133

>>306112
Based. I need to read Kollontai. I also added it to my repertoire.
I'd be nice if we had a standard copy pasta that can be pasted in situations like this.
>>

 No.306141

File: 1623191095123.png (4.1 MB, 2170x1262, ec3d300efef61df771d850390c….png)

>>306094
And? The company was called out inside of China as well.
>>306105
>I want closed borders like north korea. i don't give a shit about utopian future world
North Korea isn't ethnonationalist, and it borders is a reality of the situation it finds itself in. My point wasn't utopian, it's just what socialist deveopment inevitably entails.
>>

 No.306163

>>306106
>humans are naturally tribalist, naive people like yourself…
So i am naive to not believe in utopia?

>imagine that this somehow justifies your own particular tribalism

I don't have to justify anything to myself, but like it because it seems most rational

>so you are a racist, or a nationalist, or a phrenologist, very good for you

Yes exactly

>but your own particular tribalism is no more meaningful than those who put so much value on one's self proclaimed ideology, their astrological zodiac signs, their preferred games console or operating system, whether they identify as a "yes" or a "no" in the scottish independence question, or whether the dress was white or blue. all are manifestations of that basic tribal impulse.

Absolut bulshit, this is just how you see it, not reality. But again, i don't care if you want a comunism with nintendo players, go for it

>but the invasion of iraq was clearly bourgeois power games

Not the petit burgers, also i would place the blame on american elites and their big state, much like SU occupied Afganistan. I don't support it and i don't know what this has to do with me?
>>

 No.306164

>>306141
It really seems to be human default, and not some porky conspiracy? Right

In fact US elite porky is quite pro african in this case
>>

 No.306166

>>306133
>I'd be nice if we had a standard copy pasta that can be pasted in situations like this.
Cobble some together from stuff you read or clip out some good quotes.
>>

 No.306179

>>306141
Based Kim
>>

 No.306204

>>306176
The eternal cope of the /pol/ uyguyr
>>

 No.306226

>>306204
Do you think pol care about muslim uyghurs?
>>

 No.306231

>>306226
You are a uyghur
>>

 No.306238

>>306164
>It really seems to be human default, and not some porky conspiracy? Right
What's the "human default" you are talking about?
>In fact US elite porky is quite pro african in this case
What are you talking about? Capitalists are pro-profit, that's all they actually care about at the end of the day because that's what the system forces.
>>

 No.306239

>>306231
I am not. But why would pol oppose such treatment of those people?
>>

 No.306246

>>306141
https://web.archive.org/web/20141011203315/http:/www.kcna.co.jp/calendar/2006/04/04-27/2006-0427-009.html

Forced multinationalism/multiculturalism has been a tool for genocide utilized by Imperialists, however.
>>

 No.306252

>>306238
Idpol is human default.
>>

 No.306258

>>306252
Well, when you put it like that…
>>

 No.306259

>>306252
>circular reasoning
>>

 No.306261

>>306259
It's not, that's just my empirical observation.

>>306258
Am i wrong?
>>

 No.306265

>>306246
Also communist China, CCCP
>>

 No.306268

>>306259
>Capitalists are pro-profit, that's all they actually care about at the end of the day because that's what the system forces.
>>

 No.306270

>>306261
stupidity is a human default, something you haven't grown out of yourself, for example.
But you can, if you so wish.
>>

 No.306273

>>306246
>Using an article not even supported or written by the government, but instead part of an outlet known for people writing a vast variety of articles in response to various topics
>The article itself relates to the US trying to convince South Koreans that they shouldn't unify through a specific type of multicultural argument, not that multiculturalism is by itself a bad thing.
Take off that flag.
>>

 No.306277

>>306268
That isn't a circular argument though.
>>

 No.306282

Isn't it at the end of the day something about where you draw certain lines of behavior? Example: if you remember the DSA conference that went viral because it was interrupted every few minutes asking people not to use gendered language or not clap because it would trigger sensitive people. Clearly thats too much. Yes those special needs people are going to feel alienated without all the rules. But the other way is going to be alienating to everyone else.

The focus shouldn't be on fighting where the line is drawn. But HOW it is drawn. Right now the great majority are disempowered. So the only way they see to change the world around them is by arguing about pronouns online. That is what I think everyone can agree need changing. And it necessarily begins with the workers having power over the society they're building.
>>

 No.306284

>>306282
Everyone needs a say in production not just consumption. Idpol is what happens when workers see themselves as only consumers
>>

 No.306294

>>306284
>>306282
based posts.

Another issue is that neolib ideology related to oppressed people goes unchecked and there's no coherent leftist ideology at hand to counter it.
>>

 No.306299

>>305988
This is really an exemplary post. How do you lack this much self-awareness to complain about "idpol" but than you keep using homophobic slurs, which is precisely the type of behavior that makes homosexuals turn to idpol for answers? We live in a world where dominant demographics mistreat less powerful demographics (not just based on class) and they are expected to take it. "They looked like normal workers," and who says everything has to suit your heterosexual sensibilities? I know that my views are not accepted on your little imageboard for shut ins anyways, but if there is ever going to be a socialist revolution. then the content on here is evidence that all the problems liberal "idpol" addresses is still going to be a problem, because you as supposed communists engage in mistreatment towards these demographics. So how is it solely capitalism's fault that racism, sexism, homophobia exists, if after a socialist revolution people like you are around? One day you people must realize that these issues stand on their own and can't all be reduced to class and capitalism.
>>

 No.306307

>>306299
Self-awareness is lacking in many American leftists. He just sounds like he doesn't take care of his brain. There is some truth in "In order to change the world, you have to change yourself first"
>>

 No.306311

There's nothing wrong with idpol/intersectionality as long as class politics is included. Racism/sexism/etc. doesn't magically stop existing after the means of production have been seized.
>>

 No.306312

>>306307
How do you take care of your brain, what does this mean?
>>

 No.306321

>>306311
Very true.
>>

 No.306325

>>306299
You were on the right track in general, up until this part:
>So how is it solely capitalism's fault that racism, sexism, homophobia exists, if after a socialist revolution people like you are around?
>One day you people must realize that these issues stand on their own and can't all be reduced to class and capitalism.
You're correct that the person you are responding to has internalized homophobia of some kind, and heteronormativity is a thing, despite sounding like lib pomo shit.

The point of this thread is to teach these leftists that they are right in some regards and wrong in others. Like that anon was right about some stuff, and wrong about others, so are you. I have to sleep now, but there have been readings posted if you're interested to know more.

>>306311
>There's nothing wrong with idpol/intersectionality as long as class politics is included.
Yes there is. I've linked to some articles above. Read them please.
>Racism/sexism/etc. doesn't magically stop existing after the means of production have been seized.
You are mixing things up here. One thing is not related to the other.
>>306321
No. Read the fucking articles, thanks.
>>

 No.306328

>>306312
Take care of your eyes first.
>>

 No.306333

>>306315
Fuck off polfag.

>>306321
>>306311
not by me

Individuality = the quality of being a singular person with a unique identity
Individualism = focusing on the individual as a social unit in one's sociopolitical ideology
Hyper-individualism = extreme focus on the individual as a social unit to the exclusion of others

Intersectionality "destroys individuality" in that it reduces people from their identity as a unique person to their identity as an intersection of identities (which by the way ignores the variability in their experience of discrimination - not all black people get shot by cops for instance). Intersectionality is anti-individualist, but this isn't a false dichotomy because acknowledging individuality doesn't make you an individualist, but rather denying individuality precludes the possibility of individualism. Also, opposing individualism opposes hyper-individualism but not specifically. It sweeps up other forms of individualism which aren't the same thing as the hyper-individualism of capitalist realism.


All intersectionality does is ask the State to incorporate the oppressed and marginalized into the function of its structures, whereas the old solidarity implies a cross-identity coalition to abolish the system which necessitates oppression and marginalization in the first place.

The glaring contradiction, of course, is that this managed diversity robs multiculturalism of its potential to be a progressive force and creates a new form of conservatism, along with a monoculture. Each identity or cluster of identities is given their space and allowed to do whatever it takes to preserve it, and the private sector profits handsomely as massive corporations offer their commodities to these spaces in support of this task. Thus, the tools used by the myriad of identities all come from the same monopolies, making any individuality a mere narcissism of small differences, usually dependent upon who has the most money to continuously update their identities ability to present itself as unique among the ocean of the marginalized. In this scenario, multiculturalism functions as little more than an ad campaign which reassures the oppressed and the marginalized that reform of the system, and certainly not revolutionary work aimed at overthrowing the system, is necessary because Amazon Prime will sell to you no matter your creed, color, gender identity, or sexual orientation.

Intersectionality and all of these other recent developments in western "leftism" are actually quite conservative. They’re a good example of the whole Lacanian conception of a pervert as someone who may initially appear to be revolutionary but over time exposes themselves as one of the least revolutionary people imaginable because their "subversive" actions aren't oriented toward changing social structures they just get off on being subversive, so when the market gives them a cultural space and provides them the tools to do so to their hearts content they end up actually perpetuating the current social arrangement in an even more efficient manner than in an overt police state.
>>

 No.306338

>>306337
Install gentoo
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 No.306355

>>306299
You misunderstand what "class" is doing here. It's not that poor people are the only valid gays or some weird shit, it's that CLASSED SOCIETY, the mechanisms of power, etc are what enables these things to exist in the first place and what perpetuates them.
Honestly, I won't do a good job explaining it. It's much better if you just read good authors and ask questions:
Read this post: >>306024 and this one >>306112
Don't listen to the retarded polfags.
>>

 No.306394

>>306105
No one cares what you want, rapemeat.
>>

 No.306399

>>306311
Except you take care of their material basis and make it a matter of getting the racist generations to die out.
>>

 No.306401

My view on idpol is that it is essentially two things. On one level it is simply a divide and conquer strategy to inhibit any form of class solidarity or organizing among the masses by fracturing it into narrow tribalistic identity categories.This is why the media and institutions, as fronts for the status quo, push it so avidly. Secondly, it is a byproduct of consumerism-induced narcissism, a form of non-productive manipulation tactic that is a byproduct of the cut-throat careerist politics of the upper middle class trying to break into the elite. The whole victim mentality is often baseless and unwarranted, but young upper middle class college students are indoctrinated into embracing it so that they have a strategy for manipulating their way into better positions of power and privilege by posturing as though society owes them something. Because the liberal class embraces this ritualized performance of victimhood, they are often rewarded for this nonproductive parasitic behavior.

Ultimately however thee main cause is that it is divisive and prevents any form or broad organizing among the masses and creates petty squabbles over nonissues for the sake of "progress" while the billionaire oligarchy continues to wreak havoc and materialize absolute domination of all spheres of political and economic power.
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 No.306488

File: 1623200173649.jpg (53.33 KB, 500x500, artworks-000231433642-5vnd….jpg)

>https://soundcloud.com/johanarbraz/death-to-identity-politics-remix-leftpol-batko-phunklarique-dejonka

Idpol is identitarian privilege used to prevent and subvert a truly intersectional(tm) sorting of the stateless, classless, cultureless into their predetermined and essential states, classes and cultures. (see what I did there)

Everybody should change their social media profiles(capital production) to the flag(prejudicial discriminator) of the stateless, classless, cultureless minority to show our support(not solidarity) with the human race minority that doesn't get enough representation(not direct enfranchisement). Akshullay, the human race isn't a minority at all but makes up 100% of the population in some regions; studies have shown (not that either of us should read them for parsimony or rigour in design <appeal to ignorance>).

By obeying my command to do this, my social capital shall increase further which shall advance me from my lower state, class, and/or culture to a more exploitative position and thus reduce my own exploitation at your expense. Back the X! X Lives matter! (Buy my merch! Opportunism)

Or we could establish the dictatorship of the proletariat(rule by those that work/are involved with/affected by a given thing) and the international soviet(negation of false incomplete identity) by recognizing there is only one past and we all must inherit it's consequences; and only one future we must all navigate to seize it's opportunities given the totality of conditions from that one past.

The nation/grouping is vanity, there is but one Earth(Universe) in which to live. Divorcing yourself from the real universe by framing a separate identity to this introduces a logical fallacy that may justify any fallacy, horror, or criminal act.

Idpol is madness and the progenitor of madness in others.
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 No.306498

>>306311
>included
no, this is fascism. paying lipservice to class issues when pushing that the main problem is x group of people.

>Racism/sexism/etc. doesn't magically stop existing

if you define it as peoples personal feelings then it never will. if you define it as any ability to take serious action based on them then the only method through which oppression can be achieved is through economics. It doesnt matter if jim hates bob if jim cant do anything about it, and thats as good as human society is ever going to get.
>>

 No.306529

Did anyone post Rafiq yet
>>

 No.306641

>>306529
Wait is rafiq actually still active? I thought he disappeared with revleft?
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 No.306673

>>305981
to me.. I.. uhh.. my take on this is…ummm…so a materialist analysis should take into account…uhmm..

ok, you know what? Just give me the fkin SAUCE NOW PLEASE
>>

 No.306715

>>306311
This, intersectionality isn't about taking away the analytical power of class analysis but to embolden it with a fuller, more wholistic picture of capitalism. Of course a system which relies upon women for social reproduction is going to be sexist. Of course a system which exports misery and plunder to the Global South, and is born off the backs of slaves, is going to be racist. Capitalism required these oppressions in order to function, and it still functions under the same logic today. If you are to unite a global working class then you would have to speak to these oppressions, not by themselves as naturalised ahistorical aspects of their individual identify, but as a necessary and integral part of the current mode of production. Class analysis is important, but by itself it is not enough - racism, sexism, ableism etc. does not fall from the sky, nor is it an after effect, these injustices were developed in and through capitalism. Just as Marx once criticised Feuerbach for speaking of Man when he should have spoken of ‘real historical men’, so too our analysis of capitalism must speak of real historical people.

https://www.historicalmaterialism.org/articles/intersectionality-and-marxism
https://newleftreview.org/issues/i227/articles/judith-butler-merely-cultural
>>

 No.306719

>idpol thread singling out lgbt and slandering it as bourgeois
watermelon style good faith discussion right from the start, nice job /pol/ "converts"
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 No.306722

>>306719
remember when "lefty"/pol/ at least pretended to equate lgbt with anti-lgbt religious movements? they don't even pretend anymore, wouldn't want to upset the /pol/ack after getting them into soviet aesthetics, they're the real working class after all
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 No.306729

>>306722
ITT: Bunker seethe
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 No.306739

File: 1623209946246.png (243.8 KB, 953x510, Gigachad.png)

>>306715
I love you<3
One of the best posts in the thread.
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 No.306741

>>306719
Pointing to the co-opting of a movement by capitalists =/= equating it with capitalists.
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 No.306742

>>306673
Lol, i don't have the sauce anon. I found it on anon.cafe, lol.
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 No.306746

File: 1623210105886.jpg (230.38 KB, 1000x1613, ape_angel_nature.jpg)

i havent seen anyone talk about what underlies idpol. It's not just that companies pander to certain identities. This is just basic marketing - get someone to relate to your product more closely, or feel as if it's a part of their subculture or gets them.

The real shit is how currently we're so autistic about identity. It goes beyond just knowing our place within the cultural fabric, our various identities and how people perceive them. It's an abstracting of basic identity categories and perceiving them as concrete metaphysical facets of reality, and importantly it's an embracing of the categories we belong to as a fact about ourselves, as opposed to a perception existing within others. It's basically this ontological internalization of identity.

The white racist sees whiteness as a real thing existing within him, that makes him fundamentally better. This is idpol.
The black person experiencing racism has to accept that others perceive them as less deserving of a good life, more dangerous, stupid, whatever. This isn't idpol, even if they band up with other black people, based on their shared oppression and the fact that their skin triggers some people.
The black person experiencing racism accepts herself as fundamentally "black", and that that entails a long history of oppression that she carries on the legacy of (or even worse, embraces black nihilism). This is idpol. The identity has been moved from the form of pattern of lived experience, based on the facts of your existence, into an ontological category that you embody.
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 No.306747

File: 1623210210799-0.jpg (206.51 KB, 1024x682, Pedro-Castillo-en-Carabayl….jpg)

File: 1623210210799-1.jpg (490.52 KB, 1080x1346, 1622731814780.jpg)

The idea that class politics is an indivisible remainder that can't be co-opted is a commonplace notion on the left but seems deeply mistaken. Blue-collar hardhats here in the United States beat up anti-war protesters in the 60s. I think it's because they were employed in the arms industry and were materially benefiting from the war. The emphasis in what's derided as identity politics on the left after that seems like an attempt to keep a radical tradition alive on the left at all.

Also it was pretty interesting watching the Peruvian elections because Pedro Castillo is a social conservative which caused liberals in the U.S. with a cosmopolitan value structure to whine a bunch. But his rallies were rich with the cultural symbolism of the indigenous people who were his base of support. What are you going to tell them? They shouldn't do that? If you attempt to repress this, I think you'll only make it stronger. They shouldn't feel proud of their culture and identity? These are people who were colonized and oppressed for centuries by imperialism and capitalism while rich anti-communist women in Lima dye their hair blonde.

This has gotten me to start reading Mariategui, and a century ago he was writing about how the white country-club aristocrats and bourgeoisie in Peru scorned the popular and national and saw themselves as white above all else, and you could definitely not count on them being opposed to imperialism.
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 No.306750

>>306715
>Capitalism required these oppressions in order to function
No it doesn't. It doesn't require any other oppressions to function, much less these specific ones. The historically constructed "oppressions" are whatever scam the ruling class of the time came up with to manage the working class(es) better. The system can still function without these, and there may well be systems of oppression that serve these purposes even better (or are better suited to changing times). The intersectionality discussion is almost entirely confined to reshuffling the way that these systems of oppression work rather than abolishing the basis of the entire system (class society).
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 No.306753

>>306746
But the thing about identities of the oppressed though is that their anger against oppression because of their identity can be channeled against the bourgeois class. What I want to know is how do you keep out bad faith actors, like feds or black hammer? There's some people who are part of oppressed classes but fall victim to idpol over class politics, and there has to be an effective way of making sure these struggles are intersectional with class.
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 No.306763

File: 1623210824243.jpg (38.89 KB, 343x481, 7f5255d268c0032c4bba48ee73….jpg)

>>306715
>This, intersectionality isn't about taking away the analytical power of class analysis but to embolden it with a fuller, more wholistic picture of capitalism.
Typical intersectionalist mumbo jumbo. We already have internationalism for that. Intersectionality has done zero (0) besides suck internationalism of its real-politik content and fill the hollowed out space with obnoxious PMC sophistry. Workers don't need intersectionality. Blacks need black movements, immigrants need immigrant's rights movements and we all need internationalism. No one needs this managerial cult cooked up in American law schools and sociology classes. If you're a snake-oil peddling PMC, know that we you and we know what you're all about. If you're a worker, then please do take this invitation to reconsider. You'll feel much better.
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 No.306771

>>306753
I think it's up to each individual if theyre gonna be idiots or not. If they get conned into thinking it's not cause theyre poor, its cause theyre black, maybe show them how poor whites live. If theyre happy with that then i guess they really werent gonna be radical on behalf of their place within capitalism anyways. And lots of people get into stupid conspiracy theories that dont even really incorporate any real identities or anything? Its the same vibe though.
Idk, its really a hard problem, if it's even a "problem", and not just something that has to play itself out. If you have a friend who's deep into idpol and you think they need help, maybe try starting a conversation with them about how their situation would be better if the problem was resolved their way, if realistically things would even be better.
I'm not a believer in class consciousness though, i think most people are idiots, who want to be told what to do, and dont really care much about having a good life, they just want to live up to some fantasy (be a mom, a chad buff dude, have a fancy iphone and larp as bourgeois)
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 No.306783

File: 1623211450846.mp4 (1.24 MB, 640x360, Spurdo Sparde Biden-s Firs….mp4)

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 No.306790

>>306750
If the system can function without these scams, why doesn't it? Why doesn't it do away with the dehumanisation of the Global South or the relegation of women to housework and affective roles? These relations aren't epi-phenomenal effects of class society but are a key role in capitalisms functioning. There is no reshuffling because there aren't any parallel systems of capitalism, patriarchy, heteronormativity etc. - they are different sides of the same dice.

>>306763
This is a strawman argument. Internationalism and correct intersectional analysis have a lot in common (in fact I would argue that intersectionality emerges from internationalism before it was corrupted by back-slapping liberal standpoint theorists).
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 No.306791

>>306753
>intersectional with class
>>306747
>The idea that class politics is an indivisible remainder that can't be co-opted is a commonplace notion on the left but seems deeply mistaken. Blue-collar hardhats here in the United States beat up anti-war protesters in the 60s. I think it's because they were employed in the arms industry and were materially benefiting from the war. The emphasis in what's derided as identity politics on the left after that seems like an attempt to keep a radical tradition alive on the left at all.

i dont follow the conclusion that identity is really actually an okay or useful thing to organize based on from 747 (if i read the post right), but i fuck hard with the fact that being a worker is itself turned into an identity. (which is used to justify bad working conditions, long hours, having multiple jobs, etc. in the name of showing the superior grit of the working class, when we should be demanding higher pay for less work, better conditions, easier access to property to leave the cycle of rent and side hustles, etc. It's totally reactionary to buy into workerist culture. It's peak idpol used to defang leftism)

The problem of idpol isnt class struggle VS all other struggles
the problem of idpol is taking a material relation, and internalizing it and turning it into an immortal metaphysical category, or something to be reified
identity is horrible, and people wrongly choose to take hold of their identity rather than let others choose it for them (can i get a "disavowal of castration"?), but the reality is that you do not embody these identities, and the identity is totally fictitious. It's fictitious even as it causes a homophobe or xenophobe to beat some minority up. It's a fiction in their head. It doesnt need to become a fiction in our head too.
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 No.306828

>>306790
>Internationalism and correct intersectional analysis have a lot in common (in fact I would argue that intersectionality emerges from internationalism before it was corrupted by back-slapping liberal standpoint theorists).
I also think there's a whole cottage industry of consultants in the United States who go around selling workshops and that can get pretty wacky and might be where some of the "pyramid of oppression" stuff comes from. I doubt that's so much of a problem with intersectional theory though as much as everyone being required to work as a startup entrepreneur. We don't really make anything, but there's still a ton of money circulating around the corporate sector and there's a massive class of people with sociology degrees and what are you going to do with it? Also there's that liberal individualism where because I am part of X identity that somehow gives me some kind of authority and everyone has to check their privilege around me all the time.

I haven't read much intersectional theory but I can see the similarities though. "The development of things should be seen as their internal and necessary self-movement, while each thing in its movement is interrelated with and interacts on the things around it." Likewise, if you're an internationalist and an anti-imperialist, your whole basis should start from the idea that people in different countries know what's best for their own situation, right? I'm an American but to say that Americans know what's best for everyone, or that I know what's best for everyone, is a filthy bourgeois idea that justifies our imperialism over the rest of the world. But we can't import the Chinese or Russian revolutions to America or anywhere else and expect it to work either, different revolutions have to match their respect conditions, traditions, experiences, etc. But you can see points of commonalities and where they "intersect" in other words.
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 No.306847

File: 1623214446023.jpg (193.95 KB, 1134x566, 416e46320a6cf17.jpg)

IdPol is commodified otherness and and politics as consumption
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 No.306848

>>306828
>I also think there's a whole cottage industry of consultants in the United States who go around selling workshops and that can get pretty wacky and might be where some of the "pyramid of oppression" stuff comes from.
Yeah big time, the whole "White Fragility" fellowship is a big offender - breaking down racism to be a personal problem, cover-to-cover idealism and seminars which not only make people more racist but places management to be the boss of who's racist or not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kALT95W5giM
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 No.306854

>>306847
nationalism is idpol too
idpol can exist without commodification or consumption
it's a way of thinking about identity, not a commodification of anything
And marketing pandering to specific social groups can exist without idpol, it would just be normal marketing which tries to get you to identify as much with the ad as possible, and see the product as something you need to fulfill yourself as a part of x social group
at this level it's just subconscious identity, as in we see people who look like us, and we know they're people like us.
Idpol is a warping of the whole political space around identity, where it becomes the deciding factor in our lives, and something we hold on to explicitly
We will always have identities and be part of various social groups, and with capitalism this will always try to be exploited to sell us things based on demographic
identity politics is a radical shift where simply having identity is no longer how reality functions, instead you "identify" as a verb, you participate in your own identification rather than it being an action done to you by society
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 No.306862

There is no greater threat to true leftism than identity politics (i.e pseudo-leftism.) The far right is a red herring, an obvious bait, a caricature. They are the useful idiots mobilized by the super-elite to distract from the deeper scheme. The deeper scheme consists of the excess brand recognition that the falsified leftism of identity politics presents, which alienates and aggravates both the far right and the true left. It is a useful wedge, preventing the true left from fully integrating a materialist conception and antagonizing the right with its obvious absurdities and petty trivialities. Furthermore the public perception of the left is dominated by the idpol segment, who are useful idiots of the capitalist class.

The true left would do well to liquidate/gulag/reeducate/summarily execute all proponents of the reactionary and counterrevolutionary impulses of identity politics.
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 No.306866

>>306862
>The true left would do well to liquidate/gulag/reeducate/summarily execute all proponents of the reactionary and counterrevolutionary impulses of identity politics.
I think we can do reeducation, but summarily executing them is probably murder according to laws of various countries and we could go to prison for that.
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 No.306895

One of the dangers of idpol is that new identities can be produced constantly. There are as many different identities as there are nationalisms, sexualities, religions, revivalist LARP groups, fandoms, friend-groups, and divisions within all of them. There are many possible new identities, and if you reach a critical mass of people that belong to it, the identity can become a social force, and eventually a political topic. More will be made as the previous ones die or become co-opted, and I always tell myself that transracialism and interspecies marriage will become a serious political topic someday so that I'm not shocked by it.

That's how history has gone through since people could disagree in groups. People mobilize based on what they immediately know, whether it was Gamergate, Neo-Confederate "heritage", minority ethnic groups, or a new sexuality. People don't pop out with a bird's eye view of the whole, and internationalism is a project, not something immediately understood.

What's going on presently is that a particular kind of liberal/post-liberal ideology sees new identities (or at least just the new identities during its time) as something to be at the forefront of accepting and tolerating, as if to add them to a list of things to be sympathetic to. This has the role of easing the liberal's conscience by reminding him that he's an understanding person who tries his best to be fair to everyone. It gives the warmongers something to castigate some other country for. The liberal ideology itself gains from it by not stagnating and always having something to do before its completion. And it doesn't need to solve the problems effectively, but make as much drama about it as possible so that there can always be public engagement about the new "oppressed" or the new "insurgent force". If you've ever felt that, say, arguments about leaving the toilet seat down felt unbelievably petty and exhausting–especially when they ask your opinion for it–then rest assured that people will eventually get over it and find some other stupid thing to argue about. Engagement is what the liberal ideology is trying to get from idpol–the division between the proletariat is not reliable but a good bonus if it does happen.

The problem isn't identity by itself (you can't escape having an identity unless you become some kind of buddha). Nor would identity politics be a problem if it could harken it back to a material analysis. What idpol does by itself is make a politics of spite and vengeance. If you mobilize purely based on identitarian concerns, you will only be able to manifest your political actions as a war against an opposing force to you. Nationalism wouldn't be so dangerous if it didn't make us suspect racism and possible mass murders along the line if they took power. The far-right, even if it somehow excluded bourgeois involvement, are defined less by their methods and more by their sense of hatred of some thing–that's part and parcel of the identity politics they have, be it ethnicity or religion. It's difficult to tell if all identity politics necessarily culminates in genocide, but I wonder if that was out of a lack of opportunity than of identity character. John Locke, for all his faults, recognized and tried to advocate a way to control religious idpol when internal religious conflicts were happening left and right.

Communism does use identity too–we see ourselves as members of the proletariat who oppose the bourgeoisie. But that doesn't mean that killing the bourgeoisie will bring about communism by itself. You can kill all the rich shits in the world, but if you don't organize the forces of labour and start rearranging them as a dictatorship of the proletariat you'll just be left with a repeat of bourgeois ideology without the bourgeoisie (opportunistic warlords and porkies-to-become, expectations from workers that someone will tell them what to do instead of deciding themselves, etc). That's the crucial difference between idpol larp and real political struggle: the material analysis allows us to develop determinate solutions, not just empty appeals to liberation. We have grounds from which to adjust supply chains and the collection of resources, not just pursue a thirst for vengeance. Identity is only a first step in developing political consciousness. The next step is to strategize on how to apply it.

It's totally justified to find idpol and its tunnel vision (at best) annoying, and it often is counterproductive. But I think it's a better idea to pick our battles and maybe see if we can't pick up some useful allies along the way. We can save our vehemence for the bourgeoisie, and be stern but polite about idpol retards, at least if they're talking in good faith.
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 No.306896

>>306866
> probably murder according to laws of various countries and we could go to prison for that.
Muh laws. Do what needs to be done. A revolution is against the law. That's the whole fucking point. The whole point of revolution is to overthrow the entire legal framework of the existing society. You can't get that omelet without a few cracked eggs. In any case the most committed idpol ideologues have blood on their hands, profiting off the continuation of the conflicts they claim to oppose. They would be out of a job if racism or sexism or what have you went away. It might not be necessary to kill them but "canceling" them is not good enough, to use their phrase. Send them to the diverse and wonderful salt mines.
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 No.306900

>>306866
Just to reiterate there is no such thing as the crime of murder in a state of war.
>“The state calls its own violence law, but that of the individual, crime.”
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 No.306903

If this is just going to the containment thread for all RadLibery from now on i might as well post this gem i just found just today.

https://transformharm.org/surviving-rape-as-a-prison-abolitionist/

>SURVIVING RAPE AS A PRISON ABOLITIONIST.


This women proceeds to make the argument as to why she did not report being raped TWICE BY THE SAME PERSON, mainly because "he's a fellow BIPOC individual" and because of "Her internalised whoreaphobia"

Like this is what functionally actually believing all this shit does to people
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 No.306928

>One of the dangers of idpol is that new identities can be produced constantly. There are as many different identities as there are nationalisms, sexualities, religions, revivalist LARP groups, fandoms, friend-groups, and divisions within all of them.
This is a good point and it underscores the essential decadence of the idpol movement and thought process. It engages in this constant process of discrimination in which ever finer categories of narcissistic self-identification are reified and made into all important political hills to die on. There are even some who make being fat an identity! And you see the never ending descent into ever more delusional abysses of narcissistic political impotence. Someone who makes being fat or whatever the existential core of their politics is beyond useless, they are actively harmful to any meaningful development. They have been incorporated in what is essentially a consumerist model of identity, viewing themselves in terms of niche issues rather than seeing the big picture, and actively opposing higher-minded aspirations for concerted mobilization.

I suspect that from a leftist perspective this is the other side of the coin that the right perceives as "degeneracy". It is counterrevolutionary to seek to make the fact that you are fat (or black or female or gay or trans or fat black female gay and trans or whatever the fuck) an all-important problem to which the great needs of the human race must be subordinate.
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 No.306929

>>306928
>>306895
Forgot to link the post
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 No.306995

File: 1623221792293.jpeg (835.21 KB, 1904x796, t45645645.jpeg)

>>306311
>Tumblr rhetoric
>Anarchist

Every time.
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 No.307067

>>306746
>i havent seen anyone talk about what underlies idpol.
>It's not just that companies pander to certain identities.
Have you considered the possibility that marketing could have a psychological effect on people.
You can't deny the similarities between idpol and those brands that people identify with.
Maybe Identity politics has privatized politics by making it into a commodity that panders to the particularities of people.
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 No.307072

>>305951
It's because lower class people are too attached to things like churches and kings and they needed cultural Marxism to get the lower class away from that stuff.
https://nypost.com/2021/05/06/what-critical-race-theory-is-really-about/
>>305951
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 No.307076

File: 1623224709511.jpg (21.79 KB, 483x695, 1458907956170.jpg)

>>307072
>muh cultural marxism
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 No.307181

>>306763
>We already have internationalism for that
women are my favourite kind of foreigner
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 No.307254

>>306498
>if you define it as peoples personal feelings then it never will
Well that's the main difference between our sides here. Because people do want to change that, while people like you want to dismiss that. I think if you weren't part of the normative demographic you would be less inclined to chalk it up with "eh, will always exist so who cares".
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 No.307262

>>306896
>>306900
I'm obviously trolling, you idiot. Of course I realize a revolution is a state of war. I just think it's funny how people are running out of ideas about what to do with the idpol people so they go "uhh.. . well… let's just shoot 'em!" LOL. Maybe that'll work but, uh, I dunno
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 No.307282

File: 1623237165451.jpg (226.6 KB, 871x819, IMG_20210204_012558.jpg)

idpol was created by the white western ruling class, to prevent the same religious conflicts in Europe to continue in the settler state America. This is also the reason why America was one of the first state to implement the first amendement of freedom of religion, because they knew that creating a religious state would only import the same religious conflict that destabilized Europe for centuries and would make the settler project alot more difficult, dividing the settlers among religious lines, and preventing class collaboration. It also created an idea of "white Lineage" instead of the feudal and aristocratic bloodlines.

Never wondered how it is so strange that for decennia the West was occupied with wars and conflict ideologically justified by religion?
>British vs Irish
>British vs Scotts
>British vs France
>France vs German
>Polish vs Russian
>Spanish vs British
>Spanish vs Portuguese

All these wars were ideologically justified by religion. But suddenly when these Europeans cross the Ocean and set foot in America all Become ""white brothers""? Where an Irish man can join hand with a British man because both were ""white"". Were a Frenchmen and German cooperate, because "white brothers have to look out for eachother" and mutual benefit? This class collaboration was only possible thanks to the identity politics of "the White civilized settlers" vs "non-white uncivilized natives and slaves".

TL;DR: Any idiot like Aimee Theroid, Angie Speaks, who completely reject Idpol because "muh class must be first" is just perpetuating white idpol, since it is the ruling ideology and ideologically the foundation of America and the west and used to reproduce and justify its social relations. Preventing talking about """IDPOL""" is just leaving untouched the concept of "white" which thus can be used for class collaboration. The best way to explain it is that "white race" is a religion, and thus has to be treated as such. Class interest must be primary, and bourgeois ideas like "white race" must be eliminated among communists and the masses. This can only be done by critiquing and exposing the lies about "white western race" and destroying them with historical and scientific facts. Aka this means to engage in, what most western """"Marxists"""" would call: "identity politics". I am not talking about Liberal Idpol who just take the concept of "white race; western civilization" and turn it upside down thus recreating race realism and social chauvinism but in the opposite sense, again creating a tool for class collaboration. I am talking about a Marxist critique of the standard western white idpol, using historical materialism to blow up its foundation and exposing its bourgeois roots.
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 No.307292

The guy that made the Buck Breaking movie claims that black comedians get canceled more than whites because of homophobia they supposedly engage in. And that the LGBTQ is weaponized against blacks to scold anyone who opposes the white supremacist system. Recently there's also been discourse going on about toxic masculinity in black communities which coincidentally comes when people have been starting to question the system again because of the BLM. Is this one of those examples of idpol by glowies to subvert radical movements?
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 No.307294

Idpol did.
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 No.307302

>>307254
Totally wrong, you assume that people want to have their victim-hood recognized. You are being manipulated by the bourgeois system, porky can handle victims, that's people who declare that they can't change the status quo. Porky can't handle an alternative that displays the power to enact real change.
The other anon >>306498
has it right:
<It doesnt matter if jim hates bob if jim cant do anything about it
That's exactly what oppressed people want, to be powerful enough that it doesn't matter what you or anybody else thinks about them.

If you have a prejudice against me, that's your problem. If you can act based on that prejudice, that's my problem. It should be obvious by now to you that capitalism creates a class society that makes it possible to act on prejudices, and that's the real problem. Prejudices reproduce them self because class society is based on oppression and it is easier to oppress if you have prejudices.
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 No.307312

>>306928
>This is a good point and it underscores the essential decadence of the idpol movement and thought process. It engages in this constant process of discrimination in which ever finer categories of narcissistic self-identification are reified and made into all important political hills to die on.
I agree but I think we should just break it down to the very basics. Revolutions require sacrifices and selflessness. An injury to one is an injury to all. For a revolution to be successful, the revolutionaries have to be able to put aside their own individual business and fight for others to transform society and themselves. It's a heroic act, but also not individualistic.

>Someone who makes being fat or whatever the existential core of their politics is beyond useless, they are actively harmful to any meaningful development.

I feel like you're describing a similar thing, that people are putting themselves into little individualized silos. But there was something Huey P. Newton said about gay people at the time, where he said some comrades thought they couldn't be revolutionaries. But he said, "how do I know? I don't understand everything about them, but maybe they can be the most revolutionary.: Maybe a fat person (or whoever) can be the most revolutionary. That's a different way of thinking about it, that I think is very good, where he puts his own individual whatever-ness to the side and brings up others, that anyone who is with the people can be heroes, finding the heroic quality in people whom you wouldn't normally think of as heroes or revolutionaries.
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 No.307327

>>307292
The fact that memes about it are being shilled so heavily in the /pol/ glowfarm makes me think, probably.
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 No.307333

>>307292
>Is this one of those examples of idpol by glowies to subvert radical movements?
It could glow, they might just be racist, but it's hard to tell. It would be costly to find out, and it's destructive either way, so the energies should be focused on figuring out a defense. It might be time to declare it as identitarian oppression.
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 No.307335

>>307292
>>307327
>>307333
If I was in a conspiratorial mood, I would probably say the movie itself is probably just meant to act as subversive idpol to attempt to create division.
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 No.307345

File: 1623240817942.png (631.35 KB, 1263x664, were_at_a_boiling_point.png)

Idpol is not something you can properly define because it is often contextual to the situation - its placing the onus on identity rather than material conditions within certain contexts. Its inverse of course is the idea of "class reductionism" - something that only exists conceptually a lot of the time but there does exist a number of vulgar marxists who attempt to use it.

So for example, lets say gay people. As an example, gay people in the US have had discrimination in the job market for a long time, and still does in many places in the US. The material reason for why is of course that the social beliefs of the US bouj precluded gay people from being accepted within society because their cultural beliefs are downstream of the psuedo-christian Protestantism that is the progenitor of modern US culture.
Of course the idpol understanding of this scenario might be
>gay people don't get the jobs because they are lazy bums who enjoy looking at their co-worker's asses more than actually working
and the class reductionist understanding might be
<gay people have less representation in the workforce because they are part of the petite-bourgeoisie
Usually, class reductionist narratives like this tend to rely on their own cultural preconceptions in the same way that idpol does - just, with a vulgar materialist lingo applied. Cuba was for a time one such country where homosexuality was believed to be a bourgeois decadence - an artificial lifestyle developed out of the conditions of capitalist living, until further research and social sciencing in Cuba proved it to be wrong, to which Castro backtracked the policy of imprisoning homosexuals and shifted the country towards LGBTQ+ acceptance.

This example also shows that the proper materialist line is not always a purely material one - as was said by Marx and further codified by Lenin, society exists with its material base and social superstructure, and both influence each other. While it is tempting to believe solely in the material base of things, social discrimination and stratification inevitably do lead to material consequences, and as such social conditions have to be considered within a materialist perspective. Has a certain social bias elevated or lowered a group of people in the material hierarchy of things? A good example of this is apartheid states like Israel or South Africa, where social restrictions on Palestinians/blacks lead to losses of material opportunities and capacity which made them a poor underclass to be exploited by their apartheid masters. In most all capitalist countries you can usually find at least one but usually a group of people who are socially disadvantaged which has lead to their material subjugation as an underclass.

As such, it is not necessarily idpol to have considerations for people's social characteristics, as long as you can reasonably prove those social characteristics have lead to differing forms of material inequality. As was said by Engles himself:
Marx and I are ourselves partly to blame for the fact that the younger people sometimes lay more stress on the economic side than is due to it. We had to emphasise the main principle vis-à-vis our adversaries, who denied it, and we had not always the time, the place or the opportunity to give their due to the other elements involved in the interaction. But when it came to presenting a section of history, that is, to making a practical application, it was a different matter and there no error was permissible. Unfortunately, however, it happens only too often that people think they have fully understood a new theory and can apply it without more ado from the moment they have assimilated its main principles, and even those not always correctly. And I cannot exempt many of the more recent "Marxists" from this reproach, for the most amazing rubbish has been produced in this quarter, too….
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1890/letters/90_09_21.htm

Since idpol and "class reductionism" are so functionally similar, I will consolidate them to talk about this last bit. Idpol exists in a few different manifestations rather than just being one form of expression, it is used in different ways to dull consciousness and sew dissent and division between the proletariat.
It can manifest as:
Systematic, where it is used as a mode of characterization of a people to either ascribe intrinsic qualities to them or excuse facts of that group by virtue of a shared identity. Systematic idpol is often used by political groups of government organizations to demonize or lionize different identity groups to suit their political agendas, and often to carry out some material agenda to subjugate certain peoples as an underclass and sometimes marginally materially elevate their political base by said labor. Apartheid states are a very easy to understand example of this.
Interpersonal, where idpol identities are used to characterize interactions between people - usually made as a way to have other people express deference or loathing towards a certain identity group through ingrained social actions. This is usually more a personalized form of expression of systematic idpol, but it can exist independent from it, a good example being tumblerinas which expect undue social deference being given towards minority groups because of their oppression - sometimes called "the progressive stack".
Hierarchical, where identities promote certain social hierarchies based on socially held ranks of said identities. Again, usually co-dependent on systematic idpol but can exist independent of it. A good example of this is """race sciences""" which promote a certain hierarchy of humanity, usually justified on the basis of "inherent intelligence" of a given race structured so that the supposed "smartest races" are put above the "dumbest races".

All of these expressions of idpol can exist concurrently and co-dependently of one another, but also independently of each other, depending on the social structures. Most regimes which enforce an idpol agenda, however, tend to utilize all 3 to make sure that idpol is cemented in all layers of life - social, material, interpersonal, ect. Understanding these different expressions of idpol is important because they all are meant to divide the proletariat between different angles, and often it is so immersed within the societal experience of proles that they can hold these expressions without even realizing what it is. Each different form of expression has to be fought in different ways, often contextually dependent on what idpols it is trying to promote as well. This is where there can't be any one-size-fits-all anti-idpol approach, but rather well-honed instincts and material analysis which dissects the nature of how idpol is being used to divide the proletariat and how that idpol is unjustly affecting other proles.
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 No.307356

>>307302
It's not either or. Obviously prejudice people must be stripped of their power to not be able to exert the prejudice in a significant way, but you are wrong to assume that this means that prejudice is then limited to thought alone, just because they can't lynch someone or withhold career positions from others. It can still manifest in harmful ways socially, which has an impact on the social lives and psychology of people.

>you assume that people want to have their victim-hood recognized. You are being manipulated by the bourgeois system,

Please shut the fuck up. Some people here have their person experience and the ones of friends and family to derive from. Jesus Christ you are so silly. I know of the experiences of a Latina whose parents always told her to not let the racism they sometimes experience in day to day situations not get to her. But she, the daughter, noticed that her parents were in fact upset when such things happened. They would be more irritated, annoyed, down, whatever. This realization came to her when some racist white guy yelled racist slurs at them and her parents were still made upset by it in subtle ways. You do not know how frustrating it is when you make experiences with racism, you tell white people about it, and their impulse is to play it down or to ignore it. "You assume people want their victim-hood recognized," kill yourself you autist, that is a relevant issue as well.
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 No.307360

Idpol: you can criticize everyone and anyone except troons.
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 No.307361

>>307345
>Of course the idpol understanding of this scenario might be
>>gay people don't get the jobs because they are lazy bums who enjoy looking at their co-worker's asses more than actually working
What? Not at all. The IdPol understanding would be that people are bigoted towards gay people, because they think of them as repulsive or sinful and that such attitudes should be revoked through acceptance.

>So for example, lets say gay people. As an example, gay people in the US have had discrimination in the job market for a long time, and still does in many places in the US. The material reason for why is of course that the social beliefs of the US bouj precluded gay people from being accepted within society because their cultural beliefs are downstream of the psuedo-christian Protestantism that is the progenitor of modern US culture.

This is true, but it doesn't explain why the bourgeoisie has those beliefs. What is the material explanation for that?
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 No.307367

>>307361
thinking that homosexuality is repulsive, sinful, etc, is just as much idpol as liberals thinking that everything is down to individual prejudices.
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 No.307372

>>307361
>The IdPol understanding would be that people are bigoted towards gay people, because they think of them as repulsive or sinful and that such attitudes should be revoked through acceptance.
Those are both idpol'd understandings - it is looking at the objective material conditions of gay people and parsing why it exists through an idpol'd lens.
>but it doesn't explain why the bourgeoisie has those beliefs
The personal reason is likely that they were just brought up in such an environment.
The material reason as to why such an environment exists is that capitalism tends to reward ruthless and oppressive behavior since subjugation is a very good way to create permanent underclasses which can be exploited for labor - a good example being the Latin Americans in the US. Those people who hold these beliefs and act on them are more materially successful than those who do not, and thus they accumulate loads of capital and pass it down to their children, who hold the same beliefs as their parents, and then unto their children, and so on. A kind of capitalist sieving of cultural expressions to promote the most useful ones for capitalism's purposes.
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 No.307374

>>307367
Yes, it is idpol. I wasn't saying it wasn't.
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 No.307378

>>307361
>>307372
Read "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism"
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 No.307387

>>307372
>capitalism tends to reward ruthless and oppressive behavior since subjugation is a very good way to create permanent underclasses
I agree with you on that, but that diverts from your initial explanation that was linked to Christianity, doesn't it? Isn't the origins for such a belief regarding homosexuality tied to Abrahamic religions who demonized homosexuality and therefore the material explanation is not in regards to capitalism, since that didn't exist when Abrahamic religions like Christianity came to be. I am not educated on that specifically, but I'd assume it has something to do with women and men, heterosexual couples, being more useful as a means of reproducing and spreading the belief of a religion, than homosexuals, who don't get children on their own. One would want their religion to spread as much as possible, because with it comes the legitimacy and power of the attached religious institutions, who can govern and accumulate wealth as well. Just speculation on my part right now.
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 No.307388

I'm at work right now, weeping at all your fucking idpolers.

Fuck off back to /pol/ and /r/socialism. This is a leftist board.
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 No.307399

>>307378
Already read it, actually. Its not so applicable today because the prods have mutated off into 2 different directions: One the people more on the evangelical side of things that use oppression and their material advantages as an excuse to their superiority, basically a warped version of predestination, which they use to justify all of their excesses. The other is the more traditionally protestant people who extol the mannerisms of the faith and the recognition of strife as a way to be penitent for their position in life and extol the virtues of suffering while never moving to end suffering, as they have come to see suffering as a virtue itself. The former, of course, is the American conservative right, and the latter is the American liberals.
>>307387
Something important to understand that modern American religion is not even really religion anymore, there is no spirituality or belief in things greater than one's self - rather, it is the encapsulation of all things in the context of the self, the projecting of the self towards all things to make the totality of the systems all understood through a personal lens. Basically, the atomization of the idea of the greater whole into a world in which there is only individualism. No system truly exists, its just all individual actors. I'd hardly even call it Christianity anymore, it is more a kind of vulgar worship of capitalism through the aspects of Christ and God. Trying to understand it through a theological tradition of the Protestant Churches is impossible, its just too far gone to really be considered contiguous with Protestantism.
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 No.307406

>>307388
>I'm at work right now, weeping at all your fucking idpolers.
Worker weeping about the struggles from other workers, = SOLIDARITY
>Fuck off back to /pol/ and /r/socialism. This is a leftist board.
Hey, yes I live in the west, and we never had a succesfull revolution, unlike those "non-white" barbarians. Hmm, it definitely hasn't anything to do that I live in the imperial core that has all kind of ideological tools are created and used to facilitate class collaboration. And which I refuse to dismantle because "duuuuh IDPOL ", we need to focus purely on class. Yes I am very smart
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 No.307409

>>307406
Written by soy
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 No.307411

>>307409
Yeah, because chad is when you refuse to destroy the ideas that facilitates collaboratione with the capitalist class
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 No.307414

>>306311
Intersectionality is trash and you're a lib. No I won't elaborate further. Read the thread. In fact, ctrl+F for "intersectionality" because there are already good posts here about the subject.

>>306995
Most of us don't use flags because we're not obsessed with larping like tankies, but let's try to stay on topic.
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 No.307422

>>307414
>Intersectionality is trash and you're a lib.
<I reject ideas completely because they have been touched and recuperated by the ruling class, it is not that I study them, apply them to a violent Marxist critique and reject that which isn't historically materialist and keep that which is useful, yes I am very smart
DSA call themselves Socialists and Marxists, you also gonna reject socialism now because libs touched and twisted their ideas?
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 No.307426

So, okay, the first parts seem to have at least some historically valid shit in them, but the later segments go into shit, that if the documentary were not created by a black person would probably have polcels call it super le based and redpilled.

This shit is hilarious honestly.
>globohomo feminist plot against the black family
>secret pedophilia sects of elite white supremacists
>complaints about the soy and "estrogenization" of black men
>white eugenist conspiracy against the blacks
There's also a segment that says that the feds sought to deliberately promote homosexuality in black communities, with a government document cited.

Not even all of the stuff is that improbable to be true, because the capitalists and glowies definitely do go to very depraved levels to protect their interests, but, once again, this is what happens when one can't material analysis.
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 No.307492

>>307422
Intersectionality is flawed in its foundations, not because it has been co-opted by liberals (it's lib to begin with). Not going to retype the arguments made elsewhere ITT.
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 No.307511

>>307181
<We already have internationalism for that
>women are my favourite kind of foreigner
Women have always been highly active and militant in the worker's movement.
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 No.307532

>>307406
>Worker weeping about the struggles from other workers, = SOLIDARITY
First of all, you stupid fuck, intersectionality DOES NOT MEAN SOLIDARITY. Second, retarded ingrate, virtue signaling online IS NOT SOLIDARITY. Thirdly, folic acid deficient slurpy chugger, your retarded ideas are ACTIVELY HARMFUL to these workers you're crying about. And finally, US educated individual, carrying workers on your back reeks of white guilt and disgusting liberalism.
>>307406
>You live in the imperial core
I do not, piece of shit. And it shows that you do, because you wouldn't be crying about how workers are oppressed because they can't use their preferred gender bathrooms in park, you'd be FUCKING FURIOUS that people are talking about that shit when your countrymen, and especially comrades, are being killed by government and non governmental paramilitaries. Your disgusting american liberal white mentality reeks so much I can smell it over the decaying bodies of my comrades.
>And which I refuse to dismantle because "duuuuh IDPOL ", we need to focus purely on class. Yes I am very smart
Keep making it clear you have no idea what you're talking about. Stop insulting the people outside your fucking death cult machine that you call your country and read the fucking articles linked in this thread.
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 No.307713

>>307356
>It's not either or. Obviously prejudice people must be stripped of their power to not be able to exert the prejudice in a significant way, but you are wrong to assume that this means that prejudice is then limited to thought alone, just because they can't lynch someone or withhold career positions from others.

Socialists should never pander to careerists, they will always betray us, like the intelligentsia in the late Soviet Union. And the other error you make is stripping power from individuals, that is not what socialism is about. We are about changing systems, not changing individuals. You will never have a class society without prejudices no matter how many racists or other baddies you cancel. Because class society has to oppress people and prejudices like racism are just too good at that. If there is a class society and you cancel racists, they will take over your cancel mechanism and they will accuse you of racism while they them self do racist actions. They will punch you in the face with a fist and then sue you for mutilating their fist and say that it was meant as a racist hate crime.

Sorry for the rant i got side tracked a bit. Once we have a economic system without classes, prejudices loose their material basses for reproduction, because you no longer need oppressors for whom prejudices are a helpful trait. The other side of the coin is empowering people on a personal and collective level to make it very hard and very dangerous for those that want to make other people a victim. Racism strikes against easy pray, and if you do not ensure that people are too powerfull to be easy pray you are complicit in racism. If you make people powerful enough to negate racism they become too powerful to be exploited by capitalism, that's why capitalism will never be an ally.

Socialism will deliver on the power to negate racism, and we will continue the ideological battle against subdividing people into races, we have science and biology on our side, but this will not be an easy fight, prepare for a long battle.

>Please shut the fuck up.

>deflecting with a personal story
This is what right wingers do when they loose an argument, they make an emotional appeal that is packaged in a personal story. Are you a crypto right winger ? i've never seen a leftist do that.
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 No.307763

>>307345
>Since idpol and "class reductionism" are so functionally similar
the ideological fabrication of "class reductionism" is like idpol in the sense that the neoliberals invented it to disenfranchise Marxists.

When they say "class reductionist" they mean Marxist.
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 No.307807

>>307492
>it's lib to begin with
Critical Race Theory is leftist, not liberal. Intersectionality is a concept within critical race theory created by Kimberlé Crenshaw in the 1980s, after she had studied Critical Theory at Columbia University. Critical Race Theory is an outgrowth of Critical Theory which derived from the ideas of early Marxist thinkers such as Horkheimer and Lukacs.

Capital and White privilege are two sides of the same coin. One cannot fight capitalism without fighting institutional white supremacy.
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 No.307820

>>307406
Respond, coward. I want you to tell me that you'll read and stop saying stupid liberal shit, and top of that, I'd love if you stopped being a smug lib, had a modicum of humility and actually engaged with people instead of accusing them of being american (projection).
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 No.307827

>>307492
>Intersectionality is flawed in its foundations, not because it has been co-opted by liberals (it's lib to begin with)
Because it's idealist to redefine class as an identity, Class contradiction exist even when workers do not identify as such. Intersectionality fetishise false consciousness.
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 No.307840

>>307807
>Capital and White privilege are two sides of the same coin. One cannot fight capitalism without fighting institutional white supremacy.

Wrong. Fighting capitalism is fighting all forms of racial supremacy. Focusing on racial politics is a tool used by the ruling class to distract from class struggle
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 No.307870

>>307840
>Fighting capitalism is fighting all forms of racial supremacy.
You do realize that supremacy ideology from other "races" is next to non-existent correct? And please don't respond by naming me 1 backwards uyghur who thinks blacks are actually the superior race, that practically doesn't exist and isn't worth mentioning. To pretend that these concepts, attitudes and power relationships are all equally present is moronic. I don't agree with the person you replied with anyway, but this "all forms of racial supremacy" response is just as stupid at saying "both sides", when talking about Charlottesville or Antifa or some shit.
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 No.307878

>>307807
If it came from a university professor, she still has a job, and her brainlet theory is being taught in every university in the country, it's not "leftist."
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 No.307879

>>307870 (me)
PS: The person you replied to is correct insofar that the concept of "whiteness" does play a role. Not in a transcendental essentialist sense, but in the current societal configuration, given its historic context and the current relationship of white people to wealth and the superstructure.
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 No.307898

>>307870
>You do realize that supremacy ideology from other "races" is next to non-existent correct?
This doesn't counter anything though

>To pretend that these concepts, attitudes and power relationships are all equally present is moronic

No one argued this though.

>don't agree with the person you replied with anyway, but this "all forms of racial supremacy" response is just as stupid at saying "both sides"

wheres the lie all forms of racial supremacy today are a result of the current mode of production
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 No.307923

>>307870
>You do realize that supremacy ideology from other "races" is next to non-existent correct?
Incorrect
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 No.307929

File: 1623258671218.jpg (26.19 KB, 251x366, RDT_20210608_2231382293785….jpg)

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 No.307934

>>307929
I don't get it.
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 No.307937

>>307763
"class reductionists" is a stupid name but the idea of mitigating more realistic causes of oppression to suggest a faux-material one is something that can and does happen, and it is fundamentally anti-marxist to the point that Engles wrote about how retarded people were in applying Marxist theory and only buying into the idea of everything being purely material.
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 No.307944

>>307807
>Critical Race Theory is leftist, not liberal.
wtf are you talking about? Critical race theory is 100% liberal and not a leftist at all. It is an outgrowth of liberal legal scholars, that applied critical legal studies to race. At its foundation it is some kind of legal realism, which tries to use bourgeois idealist conceptions of law to explain racial disparities. It is explicitly non-marxist because it is not materialist. That why it has such a close affinity with deconstructionism

I think you are confusing the philosophical contributions of Fanon to colonial, critical theory and Marxism with critical RACE Theory
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 No.307950

>>307879
This. “Whiteness” is a real thing but it’s not based on any concrete racial theory. Rather whiteness is an “otherness” and distinction made generally to justify mercantile slavery. Whiteness wasn’t a thing until the rise of such slavery in the 17th century. Whiteness itself grew alongside colonialism and so destroying colonialism also means destroying whiteness. If you follow it logically, the slaves and natives were colonial subjects, to be black or brown or native or whatever would have the connotation of the subjugated standing up to the rulers and masters. This is why black power means something different to white power.

The reason idpol and the culture war is not gone because the scars of colonialism are deep and have not been resolved, and especially with capitalism you can forget about getting rid of idpol and culture wars. They could only be resolved by class war and proletarian victory.
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 No.307961

>>307923
You are right. I take that part back.
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 No.307988

>>307937
>"class reductionism" is a stupid name
No it's a bad concept, it's fundamentally anti-marxist, you must be out of your mind if you think Marx or Engels would agree with you, you even used the argument from authority fallacy the wrong way.
The neoliberals use this for a 2 faced tactic. With one face they ruthlessly use it to root out Marxists like it's a McCarthyism. But when they get caught doing that, they put on the other face and they pretend to care about secondary contradictions as cover story.
>applying Marxist theory and only buying into the idea of everything being purely material.
Yes Marxism is materialist in philosophy, and yes Marxists will not accept it if you try to impose idealist ideology on them.

"class reductionism" is a neoliberal hate-label that is used as a vector to insert capitalist class interests into socialist organizations, it's purpose is to alienate the ability of leftists organization to fight for the interests of the proletariat. You can not pretend to be a leftist if you attack socialists in this identitarian way. You are not representing oppressed people by upholding this shit, you are doing the oppressing.
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 No.307989

>>307937
But class is the one inextricable component of all forms of oppression. Even in terms of "intersectionality" to use idpol language, class is the one factor that is connected to all others. All other forms of oppression function to maintain what is effectively always and exclusively a caste or class stratified system. Racism is partly about creating a menial labor force coded by skin color, for example, and this is most explicitly apparent with racialized slavery. Even restrictions on reproductive rights for women has the goal of regulating the socioeconomic role of women to be the childbearing caste. Subtract the structural inequalities of capitalism and these issues, if not abated completely are still significantly mitigated. It is idpol that is reductionistic, unable to see the forest for the trees and instead focusing on narrow struggles which are only strands of a larger class struggle. You can't solve any of these localized problems without factoring in class.
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 No.308010

>>307988
>you must be out of your mind if you think Marx or Engels would agree with you
I'm not sure where you get that idea, you might wanna read this.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1890/letters/90_09_21.htm
There is fundamentally a basis for social phenomenon to imprint material consequences by the way of the model of base and superstructure, to abstract all material consequences of the proletariat to be solely resulting from the base of society is to ignore communist theory itself, from Marx to Engles to Lenin. The actual application of "class reductionism" is fairly marginal now but if there is a viable communist coalition in the future it will undoubtedly be used as a way to wedge the proletariat no different than idpol would be, since it obfuscates itself in materialist language.
>Yes Marxism is materialist in philosophy,
Marxism is not purely material - it openly acknowledges that the material is the dominant but only one part of the wider social construction which the movement must navigate. Every communist party has inevitably had laws regarding retrograde social policies or excised reactionary elements from the movement or what have you, because many of the social aspects of life must be accounted for to secure proletarian unity as much as material assurances. Communists have always been the vanguard of social progress in human society, as it is the bedrock of strong proletarian unity.
>>307989
You speak of these things as if they exist purely in the language of the material and class when they are social products as much as programs meant to affect certain material outcomes - you cannot cleave the social aspect of racism or sexism from its intended material affect and combat purely the material one, it also necessarily must be fought on the social level, because these forms of prejudices left alone will inevitably reproduce the same material oppressions with enough time - because the superstructure too affects the base of things. These social aspects are engineered to reinforce the material outcomes, and as such for lasting victory the war must be waged on both fronts.
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 No.308075

also if you want a better understanding of how Marx relates the social and political to the material you should probably check out The German Ideology
The fact is, therefore, that definite individuals who are productively active in a definite way enter into these definite social and political relations. Empirical observation must in each separate instance bring out empirically, and without any mystification and speculation, the connection of the social and political structure with production. The social structure and the State are continually evolving out of the life-process of definite individuals, but of individuals, not as they may appear in their own or other people’s imagination, but as they really are; i.e. as they operate, produce materially, and hence as they work under definite material limits, presuppositions and conditions independent of their will.
[The following passage is crossed out in the manuscript:] The ideas which these individuals form are ideas either about their relation to nature or about their mutual relations or about their own nature. It is evident that in all these cases their ideas are the conscious expression – real or illusory – of their real relations and activities, of their production, of their intercourse, of their social and political conduct. The opposite assumption is only possible if in addition to the spirit of the real, materially evolved individuals a separate spirit is presupposed. If the conscious expression of the real relations of these individuals is illusory, if in their imagination they turn reality upside-down, then this in its turn is the result of their limited material mode of activity and their limited social relations arising from it.
The production of ideas, of conceptions, of consciousness, is at first directly interwoven with the material activity and the material intercourse of men, the language of real life. Conceiving, thinking, the mental intercourse of men, appear at this stage as the direct efflux of their material behaviour. The same applies to mental production as expressed in the language of politics, laws, morality, religion, metaphysics, etc., of a people. Men are the producers of their conceptions, ideas, etc. – real, active men, as they are conditioned by a definite development of their productive forces and of the intercourse corresponding to these, up to its furthest forms. Consciousness can never be anything else than conscious existence, and the existence of men is their actual life-process. If in all ideology men and their circumstances appear upside-down as in a camera obscura, this phenomenon arises just as much from their historical life-process as the inversion of objects on the retina does from their physical life-process.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/german-ideology/ch01a.htm
>>

 No.308121

>>308010
>I'm not sure where you get that idea,
<The History of all Hitherto Existing Society is the history of class struggle, Karl Marx
Are you going to call Marx a reductionist too ?
>There is fundamentally a basis for social phenomenon to imprint material consequences by the way of the model of base and superstructure, to abstract all material consequences of the proletariat to be solely resulting from the base of society is to ignore communist theory itself, from Marx to Engles to Lenin.
You suck at quote mining, because this makes my point. The capitalist superstructure tries to maintain ideological hegemony and at the moment it tries to suppress class struggle with this identitarianism you are trying to push on us. Marx would have kicked you out of his book club and Lenin would have had you shot for this bastardization of Marxist theory.
>The actual application of "class reductionism"
give up making this word mean anything, it's the hate label to kick out Marxists from organizations the neolibs try to coopt with idpol
>it will undoubtedly be used as a way to wedge the proletariat no different than idpol would be
You are projecting now, you are using "class reductionism" as a wedge, you can't just accuse me of what you are doing.
>Marxism is not purely material - it openly acknowledges that the material is the dominant but only one part of the wider social construction which the movement must navigate.
This doesn't make sense. Wait are you a theorylet, that is using
material = physical and
idealist = mental
That's not what that means.
Now i don't know anymore, i thought you were a malicious neoliberal agent trying to damage this board, but i'm considering that you don't understand what materialist philosophy is. I can't also fit a philosophy crash course in this reply.
>Every communist party has inevitably had laws regarding retrograde social policies or excised reactionary elements from the movement or what have you, because many of the social aspects of life must be accounted for to secure proletarian unity as much as material assurances.
No communist party ever said that you should abandon class struggle in exchange for concessions from the bourgeoisie. The purpose of excluding Marxists (you would miss label as class reductionists) is to destroy socialist orgs with class collaborationist political lines. Don't you get it the socialists movements that won, were the ones that did not take your reactionary path. You are not defending social progress, how many time do i have to repeat this, social progress does not come in the form of political regression.
>Communists have always been the vanguard of social progress in human society, as it is the bedrock of strong proletarian unity.
It's not social progress what you are defending. You are defending reactionaries that enforce capitalist interests, what they do isn't progressive just because they invoke certain identities. Look at what they do, not just who is doing it.
>because the superstructure too affects the base of things
This does not help your case, because inventing "class reductionism" is the capitalist superstructure trying to reproduce the base of labor exploitation.
>>

 No.308136

>>308121
>Are you going to call Marx a reductionist too ?
No I'd just direct you to his own works where he says that class struggle is not just the sum of material struggle, like the German Ideology right here >>308075
<The ideas which these individuals form are ideas either about their relation to nature or about their mutual relations or about their own nature. It is evident that in all these cases their ideas are the conscious expression – real or illusory – of their real relations and activities, of their production, of their intercourse, of their social and political conduct.
<The production of ideas, of conceptions, of consciousness, is at first directly interwoven with the material activity and the material intercourse of men, the language of real life. Conceiving, thinking, the mental intercourse of men, appear at this stage as the direct efflux of their material behaviour. The same applies to mental production as expressed in the language of politics, laws, morality, religion, metaphysics, etc., of a people. Men are the producers of their conceptions, ideas, etc.
>>

 No.308139

>>308075
You left out the part where workers can have false consciousness, and that you need political theory to gain a level of insight that allows you to become class conscious. Marx wrote all his books and texts, because workers could not spontaneously know all of this. And you forget to mention that in every epoch the ruling ideas are the ideas of the ruling class. Lets make a guess, the ruling class thinks that class struggle is bad, and they spread that idea, and they can command sophisticated mental labor to do so.
>>

 No.308144

>>308139
Well I left that part out because its not particularly relevant to what I was trying to show, that being how Marx conceptualized the nature of class struggle not being purely materialist but rather dominantly material along with other considerations such as social and political, further collaborated by Engles in their correspondences as well. It's true the ruling class creates a false consciousness through the ideas and philosophies of their time, both intentional and no, but the topic of how social categories inevitably reflect themselves in the material realm is one which can be analyzed and quantified by the material method as being true, hence why Lenin made note of the fact that the superstructure does influence the base of society - as a reinforcing mechanism for the machinations of capital.

Really I don't see what you are arguing, you are kinda off in only a tangentially related topic which I think you are trying to use to imply that idpol as a whole is a false-consciousness, when idpol isn't a definite thing really. Like I said, idpol is more a situational and contextual thing, you need the correct analysis of an identity and how it affects the people to properly quantify it and address it within the movement - but to deviate from understanding how the social circumstances affect the material conditions and to instead essentialize or make vulgar materialist judgements of the class is to fall for idpol in different forms. I feel like you are kinda lost in semantics honestly.
>>

 No.308147

>>308136
For materialists ideas are material objects too, like the wall I'm banging my head against right now.
The passage you are quoting says something like brains create thought patterns based on environmental stimulus.
Marx is not endorsing idealist philosophy with this.
This is my last reply, you need to read more materialist philosophy to understand this.
>>

 No.308157

>>308147
>The passage you are quoting says something like brains create thought patterns based on environmental stimulus.
No, the passage is saying that the sum total of material production creates the basis for social relations and conceptions as a consequence of the necessarily socially collaborative structure of labor. In the German Ideology he also goes on to talk about the different human epochs like tribal relations, the slave economy, and feudalism and how their work relations through the division of labor made their societies have different social expressions from our own. This is to reinforce the primacy of how material relations are the fundamental basis for how things are shaped but that it is not the sum total of processes within society. These products of the material relationship manifests as politics, laws, morality, religion, metaphysics, ect, all of which are driving forces to how society and it's conflicts are driven, acting as smaller but relevant forces to the primary drive of conflict in civilization - class conflict.
>>

 No.308442

The youtube philosopher who dunked on Philosophy Tube made a video relevant to this topic about the philosophy of identity.

Is It Possible to Get Identity Right?
alternative title:"Philosophy of Identity: Genuine Pretending"Can we get identity right? It is a question asked by a viewer in our last video on "identity". #identity #authenticity #profilicity

We take the chance to answer some of the questions and try to address some of the interesting and important issues about identity.

A quick recap of the three concepts discussed in the last video:
1. Sincerity demands commitment to roles. The outside is real, and the inside must back it up honestly, otherwise it is considered a dishonest fake.
2. Authenticity demands the pursuit of originality. The inside is real, and the outside must be an accurate representation of it, otherwise it is considered a hypocritical facade.
3. Profilicity demands the curation of profiles. The outside is real, and the inside must be truly invested in it, otherwise it is considered a deceptive fraud.

Videos mentioned:
Identity After Authenticity: Abigail Thorn's Profile
Daoist Philosophy: Life and Death | Zhuangzi’s Butterfly Dream

Dr Hans-Georg Moeller is a professor in the Philosophy and Religious Studies Program at the University of Macau. Prof. Moeller and his colleague Prof. Paul J. D'Ambrosio wrote a book on how "profilicity" works, which is an interesting and very relatable concept, especially at today's time.
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 No.308444

>>307807
>being influenced by Marx makes you a leftist
No. Modern bourgeois economics also takes a lot from Marx.
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 No.308445

>>308442
His recent one is about wokeism. Refutes the notion of it being post modern, or cultural marxism, but rather a post-left neoliberal American civil religion. Pretty interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnUqrF9mAA8
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 No.308447

>>308442
>>308442
Everyone should just see the whole series. It's not that long and it's really good.
I don't know if he's a leftist or not, he's certainly sympathetic, but I've enjoyed all his videos a lot.

>>308445
Nice. I'm half way done his videos. I'm looking forward.
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 No.308452

Wokeness is the copium of the managers.
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 No.308456

>>308452
Also the hopium of the oppressed creature.
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 No.308488

>>308452
Wokeism is when i wake up.
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 No.308536

What truly irks me about the idpol lunacy is this idiotic "let's elect them because she's a woman!" etc mentality. I read an article about the mayoral race where I live, and there was this huge discussion about one of the female candidates and literally all she had to say was "elect me because I'd be the first woman mayor." No discussion of policies, nothing substantive: only this. There's an indescribable lunacy to such thinking, thinking which cost the Democrats the 2016 election (they ignored the fact that Clinton was a deeply unpopular candidate because she was a she) and led to the Kopmala Harris, the influence peddling mediocrity just because she's a black woman.

In a rational world anybody with the skills and right policies should be elected. This madness about voting based on identity is incredibly stupid. And it allows the status quo to sneak in their own operatives to various elections so long as they are the "first x to be y", showing how the diversity spook is manipulated by the establishment to render only cosmetic changes to the power complex without meaningfully altering its behavior.
>>

 No.308546

>>308536
Yep, and you can show how ridiculous this is by pointing to Margaret Thatcher.
Also I will plug one of these >>306112 texts again, Woman Suffrage by Emma Goldman, which goes into the same kind of lunacy. Although of course it centers around women as voters rather than women as candidates, it's a very similar phenomenon.
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 No.308616

>>307988
>"class reductionism" is a neoliberal hate-label
really wish people would stop conflating neoliberals and radlibs. ironically in so doing it winds up completely devaluing a term of economic analysis in favour of a more open ended one. (with the ultimate end result of ordinary whining about liberals getting a redundantly prepended "neo" like in the world's shittiest cyberpunk setting.)
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 No.308851

It's also worth mentioning that the whole alt-right phenomenon, incels etc, is just a logical extension and perversion of identity politics. What is white nationalism but idpol? When anything can be an identity even that you can't have sex is seen as an identification badge, a source of in-group solidarity. The result is that there is a continual pulverizing of social groupings into ever finer granular distinctions each which can only view the state of the world in terms of its own narrow problems. It's not only a game liberals play.
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 No.309307

>>308616
>really wish people would stop conflating neoliberals and radlibs.
radlibs support neoliberal economic policy and they support neoliberal regime change, when it promises to further radlib cultural values, (which are not progressive anymore). They do neoliberalism and that means they are neoliberals.
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 No.309481

>>309307
most radlibs have no conception of economic policy whatsoever. regime change tends to be the purview of neocons, not neoliberals. the great thing about the different meanings of those terms: where liberals and conservatives are usually opposites, almost all neocons are neoliberals, and a good chunk - but not all - neoliberals are neocons.

regardless, you wind up with a confusion of the inverse when you treat "radlib" and "neoliberal" as interchangable. Margaret Thatcher wasn't getting up to demand people cheer her as a feminist icon, despite being an arch-neoliberal. She would never accuse someone of being "class reductionist", which is the purview of radlibs.
>>

 No.309519

>>309307
>>309481
From what I see, radlibs don't even have to consciously support neoliberal policy, but their plan of action will always let neoliberalism win out.

If you've ever seen a radlib type in charge, the thing that they always like to focus on are "listening to voices" and "diversity" and "dialgoue" or some combination of those things. They're not necessarily bad on their own, but it's a toothless political plan for too many different reasons (disagreements within the minorities themselves, many of them don't have experience or an idea how to govern themselves, who gets chosen as the representative, is it appropriate to listen when our world is heading to a possible emergency situation, etc.,). All a neoliberal has to do is to give the appearance of backing off for a bit, let cultural inertia take over and disagreements brew, then flank these "minority voices" with their own minority representatives until radlibs are comfortably indistinguishable from regular liberals.

You see this in some of the LARPs that have happened over these past few years like with that colonized-people-only city. Radlibs can't think of a way to actually hold and keep power. Nor do they have a plan for striking at the heart of neoliberalism even if they wanted to. They don't even need to be neoliberals to support neoliberalism.
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 No.309535

File: 1623320621178.jpg (89.41 KB, 900x900, rainbowcapitalism.jpg)

>>309481
>most radlibs have no conception of economic policy whatsoever
Oh it's OK to enact brutal austerity or privatize public industry, if you don't know about economics ? How very convenient for the bourgeoisie to have a politically active group that just adopts what ever economic policy the bourgeoisie wants.
It's basically like this if you don't side with the interest of the proletariat you are an enemy to socialists, excuses to support neoliberal policies don't exist.
>regime change tends to be the purview of neocons
but radlibs have supported regime change

I don't believe you that they are all just a bunch of idiots. If you try to convince them to support socialist economics, they won't budge, they change the topic to idpol and when that doesn't work they try to get rid of you. That is not the behavior of people that don't know any better, that's the behavior of reactionaries that have decided to sell out and everybody else be damned.
>>

 No.309567

>>309535
>Oh it's OK to enact brutal austerity or privatize public industry, if you don't know about economics
radlibs don't enact brutal austerity, nobody makes a radlib treasury minister. 95% of radlibs are twitter weirdos, "influencers" and the like who have literally zero input into economic policy. only a small number of genuine radlibs ever get elected to positions above local councils, and of those almost none get into cabinets outside weird little countries like new zealand.

this is what happens when you reduce words down to meaninglessness, you start thinking that the sheep are leading the sheepdog around and that farmer liaises with the sheep directly.
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 No.309569

Marxists like to pretend that idpol is nothing but a type of analysis primarily focusing on non-class factors, but this fails to address why they themselves so often side with progressive idpol forces over reactionary ones. If idpol truly was nothing but an irrelevant diversion, then marxists would be more dispersed on topics like abortion or LGBT rights and where no one really cares either way.
Since this clearly isn't the case we can conclude that despite all their posturing marxists do not actually see class as the primary driving force behind history and it is their views on idpol that ultimately unifies them.
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 No.309571

>>309569
class first only means other issues build on it, not that they don't exist
right wing deviations are based on bad class analysis and primitive workerism that you'd otherwise see in nazis, hooligans and skinheads
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 No.309573

>>309567
building on this, since i may have lost myself in metaphor:
what is radlib about anyone in government? (say) Clinton's appeal to idpol is designed to get radlib support, but she herself lacks any kind of radicalism. she's just a liberal!
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 No.309577

>>309567
>radlibs don't enact brutal austerity,
I admit that my wording was ambiguous, but since you are going to be a stickler, i will do that too, i technically didn't say this. They cheer on neoliberal economic policy
>>309573
the radlib act as enforcers for neoliberal policy they kick out socialists that try to defend the interests of the proletariat
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 No.309582

>>309569
>marxists do not actually see class as the primary driving force behind history
yes Marxists do actually see it that way
>and it is their views on idpol that ultimately unifies them.
idpol is many things, but it is not unifying
>>

 No.309583

>>309571
>class first only means other issues build on it
That's not true. For example marxists say the traditional family structure is bourgeois, women will be "liberated" after the transcendence of capitalism and eventually relieved from their duty from the extended family. Problem is there is no way to verify or infer this and yet it is in line with the progressive idpol narrative.
>>309582
>idpol is many things, but it is not unifying
It is, actually. What divides marxists are different views on the best way to achieve communism and what unifies them is that they all share the same views on idpol.
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 No.309601

File: 1623326437462-0.jpg (49.94 KB, 500x370, gerry-adams (2).jpg)

File: 1623326437462-1.jpg (197.06 KB, 700x466, 3b950227d61e99f45697a83dcd….jpg)

File: 1623326437462-2.png (77.9 KB, 600x174, 530583405830495.png)

>>309569
>Since this clearly isn't the case we can conclude that despite all their posturing marxists do not actually see class as the primary driving force behind history and it is their views on idpol that ultimately unifies them.
I think the problem here is when you start thinking of politics as just a matter of "positions" on this or that as opposed to trusting theory enough to reason from it. I like to quote Engels who was linked earlier that the "ultimately determining element in history is the production and reproduction of real life" but it's not the only one. "We make our history ourselves, but, in the first place, under very definite assumptions and conditions. Among these the economic ones are ultimately decisive. But the political ones, etc., and indeed even the traditions which haunt human minds also play a part, although not the decisive one."

An example I'm thinking about here is Northern Ireland. Irish independence changed the economic life and political status of most people on the island, but not Catholics in Northern Ireland who remained subordinated to the British Empire and its colonial satraps, although their political status did change with the Good Friday Agreement after a bloody, decades-long political conflict. But Brexit has kind of messed this up, because one of the conditions of the GFA was to open up the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, which was jeopardized by Brexit which would require violating the GFA, causing hostilities to resume. So, the British are putting the customs barrier in the Irish Sea instead, which means the political status of Northern Ireland remains the same, but economically can you even really say that it's part of the United Kingdom at this point?

The economic base shifts, which will eventually lead to a rearrangement of the political superstructure, the unification of Ireland (I'm pretty sure anyways). Because the economic base is decisive.

Now political ideas and religious ideas have their influence on the course of events, and like Engels said, "in many cases preponderate in determining their form." One of the forms this conflict manifested was between Catholics and Protestants. But what distinguishes us from liberals is that they like to reduce the conflict to that. Or like "Israel vs. Palestine," the conflict is reduced to either just a racial problem or a religious problem. They've been fighting each other for thousands of years! Herp derp. forgetting that this conflict is actually pretty modern and essentially dominated by politics, and therefore, by economics. Why do the Marxists always side with the Catholics in Norther Ireland!? It's not on the basis of religion, but because the British occupation of Ireland was a political act which subordinated them to a colonized second-class status, as was the Israeli occupation of Palestine, which altered the "production and reproduction of real life" that Engels was talking about. If it was solely about religion, then we'd take the "Catholic side" everywhere, but that's not the real basis for the conflict in the first place – that's a form, unique to Ireland's particular circumstances. And while the political gains by Irish republicans in the late 20th century were limited, they did open up a new period in their history, and that cleared the way for their political and social emancipation, from a long-term historical perspective.

If that didn't happen, whose fault would it be? There was a lot of money to be made in cheap, exploitable labor in Ireland by the British ruling classes – for centuries.

By the way, Marx came to basically write off the English working class as hopelessly reactionary and that they wouldn't make much progress until they got rid of Ireland. So, if you take that long-term view, class struggle is indeed the motor force of history.
>>

 No.309608

>>

 No.309609

>>309569
>Since this clearly isn't the case we can conclude that despite all their posturing marxists do not actually see class as the primary driving force behind history and it is their views on idpol that ultimately unifies them.
Also, I feel it's very important to stress here that the Marxist view of class as the primary driving force of history is like a historical law – from the Marxists' point of view – and this is believed to be true regardless of what anyone thinks about the opinions of the people involved or positions on this or that, which overall have taken many different forms over the course of thousands of years of class struggle. We don't even have the option of transferring it somewhere else.
>>

 No.309701

>>309583
>It is, actually. What divides marxists are different views on the best way to achieve communism
maybe that's a fair assessment
>and what unifies them is that they all share the same views on idpol.
Well there might be unity in disliking idpol, but that's not what you meant to say.

Idpol is divisive, because it splits the proletariat into different groups. And id-pol-identities are class collaborationist in the sense that a capitalist can have the same identity as a worker, but workers have different identities.
The Marxists that hold socially progressive views, would not agree with radlib social views. Radlibs have more in common with social conservatives, who think that race and sexual identities are very important. That is sort of suspect to Marxists because that could all just be capitalist culture.
Marxists will tell you that social and cultural values will be shaped by the mode of economic production and social reproduction of a society.
Socialism would create a materialist social value system that is based on a more scientific trial process for finding out what kind of rules for living together have the best results. I can't tell you what that looks like but ostracizing behavior and psychological violence would not become a social convention in a materialist culture. Radlibs are not sincere when they talk about abolishing oppression, because their praxis suggest otherwise. https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/exiting-vampire-castle/
>>

 No.310312

>>309569
Those "marxists" steeped in idpol propaganda are pseudo-left fake marxists. Orthodox marxism rejects political idealism.
>>

 No.310336

>>309519
>If you've ever seen a radlib type in charge, the thing that they always like to focus on are "listening to voices" and "diversity" and "dialgoue"
The class factor of this dynamic cannot be discounted. It is always the "voices" of the upper middle class social climbers listened to, it is only "diversity" within this well-off cohort that matters, it is only "dialogue" between those who stand to profit from this arrangement. Lower working class minorities for example could care less about these issues, they want to not be poor, to fix the problems in their communities. What do they care about "inclusion" and all these empty buzzwords. Include more money into their wallets. Include functioning public education. Include safer neighborhoods.

So the self-interested class character of radlib priorities is the driving principle of their entire platform.
>>

 No.310344

>>309569
>If idpol truly was nothing but an irrelevant diversion, then marxists would be more dispersed on topics like abortion or LGBT rights and where no one really cares either way.
This doesn't make sense and I think this can only come from fundamentally misunderstanding what idpol is. Also, even by your own definition of idpol, being anti-idpol would not result in being dispersed on certain topics, it be refusing the dicotomy to begin with.
>Since this clearly isn't the case we can conclude that despite all their posturing marxists do not actually see class as the primary driving force behind history and it is their views on idpol that ultimately unifies them.
This also doesn't make sense. You can see class conflict as the primary driving force behind history while also having certain social views. These aren't in contradiction.
>>

 No.313034

Nothing personal hamburgers but It's mostly an american thing. And I'd be cool with it if this cancer didn't spread itself all over the place. The western left got infiltrated by american agents and useful idiots. They installed various elitist, pseudo-intellectual and lgbt groups to cause distortion and confusion. There is nothing the washington imperialists fear more than angry wagecucks of all colours united under a single flag ready to crush the porky. There's a reason the white house was trigger happiest during the cold war, a period when the world was closest to total annihilation. Smarten up.
>>

 No.313697

>>313655
How about if we're going to weaponize idpol against the ruling class, instead of targeting them over the various other identities they might or might not be, we be classist and treat them badly for being ruling class (which is to say, do class struggle but frame it as identitarian).
>>

 No.313708

>>313697
>but frame it as identitarian
The conservative movement?
>>

 No.313709

>>313655
how come every single post made by a leftcom is always retarded?
>>

 No.313721

>>313697
>do class struggle but frame it as identitarian
what you do mean with this , can you give an example ?
>>

 No.313724

>>313709
because one retard uses the leftcom flag and says the dumbest shit constantly, in like half the threads
>>

 No.313726

>>313655
The biggest problem with that is that it will hurt non-bourgeois members more than the bourgeoisie themselves. The latter can sit back and take a small hit to their profits or step down from public positions but still be well off. The former will be socially ostracized, will find it difficult to get a job, and will always be much more vulnerable to spontaneous outbreaks of idpol violence.

The bourgeoisie if anything is positioned in a way that they have the proletariat as human shields. From sending them to wars or taking the fall for their mistakes. Even the liberal "vote with your wallet" thing usually means that workers lose their livelihoods while the bourgeoisie can take a dip in profits for some time before they fold and actually get hurt by it. I don't know how many people are necessary sacrifices for a revolution, but I doubt that idpol will do it.

What did the whole anti-white, anti-heteronormative, anti-whatever-the-ruling-class-happens-to-be do over the last decade? Woke businessmen and socially alienated reactionaries who bought into the /pol/ shit out of spite at being called the villains of history. It almost doesn't matter if it's right, because neoliberal capitalism still stands.
>>

 No.313731

>>313721
say marxist shit but use the idpolers' lingo
>the bourgeois have class privilege and use systems of oppression to keep the proletariat poor and confined to outsider communities
>discrimination against the poor and working class is systemic - you are much less likely to be found not guilty in court, to get necessary loans e.g. for your home, or to have opportunities available if you are poor or working class
>the chains on the proletariat are invisible because they have become ingrained into our culture, and we have to unpack all the ways bourgeois privilege harms the poor and working people

>>313708
no lol
>>

 No.314130

>>313731
>workers of the world unite and seize the means of privilege
It sounds interesting, on the one hand you can back-scold the woke brigades to check their privileges, but on the other you are just one more voice in the crab bucket of the oppressed that screams about privilege. You have to compete for the same political resources as all the other oppressions.
>>

 No.316958

does this thread
https://www.leftypol.org/leftypol/res/316901.html
count as an idpol thread ?
>>

 No.316977

>>316974
Point on the doll where the anarcho-troon hurt you, anon.
>>

 No.316995

>>316983
I’m not a trap you schizo.
>>

 No.317013

>>316974
yeah yeah we all know you're very based timmy.
>>

 No.317074

>>314130
Yeah but if you actually get to talk about class it becomes clear how much more significant it is than the others. The crabs in a bucket thing works while class is sidelined because the others don't exist in any clear hierarchy of priority.
>>

 No.317175

>>317086
I think it’s because these ‘Marxists’ have conflated the social politics of their liberal circle of peers as ‘revolutionary’ without a single shred of self-awareness.
>>

 No.317217

>>317086
Social conservatism isn't 'anti-idpol'
>>

 No.317318

>>317086
>NOOOO YOU HAVE TO SUPPORT BIGOTRY IF LIBERALS ARE ANTI-BIGOTRY
Are you retarded? Y/N?
>>

 No.317323

>>317318
You are just proving my point.
>>

 No.317324

>>317086
>Yes, but this fails to explain why the social views of every marxist are practically identical.
The reason for this is that social politics is a product of material forces and economics, and our positions on these issues is a product of that. It's not the realm of "muh opinion" or whatever. It's something you can understand concretely and determine logically and scientifically.
>>

 No.317339

>>317324
>social politics is a product of material forces and economics, and our positions on these issues is a product of that
This doesn't make any actual sense. It requires that all marxists share the same socio-economic relations with other progressives yet no overlap whatsoever with non-progressives. By todays standards marxists of the 1950 would be classified today as crypto-fascists or reactionary. What similarieties do they shared with the people who say this today? Not to mention that this is a meaningless """analysis""" without any actual descriptions of the forces you talk about.
>It's something you can understand concretely and determine logically and scientifically
Science can't determine morality and logic depends axioms.
>>

 No.317448

>>317339
Marxism is also a philosophy of science. If you deny the advancements of science, you're a retard, eg LGBT being basically something you don't choose (not sure what you're bitching about tbh). It also understands the movement of society as being mostly about class dynamics. LGBT struggles and their successes at mostly no longer being killed/imprisoned in the first world must be understood under the lens of class struggle, because they were working class movements.

The fact that they are recuperated does not mean that they don't have a class character inherent in them. It's as if saying that racism doesn't exist anymore or is no longer relevant because Obama was black, meanwhile black people are massively oppressed. Racism and anti-racism have a class character too. Even racism against Obama has the same class character. Inb4 you cry because Obama is not working class, the racism itself has class character.
>>

 No.317501

>>317448
>Even racism against Obama has the same class character
Explain?
>>

 No.317531

>>317448
>You don't choose to transhumanistify yourself on discord by watching porn all day
They deserve respect but come on
>>

 No.317539

>>317531
Coomer, here, never have I once had the desire to become trans, even though I do fap to the occasional MtF or even Femboy.
>>

 No.317551

>>317501
Racism is just an expression of anti poor sentiments projected on skin colour.
Bad smell and hygiene, stupidity, and so on.
Obama is a murderous imperialist, the racism is a distraction away from him being a capitalist tool and instead towards race which is attributed with negative images of the exploited, based on slavery and poverty. It's schizophrenic in its expression, but that's capitalism for you.
>>

 No.317558

>>317551
You’re right, I haven't thought about it that way, but racism really is just projecting class relations and stereotypes as an essentialist heritage thing.
>>

 No.317641

>>317448
You are missing the point. The important part is that despite it's proposed irrelevance views on idpol (like stances on LGBT) are uniform across marxists disciplines. You say this is because of "class anylsis", but really this is just nonsensical cope since 1) class is at best only tangentially related to idpol and 2) no marxists is conducting an actual analysis into his respective stance on idpol beyond thinking it's more or less the "moral" thing to support.
>>317551
>Racism is just an expression of anti poor sentiments
By that standard jews and asians should be immune to racism. Racism originates from tribalism and that's about it.
>>

 No.317652

>>317641
Name me the racist stereotype and i will point out its class character. It is always based on class.
>>

 No.317658

>>317641
>By that standard jews and asians should be immune to racism.
Just completely wrong.
Antisemitism is largely based on their historical involvement in banking. What do these racist stereotypes have to do with any given jews actual class? Nothing.
Your problem is further that you have a very narrow view on things limited to current afairs. Learn some history.
>>

 No.318077

>>317652
What about "black women are ugly"?
>>

 No.318219

>>318077
Slave owners and their bitches had a tendency to be rather white. They set beauty standards. It follows that the slave class is perceived as ugly, deprived of self care products.
>>

 No.318248

>>317641
ay no Jesucristo! he's retarded.
I hope you drop your retarded ideas and start applying marxism properly.
>>

 No.318352

Hello I am here to be deradicalized
I heard you guys don't like shitlibs either
>>

 No.318510

>>318219
>They set beauty standards
1) Beauty standards aren't "set".
2) Asians see whites as more attractive and blacks as ugly as well
>deprived of self care products
If anything designating a race as ugly makes them more likely to buy beauty products.

Besides, do you have a single fucking source for your reasoning? Everybody can tell stories.
>>

 No.318523

File: 1623699102415.jpg (83.6 KB, 940x529, 17575006_403.jpg)

>>317658
>Antisemitism is largely based on their historical involvement in banking. What do these racist stereotypes have to do with any given jews actual class? Nothing.
Anti-Semitism predates capitalism and banking in Western societies going back to the idea that "Jews killed Christ" and so on. Then anti-Semitism had an economic relationship as Jews were accountants and bankers since the Medieval period. The European monarchies needed funds to supply their claims to their crowns. So Jews became the "Uncle Tom" to serve the monarchies in exchange for religious tolerance. But the money didn't come out of nowhere but from exploiting ordinary peasants and civil classes.

So, to accomplish the objective of collecting money, Judaism for a long time was highly family oriented, so one can only convert through marriage. Thus, there was a rage from the ordinary European against the Jews. It was also a political tradition that the European monarchies would betray their Jewish "Uncle Toms" to the ordinary people every once in awhile in the name of Christianity if they couldn't repay their debts and/or the people could no longer stand the economic oppression, essentially the Christian rulers would sell out their own Jewish middlemen to create stability for the feudal system.

Thus, anti-Semitism was driven by politics and social class oppression/struggle.

Or take Germany which lost WWI. German nationalism demanded an explanation for this failure. Jews' activities clearly became a good excuse. Jews were believed to control goods and raised the price of goods when the German soldiers were starving on the front. This accusation wasn't totally false. During the civil war between the nationalists and the communists in China, capitalists in China also engaged in price gouging that partly caused the nationalists (KMT) to lose the war due to lack of supplies. The fact that Jewish merchants (although not just Jews) were involved in this in Germany was a historical accident, unfortunately for the Jews.

Since German nationalists couldn't blame themselves for their own failures after all, so they looked for a scapegoat. The Jews happened to be the one.

Externally, Germany also needed strong nationalism against the USSR's communist system and the British and French colonial empires. Germany lost all its colonies when it was defeated in World War I. German extremism and radicalism motivated and drove another round of attempted imperial expansion. Again, anti-Semitism became a tactic to unite Germans and rebuild the empire.
>>

 No.318525

>>318219
>>318510
Now that i think about it if slave owners could set beauty standards such that their slaves are perceived to to be more attractive to increase their worth.
Your just-so stories are full of shit.
>>

 No.318534

>>318510
>Let me tell you how wrong i am.
Ok, good.
>>

 No.318540

>>318523
You like to talk a lot, but you are incapable of reading consice points.
See >>317658
Racism is based on current and at most recent historic social relations.
You're whole rant is just that. A pointless rant as you fail to acknowledge what has been sad as it already addresses and refutes what you in long winded words try to say for your cope.
What a clown.
>>

 No.318543

>>318540
I'm a different anon.
>>

 No.318545

File: 1623699987219.jpg (85.41 KB, 1200x680, disney_robin_hood.png.jpg)

beauty standards are timeless and immutable, set in stone by evolutionary pressure over tens of thousands of years. that's why since 1973 the number of people who want to fuck robin hood has been growing exponentially.
>>

 No.318557

>>317641
>Doesn't understand what idpol means
What exactly do you think idpol is?
>>

 No.318560

File: 1623700765674.pdf (3.95 MB, 189x300, Abram Leon - The Jewish Qu….pdf)

>>

 No.318561

>>318545
Humans evolved but that doesn't actually influence anything we do whatsoever.
>>

 No.318567

>>318561
did you evolve to want to fuck robin hood, or to want to be fucked by robin hood?
>>

 No.318568

>>318560
I never blamed the Jews for anything really. They were scapegoated by Christian rulers.
>>

 No.318570

>>318567
You tell me, furry.
>>

 No.318574

>>318568
yes
and now there is a materialist analysis for you to read
>>

 No.318575

File: 1623701119023.jpg (29.63 KB, 640x480, 32901-enz_0.jpg)

>>318570
And I'm going to tell you if you hold your breath just for a moment … I can smell the cum on it as you lean towards me!
>>

 No.318578

>>318575
You have some issues bro. Seek help.
>>

 No.318582

>>318578
the only issue i have is that the only people who'll get my reference are still in bed.
>>

 No.318585

(and the lack of sex with robin hood, but that's a universal problem of mankind, like mortality.)
>>

 No.318782

TL;DR: Identity politics is a political strategy intended to replace class politics.
Both the bourgeoisie and the proletariat are formed as necessary components of the capitalist system. Neither classes are fixed or mutually exclusive (a worker can come to own and employ capital). Despite the antagonism of each class towards one another, the interests of both are often aligned in favor of reproducing capitalism, since one group depends on the other. If capitalism is to be superseded, both the bourgeoisie and the proletariat must be overcome.
Identity politics does not function in the same way. An identity group is often defined as either fixed or mutually exclusive - white people cannot become black and gay people cannot become straight, because they are born that way. Neither identity groups need the other in order to exist. Whether or not the interests of either groups align are either coincidental or a matter of cultural struggles.
Identity politics is separated from ideological politics in that ideologies are not fixed - a christian can convert to islam, a conservative can become a liberal. Ideological politics are also a displacement of class politics, and both overlaps with and is in a constant conflict with identity politics, where one is often redefined and regulated by the other.
For example, workerism is a form of ideological politics, as it simply opposes the bourgeoisie without regard for the necessary relationship between both classes. The most radical form of workerism strives for a proletariat without a bourgeoisie, embodied by a worker-controlled state assuming the role of the capitalist and thus conceptually eliminating the capitalist class.
What both identity politics and ideological politics share in common is the absence of material relationships. For class politics, each class has a direct and necessary relationship to each other and to the system which generates them. For identity politics, any relationships which do exist are depicted as little more than conflicts of power and domination, and to change such relationships simply involves changing how one interacts with the other. Ideological politics acts as a bridge between the two, allowing class politics to be distorted into the formation of identity groups - concepts such as the lower, middle and upper classes, which aren't fixed but are ultimately constructed.
The ability to divorce identity from material relationships allows one to freely construct identity groups and group relationships, and this is where the political strategy lies. By dividing society into identity groups and pitting one against the other, class politics not only becomes displaced, but subverted entirely - one can devise forms of interaction between identity groups which conceals, imitates or appropriates the characteristics of class.
This can be seen in how nazi germany transformed class politics into a struggle between the german people and jewry. Since jews occupied both class positions (like most other identity groups), their depiction in nazi society was of assuming the negative stereotypes of both the proletariat and the bourgeoisie. That jews were historically associated with finance and were thus overrepresented in the upper classes of german society was especially conducive to such a depiction.
>>

 No.318795

>>318582
>>318585
I like the robin hood movie. I'm not a furry, but when I saw it when I was little I thought Robin Hood was attractive. I love the intro song to the movie, I sometimes play it in the mornings when I'm in a good mood.
>>

 No.318868

>>318795
Oodilali oodilali golly what a day
>>

 No.325511

File: 1624037476693.png (33.96 KB, 253x258, dogquizical.png)

>>318782
> If capitalism is to be superseded, both the bourgeoisie and the proletariat must be overcome.
the proletariat has to overcome the bourgeoisie
>>

 No.325788

>>325511
In overcoming the bourgeoisie the proletariat also overcomes itself. You don't have "prole" branded on your ass. Being a prole is a class position that is defined in relation to the existence of the bourgeois. To abolish one is to abolish the other. The point is to overcome class society entirely.
>>

 No.325816

>>asians
The funny thing is that the "elevation" of "whiteness" in Asian cultures is also coming from a similar basis originally in class. Having "lighter" skin meant that the person was one who did not have to work in the fields, and this usually meant that the person was in a higher position, not part of the peasantry. The other factor that also promotes this mentality is that of the imperialism historically perpetrated onto numerous countries in that area. The "whitening" obsessions of occupied Korea's pop idols is one example of this.
>>

 No.326568

>>305962
Lib spotted.
>>

 No.326575

>>305966
Except the porky media is literally doing just that and has been since the invention of the printing press. The CIA has declassified documents showing how they infiltrated movements and pushed certain messages. It always works. Normies are extremely gullible. If they believe a particular opinion is fashionable, they'll hold that opinion.
>>

 No.326582

>>318574
>Abram
Perhaps there is a particular bias that this author holds. Perhaps I am unlikely to get any personal utility from these ideas as the author has different interests than mine and what benefits them does not necessarily benefit me.
>>

 No.326590

>>306299
>which is precisely the type of behavior that makes homosexuals turn to idpol for answers?

How's that going for you

fucking lol

Just get a fucking clue please. PLEASE.
>>

 No.326596

>>306895
>It's totally justified to find idpol and its tunnel vision (at best) annoying, and it often is counterproductive. But I think it's a better idea to pick our battles and maybe see if we can't pick up some useful allies along the way. We can save our vehemence for the bourgeoisie, and be stern but polite about idpol retards, at least if they're talking in good faith.

Spoilers: they never are. It's a hotbed of narcissism.

I'm sorry I have no time - and neither should you - for people who prioritize trying to shanghai chad into LARPing that they are stacy over the liberation of humans everywhere.

I have never seen ANYTHING productive come about from the idpol sphere, and on the contrary have seen it repel and repulse people who wouldve been good marxists, and act as a memetic virus to poison the well against socialism.
>>

 No.335063

>>326596
>I have never seen ANYTHING productive come about from the idpol sphere, and on the contrary have seen it repel and repulse people who wouldve been good marxists, and act as a memetic virus to poison the well against socialism.
So what's the " memetic vaccine" ?
>>

 No.335081

Identity politics in the modern sense only makes sense in societies where eugenics is enshrined and conscious segregation into social castes defined by "civic worth" is practiced in every minute way possible. Its growth is a sign that eugenic thinking is increasingly dominant; and this is why "idpol" is most prominent among those whose thinking is particularly eugenic, the fascist right and American progressivism and a large part of those who were once "liberal". It is far less pronounced among those who are less eugenic in their daily behaviors, or whose eugenism is at least muted for some reason or another.
The LACK of "idpol" among minority groups as a discernable trend should be very telling. There's a whole lot of black people who have no solidarity with their tribe, or little solidarity. What solidarity exists is almost entirely due to there being an actual history within the black race, and the existence of explicit racist laws practically forcing a shared existence of some sort.
There is a difference between blocs of people who were brought together for an actual historical reason that correspond to a racial origin, and "idpol" which is a very artificial construction. Hitlerian idpol faggotry was the first real blow against the actual historical construct of krautland, replacing it with a "Germanness" more amenable to eugenics (and the foreign financiers who made the Nazis big). The Nazi treatment of the whole society pittted German against German, and openly used "muh nation" to keep people satisfied with the arrangement by finding some other races to shit on even more than the eugenic society made them shit on each other. The whole thing rests on maximizing misery, except for those people who are drunk enough to enjoy the cheap thrill idpol delivers to the reptilian brain. As with Americans, the people promulgating this stuff have nothing but contempt for their "white brethren" and revel in the total struggle of all against all taken to its logical conclusion. It's an insane and stupid world-system kept in place by an extreme use of force. It isn't even the same thing as the usual things you see associated with racism, like imperial conquest and colonization. It's the purest stupidity of race-science distilled, a kind that only makes sense in a eugenicist society where every petty distinction is used to divide a populace against itself, and force a social ordering mandated from a central institution above the society. It's why you don't see anything quite like it in the past. You can find racism, imperialism, bigotry of the worst sort, but you don't find the most craven "idpol" faggotry until the past century.
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 No.335109

>>335081
Based eugenics autismo. Intersectionality corresponds quite nicely with nationalism of the 19th and early 20th centuries also.
>>

 No.335137

>>335109
There was a difference with the nationalist movements of the 19th century, in that there were actual racial/ethnic blocs that were forming nations. Idpol is more akin to the American experience, in which race was used as a legal category to denote a class distinction. It starts appearing when you have a whole social order based on segregating not just races from each other, but the whole society is sorted by grades of "civic worth" and this expectation is drilled into all participants of society. Such an environment was and is fertile ground for something like the KKK (based again on the historical legal distinction of slavery and attempts to re-impose it). The fascists were about eugenics and slavery much like the KKK / Confederacy, and so their nationalist appearance was the same sort of shit. In the end, fascism subordinates the actual nation under the cartel that rules the state. It's a mistake to interpret fascism as "ultra-nationalism", especially when its objective was always global domination of the world by the fascist (eugenics) ideology above any fidelity to "nation", which would become more and more antiquated (just as it did for us). Fascism was really the end of nationalism as the major force in geopolitics, and the rise of intensely ideological superstates which the democratic nation-state was subsumed into.

My understanding of intersectionality is that it is a legal theory. It only "makes sense" with a wonky interpretation of liberal laws for protected classes. The idea that different "axes of oppression" are a thing would be utterly alien to pretty much anyone until the neoliberal period. Oppression is oppression, not a mystical feeling to be adjudicated in a courtroom setting. It exists precisely because the "protected class" laws were made intentionally weak, in an environment of at-will hiring and more or less mandated permanent unemployment. You couldn't actually do anything about the law or the people in charge though. The acceptance of this intersectionality shit is an admission of the utter impotence of those left formations that tout it, and just how far gone we are when it comes to any sort of labor rights and labor's power. They can't even bring themselves to question the Malthusian logic where too many people are after too few jobs, and the jobs are intentionally kept in short supply to create the environment where people will kill each other over a shitty Wal-Mart job.
>>

 No.335162

>>335137
Surprisingly cogent take.
>>

 No.335209

>>335137
I was thinking of intersectionality and modern idpol as occupying the same function as early nationalism did. Back in the day nationalism was a progressive, even left wing ideology that worked to give form and justification to the modern bourgeois state. Now that the nation state has been subsumed by the world market and modern imperialism, a new ideology is needed. It also has the exact same class character as nationalism of old. OG ethnonationalists are in character more similar to royalists, Bonapartists etc. How the modern idpol will turn to its opposite remains to be seen, but I'm convinced the ultimate death struggle will be fought between the workers movement and the idpol faggots.
>>

 No.336514

>>335209
There's not a genuinely progressive bone in intersectionality. Most of the race-discourse of the past 40 years was calculated to reverse the long-run trend of integration, or control integration in a way that would favor the rich, while retaining the ability to pander to whites with petty distinction. There was the risk for a while that white people were no longer having it in the same way, so it was necessary to find the most craven of the white race and coddle them, encourage their stupidity. Intersectionality and "wokism" is the flip side of that false debate, with a predetermined conclusion. It's not meant to actually improve the conditions of anyone, since it's premised on the belief that only the "worthy" of the oppressed groups have any sort of future. So much of the intersectional movement has been backsliding on things that were, in the 80s and 90s, not far out there at all. For example, there was an actual debate about prisoner rights and what we were going to do in the prison system, but Reagan and Clinton wanted to expand the prison system and privatize it, and so this giant "tough on crime" movement was inserted into the mass media and we're supposed to believe it is a good thing when Bill Clinton executes a retarded man. It's so over the top and sadistic, and intersectionality doesn't really question why that happened. It's designed so you don't question that.
>>

 No.336521

"idpol" is a keywork closeted nazis and duginists from this shithole site use to silence PoC, nothing more nothing less
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 No.336528

>>336521
I would agree, it's utilized by people who latch onto a confused understanding of the situation and seek to advance a reactionary agenda. There is an actual identity politics though, and there is a reason why that manifests in a particular way over the past century - as I mentioned, it is the mentality of a society in which people are pitted against each other in Social Darwinian competition as a fundamental social rule.
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 No.336536

>>336528
They're not confused, they're mean intentioned crypto-fashs trying to spread their agenda
>>

 No.336539

>>336536
I mean there are confused people who want to make sense of the world, and the crypto-fash latch on to that to sell fascist bullshit (all ideology trends towards fascism in a society where eugenics is everywhere enshrined, fascism is the "only natural system" in such a world).
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 No.336703

File: 1624590025986.jpg (58.06 KB, 400x467, 33a03170c0cc46c286801f0476….jpg)

>>336521
>"idpol" is a keywork closeted nazis and duginists from this shithole site use to silence PoC, nothing more nothing less
>>

 No.340116

>>335209
>I was thinking of intersectionality and modern idpol as occupying the same function as early nationalism did. Back in the day nationalism was a progressive, even left wing ideology that worked to give form and justification to the modern bourgeois state. Now that the nation state has been subsumed by the world market and modern imperialism, a new ideology is needed. It also has the exact same class character as nationalism of old. OG ethnonationalists are in character more similar to royalists, Bonapartists etc. How the modern idpol will turn to its opposite remains to be seen, but I'm convinced the ultimate death struggle will be fought between the workers movement and the idpol faggots.

Interesting theory, this could be, although i want others to weigh in as well.
>>

 No.340129

>>336521
Honestly I would take you more seriously if you stopped using PoC to represent minorities as you sound just like the Segregationists back in the Jim Crow South. But Liberals are just racists as the people they pretend to hate, and are fascists who rather keep their pet minorities on a leash to parade around to show how "Progressive" they are.
>>

 No.340158

I wrote a post once about the dialectics of identity politics and somebody capped it, I would like it plz if that person still has it
>>

 No.340173

File: 1624726185352.png (171.62 KB, 430x459, pokekamon.png)

>>340129
>who rather keep their pet minorities on a leash to parade around to show how "Progressive" they are.
So like minority Pokemon ?
>>

 No.340181

>>340173
That's one way of putting it yes. I was going with the literal pet analogy of them being like dogs to be shown off. Then have their pets attack their political enemies and get praised for defending their oppressors.

Which is why I don't listen to liberals when they are trying to defend Black people in America for example. They go out of their way to categorize them as a Person of Color. You know who else did that you guessed it the Segregationists calling themed Colored Person/People. Different Time just repurposing the terms to sound "Progressive".
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 No.340219

>>317641
People don’t understand that IdPol is expressed by fascists and conservatives too.
>>

 No.340682

File: 1624741314452.jpg (57.66 KB, 720x785, Your brain on Pol .JPG)

>>326582
Literally picrel
>>

 No.351871

>>306024
should be added to the sticky thread or /edu/
>>

 No.351877

>>340173
Exactly like pokemon. They even have their pet minority identities battle with the oppression olympics nonsense they pull.
>>

 No.352855

>>306995

Still no Arguments
>>

 No.352905

File: 1625282732397-0.jpg (206.51 KB, 1024x682, Pedro-Castillo-en-Carabayl….jpg)

File: 1625282732397-1.png (360.39 KB, 721x365, 534895034850.png)

>>335137
>My understanding of intersectionality is that it is a legal theory. It only "makes sense" with a wonky interpretation of liberal laws for protected classes.
I like the point about legal theory here. American legal theory comes from 18th-century mechanical materialism where everything in the universe is held up to be like a big clock and all the elements can be managed and predicted in a precise and perfect manner. Related: "rule of law." But while the marginal utility of complicating the legal system with new laws and regulations is positive in the beginning, eventually it becomes so fat and inefficient that no one but a lawyer can understand the legal documents. It's a highly commercialized and industrialized system which is having similar problems to an extremely bloated and inefficient bureaucracy.

Same with Brexit in the U.K., the MPs had only a short amount of time to read thousands of pages of documents before approving or disapproving. But most just skip it, and there's no way the public was going to read the whole thing. There's rapidly increasing entropy in the system in terms of both information and material (expenses) while the marginal utility of creating new laws is negative. In other words, the system is like an outdated machine that consumes more input than the output it produces.

>>335209
>How the modern idpol will turn to its opposite remains to be seen, but I'm convinced the ultimate death struggle will be fought between the workers movement and the idpol faggots.
Too binary. I think they'll interpenetrate each other in interesting ways. The Peru election here is interesting because Pedro Castillo is a social conservative in some ways, and his supporters are young people, rural farmers and copper miners and indigenous people and his rallies were rich in cultural symbolism and demands for respecting their cultural rights. Is this idpol? Fujimori meanwhile had more support among the whites who dress and act exactly like Yuppies with condos in Miami and identify more with that then their own country.

I also think some anons here seem to desire to flatten differences between people, like where we achieve power by smashing everyone into a homogenous and disciplined movement of identical "workers" with the same values to contrast with the atomizing and fluid nature of capitalism. And there may very well be reactionary elements in these things we're talking about, including idpol of the purported left, or within specific communities. But before you do anything, I think you have to study why this reactionary element exists – perhaps even the necessity of it given a certain point in time – which then allows you to offer constructive solutions (using Marxism) instead of sanctimonious preaching of abstract dogmas to them. I think that would just be like imposing "Marxism" as another "ism" onto people. And that comes with the implication of some ruling hierarchy that everyone must conform to. What "Marxism" seems to be, the more I read about it, is like an integrated basis for social science and political strategy that's going to vary in different places.

There is no Marxist nation or Marxist community. Marxism must always be adapted to the particular, and that's something that is understood in the theory but hasn't really been practiced in reality for awhile until relatively recently.
>>

 No.353028

>>352905
>American legal theory comes from 18th-century mechanical materialism
You are just pulling this out of your ass, American legal theory is a derivative of the many different colonial powers, but it also has adopted a surprising amount of native tribal law and generated a lot of novel legal concepts. However none of it is materialist, like all legal systems it's thoroughly idealist. Conceiving and building a materialist legal system both in theory and praxis is certainly on the socialist todo list, but so far that hasn't been realized.
>Related: "rule of law." But while the marginal utility of complicating the legal system with new laws
the marginal utility ? are you trying to smuggle in capitalist value theory through the back door

>I also think some anons here seem to desire to flatten differences between people, like where we achieve power by smashing everyone into a homogenous and disciplined movement of identical "workers" with the same values to contrast with the atomizing and fluid nature of capitalism.

We want freedom from identitarianism, for your kind to stop gaslighting people and help the bourgeoisie rule by divide and conquer. And what's up with the percussive analogies like "flattening" and "smashing" ? Should i accuse you of trying to steam-hammer people into preformed identitarian stamped shapes and press-force them through identity-extrusions to fit your prejudiced hatreds of the lower classes ?

>The Peru election here is interesting because Pedro Castillo is a social conservative in some ways, and his supporters are young people, rural farmers and copper miners and indigenous people and his rallies were rich in cultural symbolism and demands for respecting their cultural rights. Is this idpol? Fujimori meanwhile had more support among the whites who dress and act exactly like Yuppies with condos in Miami and identify more with that then their own country.

You have to stop projecting your own racism onto other political movements. You are like a ghost from the Victorian era that is looking at the rest of the world like it's a strange zoo.

>Marxism must always be adapted to the particular,

No Marxism must be adapted to material conditions, but otherwise Marxism is in the universalist tradition of the enlightenment. Particularism would be a regression to pre-modern forms of society like what was practiced by feudal monarchies.
>>

 No.354813

>>317652
Asians have small penis
>>

 No.354829

>>354813
Stems from colonialism and the patriachal structures of the invading europeans. Simple and very petty ruling class ideology of emasculation of subjogated people.
>>

 No.354842

>>353028
>We want freedom from identitarianism
How is identitarianism holding you back? Your efforts to tell people to shut up and stop talking about oppression is bound to fail, because oppression always breeds resistance.
>>

 No.354932

>>354842
Identitarianism is oppressing the economic left, it's about politically persecuting the people that defend the economic interest of the workers.
Its about dividing the working class, distracting them with infighting, rendering them impotent in the face of vicious class war by the bourgeoisie.
Identity politics has become pre-fascistic enforcement of class collaboration-ism on behalf of corporate domination of the human species.
Mark fisher called the mechanism of identitarian political persecution: "The Vampires’ Castle"
<It specialises in propagating guilt. It is driven by a priest’s desire to excommunicate and condemn, an academic-pedant’s desire to be the first to be seen to spot a mistake, and a hipster’s desire to be one of the in-crowd.
You are part of the vampires castle.
>Your efforts to tell people to shut up and stop talking about oppression is bound to fail, because oppression always breeds resistance.
This is the most dishonest and vile thing in this thread. You just told people to shut up about identitarian oppression
Let me explain by quoting some more Fisher
<The danger in attacking the Vampires’ Castle is that it can look as if – and it will do everything it can to reinforce this thought – that one is attacking the struggles against racism, and sexism. But, far from being a legitimate expression of such struggles, the Vampires’ Castle is best understood as a bourgeois-liberal perversion and appropriation of the energy of these movements.
You are not defending anybodies struggles, you are not representing anybody who is oppressed. Identitarians like you are enforcing the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie in the most cynical way possible. And you are actively helping the oppression of those that you pretend to defend, people like you burn the credibility of struggles of minorities and the oppressed, because you use it for your own selfish advancement. The way this form of politics is reproducing it self is by first sacrificing people to the capitalist machine, then, when they cry out in pain and try to politically organize, identitarians like you suck out all the political energies to reinforce the neoliberal system that kills them. The system will continue to sacrifice people, then funnel their rage into reproducing their torture chamber. It's cruel inhuman and deserves nothing else than condemnation.

Identitarianism is the expression of neoliberal political domination.
Identitarianism is oppression.

You are a social predator and your disguise has failed, now fuck off.
>>

 No.354959

>>306024
>>351871
>should be added to the sticky thread or /edu/
Yes
>>

 No.355690

>>306252
The idea of "human default" or "human nature" itself is reactionary, and anyone making claims based on that should be immediately IP banned.
>>

 No.356144

>>306034

Fuck off and die
>>

 No.361649

File: 1625671828048.jpg (80.07 KB, 773x563, Tampereen_suurlakkokomitea….JPG)

>>352905
>Too binary. I think they'll interpenetrate each other in interesting ways.
Perhaps. In my country - Finland - the workers movement was almost uniformly behind national independence, and actively pursued it both under the Tsar and after the Bolshevik revolution, yet they also completely rejected the nationalist ideology. The cause of Finnish independence for the workers was completely internationalist to it's core. This is paradoxical to libs who can't into dialectical thinking, but in reality completely logical and harmoneous.

>The Peru election here is interesting because Pedro Castillo is a social conservative in some ways, and his supporters are young people, rural farmers and copper miners and indigenous people and his rallies were rich in cultural symbolism and demands for respecting their cultural rights. Is this idpol? Fujimori meanwhile had more support among the whites who dress and act exactly like Yuppies with condos in Miami and identify more with that then their own country.

I see no contradiction here. I would not be surprised if the indigenous people are a teensy weensy bit "socially conservative" themselves. Internationalism is precisely not a erasing of all differences, but meeting people where they're at in order to build a common workers movement. Yes, in practice the workers movement does take on a militaristic "uniform" aesthetic and language, but that is almost a strategic necessity. Actual minority members don't actually need to see their own little symbol added to the red flag or whatever. They know who they are, who their reps are, and what the organization is that they stand for. Local exceptions may apply.

It's the people who try to push their own idea of "inclusivity" or "intersectionality" - idea which almost always is completely artificial - to the fore of the movement that are the problem. They are much closer to the right wing yuppies than they are to the actual workers movement.

>But before you do anything, I think you have to study why this reactionary element exists – perhaps even the necessity of it given a certain point in time – which then allows you to offer constructive solutions (using Marxism) instead of sanctimonious preaching of abstract dogmas to them.

If I read you correctly, you're worried that I preach abstract theory to some minorities that are enthusiastic idpollers, if I'm anti idpol myself. I don't. First of all, actuall working people tend to be highly suspicious of that shit on their own, completely regardless of race or gender. But when it comes to actual practical issues that have to do with their identity, I shut up and listen. It's petty bourgeois idpol as indepent ideology I think we need to fight against.

>I think that would just be like imposing "Marxism" as another "ism" onto people. And that comes with the implication of some ruling hierarchy that everyone must conform to. What "Marxism" seems to be, the more I read about it, is like an integrated basis for social science and political strategy that's going to vary in different places.

Based and Marx-pilled.

>There is no Marxist nation or Marxist community. Marxism must always be adapted to the particular, and that's something that is understood in the theory but hasn't really been practiced in reality for awhile until relatively recently.

Again, you are preaching to the choir, my man.
>>

 No.361688

>>354842
Because identitarianism is inherently bourgeois and by necessity requires conditions which support bourgeois ideology to exist. Any identitarian movement that isn't wholly committed to abolishing the identity in question is reflexively supportive of the status quo and therefore reactionary. Furthermore, since the bourgeoisie controls the creation and dimensions of these identities, by extension they control the political ideology of that movement. Just take BLM for example.

Workers' movements threaten the bourgeoisie. Your crappy identitarian fan club sells tshirts.
>>

 No.361689

>>305973
LMAO what? Culture defines nationalism. Just because you dont like it doesnt make it any less real
>>

 No.361697

>>361689
>Culture defines nationalism
How
>>

 No.361717

>>361697
Nationalism is build upon culture. How do you set apart people 1 from people 2 right across the border? Promote whatever culture is present in your land so you have a proper ideological casus belli to rule over a group of people within your borders.

But it can go other way around too. Nationalism can become culture itself, like havent you been to a pub that has shitton of flags in it? People probably didnt put them there because of a political motivation. They probably use their nationhood as a part of their cultural identity.
>>

 No.361722

File: 1625673683906.png (643.28 KB, 1830x2048, 6z5gm6b4nu871.png)

Talking about idpol, what does /leftypol/ think about gender abolitionism?
>>

 No.361729

>>361722
It’ll probably be a thing, but also who cares.
>>

 No.361733

>>361722
Retarded
>>

 No.361822

File: 1625676138968.jpg (117.71 KB, 640x918, Castlevania2SimonsQuestnes.jpg)

>>354932
>You are part of the vampires castle.
Is that a Castlevania game? Do I also get a witch's cauldron or get to experience lucifer's renaissance?

>And you are actively helping the oppression of those that you pretend to defend, people like you burn the credibility of struggles of minorities and the oppressed, because you use it for your own selfish advancement.

My selfish advancement? On an anonymous imageboard? I'm not even namefagging or flagfagging. This must be a vampire's castle because you're seeing monsters everywhere. But I'm not sure how much power Mark Fisher's whole overrated metaphor had in terms of what powers this castle can impose on people other than criticizing celebrities and creating a bad atmosphere on Twitter.

>>361688
>Any identitarian movement that isn't wholly committed to abolishing the identity in question is reflexively supportive of the status quo and therefore reactionary.
For one, it's very hard to do that when people are faced with the threat of actual physical violence on account of race, gender or nationality – if what you're doing is asking them to abandon inter-communal solidarity that they lean on to resist that stuff. But I also think it's simply not true that "identitarians" try to keep people in their identities as the purpose is to overcome oppression, not to maintain it, and that's true even if demands are articulated through identity. You can't understand Malcolm X without thinking about his identity, or Che Guevara's loyalties to an interconnected Latin American family. And their identities were not static, they changed over time as they politically developed. I think what are usually called "identities" are often the political forms where major contradictions in the system are located (race, gender, nationality, etc.) and the recovery – by rejecting capitalism – of one's identity restrained by capitalism has powered revolutions in history more than bargaining for better wages has.

Communism has to be based on what unites us, but I think the only way to really do that is to look at people who are NOT LIKE US who are struggling, get past our own individualist mindsets, and see their struggles as our own.
>>

 No.361882

>>361722
Gender role abolition sure. But there is significant scientific evidence (you know, the basis of a lot of the discussion of the transgender phenomenon) that indicates there is some kind of internal psychological-biological constellation of traits that at least relate to gender identity. Obviously this is something that is heavily socially conditioned, but that doesn't mean there's no biological component either. We shouldn't treat people differently according to gender but that doesn't mean we should assume it's purely a social construct.
>>

 No.361930

>>361722
We are definitely going to do unisex toilets for new construction, with lots of individual stalls that are fully equipped and spread out all over, so nobody ever again gets the idea that we need bathroom theory. The small amount of piping that can be economized with group toilets isn't worth the bickering. But the word "gender" that's politically loaded now, can't use it anymore, we begin with gender-abolishing the word "gender".

We are not doing clothing or toy ideology, toy makers and fashion people got to figure that out for them self's. They are going to get a set of economic constraints, a minimum bar for technical quality as well as health and safety rules, but for the rest they figure out what people like. There can be local dress codes but we are not scaling this up to the institutional level.

We are not going to abolish any hobbies, the fuck ? nobody cares if people do their hobby wrong.

We are also going to use the secular principles of separation of state and religion and apply that to identity too. All the identitarian factions are reactionary as fuck and none of them gets to use the power of the state to bully people with their shit.
>>

 No.362705

>>335209
>I was thinking of intersectionality and modern idpol as occupying the same function as early nationalism did. Back in the day nationalism was a progressive, even left wing ideology that worked to give form and justification to the modern bourgeois state. Now that the nation state has been subsumed by the world market and modern imperialism, a new ideology is needed. It also has the exact same class character as nationalism of old. OG ethnonationalists are in character more similar to royalists, Bonapartists etc. How the modern idpol will turn to its opposite remains to be seen, but I'm convinced the ultimate death struggle will be fought between the workers movement and the idpol faggots
That's exactly how I've seen it since the start of this mess.
>>

 No.362779

>>335209
Very interesting take.

>>352905
>Too binary. I think they'll interpenetrate each other in interesting ways.
Nah. Liberal idpol is way too unaware of class or materialism for that matter. Saying class struggle and idpol will interpenetrate is like saying young earth creationism and biology will interpenetrate. They are too at odds at a fundamental level.
>>

 No.362939

>>361822
>For one, it's very hard to do that when people are faced with the threat of actual physical violence on account of race, gender or nationality

They aren't faced with violence because of imaginary labels, they're faced with violence because they're poor.

>But I also think it's simply not true that "identitarians" try to keep people in their identities


You're wrong.

>the purpose is to overcome oppression, not to maintain it, and that's true even if demands are articulated through identity.


If their identities are the reason they're facing oppression as you said, then maintaining those identities means maintaining that oppression.

>You can't understand Malcolm X without thinking about his identity


Most of his life was characterized by a series of false consciousnesses, including the bourgeois imposed "Negro," which he abandoned for the Nation of Islam scam, which he in turn abandoned when Elijah Mohammad turned out to be a charlatan and his "Islam" a dime-store knockoff. His "identity" was fucking hogwash, like all "identities."

>I think what are usually called "identities" are often the political forms where major contradictions in the system are located (race, gender, nationality, etc.)


I really wish you weren't so fucking retarded and I hope one day you'll stop wasting your life defending bourgeois marketing demographics.
>>

 No.368908

Shut the fuck up you giga-faggot
>>

 No.368945

File: 1625965082334.jpg (227.42 KB, 691x950, meposters-0003-0721.jpg)

>>362779
>They are too at odds at a fundamental level.
I guess I have a more expansive view of "identity politics" which is bigger than liberalism. This isn't abstract either. I don't think you can understand the Iranian Revolution without reference to the pride Iranians felt in an Islamic identity and its revival as a source of resistance. That actually happened and the working class was the backbone of the revolution and paralyzed the monarchy with nationwide strikes.

>>362939
>They aren't faced with violence because of imaginary labels, they're faced with violence because they're poor. Again, false dilemma. Like the truth could be "both." It could be contradictory, but the contradiction is in the essence of the thing.

>You're wrong.

I could be wrong.

>His "identity" was fucking hogwash, like all "identities."

Malcolm X had a quote I liked: "A race of people is like an individual man; until it uses its own talent, takes pride in its own history, expresses its own culture, affirms its own selfhood, it can never fulfill itself." I believe that the black people of the world will achieve this.

>I really wish you weren't so fucking retarded and I hope one day you'll stop wasting your life defending bourgeois marketing demographics.

I just don't care, really. They're going to try and market something to X group? Okay. But who cares? I don't watch T.V. or pay attention to these ads. Does that mean you should just give up your identity because some company is trying to use it to sell you beer? It's a foolish way to think about the world.
>>

 No.368956

File: 1625965763449.jpg (95.03 KB, 834x958, Froleytia Capistrano.jpg)

>>306673
Froleytia Capistrano from Heavy Object

Pro tip: in the future, search Google for image whenever you want to know the source of an image
>>

 No.368959

>>305966
are you retarded?
>>

 No.369181

>>305973
Spooky take
>>

 No.369182

You can't overcome woke idpol because you like it too much. It is your actual ideology, the socialism is window dressing.
>>

 No.369185

>>361722
Had me going until the "professions and hobbies". Lads and lasses have the right to enjoy "boys/ladies nights out" etc.
>>

 No.373278

Oh my god tankies are so stupid. dude you seriously cant think of race and class at the same time?

identity politics is not race essentialism at all and it certainly takes class seriously. Do you know how the term 'identity politics' originated. It was originated by the combahee river collective. You can read the combahee river collective statement yourself and see that class was certainly on the agenda. If you truly want to unite a very diverse working class youre going to have to understand identity politics. At least read what it is…not just regurgitate right wing misconceptions of identity politics or liberal misuses of it.
>>

 No.375296

>>373278
>identity politics is not race essentialism
show me a single idpol group that is trying to abolish their racial classification
>>

 No.375360

File: 1626206696020.png (805.87 KB, 1689x2094, 59175da90f2698c7383c0aeb56….png)

>>373278
This is not a tankie vs anarkiddie argument. It's a communist vs liberal argument.
>>

 No.375370

>>373278
They really don't. They just lump it along with other analyses.

Class comes first, everything else is secondary.
Deal with it.
>>

 No.375387

>>373278
why do you cling to something that the establishment already absorbed already?
>>

 No.375397

This imperialism meme is clearly used against communist regimes like China and now Cuba. Its idpol if not thoroughly materialist and related to porky class interests.
>>

 No.375432

>>375387
Why are you people so dense? Not the other Anon, but we believe that in this current society these identity specific issues can't be solved and that abolishing capitalism would be a necessity. Simultaneously a socialist revolution alone would not solve all of those other problems relating to certain groups as well. Hence why we don't see class as the end all be all (inb4 liberal suck my cock). I already made a thread before and asked how problem X, Y, Z regarding whatever group would be solved after a socialist revolution and got not a single good answer. I honestly would not cling to "idpol" if I got a good answer how these issues solely rely in class and would be solved with a socialist revolution alone.
>>

 No.376216

>>375432
>how problem X, Y, Z regarding whatever group
expand, I want to call you a retard but maybe there are genuine idpol problem that wouldnt be solved through a true worker democracy after communist revolution. I just cant see one.
>>

 No.376220

>>375296
>show me a single idpol group that is trying to abolish their racial classification
Good point. What makes the proletariat revolutionary is that its all encompassing through its common ownership and is self abolishing accordingly
>>

 No.377771

Is the problem with idpol is that it gives a progressive character to capitalism and liberalism's fundamentally anti masses/popular politics? Because you cannot work through or lobby liberal institutions on a mass basis, you must instead organize in ways that reward their expansion
>>

 No.377907

>>375296
Christians. Muslims. Gays. Feminists.

>>361717
Explain Belgium.

>>355690
All humans share some traits, like wanting to live in a safe place with a low criminality and not a shithole, or wanting a confortable modern house and not a sack.
The need for safety and confort, for instance are common to all humans. It's in our nature, like it or don't.
There is a reason why every single group of people, everywhere on the planet and at all ages made a religion. Our brains are made in a way that give us a need for purpose, for a greater explaination.
There is a reason why they also organized in tribes/clans/nations/whatever. Our brains are made to think in term of "us" and "them". It take effort to overcome that and only genetically engineering ourselves will change it.
>>

 No.377935

>>377907
>Christians. Muslims. Gays. Feminists
None of these have a struggle that concludes with self abolition.
>>

 No.377942

>>377907
>Christians. Muslims. Gays. Feminists.
Are you literally retarded?
>>

 No.377954

>>376220
Exactly. Any group whose ultimate aim isn't self abolition is suspect at best, especially when it comes to identity groups created by bourgeois ideology, like "white people" or "black people."
>>

 No.377960

>>377935
>>377942
>that is trying to abolish their racial classification
>>

 No.378169

>>377960
I'm confused. These aren't racial classifications.

I also want to add, the history of democratic struggles (called tasks of the bourgeois democratic revolution by Lenin) doesn't have anything that features the goal of self-abolition. It's about being free x. The proletariat is about the end to the need for work.
>>

 No.378357

File: 1626306595538.jpeg (3.05 MB, 1800x1322, diogenes.jpeg)

>>377907
>wanting a confortable modern house and not a sack.
>>

 No.378523

IDPOL ceased to be a positive movement that set out to teach tolerance and acceptance some time around 2012 .

Now tolerance and acceptance are dirty words to liberals and IDPOL is all about scapegoating some identities while promoting the superiority of other identities.

They have , by salami slicing , became Nazi-like in their hate of anyone outside of their accepted in-group identities. And it happened ever so slowly , one small justification or equivocation at a time , with each one building on the last one , until a massive change came about without anyone ever noticing.
>>

 No.383857

File: 1626539356608.jpg (23.74 KB, 505x508, FB_IMG_1626537766067.jpg)

>>

 No.387272

an anarchists shilling for idpol what a surprise
>>

 No.387372

>>

 No.387384

>>375397
>This imperialism meme is clearly used against communist regimes like China and now Cuba.
Neither Cuba nor China are imperialist, and neither are "regimes" , why are you using glowy talk ?
>Its idpol if not thoroughly materialist and related to porky class interests.
The theory of Imperialism is indeed materialist, but it is not id-pol those are mutually exclusive.

>>378523
>IDPOL ceased to be a positive movement that set out to teach tolerance and acceptance some time around 2012.
You think it wasn't rotten before 2012 ?
I'm curious as to why you think that, you can find criticisms of Idpol reaching as far back as the 1980s. You could say that they lacked the power to be as destructive as they are now and maybe had to be more restrained. But clearly the identity centric theories are fundamentally broken.
>>

 No.387912

>>306299
Maybe one’s use of language doesn’t need to cater to the homosexual identity 24/7.
Get over yourself.
>>

 No.387916

>>375432
I don’t care about your identity problems. Buy a gun.
What matters is economic self interest, and by extension collective class interest.
Nothing more. Nothing less.
>>

 No.387938

>>335063
Rejecting idpol ‘Marxists’, queer theorists and ethnonationalists of all stripes from socialist organizing for starters. Basically the entire ‘progressive(TM)’ stack.
>>

 No.387947

>>387938
and of course reactionary idpol, such as anti queer faggots
right? :-)
>>

 No.387950

maybe you, poster number >>387912, should stop being such a faggot.
>>

 No.387957

>>387912
why does it have to cater to your hetero identity, subhuman?
>>

 No.387974

File: 1626716655271.png (143.31 KB, 784x920, 569-03495-0345.png)

The "anti-idpol" left wants a kind of vulgar "True Marxism" to remain a vague, never-to-be-actualized, never to-be-questioned *thing* that they wave around, which stands for their (understandable) but ultimately reactionary hatred of everything as it is. But there are communists in governments right now, and they actually exist. There's your "true Marxism," and their relationship to these groups is dependent on those groups' relationships to their struggles, which they are conducting.

>BLM's statement noted that the Cuban people are "being punished" by the U.S. government because the nation has maintained its commitment to "sovereignty and self-determination." "United States leaders have tried to crush this revolution for decades." "Instead of international amity, respect, and goodwill, the U.S. government has only instigated suffering for the country's 11 million people—of which 4 million are Black and Brown."


>The Official IG for the Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation recalled that Cuba has "historically demonstrated solidarity with oppressed peoples of African descent" and supported liberation struggles in several African countries.
>>

 No.387982

>>387974
But have you stopped beating your wife yet?
>>

 No.387987

>>387982
when will you stop being a subhuman?
>>

 No.387988

>>387982
No, nor will I stop
>>

 No.387994

>>387938
Yea seems like a good way to isolate yourself and become a sect disconnected from the masses obsessing over peripheral issues rather than class struggle.
>>

 No.387996

>>387982
Why yes, I am an English football fan, how can you tell?
>>

 No.388001

File: 1626717201517.jpg (43.68 KB, 600x933, 240.jpg)

>This is really an exemplary post. How do you lack this much self-awareness to complain about "idpol" but than you keep using homophobic slurs, which is precisely the type of behavior that makes homosexuals turn to idpol for answers? We live in a world where dominant demographics mistreat less powerful demographics (not just based on class) and they are expected to take it. "They looked like normal workers," and who says everything has to suit your heterosexual sensibilities? I know that my views are not accepted on your little imageboard for shut ins anyways, but if there is ever going to be a socialist revolution. then the content on here is evidence that all the problems liberal "idpol" addresses is still going to be a problem, because you as supposed communists engage in mistreatment towards these demographics. So how is it solely capitalism's fault that racism, sexism, homophobia exists, if after a socialist revolution people like you are around? One day you people must realize that these issues stand on their own and can't all be reduced to class and capitalism.
>>

 No.388002

>>387994
socialism in one brain
>>

 No.388003

>>377907
Not even Belgium can explain Belgium.
>>

 No.388124

>>308616
Underrated post.
>>

 No.388142

>>387994
>rejecting peripheral issues over class struggle
>obsessing over peripheral issues rather than class struggle
I don't get it, how does one become the other?
>>

 No.388165

>>388142
You play the idpol game in any way you will eventually be in. Lenin hand-waved freud's theories as bourgeois distraction while concentrating on the work still aiming to understand the world and the humans in it (correct position), now imagine if he called for a ban of every Marxists trying to understand the human mind in his organization while writing entire essays about how communists shouldn't believe in psychology because it would mean they are degenerates trying to fuck their mothers (incorrect position, maybe no USSR)
>>

 No.388287

>>388165
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but it seems you're actually retarded.
>>

 No.388568

>>388287
>it seems you're actually retarded.
This is a very psychological analysis, bourgeois thinking stuff, you know I wanted to fight for the future of the human species toward communism but now that you angered me I'm gonna write a thousand page essay about people being mean to each other from a marxist point of view
>>

 No.390577

>>305966
retarded take
>>

 No.390604

>>387974
Silly BLM, elections are over.

>>388003
Exlain Switzerland, or the Russian federation, or India.
>>

 No.390674

>>383857
remove everything except classism and this picture would be 100 percent accurate
>>

 No.390676

>>387974
BLM gets money from the Ford Foundation

So there's your "idpol left" for you.
>>

 No.391261

It will eventually consume the American left too, because American (and other northern-european and anglo) society is fundamentally obsessed with the idea of race and ancestry.
>>

 No.391523

>>391261
This is an essentialist misunderstanding , the race idpol is manufactured by the capitalist spectacle, it isn't organically generated by society.
>>388124
No it's fair to consider radlibs to be part of the neoliberal spectrum because the identities are structurally class collaborationist. The identities negate class distinctions, you can't tell whether some body is a capitalist or whether somebody is a worker based on their identity. It's not just bad from a class struggle point of view to define people by their identities, it's also morally wrong: You should only define people by their own actions not a identitarian association, because that's the only way to avoid creating prejudices.

If they could create separate identities for workers and capitalists so that it doesn't negate class, we could maybe reconsider assigning radlibs to the neoliberal spectrum. Even with that improvement, identitarian thinking would still remain degrading and tendencially prejudicial.
>>

 No.391550

>>391523
>the neoliberal spectrum
Please stop this idiocy, you are diluting a useful word to complete meaninglessness. Neoliberalism is a specific economic ideology used to justify offshoring, globalization, and financialization in response to capitalism's crisis in the '70s. It's not whatever the fuck aspect of capitalism you don't like. Just say capitalism itself if that's what you want to critique.
>>

 No.391569

File: 1626847780747.png (623.32 KB, 400x2102, zizek_money.png)

>>

 No.391623

>>377907
>There is a reason why every single group of people, everywhere on the planet and at all ages made a religion. Our brains are made in a way that give us a need for purpose, for a greater explaination.
>There is a reason why they also organized in tribes/clans/nations/whatever. Our brains are made to think in term of "us" and "them". It take effort to overcome that and only genetically engineering ourselves will change it.
Here's the reason why you are not a Marxist but a liberal piece of shit, also the reason why supporting any kind of idpol aside for realpolitik is not something healty nor beneficial.
Human did that shit not because muh brainz work that way but because of material conditions at that time made such that society was organized a certain way.
You view of humanity is idealist like every other idpoler faggot. You don't belong here
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 No.391642

File: 1626852976951.jpeg (63.38 KB, 1027x384, Epie5WUXMAAF9b2.jpeg)

Can you explain me why some "comrades" have an understanding of colonialism that has more to do with Gnosticism than Materialism?
Why colonialism has become the original sin ?
I often here even smart fellows end up in the rabbit hole with some spooky shit on "muh ancestors" "muh white people" "muh post colonial identity".
Why is colonialism worse than say slaves societies which non european countries had?
Every system (feudal, clan, slave ecc.) Has been imposed through conquering, war, competition, capitalism did the same. Colonialism is a consequence of capitalism.
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 No.391659

>>391550
Nah, it's uniquely neoliberal because it erases class distinctions and antagonisms and instead "fights for the dignity of ALL humans, regardless of race, sex, class, etc etc". Before, capitalist ideology was very self-aware of class antagonism. Now, saying worker, employee, owner, boss, etc is almost a dirty word.
Managers are there to make you flourish as much as possible, instead of telling you what to do. Etc etc. This is all neoliberalism.
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 No.391670

>>391642
It's white patronizing of "uncivilized" eg orientalism, but made woke and internalized.
Zizek has a hilarious video where he demarcates west Europe from east Europe. He says "on this side (the west) women get raped, it's horrible. But on this side (the east) women get raped but they like it". Something to that effect. idk I find it useful to think about this internalized noble savage shit.
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 No.391708

>>

 No.391778

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 No.391796

>>391642
This just sounds like a repackaged Christian concept of original sin…
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 No.391797

>>391642
Also what non-European civilizations had chattel slavery? Mine did have something askin to serfdom.
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 No.391803

>>306299
>"They looked like normal workers," and who says everything has to suit your heterosexual sensibilities
Just what the fuck does a gay man look like?
Is it San Francisco gay club circa 1990?
Is it "wear the rainbow patch" says porky?
Pretending that "homosexuals turned to idpol for answers" is disingenuous at the very best. Closer, rather, idpol is some disgusting bureaucracy that is absorbing every group of people that an American focus group traditionally wouldn't like.
Further to you last point, "racism, sexism, homophobia" are social constructs which will exist as long as race and gender exist. The problem with capitalism is that business have repeatedly been shown to inflame racial tensions more often than they alleviate. The number of Americans that hate Mexicans because they drive down wages is absurd.
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 No.392612

>[SOCIP / second-order critique of identity politics] exercises the liberal impulse to avoid situational judgment by applying rules that achieve “neutrality” through their sheer rigidity. Here, the virtue of SOCIP’s rule — that we should always reject identity as an important political consideration — is the way that it lets us disclaim responsibility for any particular injustice it creates by appealing to the greater good of fidelity to the rule. The logic here is identical to what we encounter with most liberal discourse rules. For example, the liberal rule of “identitarian deference” tells us that we should always defer to the judgment of people who belong to oppressed groups; the rationale is that even if this leads to bad outcomes on occasion, the greater good of respecting and empowering the oppressed in this way justifies rigid fidelity to the rule. In both cases, SOCIP and identitarian deference try to feed the messy world of politics into a supposedly neutral, rationalistic conflict-resolution machine of rules and procedures.
https://www.carlbeijer.com/p/the-second-order-critique-of-identity
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 No.394100

>>306746
based effort post, I will reflect on this thanks
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 No.397511

>>

 No.400380

Communism is by itself a form of identity politics though
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 No.400382

>>392612
Only good thing to come out of the Bellows fiasco.
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 No.404580

>>400380
Communism is the goal of class struggle
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 No.404873

>>306024
We should sticky this somewhere. Also gather more and better sources.
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 No.404917

Bump you
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 No.405288

>>391569
You're a fucking retard
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 No.405860

>>305967
Yes but not because the masses accept it, but because nationalism is the b word which I will not utter.
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 No.406146

>>405288
got to keep the grift going, only the top tier of activists got houses in white upper class neighborhoods

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