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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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File: 1623265927689.png (511.4 KB, 624x624, Stalin GIGA CHAD.png)

 No.308115[Last 50 Posts]

Always funny to me how Tankies are critiqued for genocide apologetics. Honestly, I don't care about these critiques and I'd argue every "genocide" is justified by the advancement of the cause of socialism.

>b-bu-but Stalin killed 60 gorjillion people!

Who cares, eat a bullet liberal
>b-bu-but Mao killed 80 gorjillion people!
Who cares, eat a bullet liberal

At the end of the day, the collective's health is the aggregate health of the individual and any individuals that perish along the way in advancing socialism have their deaths justified as being part of a long chain of events that led up to achieving communism.

Look at all of you, obsessing over gender politics and critical race theory. It's pathetic. Stalin, Lenin, and Marx would've supported your deaths wholeheartedly, and as a Tankie, I do as well. Even Marx had become too much of a pussy in his later years, which is why I call myself a Leninist-Stalinist, as opposed to a retarded ML.

Tankies are the only people in this movement to have the balls to achieve socialism BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY. The rest of you should read Stalin's Dialectical Materialism book, start working out, and read up more on the Soviet Union, outside your capitalist propaganda you've swallowed from Jacobin, DSA, and all the other liberal soyboys who pretend to be on the left.
>>

 No.308305

Not Cool.
>>

 No.308308

Fucking based, anyone who disagrees with Stalin is not a true communist and should be executed
>>

 No.308309

File: 1623271380799.jpg (99.21 KB, 720x1050, Marshal Tito, seen here do….jpg)

>>308115
Sorry, what was that Georgian babbling?
>>

 No.308312

>>308115
put me in the screencap
>>

 No.308313

I agree with you in part but you’re too much of a larper for me to want to do anything except give you a swirly.
>>

 No.308388

>>308308
Glad to see someone agrees with me. Any deviation from Stalinism is a degeneration or distractionary element.
>>308313
you're just projecting your own frail beliefs in socialism onto me there
>>

 No.308454

>>308115
>Leninist-Stalinist
my sides
>>

 No.308463

sageToo much Internet, go outside dude. You are being a cringy weirdo. Do you always act like this or you just LARP on anonymous forums as a way of coping, like it's your weird fetish?

>>308388
You are just an angloid from USA. Fuck off from OUR legacy. It belongs to RUSSIANS and EASTERN EUROPEANS.

You have nothing to do with Stalin, you don't even speak the same language as us. You don't have the same culture, you don't have the lived experience.

You have NOTHING, literally nothing in common with us. Except the fact that you read Stalin IN ENGLISH (btw) and read article on English Wikipedia about USSR or something.

Sorry, but it's the fact. It is state of the matter.

Trust me kid, eastern european tankies will spit in your face and laugh that you are just some LARPer. You can talk to some in real life, if you ever go outside of your USA shithole.

Spend your time in a productive manner. Instead of obsessing over something you have NO CONNECTION to. You can learn from us, from Stalin, sure. But the way you act is something I've only seen on the Internet, where young people (kids?) from first world are involved lmao.

It's the same thing with China. With people that "support" or talk against China, you have nothing to do with China, you larping westoid first world bitch. Leave it to Chinese people, it's their legacy and they have direct connection to it, they live in this system.

Build your own legacy instead of using our socialism as a coping mechanism for you lmao. But if you live in USA instead of LARPing I would just suggest on making a meaningful connections with people instead of obsessing over something you have no control of.

Maybe time will come, maybe not. Maybe it is not harvesting time yet. You achieve nothing and just end up being a weirdo, trust me.
>>

 No.308468

File: 1623274686425.gif (2.17 MB, 480x368, 430958390485.gif)

>>308115
>Even Marx had become too much of a pussy in his later years, which is why I call myself a Leninist-Stalinist, as opposed to a retarded ML.
>>

 No.308474

>>308463
Is this a copypasta?
>>

 No.308475


>>308463
Stalin was georgian dumbass so its not your legacy either

>>308115
Kek op is such a larper, I bet you dont say that in public
>>

 No.308477

>>308115
I-I kneel
>>

 No.308482

>>308475
I just don't tell coworkers and all my friends think I'm either an idiot or trolling them but I do say this stuff when politics is brought up. I even support North Korea and the Khmer Rouge to a degree, although I hate the religious aspects of Juche and the deindustrialization the Khmer Rouge took part in

>>308463
Ethnic Russian laying ownership to a Georgian? I'm not even an Angloid, I'm Jewish and some eastern-finnish mix
>>

 No.308485

>>308482
Do you go on a tangent about how counterrevolutionairies must be purged at all costs and how genocide is necessary for the revolution? Holy autist
>>

 No.308497

>>308485
Me and the group I belong to consider ourselves gardeners, just cultivating humanity and pulling out the bad weeds. I keep the genocide stuff to myself, although I'll post on my story about labor camps and social credit sometimes
>>

 No.308522

>>308115
Is this a trick to get queer people not to read Stalin? Is OP an idpol wrecker?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5h0bf5DzuE uploaded: Jun 8, 2021 (one day ago)

>15:54 Q: what are your recommended first couple of pieces of theory for one to read? A: …and the foundation of leninism by stalin is pretty decent as well as his short essay dialectical historical materialism


>19:10 We are across the board in favor of full rights for trans people for lgbt people of all stripes on and on. The reason that in the interwar period in the soviet union, so like between the 30s and 40s of the soviet union, the reason they had those issues with homosexuality was because at the time the medical consensus was that it was a mental disease. Nowadays we understand that this is completely wrong. Nowadays we understand that this is not a mental disease is something that's natural and it's just part of a human inclination on and on and as a result we will correct our line and apply proper analysis to the situation and realize that as the sciences developed and as we now have a better understanding of what for example, lgbt, lgbt people and their sexual inclination for example, or their gender identity or what have you, now that we understand that this is something completely natural. It is not only incorrect for a marxist to be against those things it is, how can i even say this, it's not only, it's just outright you cannot be a marxist if you completely reject these things across the board like this. So the reason that back in the day they used to do they did this thing was because of the understanding at the time now we know that it's completely different and we correct our line appropriately. I hope that answered the question if you want further clarification or you know have a further question just write it and i'll gladly answer.
>>

 No.308535

>>308522
As a closeted bisexual man, I will say right now that I wholeheartedly agree with Stalin's opinion on homosexuality. It is a bourgeoisie symptom and reducing the amount of queer people in our community only increases the power that the true proletariat have in these circles
>>

 No.308541

>>308463
>You are just an angloid from USA. Fuck off from OUR legacy. It belongs to RUSSIANS and EASTERN EUROPEANS.
Kill yourself. KILL YOURSELF, you fucking cockgobbling nationcuck. YOU WILL NEVER BE A FUCKING COMMUNIST.
>Sorry, but it's the fact. It is state of the matter.
KILL YOURSELF, YOU FUCKING COCK EATER. You probably came from pol with the intent to shoehorn your retarded nationalism WHICH STALIN EXPLICITLY OPPOSED IF YOU READ HIM into socialism like the fucking snake that you fucking are. Kill yourself. You're not fucking profound with this shitpile of a post larping as a fucking Russian. I know Russians, you stupid fucking uyghur. They would beat the everloving shit out of you for this shit.
>>

 No.308545

And fuck you too, OP, for being a complete fucking embarrassment to the rest of us. You fucking mongrel.
>>

 No.308549

>>308535
I thought you were an autist but it turns out youre just an edgy retard
>>

 No.308599

I hate biggers
>>

 No.308629

>>308545
Giga Tanks are the vanguard of leftism and are the only people dedicated to bringing about change. If you're embarrassed by this, you belong in the gulag
>>

 No.308698

>>308629
>Giga Tanks are the vanguard of leftism
you dont know what a fucking vanguard is or what it fucking does you fucking larper
>If you're embarrassed by this, you belong in the gulag
i bet you'd fall to the ground from me blowing some air in your face you weak faggot
youre fucking nothing to me fake stalinist
>>

 No.308804

>most of the replies are negative
I had too little faith in this board
>>

 No.308819

>>308629

You are deeply unfunny/
>>

 No.308883

File: 1623283465049.png (670 KB, 657x455, Screenshot_7.png)

This shit is cringe and Based Stalin would have probably shot you
>>308497
>>308482
>I'll post on my story about labor camps and social credit sometimes
>I even support North Korea and the Khmer Rouge to a degree
>the religious aspects of Juche
>I'm Jewish and some eastern-finnish mix
Alright this is either some post-ironic bit mocking what libs think communism is or this is a very lame attempt at a false flag lmao
>>

 No.308887

>>308883
who the fuck cares just talk about peru or left idpol or some shit, it beats larping by miles
>>

 No.308919

>>308883
Careful buddy, you sound like you're treading into some anti-Semitic waters there
>>

 No.308955

>>308115
>Honestly, I don't care about these critiques and I'd argue every "genocide" is justified by the advancement of the cause of socialism.

>>308308
>anyone who disagrees with Stalin is not a true communist and should be executed

Oh looks like the filthy pesudo leftist tankie decided to go full masks off.
>>308463
>Fuck off from OUR legacy. It belongs to RUSSIANS and EASTERN EUROPEANS

Oh wow, we even got a filthy fucking nationalist tankie here.


>It's the same thing with China. With people that "support" or talk against China, you have nothing to do with China, you larping westoid first world bitch. Leave it to Chinese people, it's their legacy and they have direct connection to it, they live in this system.



>Build your own legacy instead of using our socialism as a coping mechanism for you lmao. But if you live in USA instead of LARPing I would just suggest on making a meaningful connections with people instead of obsessing over something you have no control of.


Look at this false leftist go. Rambling about their Capitalist nations and how you shouldn't complain about them. How pathetic.

>>308535
>As a closeted bisexual man, I will say right now that I wholeheartedly agree with Stalin's opinion on homosexuality. It is a bourgeoisie symptom and reducing the amount of queer people in our community only increases the power that the true proletariat have in these circles


Bigotry as well!? How not surprising.

>>308629
>Giga Tanks are the vanguard of leftism

The only thing they are a Vanguard of is being a rightist cancer to the left.

Vanguards is some the dumbest shit that plagues leftist thought, not at all different than Capitalist "higher man" theory.
>>

 No.308957

>>308883
>This shit is cringe and Based Stalin would have probably shot you

>Wah, my wannabe tsar dictator would've shot you
>>

 No.308971

File: 1623287296109.png (461.59 KB, 4244x2060, 1caf141e480f14589a29123e24….png)

Never change, /leftypol/
>>

 No.309082

File: 1623292810897.mp4 (60.44 MB, 1280x720, Guardians of Eagle Hill A….mp4)

>>308115
Holy Based
>>

 No.309679

OP is a sigma male
>>

 No.309691

Stalin was one of the greatest men of the modern age.
>>

 No.309710

>>

 No.309718

It's like you decided the CIA propaganda was universally true, and then decided it was good.
>>

 No.309720

this has to be bait
>>

 No.309745

>>309718
It takes a real proletarian communist to understand that no matter what the Soviets did, it was always justified by the ends. Stalin was an exemplar of long-term thinking, of being a genuine communist, and of living in an ethical fashion as the team leader - not dictator - of the politburo. PRAISE STALIN.

>>309720
This isn't bait, but this is probably the first time you've talked to a genuine socialist you cuck

>>309726

Yes, the Soviets did get used as Zerglings but that's because they hadn't had time to get more experience in their military's leaders.
>>

 No.309748

>>308115
>Yes, the Soviets did get used as Zerglings but that's because they hadn't had time to get more experience in their military's leaders.

What the fuck do you think your doing?! You can't reply to my post in such a calm and reasonable way! It's going to make me feel bad about posting the unrelated shitpost to my post. DON'T MAKE ME FEEL BAD!
>>

 No.309749

this >>309748
was meant for >>309745
>>

 No.309757

>>308115
Yeah very edgy of you but because of these gorillionz communism is viewed the same way as nazism. Not very good propaganda for us. These gorillionz should be researched and denied if necessary.
>>

 No.309759

>>308115
>outside your capitalist propaganda you've swallowed from Jacobin, DSA, and all
Oh you were an american. Opinion discarded.
>>

 No.309766

File: 1623335887861.png (71.44 KB, 1118x612, CPUSA.png)

>>309757
These gorillions never existed. I mean, its all ridiculous bullshit numbers anyways, but even if it was true, which it isn't, that wouldn't discredit the ideology, so much as just state the expense in human lives it'd take implementing it. At that point, we just go the North Korea method and just make sure all the most dissident elements perish before anyone valuable does

>>309759
America is where communism will be achieved before anywhere else. We're the closest to post-scarcity, we don't have social democrats stagnating the revolutionary tides, and we have a heavily indebted economy suspended on a million different market bubbles. If shit is going to go haywire anywhere, its here, and once it does, totalitarian socialists will take over!
>>

 No.309769

File: 1623335985600.png (93.66 KB, 509x511, 67-676525_us-navy-images-l….png)

>>

 No.309774

>>309769

is there any significance to that flag?
>>

 No.309778

>>309774
No I just made it for fun, never bothered cleaning the line though
>>

 No.309781

>>309757
The gorillionz people refer to are also done in an extremely dishonest way, (not saying I'm surprised, obviously it's to be expected by the hegemonic nature of anti-communism) since those numbers come out of famine deaths and are also exaggerated as much as possible. Even if we considered famine deaths as directly the fault of communism from a rough estimate they can't be more than ~20 million.

The deaths from people executed (so the accurate deaths caused directly from ruling communists) are also exaggerated, estimating under 5 million people, but depending on who you're talking to you can either soft justify them or point out how all movements which seek and cause massive structural changes in society tend to be implemented through violence, and more often than not it's a necessary change for progress. Also point out how if we're judging socieconomic systems around how many people were "killed", directly or indirectly because of it, then capitalism far outnumbers the deaths caused by communism.
>>

 No.309784

Uighers like you are why I don't like to associate with tankfags even though I share 80% of their beliefs. Honestly gonna start calling myself a Khruschevist just to piss you off.
>>

 No.309790

>>309778
Oh, well, do you take commissions? My friends and I have been looking for someone to design a flag for us. I’ll pay upfront
>>

 No.309791

>>309778
Oh, well, do you take commissions? My friends and I have been looking for someone to design a flag for us. I’ll pay upfront
>>

 No.309792

MLs are stoic Alpha chads
But GIGA TANKS are stoic SIGMA chad males
>>

 No.309820

>>309792
>Incel terminology
>>>/430THz/
I'd rather be a human being than a sociopathic "sigma"
>>

 No.309822

>>309820
Cringe beta epicurean
>>

 No.309824

>>309791
I can definitely try
>>

 No.309835

>>309822
>Beta epicurean
Yes, and with zero shame.
>>

 No.309841

>>309824
Alright, just create a trip code in the following reply to this, then send off an email to [email protected] with the tripcode so I can verify its you
Its my burner account if it wasn't obvious
>>

 No.309873

File: 1623340978830.jpg (32.82 KB, 615x720, 9utbu.jpg)

>>309792
>SIGMA chad
>mfw zoomer memes
>>

 No.309878

>>308115
You're playing into a trap by accepting the right wing framing and lies about Stalin when you could just read and debunk those genocide claims very easily instead. It's not a betrayal to any of your principles to do so either. Don't play by their narratives and rules you idiot.
>>

 No.309882

File: 1623341262761.jpg (52.71 KB, 557x666, bmkj9nfyfgi11.jpg)

>>309766
>America is where communism will be achieved before anywhere else.
This is bait but america cant even into socdem. The only solution for burgers is to burn them with nuclear fire.
>>

 No.309883

>>308115
How's undergrad going?
>>

 No.309892

>>309883
entering my 8th year of undergrad, unironically. I do work full time though as a tradie and am in a serious major, so it isn't too ridiculous
>>

 No.309895

>>309892
I do not believe that for a second
>>

 No.309921

>>309895
I’ll never understand how this is such a tough thing to believe.
>>

 No.309927

File: 1623343185648.jpg (1.6 MB, 2048x2048, 63D39BE2-EFD6-40D7-8E63-7E….jpg)

>>309895
Here's the proof, I'm in my 7th year still but coming up will be my 8th
>>

 No.309935

>>309927
>GPA 2.265

Bout what i expected
>>

 No.309940

>>309935
Ahh, I work a lot and that disrupts my study time. I can't get anything done working +100 hour weeks and traveling nonstop
>>

 No.309943

>>309940
Yet you have time to bullshit around on leftypol at 3 in the morning?
>>

 No.309947

>>309943
Yeah, I got laid off two weeks ago and only have one summer class right now
>>

 No.309949

>>309947
Poor you, you should ask Ioseb Besarionis dzе Jughashvili for help
>>

 No.309951

>>309949
I'm fine, I'm just too lazy to go back to work right now. Already declined two or three jobs, since I prefer reading theory and writing
>>

 No.309957

File: 1623344203732.png (681.67 KB, 1492x842, 0vlbdvcjmrx61.png)

>>309951
>I prefer reading theory and writing
>>

 No.309963

>>309957
I'm more interested in just making socialism compatible with America, putting words to action. Mao's China was far worse than Stalin's Russia, but they both made great points we could learn from.
>>

 No.309964

>>309963
> they both made great points we could learn from.

lul
>>

 No.309971

>>309963
do you like earl browder
>>

 No.309974

>>309971
I prefer pro Jim Crow IWW
>>

 No.310009

>>309971
Reading about him right now. Seems pretty run of the mill, but I will have to go look at his writings.

>>309974
Now that I'll have to look into. IWW today is so fucking retarded
>>

 No.310015

>>309841
how do I make a tripcode
>>

 No.310016

>>310015
just do a # next to your name and type in something random, like dogbird3848 with no spaces
>>

 No.310017

>>310016
Like this?
>>

 No.310020

>>310016
Alrighty I'll send you an email
>>

 No.310058

>>309927
>Women's Swim Team
P
L
S

B
E

I
N

L
O
N
D
O
N
>>

 No.310066

Ironic, you're using "tankie" in the way libs are using it.
Stalin wasn't a tankie.
>>

 No.310067

this is such incredible bait
>>

 No.310101

>>310058
I'm American
>>310066
I look at it as taking ownership of the word, like other communities have done with pejoratives directed at them. I can call myself a tankie, you cannot if you're not one.
btw STALIN IS THE GODDAM TANK! There'd be no tankies without him, that's the equivalent of saying Jesus wasn't Christian. Like yeah, sure, but his followers rebranded themselves and followed suit
>>

 No.311412

>>310101
>1.5 GPA
>Women’s Swim Team
>Aggressive, masculine descriptions

You’re some sort of transexual, aren’t you? Because everything else you’ve posted coupled with the other three things make it clear you’ve got a severe mental illness. And it’s either transhumanist or Downs Syndrome.
>>

 No.311413

>>311412
Huh. Weird. Didn’t know this place would replace transhumanist with transhumanist.
>>

 No.311439

>>311412
She's a stalinist femdom gf.
Want.
>>

 No.312989

>>310101
No, it's like saying Deng was a Maoist.
Or Khrushchev a Stalinist.
It breaks down communication mutually intelligible communication between communists and muddies the water for easier attack by anti-communists aiming to misguide workers.
We are Marxist-Leninists.
>>

 No.318553

>>308115

Stalin didnt kill 60 million, Hitler didnt kill 11 million.

These are lies jews tell when they decide they dont like you anymore. They started this shit about stalin right about the time they got off the commie train. You guys need to fight harder against these lies.
>>

 No.318927

>>308115
Is this what happens when /pol/ chuds become leftists
>>

 No.319569

Just fucking stop. I swear most of you ""lefties"" are also psychos like rightoids. Imagine unironically justifying unnecessary deaths. Soviets didn't even achieve workplace democracy or eradicate patriarchy. If you see individuals just as means to achieve ends then you ain't no actual leftist because you're just buying into western liberal philosophy.
>>

 No.319722

>>319569
No person executed under Stalin's government was an unnecessary death
>>

 No.319729

can I play kaiserreich socialist US in substitute of reading theory?
>>

 No.319741

>>318553
To what end?
Naziism is a fucking disgrace and an even worse death machine than neoliberalism.
>>

 No.319742

>>318553
You know what, I wasn't done.

Naziism didn't kill merely 11 million people. Every death in WW2 is to be attributed to the Nazis. And thanks to the fucking idiocy of the German bourgeoisie and the insane Nazi LARPers, they gave way for the US to become the sole superpower and implement neoliberalism around the world. Those deaths are on Nazism too.

Let us also remember that Nazis killed the leftist movement in Germany, so all deaths by starvation and other retarded shit after that is also on Nazi hands.

And all the precariousness that came from neoliberalism made people have more children and hence more deaths.

The death toll of Nazis probably exceeds the billions by now.
>>

 No.319761

Based, socialism is not about everyone collectively dialating. It's about no rich faggots, no faggot worthless marketers, no nazi faggots who simp for the rich. Everyone getting the fuck over themselves and locking up all sociopaths, narcissists, and psychopaths in prison. Look at anarkids all they want is their faggot cliques to become society at large.
>>

 No.320282

File: 1623785658530.png (276.4 KB, 565x500, ancom memes vs ML memes.png)

>>

 No.320295

I my opinion being Marxist is mainly about the acceptance of homosex with POC. That's what I'm fighting for
>>

 No.320324

This

Honestly, every instance of “ethnic cleansing” that takes place in socialist states tends to be richly deserved, to purge fascist cultures and their collaborators. They would show no mercy to us, so really merely killing some of them and converting the rest to a compatible culture is a kindness
>>

 No.320327

>>319761
Faggots will probably get the bullet before the Nazis, the latter tend to be much less insufferable
>>

 No.320363

Stalin was a good man
>>

 No.322105

>>320295
No black person respects white people who are afraid of us. You sound like a coward ass faggot. It's like what Zizek has effectively said, if we can't make "racist" jokes we cannot have solidarity. Even fucking Dave Chapelle has done more for fighting racism than BLM ever did. Wokeoid faggot libshits want blackness to be an issue forever. The point is for it to become irrelevant, we have evolved past the need to address it all the fucking time. Just like your shit covered dick, I don't care it's hot to you great good.
>>

 No.322244

"Khrushchev was a Stalinist".
>>

 No.327716

File: 1624160696516.jpg (7.5 KB, 259x194, oni-tank.jpg)

>>309927
Wait, giga tank is a she?
>>

 No.327720

>>327705
Cope
>>

 No.327723

>>327705
Truth hurts, doesn’t it? Oink-oink bitch
>>

 No.327724

Little authoritarian baby
>>

 No.327779

>>308115
>I'd argue every "genocide" is justified by the advancement of the cause of socialism.

Well anon,
congrats
at least you aren't a fucking puss
-t NatSoc.
>>

 No.327792

OP is a faggot. Red terror could be awesome and tbh the higher score the better but only if it's in function of creating full communism not gay natcap opportunism. Imagine draping yourself in red and killing proles for the sake of advancing capitalist development. It's just sad.
>>

 No.328037

File: 1624186897006.jpg (392.97 KB, 1354x1970, 005.jpg)

Don't give a fuck about Stalin, but I do have a problem with MLs and their anti-democratic tendencies - they would blabber your ears off about capitalist alienation, but as soon you mention alienation of the masses from the decision process in a classical soviet states, they tie themselves in a knot explaining how it is not akshually alienation. Pure semantics and dishonesty.

MLs need to man the fuck up to their mistakes and take the problem of democratic decision making mechanisms seriously, it should be on their top priority list, not on the fucking bottom in the far future with new homo soveticus or whatever. When I say MLs are stuck in the past, I don't mean that they like ancient soviet history or something, I mean that they use the same old tired organizational model with some mandatory old fart at the top. Keep doing the same shit over and over expecting different results, idiots.
>>

 No.328040

File: 1624187018276.png (108.43 KB, 347x367, bordiga(2).png)

>>328037
>Anti-democratic tendencies
Based?
>>

 No.328053

File: 1624188251226.jpg (18.05 KB, 599x315, cringe.jpg)

>>308463
Cringe, dude.
>>

 No.328718

>>328037

Well I mean its not alienation. "alienation from the decision process" is just not democracy. Don't try to insert marxist jargon into your argument where it doesn't belong to bolster it.

Show why you think the SU wasn't democratic and propose an alternative instead, but it sounds like you are critiquing a version of it you made in your head.
>>

 No.328744

>>328037
>Don't give a fuck about Stalin, but I do have a problem with MLs
<Angry_anime_girl.jpg
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 No.328820

File: 1624224531841.jpg (243.38 KB, 812x810, 1621984038962.jpg)

>>308482
>I'm Jewish
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 No.329137

File: 1624244467055.jpg (439.56 KB, 2048x1484, 025.jpg)

>>328718
>Well I mean its not alienation. "alienation from the decision process" is just not democracy. Don't try to insert marxist jargon into your argument where it doesn't belong to bolster it.
That's what I'm talking about, pure semantics. It is alienation from production process in both cases. In the soviet theories of socialism it was postulated that social necessity is determined by the planning organs. And if you look at the concrete planning process you would see that it was a kind of consensus arriving process between various government bodies, industrial ministries, party organs, etc. and nowhere in this process there was a robust feedback mechanism from the general public, or any kind of significant popular control, especially at the top levels.
As an example, Gosplan all through the 70s and 80s made planned consumer demand reports, and they all were ignored simply because general consumers didn't take part in this consensus arriving mechanism, so their interests were ignored as well and shoved down the priority list behind the local interests of various countless government bureaucratic bodies.

That's what I hate about MLs, they downplay or outright ignore obvious practice-proven drawbacks of their proposed political system.
Your political system is SHIT. Why do you think people in DDR were protesting? Because they wanted more gibs? No, because the political system was alienating shit, with general public feeling like they had little to no influence on political process. People grew tired of this shit in both USSR and DDR, it was a POLITICAL crisis. You can't just ignore this shit and wave it away.

>Show why you think the SU wasn't democratic

Just look at the resulting political crisis, or at the decision making process at the top state levels. And in general look at "the spirit of the time", what gripes people had, to what sentiments Gorbachev appealed. Heck, just look at the slogan of perestroika "Glasnost" - transparency, openness, publicity, no more censorship.
To ignore these tendencies is to be intentionally clueless.

>propose an alternative instead

I don't know, some system of direct democracy and representation with sortition or whatever. Something DIFFERENT and MORE EFFICIENT. Not this same old tired shit that fails time and again in liberal democracies and classical soviet states alike.

This problem of democratic control is a MAJOR problem, and it should be taken seriously if MLs don't want to fail AGAIN.
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 No.329153

>>329137
>transparency, openness, publicity, no more censorship
Thats kind of my point. You are starting with it not being a democracy and working backwards. Does the above apply to all times in the USSR or only the end? When did it change and why?

>direct democracy and representation with sortition

Do you think the leaders were just stupid or mean? How would changing the way representatives are elected effect the material conditions of social production/reproduction?

> government bodies, industrial ministries, party organs, etc. and nowhere in this process there was a robust feedback mechanism from the general public

These people were democratically elected and subject to recall.

The collapse itself was a coup. What led to that is a serious question and agree that its something we need to tackle, but I don't think the problem was a lack of "democracy".
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 No.329167

>>308463
holy lol
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 No.329171

>>329153
>You are starting with it not being a democracy and working backwards.
No, I started by analyzing an actual decision making process not on paper but in reality, and concluded that it was not democratic.

>Does the above apply to all times in the USSR or only the end?

It applies throughout all of the history of soviet planning.

>Do you think the leaders were just stupid or mean?

No? I think they acted in their self-interests in undemocratic political system.

>How would changing the way representatives are elected effect the material conditions of social production/reproduction?

How would a decision making process of what to produce in a consciously planned system of production effect the material conditions of production/reproduction? Are you retarded?

>These people were democratically elected and subject to recall.

BULLSHIT. Why they didn't recall Gorbachev then? General public didn't have any way to recall general secretary or whatever top dog.

>The collapse itself was a coup.

Ok, you're a retarded conspiratard. There was no coup, Gorbachev came to the top through the internal official party process.

>but I don't think the problem was a lack of "democracy"

That attitude is why I would always agitate against MLs and point out their historical errors, point to USSR downfall and to North Korea undemocratic practices. Every time an ML opens their mouth, I would point out "If you want to look at what their system would be like in practice, look no further than North Korea, that is the kind of "democracy" they promise you!"
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 No.329194

>>329171
What is democratic then? Can you give me some historical examples?

>It applies throughout all of soviet history

Okay so what was it that made it undemocratic from the beginning? Why do you talk about Gorbachev and not Lenin or Stalin?

>How would a decision making process

Please explain how changing leadership would effect the conflict with NATO.

>Why they didn't recall Gorbachev then?

Thats a really good questions. Probably imo something to do with apathy. We should investigate why that was the case.

>There was no coup

Okay what do you call it when there is a referendum that the majority votes for and then the state goes against the peoples vote and imposed its own will by military force?

>That attitude

I'm not an ML I just think you are being emotional, not explaining yourself well or maybe using hyperbole. I just disagree that the USSR was never democratic. I think at the least you have to admit that 1917-1920. 1924-1945, the sino-soviet split, Hungary and the tanks, were all different periods. Most people at least pick a period where they think democracy was subverted. Kronstadt wasn't even until 1921.
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 No.329325

>>329194
>Can you give me some historical examples?
Athens

>Okay so what was it that made it undemocratic from the beginning?

The characteristics of militarized underground party organization.

>Please explain how changing leadership would effect the conflict with NATO.

USSR achieved self-sufficiency after industrialization. NATO only factors in the military spending.

>Probably imo something to do with apathy.

80s were not characterized by political apathy, quite the opposite. Political apathy was a characteristic of Brezhnev era.

>Okay what do you call it when there is a referendum that the majority votes for and then the state goes against the peoples vote and imposed its own will by military force?

By the time referendum was taking place USSR was already de facto dissolved. What I'm telling is that you can't call it coup, when Gorbachev came to power through official channels, like Chernenko before him, and Andropov before him.

>I just disagree that the USSR was never democratic.

You have some stretched definition of democracy. A simple litmus test, could ordinary people, not a thin strata of party apparatchiks, sack general secretary? No? Then sorry, but that's not an actual democracy.

>Most people at least pick a period where they think democracy was subverted.

That period was the civil war.
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 No.329327

>>329325
>Athens
Was a slave society, but I think I get what you mean. Sortition should be taken seriously and required for certain types of positions.

>>329325
>The characteristics of militarized underground party organization.
>the civil war.
Is it a particular decision in the war? How do you form a resistance openly if its illegal? Are you against revolution?
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 No.329338

>>329327
>Sortition should be taken seriously and required for certain types of positions.
Just don't expect this process to be smooth. Athenian politics were dynamic and turbulent, so don't expect some utopian harmony or whatever.

>Is it a particular decision in the war?

No, the logic of wartime in general runs contrary to democracy. Roman Republic dictators were chosen in the times of wartime.
What I'm saying is that soviets lost their momentum in the civil war.

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