Socialist Patriotism Anonymous 2021-10-31 (Sun) 20:58:20 No. 574951 [View All]
Despite what most baizuo think, there is no contradiction between being both a socialist and a patriot in America, regardless of its origin as a settler-colonialist venture, and its current status as the leading imperialist power. Many baizuo have incorrectly gone so far as to equate patriotism and nationalism, claiming that for socialists, patriotism represents an affront to the principles of internationalism and that socialists that speak in patriotic terms are both inconsistent and on the road to red-brownism. This can't be further from the truth. The fact of the matter is that for all we can say of its founding, America has a mighty and authentically progressive tradition that has been present from the beginning. The war for independence threw off the imperial yoke and founded a republic that for the first time, based itself on the same enlightenment ideals that would be weaponized in the forthcoming anti-slavery crusade, and the struggle against European colonialism worldwide. The baizou anarcho-gonzaloist burn-it-all-down approach, on the other hand, has done nothing but isolate and alienate the left from the people of America since the 1960s. In spite of these autistic brain worms parroted by the baizuo, the reality of the American people is not going anywhere. The actual relationship between patriotism and socialism historically becomes clear once the track record of the 19th and 20th centuries are examined, showing that socialists and communists have consistently been patriotic and deeply attuned to the national realities of the countries they hail from. The only reason why the question why patriotism has now come to the fore is because up until recently it has been a given. It is still a given in the vast majority of countries today. It is only in America, and those under the influence of it's empire, where those under the sway of American exceptionalism remain dominant on the left, that baizuo imagine they can elevate themselves above national realities, and speak on the behalf of an abstract working class, uprooted and estranged from it's particular national reality. Historically speaking, it is a plain and obvious fact that communists were always patriotic, rooted in the national traditions of their respective countries. Socialism in America will have American characteristics. By assuming that only the third world proletariat is capable of attaining a revolutionary character, so-called Maoists (read: Ma-autists) in America commit the inverse error of western social democrats of the early 20th century. Both share a lack of dialectical thinking, because they assume that America and her people are an "exception". They might label socialism with American characteristics "Browderism", but it is in fact they who are the Browderists, if only inversely. Marx, who spoke of the unity of working people from all countries in The Communist Manifesto, states in the same work that:>Though not in substance, yet in form, the struggle of the proletariat with the bourgeoisie is at first a national struggle. Twenty-seven years later in his Critique of the Gotha Programme, Marx stated:>It is altogether self-evident that […] the working class must organize itself at home as a class and that its own country is the immediate arena of its struggle. Mao stated:>Can a Communist, who is an internationalist, at the same time be a patriot? We hold that he not only can be but also must be. I love my country, I love my people. I am a patriot.
556 posts and 100 image replies omitted. Click reply to view. Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 00:32:59 No. 668666
>>668626 >rootless cosmopolitan Lmao, that was directed against those denigrating the USSR, Soviet life, proletarian internationalism, communist hegemony, against those who aimed to present the filth of NATO countries as superior. Such creatures were rightly hounded.
https://espressostalinist.com/2017/08/20/bill-bland-the-soviet-campaign-against-cosmopolitanism-1947-1952/ >>668642 Stalin was against nationalism in all its forms.
People who think Stalin was a nationalist have gobbled up the bourgeois-fascist portrayal of him after 1945. Before that he was presented the opposite way, which was also false.
We're never going to be able to outdo the bourgeoisie on the patriotism/nationalism front, and why should we? As a proletarian my interests and affinities are with the proletarians of all lands. Communists must always put proletarian internationalism first, not their countries. And the key thing here is that they aren't our countries. I may have a British passport, I may have been born here, I may have had all my known ancestors going back hundreds of years being born here, but it's not my country, not really. It is the country of the British bourgeoisie, and I want nothing more for them to be wiped out in red terror.
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 00:35:06 No. 668671
>>668666 >Lmao, that was directed against those denigrating the USSR, Soviet life, proletarian internationalism, communist hegemony, against those who aimed to present the filth of NATO countries as superior. Such creatures were rightly hounded. based Stalin for hating the rootless cosmopolitans
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 00:39:11 No. 668678
>>668666 >Stalin was against nationalism in all its forms. so here
>>668587 you say
<Imagine wanting to share the flags, symbols, culture of the bourgeoisie >culture of the bourgeoisie >Stalin was against nationalism you realize the thread is about Socialist Patriotisms right?
>People who think Stalin was a nationalist never said that. You're arguing against a point no one has made.
>We're never going to be able to outdo the bourgeoisie on the patriotism/nationalism frontthis is wrong. Only socialists can out do the bourgeoisies on patriotism because only socialist can direct the economy to favor the patriot rather then profits. The bourgeoisies can only give lip service to patriotism while enslaving the nation to capital
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 00:44:16 No. 668682
>>668678 >only socialist can direct the economy to favor the patriot But I'm not interested in making the economy favour flag-waving jingos, I want to fulfill my needs and the needs of the entire proletariat.
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 00:48:44 No. 668690
>>668682 >neo liberal view of patriotism rather then the successful marxist leninist view >"i don't want to direct the economy to favor the people" mask off i guess
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 00:55:07 No. 668699
>>668690 The "people" is a nebulous, anti-Marxist term.
We are not for the "people", we are for the proletariat, the untrammelled dictatorship of the proletariat over the bourgeoisie, on a worldwide scale until the revolutionary process is complete and a communist mode of production established.
Marxist-Leninists are successful, not for being national flag waving cretins, but for being proletarian revolutionaries who correctly understand the needs of the proletariat, give organisation to class struggle, and carry out successful struggles.
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 01:00:15 No. 668710
>>668699 >The "people" is a nebulous, anti-Marxist term. Where'd you get that one from? Your ass?
>We are not for the "people", we are for the proletariat You're arguing semantics now. Also the proletariat are the most patriotic the Bourgogne are not
>Marxist-Leninists are successful, not for being national flagMarxist leninism is successful because it successfully tapped into the patriotism of the people better then any capitalist ideology could
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 01:05:21 No. 668720
>>668710 I get it from the rich anti-revisionist tradition of Marxism-Leninism.
Khrushchev defined the USSR as a "state of the whole people". But that is bourgeois-peasant dreck; the USSR as the 1936 constitution stated was a proletarian dictatorship and this must remain in place until the final worldwide victory of communism. Not the slightest concession to the bourgeoisie, the dreg remnants of the nobility and clergy, or even to the backwards/rich peasants.
The proletariat are also not the most patriotic lmao. The proletariat is where communist ideas are the strongest. This sort of thinking is like the Russian narodniks and SRs who worshipped the backwards peasants in the 19th century. Even if nationalism was rife among the proletariat (it isn't) it would mean nothing more than the presence of false bourgeois ideology.
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 01:13:18 No. 668731
>>668720 So where do you counter anything I said lmao
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 01:34:07 No. 668765
>>668731 What do you want me to counter?
Proletarian internationalism is a higher cause than patriotism in bourgeois capitalist states. End of story.
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 01:35:15 No. 668769
>>668765 Leninhat how do you feel about Dmitrov?
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 01:40:04 No. 668773
>>668769 A good communist, undoubtedly of a far higher grade than all the Khrushchevite-Titoist shits. His defence at Leipzig is brilliant. But he made a mistake with the Popular Front theory.
There must always be proletarian hegemony and dominance, if we do have to work with non-communists for whatever reason.
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 02:48:14 No. 668841
>>668765 >than patriotism in bourgeois capitalist states but you've been ignoring the actual topic of Socialist Patriotism as per the OP and trying to argue against "bourgeois patriotism" or Nationalism which has nothing to do with the thread End of story.
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 02:58:29 No. 668846
>>668841 The OP is talking of being a "socialist and a patriot in America" and "I love my country, I love my people. I am a patriot". Reeks of fascism. America belongs to the American bourgeoisie.
Here's what I love; the proletariat, communism and revolution.
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 03:03:33 No. 668856
>>668846 >The OP is talking of being a "socialist and a patriot in America" and "I love my country, I love my people. I am a patriot". Reeks of fascism. America belongs to the American bourgeoisie. Again the topic is Socialist patriotism in America, however you seem to want to argue against "bourgeois patriotism" and nationalism which has nothing to do with the topic. If this really hurts your feelings why are you in thread? Especially when what your arguing against isn't part of the topic.
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 14:45:36 No. 669280
>>668856 America isn't the USSR lol, it's an imperialist bourgeois dictatorship that's a cunt hair away from fascism.
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 14:51:06 No. 669289
>>669280 >America isn't the USSR lol Neither was Russia in 1914 when Lenin wrote this:
<Is a sense of national pride alien to us, Great-Russian class-conscious proletarians? Certainly not! We love our language and our country, and we are doing our very utmost to raise her toiling masses (i.e., nine-tenths of her population) to the level of a democratic and socialist consciousness. To us it is most painful to see and feel the outrages, the oppression and the humiliation our fair country suffers at the hands of the tsar’s butchers, the nobles and the capitalists. We take pride in the resistance to these outrages put up from our midst, from the Great Russians; in that midst having produced Radishchev,[3] the Decembrists[4] and the revolutionary commoners of the seventies[5]; in the Great-Russian working class having created, in 1905, a mighty revolutionary party of the masses; and in the Great-Russian peasantry having begun to turn towards democracy and set about overthrowing the clergy and the landed proprietors. <We remember that Chernyshevsky, the Great-Russian democrat, who dedicated his life to the cause of revolution, said half a century ago: “A wretched nation, a nation of slaves, from top to bottom—all slaves."[6] The overt and covert Great-Russian slaves (slaves with regard to the tsarist monarchy) do not like to recall these words. Yet, in our opinion, these were words of genuine love for our country, a love distressed by the absence of a revolutionary spirit in the masses of the Great-Russian people. There was none of that spirit at the time. There is little of it now, but it already exists. We are full of national pride because the Great-Russian nation, too, has created a revolutionary class, because it, too, has proved capable of providing mankind with great models of the struggle for freedom and socialism, and not only with great pogroms, rows of gallows, dungeons, great famines and great servility to priests, tsars, landowners and capitalists. <We are full of a sense of national pride, and for that very reason we particularly hate our slavish past (when the landed nobility led the peasants into war to stifle the freedom of Hungary, Poland, Persia and China), and our slavish present, when these selfsame landed proprietors, aided by the capitalists, are loading us into a war in order to throttle Poland and the Ukraine, crush the democratic movement in Persia and China, and strengthen the gang of Romanovs, Bobrinskys and Purishkeviches, who are a disgrace to our Great-Russian national dignity. Nobody is to be blamed for being born a slave; but a slave who not only eschews a striving for freedom but justifies and eulogises his slavery (e.g., calls the throttling of Poland and the Ukraine, etc., a “defence of the fatherland” of the Great Russians)—such a slave is a lickspittle and a boor, who arouses a legitimate feeling of indignation, contempt, and loathing.It's pretty clear that what Lenin is describe here is also what most socpats, at least here on leftypol, are endorsing.
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 15:16:59 No. 669314
>>669289 There's a difference between that and the blind "I love my country" sentiment I see in this thread.
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 16:42:12 No. 669403
>>669280 >>669314 sounds like you're just whining about the US at this point
can you actually make a coherent argument about the topic of the actual thread or not?
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 16:48:44 No. 669408
>>669403 You can maybe have American patriotism when the proletarian dictatorship is established in the USA. But not currently. American communists need to raise the banner or class struggle, proletarian rule, armed struggle, and smashing the US state machine, not patriotism.
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 16:56:09 No. 669417
>>669408 You can have patriotism for the US even before the proletarian dictatorship just as all Marxists states have
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 17:11:01 No. 669430
>>669417 If you want to devolve into chauvinism yeah.
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 17:14:40 No. 669434
>>669430 and that's true why? because you don't like the US? lmao
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 17:16:38 No. 669436
>>669434 Dring dring patriotism is a class collaborationist and proletariat dividing feeling, of course it leads to reactionary stuff and retarded chauvinism
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 17:19:42 No. 669442
>>669436 >Dring dring patriotism is a class collaborationist and proletariat dividing feeling, of course it leads to reactionary stuff and retarded chauvinism and again you're completely ignoring the topic of this thread, arguing against "class collaboration" which has nothing to do with Socialist Patriotism
so once against why would Socialist Patriotism devolve into chauvinism?
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 17:21:58 No. 669444
>>669442 >why would Socialist Patriotism devolve into chauvinism? Because of historical experience. See world war one
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 17:27:10 No. 669446
>>669444 <why would Socialist Patriotism devolve into chauvinism? >historical experience. >See world war one how is a war fought between capitalists powers somehow an argument against Socialist Patriotism?
sounds like you're arguing against bourgeois patriotism or nationalism again, not Socialist Patriotism
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 17:28:16 No. 669447
"Baizuo" being an insult used exclusively by dengists makes it absolutely hilarious and not effective as an insult at all.
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 17:29:01 No. 669448
>>669434 It means making workers susceptible to bourgeois ideology and nationalism. We don't need that for revolution, we need an articulation of our class interests.
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 17:30:13 No. 669449
>>669448 You're arguing against bourgeois patriotism and nationalism again please stay on topic
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 17:30:20 No. 669450
>>669446 >how is a war fought between capitalists powers somehow an argument against Socialist Patriotism? Read a book, socialist patriots supported the war.
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 17:32:15 No. 669451
>>669449 Under capitalism you're never going to be able to beat the bourgeoisie for patriotism and there's no need to really.
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 17:36:45 No. 669452
>>669450 >Read a book, socialist patriots supported the war. again it doesn't seem like you're arguing against Socialist Patriotism but socialists who are patriots that supported a war 100 years ago
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 17:38:25 No. 669453
>>669451 Wrong. Only socialists can beat the bourgeoisie for patriotism because only socialism can direct the economy to work for the people and not for profits.
The bourgeoisie fail the patriots because their economy is a slave to capital
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 17:38:47 No. 669454
>>669452 You know the fact that the third international was created because socialist patriots betrayed their class for their country tells me that those new social patriots are either ignorant or full on glowies trying to divide once more the working class. Fed identity politics, occupy was wrecked by same bullshit, discourse is a little different but tactic is the same at the onset of a another massive war.
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 17:40:55 No. 669456
>>669454 You're arguing against socialists supporting the bourgeois patriotism of their day.
Your logic falls apart as soon as socialist patriotism enters the scene
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 17:43:54 No. 669460
>>669456 >my patriotism is totally different guys sure agent
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 21:37:03 No. 669679
>>669463 NTA, but that doesn't make sense, as those Marxist Leninist violated the patriotism of their day. They demanded the death of the old, and the upholding of the emerging new, even if that necessitated the death of the previous nation state and it's complete replacement by a new socialist one, utterly divorced from the very conception of a "nation state".
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 21:40:51 No. 669683
If you want to wave the national flag and call yourself a patriot, then who cares. But don't confuse that with power, and it certainly won't save you from getting thrown in prison by the cops if anyone here ever posed a serious enough threat.
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 21:44:40 No. 669688
>>669463 >>669679 Also, we literally lost, as we failed to be as voracious, collaborative, and aggressive as emerging neoliberal capitalism, and for that the world was swallowed whole and we lost everything. While the bourgeoisie took node after node, we squabbled amounts ourselves about "sovereignty" and "nationhood", while the bourgeoisie gave no care for such things and took what they saw as theirs.
Anonymous 2022-01-02 (Sun) 17:34:42 No. 670883
>>669679 but your post doesn't make since the Communists upheld the patriotism of what it meant to be Russian more so then the tsar could
Anonymous 2022-01-02 (Sun) 17:35:26 No. 670885
>>669688 >Also, we literally lost sure but that wasn't caused by the patriotism of those states
Anonymous 2022-01-02 (Sun) 22:48:39 No. 671268
>>669453 The capitalist economy works for the capitalists, not faceless "profits". It is not a faceless system, it is governed by a class; the bourgeoisie.
Anonymous 2022-01-02 (Sun) 22:52:25 No. 671275
>>671268 And it's not the economy which is a "slave" to capital, proletarians are wageslaves of capitalists.
sage Anonymous 2022-01-13 (Thu) 12:59:08 No. 689612
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