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File: 1637452137902.png (254.67 KB, 800x750, CyberSocCatALT.png)

 No.609222[View All]

Previous thread >>392953 hit bump limit. Someone please archive it!

READING
http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/
For a complete reading list, see: https://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/2020/05/01/two-reading-lists/

Cockshott's Patreon, YouTube and blogs
https://www.patreon.com/williamCockshott/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVBfIU1_zO-P_R9keEGdDHQ
https://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/
http://paulcockshott.co.uk/

Videos torrent archive
Here's the torrent with all of Paul Cockshott's YouTube channel videos up to 27/10/2020 (i.e. Eliminating inequality):
Magnet link:
magnet:?xt=urn:btih:d5e5cc7a91228fef2ea213f816b27cfea8185961&dn=Paul%5FCockshott%5F%28October%5F27th%5F2020%29&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.opentrackr.org%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2F9.rarbg.to%3A2710%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2F9.rarbg.me%3A2710%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.internetwarriors.net%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.leechers-paradise.org%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.cyberia.is%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fexodus.desync.com%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=http%3A%2F%2Fexplodie.org%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fp4p.arenabg.ch%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=http%3A%2F%2Ftracker1.itzmx.com%3A8080%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker3.itzmx.com%3A6961%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.zerobytes.xyz%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.tiny-vps.com%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.ds.is%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fopen.stealth.si%3A80%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fopen.demonii.si%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.torrent.eu.org%3A451%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fretracker.lanta-net.ru%3A2710%2Fannounce&tr=http%3A%2F%2Fopen.acgnxtracker.com%3A80%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.moeking.me%3A6969%2Fannounce
Torrent file:
https://anonymousfiles.io/RileL0Sn/

This thread is for the discussion of cybersocialism, the planning of the socialist economy by computerized means, including discussions of related topics and of course the great immortal scientist himself, WILLIAM PAUL COCKSHOTT.

Archives of previous thread
1) https://archive.is/uNCEY
2) https://web.archive.org/web/20201218152831/https://bunkerchan.xyz/leftypol/res/997358.html
3) https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1092975361
4) YOUR LINK HERE
357 posts and 59 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.692371

>>692160
>why would people become programers, doctors, engineers etc.
because they want to?
>Is paying people while they go to school , genuine interest, or some sort of ideological sense of duty to the society really enough resolve this?
paying people for getting educated is one way yes. paul argues this in one paper. I forget which one
the only reason you'd need to pay people more is if there's a shortage of people willing to do some job. for example sewage

 No.692573

>>685348
>>the gobernment should let shitty businesses fail rather than bailing them out
What is this nu-ancap/libertarian bullshit? I had the impression that they thought the government was useless/incompetent at everything.


>is this dogwhistling to antisemites?

It would highly ironic if so, given Mises was joo lol.

 No.696815

File: 1642516611053.png (986.94 KB, 1228x625, Chad.PNG)

I was thinking about making a simulation of Cockshott's economy with Godot Engine, but some problems arose in my head:
Normal scenario, how things are supposed to work if I understood it well:
>factory of 200 workers produces 100 trucks
>they report 10k hours of labour time in total including labor cost of raw materials, energy ecc.
>So every truck costs 10k/100 = 100 hours to produce
>the state taxes correspond to 20% of the labour time
>the state gives 10k * 0.8 = 8000 hours to the factory (the labour time reported minus taxes) and distribute the 100 trucks on the market for 100 hours each
>now the workers decide to keep 80% of the labour time in the factory to make more trucks and automate the most boring tasks
>Assuming that every worker worked for an equal amount of time, every worker gets the remaining 20%, so (8000 * 0.2)/200 = 8 hours to live with

Problem 1
>next cycle in the factory council workers decide that 8 hours are not enough, so they decide to produce 100 trucks, while reporting 20k hours of work so that they get more labour vouchers and get more goods
>now the price of the trucks skyrockets while the quantity is the same, the workers get paid for work they didn't do
>imagine if every factory does this out of greed
>labour prices keep increasing indefinitely, together with wages, triggering a never-ending inflation
How does the state keep track of labour time of each good if individual fatorie shouldn't report it?

Problem 2, new scenario: let's assume workers are honest about the labour time reported
>state buys 100 trucks, but only 20 get bought
>the state tells the factory to produce less
>less trucks produced = less labour = less labour vouchers
>workers can switch to another factory, hard but possible with free vocational training
>but fail to do so because society reaches a point where it needs fewer goods, so less labour is needed so less vouchers are given. The cause may be overproduction or a high level of automation that reduces production time and therefore factories' income in form of labour vouchers
>now unemployed workers cannot afford goods
>thay need to be given vouchers for work they didn't do or they will starve, which means emitting labour vouchers out of nothing until the overproduction crisis is averted
Let's say that the state takes away the power to regulate production. This way only if the price of trucks rises the state orders more trucks from existing factories or expands production capability. Let's say that the price rises from 100 hours to 110 hours. Do the factories get 100 hours for every truck, or 110 hours?
What if the opposite happens, demand of trucks goes down, so the price decline to 80 hours per truck. Now the state orders less trucks, but this create less vouchers for workers and so they can get less goods. What if this happens in the general economy, creating unemployment? What if the cause is automation, rendering the crisis chronic and perpetual?

What is to be done?

 No.696871

have sex

 No.696896

>>696871
but I'll stop reading Cockshott if that happens

 No.696901

File: 1642520691415.jpg (122.29 KB, 873x1200, 1618039323659.jpg)

>>696871
Ok
Come and Cockshot me uwu

 No.696903

>>692160
Seriously? You do not ask why someone will become a worker since obviously, if he will not, there will not be enough food. Any worker would like to work less, it is better to engineer something that will reduce your necessary work time. With med docs, it is not like you can live with pain or live long.
As you see, no duty, nothing like that is involved, it is all required.

I imagine that under socialism studying does imply you will have to do this full time the whole life. As I recall, Cockshott does not talk at all on any reduction in division of labor or necessary time reduction. But this seriously change the system, how work is done and seen. Studying is fun, part time is fun, full time is not.

 No.696904

File: 1642521007195.jpg (17.21 KB, 212x120, paul cocks.jpg)


 No.696906

>>696815
you should email paul about it, he always answers my mails

 No.696909

>>696901
nooo stop being cute, this is a cockshott topic, no sex allowed

 No.696919

Should I read How the World Works before Captial?

 No.696927

>>696815
What ?
You could just reduce the workday as a response to productivity increases, and all these problems go away.

 No.696929

>>696927
This is the point.
If you reduce the workday, don't you get less labour vouchers and so you can afford less stuff?

 No.696934

>>696903
Im not sure i understand your point about full time, but what if you could have something similar to the gig economy, there could be an app through which people could be notified about job opportunities which they could use to earn extra credits ?

 No.696941

>>696934
Not him, but a gig economy like system only works with easily automatable jobs.
You can't do that with high-skill job. Also a 50 yo who have been welding plates for all his life can't learn to code overnight.

 No.696944

>>696919
it's an easier read than Capital and summarizes much of it. but relying on secondary material is risky since you won't get the full picture Marx is trying to get across
t. has read Capital vol 1-2 and How the World Works

>>696815
this kind of cheating can be detected via statistical methods

>>696871
>>696901
weird sex with cockshott

 No.696945

>>696929
No because if efficiency is increasing across the whole economy then people will be getting paid the same number of vouchers for less work

 No.696948

>>696929
>If you reduce the workday, don't you get less labour vouchers and so you can afford less stuff?
yes but the value of goods also goes down

 No.696953

>>696945
How do you quantify efficiency?
The only way around would be to pay workers for the work done by robots, which would be a bigger incentive to automate. But if production time decreases, the amount of labour vouchers decreases, or they will stop representing labour time.

>>696948
Ho do you prevent what happens in a capitalist economy, where overproduction causes a decrease in prices, while incomes decreases faster than prices creating poverty?

 No.696955

>>696953
I mean I personally don't put much stock into Cockshott so maybe I'm a bad person to answer that question, but IMO labour vouchers should be the same (or nearly the same) for each person to prevent inequality, some jobs are harder than others so some people should be able to work less hours for the same pay. I don't think a labour voucher should be tied directly to the value of one hour of any particular labour.

 No.696968

>>696955
That's reasonable

 No.697040

>>696955
>some jobs are harder than others so some people should be able to work less hours for the same pay. I don't think a labour voucher should be tied directly to the value of one hour
No, 1 labor voucher has to be 1 hour exactly, or else it will create inefficiency in the process of optimizing the economy. The labor vouchers are tied to time specifically because the amount of time that society spends on economic tasks is something that we want to optimize, and you can't go and change the numbers around without screwing that up. We can still take into account that different types of labor are harder and for these people everybody will pay a tax in labor hours into a common fund to pay out a hard-labor-bonus or something like that.

There is however another reason for locking in 1 labor voucher to 1 hour of time. The risk is that somebody might try to cheat the system. Maybe if they are in a position of administrative power or something. If you don't make labor time identical for everybody, there will be people that will try to raise their personal hourly rate, and that will make them labor aristocrats that will eventually try to use rate differentials to restart private capital accumulation. The way over a tax funded labor bonus pot, makes it very transparent who gets the extra payment, and the potential for corrupt apparatchiks undermining the system is negated.

 No.697046

>>697040
How do you reliably measure the time of a production process while avoiding inflated reports by enterprises to get more vouchers?

 No.697049

>>696934
By full time I mean 8+ hours/day, specially if it is 12 h/day, fuck it. You can still be useful if you will work only 4 hours/day, may be even less in some cases. 4 h/day leaves lots of free time for doing what else you want. Why the reduction of time possible, I look at growing number of bullshit jobs and some people could be pulled into medical field or to factories or they can exchange jobs, some days at a factory, some days somewhere else. But this will be stable, no need to constantly look for a gig job.

>>696941
Hm, there is Upwork - gig jobs for programmers and what else can be done from home. The gig economy, I think mostly why it is negative, is that it is not stable, you may have a job today but not necessary tomorrow and you have very little savings. And you spend lots of time looking for gig jobs and if you compute hour rate including this time, well.. but may be this can be solved since some time is spent talking with potential employers and this could be reduced. Frequently you just filter bullshit jobs, they could have better filtering tools.

 No.697063

>>697046
>How do you reliably measure the time of a production process while avoiding inflated reports by enterprises to get more vouchers?
That's asking the wrong question, the system already has the optimization function for labor-time per task. If there is a work-place that starts using or reporting way more labor-time compared to before or compared to other similar workplaces doing similar things, that will trigger the system optimization loop. It's primary function is to find work-places that use inefficient or outdated production methods to help them upgrade and as side effect it also catches cheaters that fudge reports. In theoretical terms, it looks for deviations from average socially necessary labor-time in production.

 No.697104

>>697063
Does Towards a New Socialism explain this mechanism more in detail?
I currently don't see how is that possible if it literally rewards industries that take more time by giving more vouchers?

 No.697129

>>697104
>Does Towards a New Socialism explain this mechanism more in detail?
Yes but the details are spread all over
>I currently don't see how is that possible if it literally rewards industries that take more time by giving more vouchers?
Upgrades for production like better machine-tools are not "financed" with labor vouchers. Labour vouchers are only used for buying end-products, you could say only consumers use it. Capital-goods as well as resources are direct material inputs and outputs in production that are indirectly allocated in central planning.

 No.697208

Would a Deng-tier economy be a prerequisite, how does it synergize with dengism?

I say this because all the high speed rail and superfast internet would come handy for real time information systems.

Cybersin was a bit limited in scope but it seemed to work rather well, so 70s chile infrastructure would be the cutout line?

I'm asking mostly for what could be done in african nations.

 No.697350

>>697208
Yes. Especially if the country is underdeveloped.
You cannot jump overnight from neoliberism in the West or whatever they have in Africa without building up basic infrastructure and utilities, which should be handled by the state. Also a highly digitalized economy still requires experience by the government to handle it, so having the state owning major industry helps "training" it to manage a cybersocialist economy. A dengist, dirigist or state capitalist approach to welfare helps building confidence of the people towards socialist policies, which is strongly required as the transition to socialism demands decades, during which the political establishment needs a secure power and support to plan ahead for the long term.
I believe that the step between dengism and socialism are coops, which really put the means of production in the hands of the workers. Of course it's not enough as it will requires to move on from the profit motives, but still necessary to breed the cooperative mentality and the legal framework.
Such a radical step needs a strong state, politically and economically, to create such a framework, taxing or turn private enterprises into coops.
I would say that whatever China is doing is a necessary step in the context of the rate of profite still positive.

 No.697370

File: 1642545570985.jpeg (195.5 KB, 824x1160, FDn0N8aXMAASsx7.jpeg)

>>696953
>Ho do you prevent what happens in a capitalist economy, where overproduction causes a decrease in prices, while incomes decreases faster than prices creating poverty?
"overproduction" is not a problem in planning. what you have is production above expectations in some places, and below expectations in others. this results in a shift in values, but not necessarily prices or wages
overproduction is a signal to the system that there's surplus labour power being used in those workplaces. short term it's likely reasonable to pay people just to maintain this spare productive capacity. long term you want to encourage them to work somewhere else. or reduce the length of the working week in that sector

>>696955
there are good reasons to have piece wages even in socialism, or a combination of piece wages and a fixed hourly wage. it discourages wasteful use of labour

>>697208
>Would a Deng-tier economy be a prerequisite
please clarify what you mean by "dengism" in this contet
you probably need some amount of development for this to work yes. I don't think computer power or internet connectivity is a limiting factor anywhere. even Subsaharan Africa has a decently built out cell phone network. setting up higher-capacity links can also be done if necessary

 No.697489

>>697370
I'm on chapter 4 and the preceding chapter talks about uploading spreadshet stats onto a wider database, i don't know the scale of computer technology in the third world, but greater availability of desktop computers would be needed to input data by hand (advanced automatic robot factories could upload production data on its own, but that's were the dengism thing came about, the productive forces are not so advanced in africa) cellphones are not so good for spreadsheets.

>>697350
I wonder what could be the objections of bourgeois media to greater use of cybernetics in the economy, some bullshit about the lack of human soul or whining about incentives(ignoring a b c worker grades) maybe?

I really wish this subject would be talked at all in the media, not things like modern monetary theory that are pretty much defacto policy in america with the whole "printing the reserve currency of the world" thing

 No.697583

File: 1642553557603.gif (40.5 KB, 810x1006, parecon chores.gif)

>>668404
>>682301
Here's how to find the upper bound of different chores an individual would have to do at least a part of in the balanced Parecon-style scheme. Start by dividing the number of different chores by the number of people and continue from there. If the number of chores is no more than half the number of people (realistic in a big workplace), letting pairs of people do the same things doesn't increase the final number.

>>696815
>Problem 1
Silly. How do they get away with doing exactly the same thing with exactly the same resources as before and claiming a different amount of hours? The old data is still there in the database even if everybody is forgetful. So this doesn't make sense. And of course there will be inspections.
>Problem 2
Also silly. That a group of people with similar qualifications get split into some who work 50 hours a week and others who are unemployed is a capitalist thing. Instead of that, there will be a broadly shared reduction of work hours.

>>696955
… That's pretty much Cockshott's opinion.

 No.697589

>>697583 (me)
>Parecon stuff
Reminder that's with the caveat that everybody in the group can do each of these chores and that each chore can be cut up in any way.

 No.697859

File: 1642563373522.pdf (7.68 MB, 180x255, HowTheWorldWorks.pdf)

Paul Cockshott - How the World Works

 No.698191

>>697489
>I wonder what could be the objections of bourgeois media
bourgeois media will not be allowed to exist after the revolution

 No.698207

>>697583
>Instead of that, there will be a broadly shared reduction of work hours.
Still, if you pay people with labour time vouchers, their purchasing power will be reduced, while prices of goods don't because the demand will be the same while the time to make them will be the same. Then they will not be able to buy goods and this creates poverty.

 No.698231

>>697489
>i don't know the scale of computer technology in the third world, but greater availability of desktop computers would be needed to input data by hand
a lot of electronic "waste" that gets sent to these places consists partly of fully functional computers. our cup runneth over when it comes to 'puters. just install Lubuntu on them or something
>cellphones are not so good for spreadsheets
I didn't mean use actual cellphones for this stuff, but the network. if the network has been expropriated then no worries. else data will cost a lot and a custom highly-compressed format may be called for

 No.698309

>>697350
i second this. dengist strategies can be used to develop a country, while wolff-style market socialism should be used in the first world.

 No.698373

>>698207
>Still, if you pay people with labour time vouchers, their purchasing power will be reduced, while prices of goods don't because the demand will be the same
The target price is not based on demand, but production cost. Amount to be produced in the future is based on whether the buffer would be expected to shrink or grow with the product sold at production cost. There is a dead zone of allowed ups and downs in the buffer where the price is not changed from product-cost price, only when it out of bounds gets the price changed. (That's not to say that there is only a signal to the producers when the price changes. They can directly access real-time information about buffer size and react to that.)

If productivity per hour in general increases, the prices of consumer products go down, since the prices are primarily rooted in labor time.

 No.701008

File: 1642739800114.gif (40.63 KB, 810x1006, parecon chores.gif)

>>697583
Fuck I just noticed a dypo (a dypo is the equivalent of a typo in a diagram). Fixed.

 No.702221

Tangentially related?
https://github.com/DREAM-DK/MAKRO#readme
<MAKRO is an economic model built to provide a good description of the Danish economy in both the short and the long run. In addition, the model is used to analyze how economic policy initiatives affect the economy including the gradual transition to a long run path.
<(…)
<The model is split into several modules, each of which define a group of endogenous variables and exactly as many constraints. The separation is purely for user convenience, rather than technical, as in the end all the modules are solved simultaneously.
<aggregates - Calculates objects with ties to many other modules
<consumers - Consumption decisions and budget constraint
<exports - Armington demand for exports of both domestically produced and imported goods
<finance - Firm financing and valuation
<government - Government aggregation module
<GovRevenues - Government revenues (see also taxes module)
<GovExpenses - Government expenses
<HHincome - Household income and portfolio accounting
<IO - Details of the IO system. The different demand components are satisfied with domestic production competing with imports.
<labor_market - Labor force participation, job searching and matching, and wage bargaining
<post_model - Module for calculating pure output variables not present in the model that only runs after the main model.
<pricing - Price rigidities, markups, and foreign prices
<production_private Private sector production and demand for factors of production
<production_public Public sector production and demand for factors of production
<struk - Structural levels, i.e. potential output (Gross Value Added) and structural employment
<taxes - Tax rates and revenues from taxes and duties closely related to the IO system

 No.703206

>>702221
sounds interesting

 No.703260

>>698309
Richard Wolff isn't a market socialist though, in his video with Hakim he made it clear he wants a planned economy but with co-ops at the workplace level

 No.703261

>>703256
>Cockshott is fash, as per his own words.
Post source

 No.704303

>>703261
hide Langley threads
ignore Langley posts
do not reply to Langley posters

 No.704314

>>703261
his twitter feed

 No.705306

>Paul Cockshott on Towards a New Socialism (Part 3) - Differential Pay & Worker Self-Management [After The Oligarchy]
https://youtu.be/Z3ebqnvIrE0

 No.705372

>>705306
that poster is fucking dope

 No.707185

>>701008
>(a dypo is the equivalent of a typo in a diagram)
lol

 No.708471

>>705306
do these After The Oligarchy peeps have an email address? I only find links to disservices like tw*tter and f*cebook


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