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File: 1637452137902.png (254.67 KB, 800x750, CyberSocCatALT.png)

 No.609222[View All]

Previous thread >>392953 hit bump limit. Someone please archive it!

READING
http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/
For a complete reading list, see: https://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/2020/05/01/two-reading-lists/

Cockshott's Patreon, YouTube and blogs
https://www.patreon.com/williamCockshott/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVBfIU1_zO-P_R9keEGdDHQ
https://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/
http://paulcockshott.co.uk/

Videos torrent archive
Here's the torrent with all of Paul Cockshott's YouTube channel videos up to 27/10/2020 (i.e. Eliminating inequality):
Magnet link:
magnet:?xt=urn:btih:d5e5cc7a91228fef2ea213f816b27cfea8185961&dn=Paul%5FCockshott%5F%28October%5F27th%5F2020%29&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.opentrackr.org%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2F9.rarbg.to%3A2710%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2F9.rarbg.me%3A2710%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.internetwarriors.net%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.leechers-paradise.org%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.cyberia.is%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fexodus.desync.com%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=http%3A%2F%2Fexplodie.org%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fp4p.arenabg.ch%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=http%3A%2F%2Ftracker1.itzmx.com%3A8080%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker3.itzmx.com%3A6961%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.zerobytes.xyz%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.tiny-vps.com%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.ds.is%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fopen.stealth.si%3A80%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fopen.demonii.si%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.torrent.eu.org%3A451%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fretracker.lanta-net.ru%3A2710%2Fannounce&tr=http%3A%2F%2Fopen.acgnxtracker.com%3A80%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.moeking.me%3A6969%2Fannounce
Torrent file:
https://anonymousfiles.io/RileL0Sn/

This thread is for the discussion of cybersocialism, the planning of the socialist economy by computerized means, including discussions of related topics and of course the great immortal scientist himself, WILLIAM PAUL COCKSHOTT.

Archives of previous thread
1) https://archive.is/uNCEY
2) https://web.archive.org/web/20201218152831/https://bunkerchan.xyz/leftypol/res/997358.html
3) https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1092975361
4) YOUR LINK HERE
309 posts and 51 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.673226

Did you guys finally solve that math problem above? If you haven't yet, I did it for you. The answer is 73.

 No.675345

>>672910
>I've had this exact same idea. start co-ops and have them use planning to coordinate action between themselves
Utopianism? Jacque Fresco maybe?

 No.677638

>>675345
>Jacque Fresco
ah the Venus Project guy. well no, partly because he proposes going directly to communism

 No.680300

File: 1641587060292.jpeg (16.29 KB, 253x400, 6888680.jpeg)

What are the prerequisites to understanding this book?

 No.681892

>>677638
aha. Still, just do it the Lenin way. Yeah the projects seem like fun but they won't lead a proletarian revolution.

 No.681994

>>680300
I would just revisit the entire western esoteric canon. That should make you ready to tackle it

 No.681998

>>681994
>western esoteric canon
what dis? adam smith?

 No.682014

>>681998
Alchemism and the sorts

 No.682301

>>669656
Are you implying that you have solved the problem? Because I have read this whole exchange as well as the links and there isn't a solution yet described or linked to in this thread. The generous interpretation is that you either don't understand the problem or the content of the links. But a more realistic one is you understand neither: The problem states that a person might do more than one type of chore, but only two different ones at most, and that a chore can be divided up between several people. (If you didn't register this the first time around, you should have figured it out after >>658293 at the latest.) As such, it is not a problem about assigning each chore to exactly one person – but let's pretend it were that for a moment: The problem asks for weighting and that means cardinal information. If you only take in rankings, that's only ordinal information. And you can't get cardinal data from ordinal (aside from that a person being assigned to the chore they ranked lightest having a burden of below 1/N in their own estimate and a person being assigned to what they ranked the heaviest having a burden above 1/N in their own estimate). So, even if the problem were about matching one to one, it wouldn't make sense to refer to stable marriage as the reference point (a sensible reference point would be the Hungarian algorithm).

So what we have here is a gross misreading (corrected more than once, but you are stubborn) together with a recommendation that wasn't a very bright move even from the point of view of that misreading. What's your next move? Maybe you want to report this for derailing? We can't have a discussion about an algorithm allocating resources without money in our communist economic planning thread! Reee! I recommend that you just shouldn't post if you got nothing constructive to say.

And now I will follow my own advice. From the very simple "rod algorithm" in >>668404 that uses a universal weight standard some interesting variations can be built easily. A subjective version would solve our original problem and I have a hunch that this solution would also give at least some of the subjective versions of these variants as well. For example, more people than chores: The algorithm would be a very niche thing if it only worked for exactly the same number of chores as people. But you can just use a concept of zero-length rods to make the number of rods equal to the number of people, and then go on as usual. (Maybe the rod metaphor isn't so great in this context. You can just think of zero-length columns, take the average length of all columns, and then go on as usual.)

Michael Albert and Robin Hahnel propose in their vision "Participatory Economics" that individuals get a balanced blend of more and less desirable tasks to do ("balanced job complexes") and they seem to have a general standard scheme in mind rather than individual judgment (a mistake IMHO). Critics like David Schweickart ("Nonsense on Stilts" & "I Still Think It's Nonsense") claim one big reason Parecon is unfeasible is because of the high cost of each individual having to change between many different tasks supposedly brought about by this balancing requirement (Schweickart: "I don't want to be running all over the place each day or week or month, trying to do a hundred or so different things.") But the rod algorithm shows that with N people and ≤N chores everyone could do nobody has to do more than two different things at most. Suppose we have two general standards to balance (for example an estimate of person-hours each chore takes and an estimate of calories it burns), then the upper bound with N people and ≤N chores everyone could do would be no higher than four different chores per person. Albert has written about Parecon for decades, but I'm sure he doesn't know any of that. People on the pro-socialist side clearly haven't done much thinking yet when it comes to relevant algorithms and I would appreciate if you stopped acting phony by pretending otherwise.

 No.682348

>>680300
TBH its difficult. math, stats and physics knowledge, id guess

 No.683168

>>682301
>words words words
anon this is still perfectly solvable with mixed integer programming
>The problem asks for weighting and that means cardinal information. If you only take in rankings, that's only ordinal information
you're not going to get cardinal data from people. especially not as N approaches the number of tasks that exist globally
as I've already said, git gud at formalizing or else you will not get the answers you seek

 No.683297

>>680300
>>682348
Yes, the authors make no presumption about readers being familiar with the works of certain economists or philosophers.

>>683168
<1. the problem is perfectly solvable
<2. it is not formalized rigorously enough for analysis
Contradiction.

 No.683314

>>683297
the anon is asking for specific algorithms. general algorithms exist (branch-and-bound), but problem-specific algos tend to be faster. so to get a specific answer the question must also be specific and not normie tier

 No.684329

lmao how will cybercommies ever escape the ghost of Mises?

 No.684346

>>684329
>aaaa im debooonking
going to have to give this a watch tomorrow morning. but if this guy was serious he'd go after penispew not hakim

 No.684354

>>684329
I'm going to note here that what the Austrians do is ascribe magical computational powers to the market. this is rooted in not having a scientific understanding of what computation even is. and similarly with information theory

 No.685077

I have to read a lot of maths and science, damn. Any relevant textbooks?

 No.685106

>>684329
>some rando with a few thousands subs
be honest this is you isnt it. Well can someone TLDR im too lazy to watch

 No.685108

>>685077
just use khan academy

 No.685158

>>685108
That can't be the only resource necessary

 No.685241

>>685077
>Any relevant textbooks?
in what field?

 No.685279

>>685241
maths, for economic planning. I found a linear algebra book in these threads, anything else?

 No.685311

File: 1641832592177-0.jpg (363.9 KB, 1863x914, ecp.jpg)

>>685279
see pdf related on mathematical optimization

>>684329
>1:40
>economic calculation = aggregate of I/O via a homogenous (scalar) variable
already here we have retardation. the purpose of planning is calculation in terms of use-values, which are vector-valued. in the framework used in the video this of course means planned economies cannot do economic calculation by definition. like so much "debate" this is a language problem. the Austrians are not actually talking about calculation, but define economic calculation in a way that excludes planning
it is assumed that price contains full knowledge of consumer and supplier demand. this is information theoretically impossible
there is a spurious distinction between capital goods and consumer goods
it is assumed that planning involves pricing of capital goods, and that this pricing is "arbitrary". this is incorrect
>4:00
>we need to know demand and technical coefficients in order to do economic calculation
this is correct
>6:00
it is pointed out that firms are planned internally, which is correct
>7:00
>we can't calculate how many hospitals can be built
>we can't account for different productive methods
wrong
>8:00
>distributing 80,000 goods among 6,000,000,000 consumers is haaard
solving LP in general is tricky. using interior point methods is O(L*n^2.5) for L bits of accuracy. but in practice LP is often solvable in linear time with predictor-corrector methods. big-O is just an upper bound
>LP only works in a static economy
wrong
>LP completely misses the point of the ECP
this is an empty statement as I have already pointed out. socialists care about use-values. not exchange-value.
>9:30
here the author does a bit of projecting by stating:
>hakim has never picked up a book that challenges his position
>hakim develops his beliefs from buzzwords thrown around by his friends
>hakim is a toddler
>10:30
>boom and bust cycles are caused by muh central banks
this is incorrect. econophysics and control theory shows us how these cycles emerge

this is enough nonsense for now. gotta get some work done, and make food. might summarize more of the video later

 No.685348

File: 1641834949801.png (151.47 KB, 513x336, comrade mises.png)

>>685279
the bit about predictor-corrector methods is from this (>>685311) book btw, if I remember correctly. or I may have read it in a paper. for certain classes of LP the number of global steps necessary to get L bits of accuracy is constant

>>684329
I know this is pearls before swine but I'll continue anyway
>13:00
>the gobernment should let shitty businesses fail rather than bailing them out
I mean, yeah. but here the author thinks that the point of bourgeois states is maintaining muh free market rather than maintaining the class system
>13:30
>muh crony capitalism!
>real capitalism has never been tried!
lel
>14:55
>central banking is socialism!
is this dogwhistling to antisemites?

 No.685352

>>685348
>global steps necessary to get L bits of accuracy is constant
err, I mean when L is held constant of course. that is, it's O(L)

 No.685392


 No.685439

I watched a video where they claimed we don't have enough sheer computational power to fully plan an economy, they first solved a system through a traditional method and then through gauss method, but I didn't really understand, did the computational power only apply to the traditional method, or is gauss limited in the same way? If not, is gauss method less, but still limited?
Also, is a limited scope computer built for solving equations enough yet?

 No.685493

>>685439
got a link to said video?
>they first solved a system through a traditional method and then through gauss method
I think you mean Gauss-Seidel, Gauss' method being the traditional O(N³) method that the Austrians think we haven't progressed beyond
there are many ways of solving sparse linear systems. Gauss-Seidel and Jacobi are two general methods. for symmetric positive definite (SPD) systems you can use the conjugate gradient method. convergence depends on the distribution of eigenvalues (spectrum) of the system. usually a preconditioner is also used
>Also, is a limited scope computer built for solving equations enough yet?
what do you mean? things like GPUs are used to accelerate linear algebra solvers

 No.686044

thoughts on this article https://archive.today/CIyRB

 No.686450

has anyone read Eden Medina's book "Cybernetic Revolutionaries: Technology and Politics in Allende's Chile"?

 No.686724

>>686044
looks like a summary of Eden Medina's book

>>686450
not yet. it's part of my next batch of books to order

 No.686732

>>685348
>is this dogwhistling to antisemites?
there's always been an overlap between paranoid libertarianism, austrian critiques of central banking, and anti semitic conspiracy theories

 No.686733

>>685311
can't linear problems be parallelized more easily? Is there anyway to solve shit faster?

 No.686767

>>686733
>can't linear problems be parallelized more easily?
this is what high-performance computing (HPC) is all about. LP reduces to a series of sparse matrix-vector multiplications. this is typically I/O bound

 No.687580

File: 1641949672081.png (332.92 KB, 2875x2935, cybersoc logo 2.png)

does anyone have a copy of Dapprich's latest paper? it's not on sci-hub
>Optimal Planning with Consumer Feedback: A Simulation of a Socialist Economy
doi:10.1080/09538259.2021.2005367

 No.688053

>>685493
>got a link to said video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llf49XbJBIc
It's in russian sadly
>what do you mean? things like GPUs are used to accelerate linear algebra solvers
yes i meant to ask if specialized machines would accelerate it.

 No.688175

>>688053
>yes i meant to ask if specialized machines would accelerate it.
it's less that the machines are specialized, since most use off-the-shelf parts. it's more that special libraries are used. libraries tailored for the hardware. for dense linear algebra you will link a BLAS library from the vendor. like Intel or Nvidia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_linear_algebra_libraries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAPACK
there are special operations for matrices with special shapes
for dense operations these libraries tend to perform very close to the hardware limit
for sparse stuff it's trickier, because it depends on the sparsity pattern of the system

 No.688640

File: 1642020013502.png (363.79 KB, 1127x685, ClipboardImage.png)


 No.688706

>>687580
I'd directly ask him for it over mail

 No.688732

File: 1642024324218.png (419.79 KB, 666x616, ClipboardImage.png)

I take you guys dislike Hegel (given Cockshott's opinion of the man). Why is that? Any other philosophers you people are critical towards?

 No.688764

>>687580
>>688706
found it
quick critique:
I like that he makes CO2 constraints explicit
the "free corn" method seems like a hack. it should be possible to derive the same information from the basis that lp_solve outputs. both Glushkov and Kantorovich do this I think
I don't understand why he picks corn as the objective function. maybe Dapprich is a Khrushchevite?

>>688640
what language are you using? it probably has a library for linear algebra

>>688732
such discussion belongs in a separate thread. there's a Hegel vs Cockshott thread even, if it hasn't fallen off the end of the board

 No.690053

>>688764
>what language are you using? it probably has a library for linear algebra
>lisp
>last updated 2014
i- it's not dead i swear!!!1

 No.690091

>>690053
I feel like lisp probably has a binding to some C library for this stuff. haskell does

 No.691897

>>688732
I like Cockshott and I think Hegel (at least in the way Marx uses him) is useful. WE EXIST!

 No.692057

>>691897
IDEALIST!

 No.692145

>>692057
>>691897
As someone who is familiar with both Marx, Cockshott, theoretical CS, and Spinoza, i think that the middle ground is that the Althusserian/Cockshottian critique of hegelianism really only applies to Hegelian dialectics and other "complete" or purportedly complete logical systems, and Marxist non teleological dialectics doesn't suffer from the same weakness

 No.692160

How do you guys resolve the question of janitors getting paid the same as doctors ? I think labour vouchers are good idea but if everyone got paid the same why would people become programers, doctors, engineers etc. Is paying people while they go to school , genuine interest, or some sort of ideological sense of duty to the society really enough resolve this?

 No.692161

>>692145
Also, anyone saying Cockshott is a positivist, has been kinda disproved by his "Anti-Machism" video. I think he is just a vulgar/crass materialist on most issues, which is more bad than good imo. Also his thoughts on unequal exchange are kinda unsatisfactory

 No.692371

>>692160
>why would people become programers, doctors, engineers etc.
because they want to?
>Is paying people while they go to school , genuine interest, or some sort of ideological sense of duty to the society really enough resolve this?
paying people for getting educated is one way yes. paul argues this in one paper. I forget which one
the only reason you'd need to pay people more is if there's a shortage of people willing to do some job. for example sewage

 No.692573

>>685348
>>the gobernment should let shitty businesses fail rather than bailing them out
What is this nu-ancap/libertarian bullshit? I had the impression that they thought the government was useless/incompetent at everything.


>is this dogwhistling to antisemites?

It would highly ironic if so, given Mises was joo lol.


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