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File: 1637587890987.png (138.32 KB, 320x180, ClipboardImage.png)

 No.611847[View All]

In history class today we learnt Soviet military casualties were particularly high, 20-27 million for soldiers and another 20 million for civilians. No source was provided but it was accepted as factual.
I want to hear where these 20-27 million figures came from, because as far as I remember most deaths were civilian due to the Germans attempting to genocide their population?
112 posts and 5 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.616509

>>616499
>Disinfo is a thing, and it is an expected thing rather than an occurence
that's got to be some powerful disinformation if people from multiple intelligence services, even your own spies, are all telling you the same thing

 No.616535

>>616509
What same thing?

 No.616596

>>616535
barbarossa comes to mind

 No.616658

>>615470
Stalin might simply not have had the complete numbers as it was still too early and there was not enough time for proper research. Also often the point of obfuscating the atrocities earlier on was to not incite the retribution towards people of germany and other collaborating countries that the red army and the suffered people's populations' had a presence in. German fascists' occupying forces were working for three years on occupied territories hands free to do anything, we still find the sites of mass murder to this day. Their goal was the total extermination of our people. There is no point in belittling our losses, it was a tragedy but the other outcome would have been our extinction.

 No.616733

>>616658
All other countries find out approximate number of losses year or two after the war. Why can't USSR? What, is it really that hard to look over losses in armies and to look over how many worker reserves are registered?

Special Commission employed 7 million informers, and was provided with millions in funding to find how many Soviets have died. There's money in this, too - Soviets extracted concessions from Germany based off those figures.

>not to incite retribution


Oh, did Stalin hide the real number of dead polish people from Poland? Pretty sure they calculated their losses in a couple of years, too, and were revisiting them only to push the blame for those losses off Nazis and onto Soviets, aka Katyn.

>we still find the sites of mass murder to this day


Which merely make a MIA person into a KIA one. Those graves do not increase the number of losses, as it's an assumed fact that a person has died, but officials just don't know where their corpse is buried at.

Well, now that I think about it, Memorial graves do increase numbers of Soviet repressions. Because they invent dead people out of thin air.

 No.616748

>>616733
You seem to have brought up the numbers that were estimated during and immediately after the war.

What's the exact breakdown of the military and civilian losses of the USSR according to you? And, according to you, what's the ratio of military losses between Germany and USSR?

 No.616855

File: 1637860466882-0.jpg (282.11 KB, 680x993, 04.jpg)

File: 1637860466882-1.djvu (25.69 MB, 224x300, voroshilov_ke04.djvu)

>>616748
>You seem to have brought up the numbers that were estimated during and immediately after the war.

No, I've brought up the numbers Special Commission has produced. This is just one metric amongst many, like the number of sheep fascists stole, damage they inflicted on kolkhozes and industry, how many villages they've burnt, how much tractors stole, all the things related to the casualties of war.

https://statearchive.ru/1185

Pic is taken from that link. Literally a list of civilians who were shot by Nazis.

>What's the exact breakdown of the military and civilian losses of the USSR according to you?


I have no idea, really. Khruschev rewrote history. Apart from Stalin's interview to Pravda with 7 millions mentioned, as well as UN figure of USSR population in 1946 being 193 million people, I haven't seen much reports. Heck, I've seen more FOREIGN press reports on USSR's afterwar population dated 1945-1950 than Soviet sources. Khruschev was very fucking thorough. Apparently, they've been book-burning like crazy after Stalin. Say, this Voroshilov's book in djvu, printed in 1937, was to be destroyed, and has relevant archival markings that it was meant to be destroyed, and it only survived because archivist didn't fulfill the order.

My knee-jerk estimate is 5 millions military and 2 millions civilians losses. It's not based on anything, really.

>And, according to you, what's the ratio of military losses between Germany and USSR?


Western researchers put german military losses below 5 millions, lol, and instead push the "germans were genocided when expulsions happened!!1" narrative. Realistically, though, it's around 9 millions losses for Germany alone - 18 millions were mobilized, only around 10 millions found in Allied captivity after the war, plus civilian casualties. All the "excess" deaths from Western estimates of 3-5 million military losses are pushed into "POW deaths" and "civilians deaths due to post-war german genocide" categories.

Apparently, Allies did a census in Germany in 1946 and found population of 66 millions, with 7.5 millions of women more than men?

So, here we are. 5 millions of Soviet military losses to Germany's 8 millions. That's about the effect one would expect from having so much more tanks and planes and artillery than your enemy, no?

 No.618045

>>616855
>Khruschev was very fucking thorough. Apparently, they've been book-burning like crazy after Stalin. Say, this Voroshilov's book in djvu, printed in 1937, was to be destroyed, and has relevant archival markings that it was meant to be destroyed, and it only survived because archivist didn't fulfill the order.
proof? the book also seems to be just a compilation of Voroshilov's articles fror Pravda. If someone wanted to destroy, he would have to destroy a complete archive of Pravda.

 No.618179

>>618045
Now I feel like an idiot. I've downloaded it from comments that described it as having those markings for being destroyed. At least that's how I remember it. I can't track down the page, though. Searching archives for "183705 Фт." gave me no results, and I can't find any "Фт." archive or library mentioned anywhere. I assume that's what those comments meant back then? Found this book on sale, also, from private collections, though, as there were no markings. This one seems to be from 2012 from militera, though, and those others were placed for sale in 2016+.

>If someone wanted to destroy, he would have to destroy a complete archive of Pravda.


Yeah, but we are talking about population smears as well. Nobody had 1920-30s Pravda issues in 1950-60s, except for random crazies who collect them.

Well, let's see. It's Vitebsk's something something librarian, so it's local observations, but I think it's representative.

https://rep.vsu.by/bitstream/123456789/1529/1/%D0%AF%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B0%20%D0%93.%D0%9D..pdf

It says censorship organs were created in 1953. In the first paragraph, it says that Khruschev's Thaw resulted in a lot of documents getting destroyed. It mentions later Beria getting edited out of Big Soviet Encyclopedia, and how political situation abroad - Yugoslavia and China, for example - immediately resulted in books getting removed from the shelves. Also, it talks about how censors voiced objections about putting back on the shelves works of rehabilitated under Khruschev "national democrat" writers, lol. Anti-party group got cleansed out of libraries and shops after 1957, and in 1960, Zhukov.

Well, I assume this book printed in 1937 must have been removed in 1957, or something. Can't prove if it was actually meant to be destroyed, though.

 No.618211

File: 1637945022053-0.jpg (508.94 KB, 2714x1809, SC2056351-1.jpg)

File: 1637945022053-1.jpg (146.29 KB, 1611x1119, soviet-Shermans-1.jpg)

File: 1637945022053-2.jpeg (343.27 KB, 1600x1066, Soviet_sherman1-1.jpeg)

File: 1637945022053-3.jpg (115.69 KB, 800x539, general-lee.jpg)

i thought there weren't supposed to be any pictures of soviet M4 shermans?

 No.618230

>>618211
Any? We were talking about insanely high claims of Lendlease propaganda. 3 billion worth of USD Lendlease came to USSR, that's for sure. It constituted 4% of USSR's production during the war, though.

 No.618355

https://warspot.ru/13416-trinadtsat-tankov-za-odnu-nogu

Here's detailed research of Rudel's claim that he destroyed 13 Soviet tanks in return for his leg in 1945. As it turns out, Soviet losses' reports don't even mention losing this many tanks, lol. They mention losses, alright, in manpower, of people who were trying to set up a bridge, but only 1 tank destroyed, 2 damaged. That's it's about German aces.

A godawful site, though.

 No.618403

Okay, I found statistical proof for my claims of ~7 million losses for USSR. Behold, the statistical yearbook of sorts for years 1913-1951, apparently, printed in 1952.

We are interested in pages 115 for kolkhozes (1940 - 42.9 mln workers, 1945 - 34.7 mln, 1950 - 40.6), 167 for industries (1940 - 31.2 mln, 1945 - 27.3 mln, 1946 - 30.6 mln, 1950 - 38.3 mln), last pages for students (1940/41 - 34.8 mln, 1945/46 - 26.1 mln, 1950/51 - 33.3 mln). In short, we are losing 8 mln kolkhozniks and 4 mln for workers, and replace them with 6 mln kids - so, we lose due to war 6 mln worker population. By around 1948, USSR's worker population was already higher than it was in 1940.

Not sure about women, though. 185 deals with percentage of women in industries (not kolkhozes). 1940 - 38.4%, 1945 - 55.3%, 1946 - 48.4%, 1950 - 47.3%. So, it means in 1940 there were around 18 mln male industry workers and 12 mln female, in 1945 13 mln male and 14 mln female, in 1950 around 20 mln each. I'm too tired to think by how much it changes the 6 million stat.

Rest of ~193 mln Soviet population is both elderly, kids below 6 years old, and services workers. There's also healthcare workers stat at page 213, 1940 - 137.3k normal doctors + 14.5k dentists, 1945 - 116.1k + 10.1k, 1950 - 241.7k + 17.4k I couldn't find the other population categories.

As we can see in the end, the main DEMOGRAPHIC, as in, seen in graphs without reality taken into account, damage was suffered by the student kids - drop in size by 8 millions, facilitated by women not birthing new kids during the war very much. This number didn't catch up by 1951, even, because USSR's first year school age was 6-7 year. Otherwise, this stat is totally in line with the 193 million figure USSR has sent to UN in 1946. https://www.un-ilibrary.org/content/books/9789210581783/read page 85

Oh no~ it looks like faggots believing in 27 million Soviet losses were murdered with facts and logic~

 No.619490

File: 1638004059856.png (148.8 KB, 451x280, VictimsOfCommunism3.png)

>>618403
Hey, where's the "Stalin didn't know the real number of deaths in 1946" gang at?

 No.619615

>>618403
7 million is a likely number for military losses. But civlian losses? When at one point more than 1/3 of soviet civilians were in occupied territory? Very unlikely.

Stalin purposefully deflated numbers for the purpose of national defense and to prevent the allies from estimating soviet capabilities in the immediate post-war period.

The numbers are most easily estimated using the "balancing method".

USSR population immediately in 1940:
196.7
After war, population that was born before 1941:
160
Natural death rate:
4.25 million * 3.879 years (duration of war) - around 16.5 million.
196.7-160-16.5 = 20 million, which is exactly the Khruschev statistics - the extra 7 million that were revised upwards are basically inaccurate as of the most recent, upwardly revised base mortality rates in the USSR.

These 20 million include plenty of non-combat deaths, but deaths from starvation induced by war, increased disease among the civilian population. Thus, 20.2 million is the UPPER limit for deaths for the soviet union in WWII. We can do some small corrections, such as accounting for child mortality increases, subtracting 1.3 million, giving us 18.9 million. The number diverges from the 27 million calculated by casualty totals (Krivosheev's balance sheet and totals give a similar number), which means a likely heavy double count between civilian/military deaths, or even within the military itself, as people would assume the identities of those who died and other similar crap (adds up when you have a massive partisan movement).

Your "knee-jerk" estimate is based on hot air. Again, forget about the demographics here and look at a fucking map. An occupying force, bent on genocide, had rampaged through a huge part of European Russia, Ukraine, Belarus.

Plus, if you're talking about the German gender ratios, holy shit look at the Russian ones.

To recap:
27 million too high, number that is starting to be corrected, as we get a better number for mortality.
18.9 a more accurate number. This number includes:
Excess deaths from hunger/disease.
People who died on the front.
Those who were brutally executed by the germans in occupied territories.
This number does not include "kids who were not born if the war had not happened", because we never included them. We are only comparing existing people in 1941 to the same cohort in 1945.

I'm sorry, but you are very clearly a westoid who has never heard an actual survivor of the war talk of the horrors experienced, who hasn't had multiple relatives killed by the Nazis on all sides of the family.

 No.619631

>>619615
Ah, that's how you are going to continue to defend the 27 million figure - you will just ignore the number of workers Soviets had

<We are interested in pages 115 for kolkhozes (1940 - 42.9 mln workers, 1945 - 34.7 mln, 1950 - 40.6), 167 for industries (1940 - 31.2 mln, 1945 - 27.3 mln, 1946 - 30.6 mln, 1950 - 38.3 mln), last pages for students (1940/41 - 34.8 mln, 1945/46 - 26.1 mln, 1950/51 - 33.3 mln). In short, we are losing 8 mln kolkhozniks and 4 mln for workers, and replace them with 6 mln kids - so, we lose due to war 6 mln worker population. By around 1948, USSR's worker population was already higher than it was in 1940.


Pray fucking tell, EXACTLY WHICH CATEGORY OF POPULATION has died to contribute up to 20 millions of deaths? Elderly and children below age of 7?

>I'm sorry, but you are very clearly a westoid who has never heard an actual survivor of the war talk of the horrors experienced, who hasn't had multiple relatives killed by the Nazis on all sides of the family.


Dude, I've literally posted pdf entirely in russian.

>These 20 million include plenty of non-combat deaths, but deaths from starvation induced by war, increased disease among the civilian population. Thus, 20.2 million is the UPPER limit for deaths for the soviet union in WWII.


Not supported by actual worker figures printed in 1952. You know, statistics, printed alongside OPERATIONAL numbers, such as the numbers of goods produced, transported, traded around and consumed.

 No.619640

>>619631
Твои косвиные выводы - мура.

Причём здесь категории насиления?

И опять-таки, ты не смотришь на главное, на оккупацию земель на которых проживало 50 млн. человек, которые подверглись геноциду.

Или ты мне сейчас начнёшь внушать что евреев там не геноцидили поскольку в израиле были рабочие в киббуцах?

Очнись мужик, и подумай.

А и ты наверное забыл о том что гораздо больше женьшин было привлечено к постоянной работе после 1941 года, и они остались/укрепились на рабочих местах (во время войны детейне надо было рожать) Вот тебе и увеличелось количество колхозников и трудящихся.

Чё тебя так заклинило с этими семью милионами?

TLDR For non-russian speakers:
Terminal retard brain over here is citing absolutely irrelevant statistics and can't think past second grade school level.

 No.619667

File: 1638013129419.png (311.19 KB, 600x450, USSRSavingJews.png)

>>619640
>Твои косвиные выводы - мура.

They are not "косвиные", it's DIRECT FUCKING EVIDENCE STRAIGHT OUT OF SACRED ARCHIVES. You have to believe it, because it's SACRED ARCHIVES, right? It's stats from 195-fucking-2, the operational stats.

>Причём здесь категории насиления?


Indeed, what does it matter that there's no category of population that could have possibly contributed 20 million corpses to prop up the 27 million dead figure? Women got into employment, sure. Female employment in cities (industry workers) jumped from 38 to 55 then to 48; in kolkhozes, all women were workers, so whatever. This stat DESTROYS the possiblity of those women getting dead by the millions, as they REMAINED IN EMPLOYMENT.

>А и ты наверное забыл о том что гораздо больше женьшин было привлечено к постоянной работе после 1941 года


<Not sure about women, though. 185 deals with percentage of women in industries (not kolkhozes). 1940 - 38.4%, 1945 - 55.3%, 1946 - 48.4%, 1950 - 47.3%. So, it means in 1940 there were around 18 mln male industry workers and 12 mln female, in 1945 13 mln male and 14 mln female, in 1950 around 20 mln each.


Merely 2 million more women were added to the industrial workers category. We can assume those were the growing during the war girls and housewives. ONLY 2 MORE MILLION.

>Вот тебе и увеличелось количество колхозников и трудящихся.


You are a brainlet who cannot analyze data.

>Terminal retard brain over here is citing absolutely irrelevant statistics and can't think past second grade school level.


Yep, just look at that >>618403 Employment figures, and female participation in the workforce, are totally irrelevant to the attempt to measure the real death toll of the war onto USSR. Which was 7 million TOTAL, military and civilian. Which was the figure used by Stalin officially, by USSR when at Nuremberg, by USSR when operating it's industry, from where that pdf with statistics came, and which was accepted by the UN without questions asked. Yep, totally implausible figure

>И опять-таки, ты не смотришь на главное, на оккупацию земель на которых проживало 50 млн. человек, которые подверглись геноциду.


Dude, Germans were losing 40 men out of 300 men-large squads during the winter when transferring goods from one occupied city to another. There were entire partisan armies lurking around, and entire villages were running to the forests, it was a well-documented thing that they did that. Also, USSR has evacuated 25 million people from occupied territories during the war, making it even less people that Germans could have killed.

Why the fuck are you insisting that 1 out of 10 civilians dead (30 millions living on occupied territories, 3 dead, let's assume such) is not enough? It's an insane figure in line with the genocide Nazis have committed.

>Или ты мне сейчас начнёшь внушать что евреев там не геноцидили поскольку в израиле были рабочие в киббуцах?


Yes, 6 million figure isn't accurate, because USSR was prioritizing evacuating jews, and 6 million figure is an estimate based off pre-war population of jews in Europe, which didn't take into account USSR evacuating jews successfully.

 No.619946

>>619667
>Yes, 6 million figure isn't accurate, because USSR was prioritizing evacuating jews, and 6 million figure is an estimate based off pre-war population of jews in Europe, which didn't take into account USSR evacuating jews successfully.
literally not true
https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2020/04/the-number-of-jews-in-europe-at-eve-of.html
the estimate takes it into account. ~ 1 million jews died in the occupied territories

 No.619948

>>619946
>~ 1 million jews died in the occupied territories
respectively jews FROM the nazi occupied territories of the USSR

 No.619982

>>618403
>the 193 million figure USSR has sent to UN in 1946
this number doesn't reflect the reality of 1946

193 million is the last estimate of total soviet population published in the soviet press

it comes from Molotov's speech to the supreme soviet from august 1940:
<Как показывают подсчеты населения, Союз Советских Социалистических Республик сможет теперь говорить мощным голосом от имени 193 миллионов населения, не считая прироста населения СССР за 1939 и 1940 годы.
>Population counts show that the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics will now be able to speak with a powerful voice on behalf of the 193 million population, not counting the population growth of the USSR in 1939 and 1940.

The last population statistic before the war comes from april 1941 and it talks about 198 million people living in the USSR https://istmat.info/files/uploads/50979/rgae_4372.41.189_l.19-20.pdf

But the number from the Molotov speech was the last public number so it appears in the works of sociologists and statisticians even after the war (the first post-war soviet population census was done only in 1959 !)
like here: http://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/2015/0655/arxiv/arxiv04.pdf

or here: http://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/2015/0655/arxiv/arxiv05.pdf

 No.620061

>>619982
>this number doesn't reflect the reality of 1946

https://www.un-ilibrary.org/content/books/9789210581783/read

It literally says that in UN yearbook for USSR in 1946. 193 million in 1946.

>The last population statistic before the war comes from april 1941 and it talks about 198 million people living in the USSR


Nah, there can be no such a thing because it's not census, and USSR was operating in it's day-to-day economy on the real numbers - how much wage they have to pay, for example. Trying to increase pre-war population to therefore increase casualties is a pretty common tactic amongst "historians". If your pop statistic for 1941 was true, they would have sent it to the UN in 1946. Also, they would have mentioned it in my stat >>618403 if they had it known to them in 1941. Because, you know, printed in 1952.

>But the number from the Molotov speech was the last public number so it appears in the works of sociologists and statisticians even after the war (the first post-war soviet population census was done only in 1959 !)


Khruschevites were burning books and censoring everything that didn't fit with their narrative. Nothing surprising that there's no widely known data sources from before 1959's census, because it was expunged. UN Yearbook never gets mentioned ANYWHERE, and this 1913-1951 "dynamic statistical sequences" I posted is also an unknown not mentioned ANYWHERE. Because it breaks apart khruschevite narrative of insane war losses.

Also, it's bullshit claim that 193 was the last number said by Soviet officials. Western press was finding post-war population numbers different from 193 million and even higher after 1945, and quoting "Soviet officials" as the source. It was just expunged by khruschevites - but they couldn't get to the foreign press, obviously enough.

 No.620126

>>619982
Like, see this shit

https://istmat.info/files/uploads/39583/rgae_1562.33.2990_49-56.pdf

It's the same kind of documents you provided, and it tries to make Stalin's words fake, while also looking at foreign numbers of USSR population - all of which estimated USSR to have MORE THAN 200 MILLION PEOPLE. They even provide some German dude saying USSR pop was 210 million in 1954.

How do they explain that there was no figures after Stalin's 7 million losses for a decade? Naturally, a secret order was issued in 1948 to censor away population statistics! With no ministry having the population stat access whatsoever! Except, oops, we totally have this one >>618403 dated 1952.

And then they have an order printed in the same way on same paper with the same typewriter http://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/2015/0655/arxiv/arxiv06.pdf from your set, which claims that article 119 of 1948's order was UNDONE, and so stat department can now supply ailing ministries and industries with the real pop data!

Note that your set of data doesn't even have dates written into the blanks, lol. For fuck's sake, the whole set, both CSU and orders to CSU are all in the same folder, printed by the same typewriter, in the same style.

Note that 1948's March's order wasn't censoring population stats, it was censoring MOBILIZATION RESERVES and ARMY DISLOCATION and shit, not population size.

>Постановлением Совета Министров СССР от 01.03.48 (от 1 марта 1948 года) утверждены "Перечень главнейших сведений, составляющих государственную тайну" и "Инструкция по обеспечению сохранности государственной тайны в учреждениях и на предприятиях СССР". В Инструкции 1948 года установлены три степени секретности (- С; - СС; - СС ОВ), порядок определения степени секретности сведений, проведена унификация названий секретных органов. В Перечне 1948 года сведения разбиты на:


>1. Мобилизационные вопросы и сведения о резервах;


>2. Сведения военного характера;


>3. Сведения экономического характера:


>- промышленность


>- полезные ископаемые


>- сельское хозяйство


>- транспорт и связь


>4. Финансы;


>5. Внешняя политика и внешняя торговля;


>6. Вопросы науки и техники:


>- атомная энергия


>- радиолокационная техника


>- реактивная техника


>- открытиях и изобретениях


>- сведения по картографии, геологи, гидрологии


>7. Сведения об Арктике;


>8. Разные сведения


Worker sizes would totally fall under "промышленность" and "сельское хозяйство" (industry and agriculture), but those were printed in my source >>618403 here, and my source is a declassified top secret stuff, so it does fall under 1948 censorship order, so it checks out that it has worker size data.

So, in truth, we have a population growth line of 1940 - 193 mln, 1946 - 193 mln, 1954 - 210 mln, 1970 - 240 mln, instead of an anomalous and retarded 1940 - 193 mln, 1946 - 170 mln, 1959 - 208 mln, 1970 - 240 mln line. Yep, dude, official khruschevite stats say that USSR grew 28 mln in 13 years, and then 31 mln in 11 years. My "unofficial" line puts growth in line with the stalinist USSR prior to WW2 losses and with the world metrics.

 No.620134

>>619982
Oh, I bet you already want to call me a conspirologist! But what if I show you *this*:

https://ruskline.ru/news_rl/2015/10/02/obstoyatelnaya_solidnaya_vdohnovennaya_prezentaciya/

>Другой автор «Правой России» московский историк, кандидат исторических наук Дмитрий Дмитриевич Богоявленский сообщил, что сборник направлен на популяризацию правых взглядов, которые были искажены советской и либеральной историографией, сравнивающей их с фашизмом. Книга развенчивает мифы о правом движении. Историк с сожалением отметил, что молодежь не имеет правильного представления о правых. «Правая Россия» может изменить ложное представление о правом движении.


The author, who digged up archives you posted, is RIGHTOID SCUM trying to whitewash rightist ideas "twisted by Soviet and liberal propaganda"!

Holy shit.

 No.620180

>>618403
Lol the statistics don’t provide direct numbers for 1945+ in terms of actual population in the first section, your argument is based on meaningless extrapolation. The lack of direct provided numbers is suspicious in and of itself, but apparently Stalinist bureaucrats can’t lie is a sacred truth.

 No.620206

>>620180
>your argument is based on meaningless extrapolation

Is it reasonable to assume that a similar number of workers 6 years apart in the same country is the sign that country has a similar population size? Would a drop in population size from 193 million to 170 million people decrease the total number of workers, increase them, or keep it the same?

 No.620216

>>620180
>>620206

>but apparently Stalinist bureaucrats can’t lie is a sacred truth.


My source is a complex work of 300+ pages, which ties in worker population, production of goods and services, money spent/earned by the industries, consumption of goods and services and such. Other source was a pathetic collection of letters to USSR's ministers with the only thing those letters cared about being population stat, which were dug out in "archives" by a rightoid scum historian - who, you know, only cares about population stat because he wants to prove that USSR genocided it's own population, and that USSR has lost the highest amount of people in the war.

>The lack of direct provided numbers is suspicious in and of itself


Because there was no census. You can't say real population size without a census, and the last one was done in 1939 - and my source quotes this 1939 population almost immediately. >>618403 Pretty logical approach, isn't it? Print only stuff you have A SOLID IRON PROOF OF - either census data if it's population or employment figures from industries if you have no census.

 No.621065

>>615511
Do you have a website? You should write articles on this stuff.

 No.621283

>>621065
I'm mainly retranslating others' stuff, it's not really my research. Better check this guy out (russian, though, and swears too much) https://p-balaev.livejournal.com/1195681.html for example. Hilarious shit - Memorial guy, Mironenko, the then-head of russian state archives, did a booboo and attacked "Panfilov's 28", because he is a rabid anticommunist who can't stay silent, and produced an archival fake. In response, Russian War History Society, who was sponsoring the movie after it got kickstarted off people's donations, went into FSB archives and produced out of them documental proofs that Mironenko was lying - yet they presented it as if his archival evidence was real, but merely mispresented. Regardless, this debacle has cost Mironenko his position as the head of russian state archives, he is only a fellow researcher now, lol.

 No.621451

>>615511
Don’t forget the millions of gold bars and heavy metals that the USSR supplied the allies with which were critical for shipbuilding industry, tanks, precision equipment. The west extorted the USSR for far more than the aid was worth. The tanks sent were used mostly for anti-paratrooper operations and recovery of tanks. Western aid did help of course, but even Glantz admits it was not necessary for Soviet victory. Lend lease is western cope, and as you correctly pointed out, distracts from the fact they were supplying heavy metals to Germany throughout 1941-42, often the same ones that got exported by the USSR!

Lend lease did however help at a crucial moment in the siege of Leningrad in terms of food supply (which probably doesn’t fit your narrative, because the civilian deaths from that alone are massive, and then you start adding in burnt Belarusian villages, devastation in Smolensk and Kiev, you start getting 5-7 million not 3 mil, but whatever)

 No.621490

File: 1638096538022.png (342.63 KB, 860x717, shrug.png)

For the bystanders, the official Soviet number for the death toll is approx. 20 million

I dunno what's with this 7 million thing going around this place

 No.621497

File: 1638096894189-0.jpg (3.85 MB, 4032x1908, 20211128_184305.jpg)

File: 1638096894189-1.jpg (1.67 MB, 4032x1908, 20211128_184359.jpg)

File: 1638096894189-2.jpg (1.95 MB, 4032x1908, 20211128_184052.jpg)

Here's a book titled "The Great Patriotic War 1941-1945" (pic 1) printed in 1972 by the "Institute of Military History under the Soviet Ministry of Defence" (Pic 2; It's in Mongolian)
>On page 673 of the book (pic 3) the number of victims of Fascist aggression is put at approx. 20 million

 No.621502

File: 1638097565846-0.jpg (1.75 MB, 4032x1908, 20211128_190023.jpg)

File: 1638097565846-1.jpg (3.26 MB, 4032x1908, 20211128_190053.jpg)

File: 1638097565846-2.jpg (2.58 MB, 4032x1908, 20211128_190106.jpg)

File: 1638097565846-3.jpg (2.14 MB, 4032x1908, 20211128_190116.jpg)

File: 1638097565846-4.jpg (2.03 MB, 4032x1908, 20211128_190126.jpg)

>>621497
On the topic of the books that I own: Here's a kickass photo gallery type book about life in the Soviet Union between 1960-1980 called "Soviet Union" (pic 1)

 No.621512

File: 1638098570927.jpg (90.25 KB, 860x471, USSRInsaneDeaths.jpg)

>>621451
>which probably doesn’t fit your narrative, because the civilian deaths from that alone are massive

Leningrad civilians were evacuated by a very high percentage. Can't remember off my head, but it was something like half the population evacuated by 1942. Soviets have set up hospitals and sanatoriums for civilians, and they were rotating people in and out of Leningrad after 1942 on regular basis, which was represented in most of the memoirs.

The claim that Leningrad has lost millions of civilians dead is an anti-Soviet myth, lol. Like, Soviets had problem with supplying during the first winter, but in 1942 they've managed to lay pipes through the lakes (I think gasoline pipes?), and have funneled river/lake boats from across the USSR through it's channels for moving supplies in and people in and out. Most people who stayed back were soldiers defending Leningrad, workers working in the factories, and random strugglers.

>burnt Belarusian villages, devastation in Smolensk and Kiev


Does burnt village mean population was massacred? Again, USSR was evacuating since before the war, was resettling families behind Urals with factories. Why do we assume that Kiev and Smolensk were at peacetime populations when occupied? USSR has evacuated 25 million people during the war. Kolkhozes were harder to relocate than city population, isn't it?

>you start getting 5-7 million not 3 mil, but whatever


Really, in absense of materials of that Special Commission, it's all estimates. Say, official figure of total military people injured during the war was 10 million people. USSR had a very high rate of 70% of people going through hospitals getting back in action - compare that to Nazi Germany's 50%. Who don't return in action, either died or became disabled, and Nazis didn't count those losses as the real losses even. On average, WW2 had 1 dead soldier for every 3 injured on average, so, we get around 3.4 millions dead soldiers to 3.6 millions dead civilians - total, including the after-hospital deaths.

I don't know why anticommunists invent Soviet civilian losses out of thin air. Say, look at this Nazi propaganda of retreating germans in 1944. They did this shit, okay? Soviet losses being insanely high is the very blood of anticommunist propaganda.

>>621490
>for the bystanders

Can't attack the real stats that prove 7 million people dead total, start talking to bystanders as if nothing was discussed in this thread.

>>621497
>>621502
>1972

Sus.

Here, read this >>618403 Data from 1952, before khruschevites had their rewriting of history and censorship >>618179

 No.621535

File: 1638099713174.jpg (589.3 KB, 777x1087, PlanBarbarossa.jpg)

Also, for the people who doubt that Soviets retreating was not a strategic victory.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/F%C3%BChrer_Directive_21

>I. General Purpose:


>The mass of the Russian Army in western Russia is to be destroyed in daring operations, by driving forward deep armored wedges, and the retreat of units capable of combat into the vastness of Russian territory is to be prevented.


In other words, repeat of France - entire army encircled and destroyed.

>In quick pursuit a line is then to be reached from which the Russian Air Force will no longer be able to attack the territory of the German Reich. The ultimate objective of the operation is to establish a cover against Asiatic Russia from the general line Volga-Archangel. Then, in case of necessity, the last industrial area left to Russia in the Urals can be eliminated by the Luftwaffe.


Volga-Archangel - it's Astrakhan-Archangelsk line.

>The southern of these two army groups - in the center of the whole front - will have the task of breaking out the area around and to the north of Warsaw with exceptionally strong armor and motorized formations and of destroying the enemy forces in White Russia. This will create a situation which will enable strong formations of mobile troops to swing north; such formations will then cooperate with the northern army group - advancing from East Prussia in the general direction of Leningrad - in destroying the enemy forces in the area of the Baltic states. Only after the accomplishment of these offensive operations, which must be followed by the capture of Leningrad and Kronstadt, are further offensive operations to be initiates with the objective of occupying the important center of communications and of armament production, Moscow.


>Only a surprisingly rapid collapse of the Russian ability to resist could justify an attempt to achieve both objectives simultaneously.


Not a direct proof, but was an attempt of achieving both objectives SIMULTANEOUS?

>Once the battle south or north of the Pripet Marshes have been fought, the pursuit is to be undertaken with the following objectives:


>In the south the rapid occupation of the economically important Donetz Basin, in the north the speedy capture of Moscow. This city is a political and economical center, and is a main railway junction point.


Reminder to Nazis wanted to get to Archangelsk-Astrakhan line by the AUTUMN. Meaning, in 2 months, maximum 3 months. Exactly which of the Barbarossa's objectives did the German armies achieve, lol?

 No.621552

>>621535
https://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA_%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%8B%D1%85_%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B2/40/140

Soviet intelligence report for South-Western Front, 7th of September 1941. It's a full list of German divisions losing around 50% of personnel and tanks (both dead and injured, obviously). Germans were bled fucking dry before the winter.

 No.621596

>>621283
Nonetheless you should post those translations somewhere.

 No.621603

>>621512
I don't really get this, honestly.

<If Fascists were incompetent, why did Soviets retreat all the way back to Moscow instead of holding them at the border/on the Stalin Line

<If Khruschev fabricated the numbers, why? Doing all this just to smear shit on Stalin is too much, hyping about Great Purge alone was enough
<Despite Stalin's Great Purge was front and center in the de-Stalinization campaign, the death toll of the Great Patriotic War and supposed failures of Stalin wasn't part of it
<Why did nobody speak up about it
<Why did Brezhnev and the "Anti-Party Group" do nothing to reverse it?
<In fact, Mao, Anti-Khruschevites, modern Stalinists and any other group who were opposed to Khruschev and de-Stalinization never brought this up. All I get when I search about 7 million deaths is a single instance of a dude on Quora saying the same thing, and I suspect a thing or two about the identity of the person in question

I would say I support the ~20 million death toll as the actual number. Modern Historiography has serious problems, but I doubt an absurd conspiracy such as this wouldn't be pushed by them; saying this as a person who is involved in the field.

 No.621655

>>621603
<If Fascists were incompetent, why did Soviets retreat all the way back to Moscow instead of holding them at the border/on the Stalin Line

Why did Kutuzov retreated to Moscow and even surrendered it? Nazis had more divisions, as simple as. USSR traded territory for german losses in monpower and material.

<If Khruschev fabricated the numbers, why? Doing all this just to smear shit on Stalin is too much, hyping about Great Purge alone was enough


Do tell me, why anticommunists do this all the time today as well? Same shit

<Despite Stalin's Great Purge was front and center in the de-Stalinization campaign, the death toll of the Great Patriotic War and supposed failures of Stalin wasn't part of it


it quite literally was. Stalin was accused of being a shit commander who've let Germans to advance to Moscow. For this reason, history was rewritten to suit the narrative that "active defence" didn't exist, it was actually Soviet troops running away in panic - until Zhukov came in to save the day, that is.

All the Stalin's closest people were commanders in this war, Voroshilov, Timoshenko, Budyonnyi. All their operations official history calls failures, isn't it?

<Why did nobody speak up about it


What do you mean "nobody"? You people call them freaks, copers, Soviet-boos and such. Khruschev was taking books out of libraries and was glueing in new pages instead of old ones - like, come the hell on.

<Why did Brezhnev and the "Anti-Party Group" do nothing to reverse it?


Brezhnev was khruschevite, lol, why would he? Anti-Party Group did resist for a decade. Smears were happening before 1957, but afterwards Anti-Party Group's literature was straight up expunged from the libraries and replaced with khruschevite rewriting of history.

<In fact, Mao, Anti-Khruschevites, modern Stalinists and any other group who were opposed to Khruschev and de-Stalinization never brought this up.


How do you know what Chinese history books contain? Those kinds of books don't really like to put precise numbers, anyway. CPC quite literally didn't do destalinization, thus they didn't say that Stalin was a liar when he said "7 million losses total".

<search about 7 million deaths is a single instance of a dude on Quora saying the same thing


I even checked my quora account - yep, not a single fucking post from me, empty nortifications list. I didn't post that.

>I would say I support the ~20 million death toll as the actual number.


Then you are a moron. I've posted plenty of evidence in this thread and previous saged one.

>absurd conspiracy


What's so conspiratorial about a bunch of anticommunists agreeing that communism is the worst thing possible? What's so conspiratorial about >>620134 this, for example? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sow4tAqFHkk or this? It's not a conspiracy, it's PROVABLE BY HAVING A FUCKING OUNCE OF LOGIC.

>saying this as a person who is involved in the field.


Because you are conditioned by your education, kek. First and foremost, historians are fucking amateurs in their fields of study. Just remind me, how often did historian-designed armor and weaponry of middle ages turned out to be nonsensical? Proven by practitioners of that history - guys wearing suits of armor and hitting each other with blunt sticks? WW2 is an even harder field of study than that, and we see "professional" historians time and time again quoting sources like white emigres, nazis, defectors, straight up quote orders like 13666/2 and only having doubts of the validity of said order when THE DATE DIDN'T MATCH - like, come the fuck on.

And criticism of historical sources in historians' words amounts to "we need to bring this source up to the academic field, bro, we neeed to ask others if it's true or not".

You say you are involved in the field, right? So, >>618403 again this shit. It's declassified stat from russian state archives. Why do you don't want to accept that it's true even though you'd be frothing at the mouth defending order 00447 or the like?

>Modern Historiography has serious problems


It's a serious understatement when the pic like this one >>621512 is basically the official history. They even made Katyn the crime of the Soviets, word by word repeating Nazi propaganda. Can you imagine that?

 No.621665

File: 1638106404378.jpg (453.6 KB, 1920x1080, tS1b5OBoNFQ.jpg)

>>621655
>13666/2

Oh, i'm sorry, date error was the SECOND THING that gave it away! The first reason was that Soviets didn't do "ukazanie" orders, they did "prikaz", i guess.

This shit was on Yakovlev's fund site which is now closed since 2018. Apparently, Latyshev first mentioned it in his "Declassified Lenin" book in 1996, which was sponsored by Eltzin's election fund?

 No.621667

>>611847
100 million when Stalin sent them into meat grinder without a rifle.

 No.621669

>>621603
Dude
This thread is a waste of fucking time boyo
This nigha is trying to argue with non-existent wehraboos by being just as retarded as they are

 No.621683

>>621669
You ARE the Wehraboo. >>621512 Look at the pic. 20 million is pretty fucking close to the number from this propaganda booklet (18 million through 1941-1944)

 No.621703

>>621683
Are you denying nazi's policy of mass extermination in the occupied soviet union? How come so few civilians died in your version? Only in siege of Leningrad 500k civilians died at the lowest, highest estimate being 1500k. That makes half of entire civilian losses on the territory of USSR (including occupied UkSSR and BSSR) according to you (>>616855), it doesn't make sense.

 No.621720

>>621683
Shut up you fucking moron

 No.621722

>>621683
People like you are exact proof that anarkids aren’t entirely wrong when they say MLs make themselves look like cringey jackasses

 No.621798

>>621703
>Are you denying nazi's policy of mass extermination in the occupied soviet union?

Why "mass extermination" must mean tens of millions of people? 6 millions of jews is mass extermination already. 500 thousands serbs out of 13 million large Yugoslavia is also mass extermination.

>Only in siege of Leningrad 500k civilians died at the lowest, highest estimate being 1500k.


Again, half the population was evacuated out of the city. It's the same insane shit as with crimean tatar deportations - inconsistencies between "researcher" estimates of population and reported numbers is judged as the proof that the difference is the number of people dead. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%AD%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%B2_%D0%9B%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B5

Check this fucking link out! "Oh yeah, Soviets evacuated 1.7 million Leningrad citizen, but you see, city's pre-war population was 7 million!" Might be just an error, though. Also, it says that 770 thousands were evacuated before November 1941.

http://www.ainros.ru/materPP/520PobPrib.htm
https://reshal.ru/%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BC%D1%8B%D1%88%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C-%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B0-%D0%B2-%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%8B-%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%BE/

Both say around 50% of Leningrad's war industry was relocated behind Urals. Leningrad's war industry consituted 75% of city's industry and employed 565k workers.

From random sources, 500k were evacuated via ice routes on Ladoga in 1941-42 winter, and 500k more via boats before 1942-1943 winter. 50k more were evacuated during the 1941-1942 winter via airplanes.

So, official population of Leningrad in 1943 was around 600k. 20k out of those were newborns, apparently, and 150k workers of war industries. I dunno, it sounds strange.

I got it where you got the idea about Minsk and Kiev, those same sources mentioned "if Leningrad surrendered, it would have lost 90% population like Kiev and Minsk did". Well, I don't have any data like that one from 1952 to check those claims. I suspect the same old trick of "overinflate pre-war pop, deflate post-war pop, calculate the difference and present it as deaths under communist regime".

>>621722
>Can't disprove - call opponent a cringey jackass and say that nobody believes him anyway

>>621720
You said that Soviets have lost 20 million people, or was it 27? Your number is higher than even Nazi propaganda which SERVED TO PERSUADE SOVIET SOLDIERS TO ABANDON USSR AS AN INEFFICIENT MURDERHOUSE. Think it through, lol - you are readily agreeing to 20-27 million deaths figure, higher than Nazi propaganda claims, when there's perfectly fine and reasonable data from 1952 >>618403 and from Stalin in 1946 (7 millions).

 No.621829

>>621798
>Hasn't yet figured out I don't read his long winded Russian boomer rants
Holy shit
Exactly like Eugene

 No.624209


 No.624242

>>620061
>It literally says that in UN yearbook for USSR in 1946. 193 million in 1946.
I didn't say it doesn't, you moron. learn to read
>Nah, there can be no such a thing because it's not census, and USSR was operating in it's day-to-day economy on the real numbers
the documents I posted literally debunk that, lmao. literally read what I posted again, lol. the document from 1951 sent to Bulganin literally states that they had to operate with the approximate number 190 million.
>If your pop statistic for 1941 was true, they would have sent it to the UN in 1946.
It was literally said to you that the number 193 million was the last one made publicly, lol. It is highly probable that they used the first number they could find or they just consider the number from 1940 to reflect reality in 1946 more than the number from 1941.
>Western press was finding post-war population numbers different from 193 million and even higher after 1945, and quoting "Soviet officials" as the source.
yeah, and totally not pulling them from their arse, lmao. imagine believing "western press"

>>620126

>NOOOOOOO!!!!!!! THE DOCUMENTS ARE FAKERINO WRITEN BY THE SAME TYPEWRITINO!!1

lmao, no they weren't, kek

>Note that your set of data doesn't even have dates written into the blanks

only the last one doesn't have a date and that's only because it was obviously written in the same date as the previous one, lol

>>620134
>NOOOOOOOO!!!! I DON'T LIKE THE GUY WHO PUBLISHED THEM THAT MUST MEAN THEY ARE FAKES NOOOOOO
literally not an argument, lol

Balayev's retard school in its beauty ,lmao


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