Anonymous 2021-12-25 (Sat) 14:40:51 No. 660050
>go to DSA meeting >no discussion of politics just fighting over gendered language. >same at the communist party
Anonymous 2021-12-25 (Sat) 15:16:41 No. 660077
>>660050 That's your fault for only going to glowopped "communist" orgs. Go figure.
Anonymous 2021-12-25 (Sat) 18:01:03 No. 660297
im not joining a communist org since at this point in proletarian organization they're more of a burden than anything
Anonymous 2021-12-25 (Sat) 18:13:24 No. 660315
Do any orgs actually do illegal or shit that doesn't consist of token acts of solidarity?
Anonymous 2021-12-25 (Sat) 18:17:08 No. 660317
>>660315 there's some that've fought the police and shit whenever they crack down on labour movements and protests
Anonymous 2021-12-25 (Sat) 19:07:57 No. 660370
>>660315 Yes, for that you need to find the anti-revisionist parties
Anonymous 2021-12-25 (Sat) 19:12:59 No. 660375
>>660315 plenty of anarchist groups kicking down trashcans
Anonymous 2021-12-25 (Sat) 23:08:48 No. 660713
I remember some pretty funny experiences with an inter-ideological meeting of many communists I once went to. People from parties and non-affiliated commies alike were there, some extremely, extremely bizarre people and exchanges occurred. The highlight was probably a maoist and titoist almost starting a fight after a heated discussion which devolved into them calling each other a fascist and whatnot. Pretty amusing stuff.
Anonymous 2021-12-25 (Sat) 23:11:50 No. 660717
>>660704 they sound kind of cool actually what the hell
i agree, they should branch out to the smaller industrial cities. they’re conservative af at least in the bourgeois strata, but so is anywhere really
Anonymous 2021-12-25 (Sat) 23:25:24 No. 660735
>>660704 Was it a CPC or CPC-ML meeting? If it's the former and you keep attending I may run into you.
Anonymous 2021-12-25 (Sat) 23:30:30 No. 660738
>>660735 cpc, i don't live in toronto anymore however and now i've more or less just been working with certain NDP people and some of the little anarchkiddy groups in my city
Anonymous 2021-12-25 (Sat) 23:34:01 No. 660741
>>660738 What's your impression of the NDP? I have some friends who are members so I know there's an undercurrent of Trots and old-school socdems who are constantly struggling against the neoliberal/radlib tide.
Anonymous 2021-12-25 (Sat) 23:36:39 No. 660742
>>660741 its a weird mesh, i don't really like working with the NDP on any level but local, the guy who ran it in my area was a union guy and had ties to the IWW as a teenager
Anonymous 2021-12-25 (Sat) 23:51:55 No. 660763
>>660758 I've had friends from there, and the impression I got from them was that it's full of spoiled rich kids who like to LARP as rednecks, go around wearing Bass Pro Shops hats and camo etc. They do this even when their dads are hedge fund managers who work on Bay Street. As a Northerner who grew up around actual poor rural people this image infuriates me.
Anonymous 2021-12-26 (Sun) 00:00:34 No. 660771
>>660763 thats oro which is sorta part of barrie, basically a place where toronto people go to larp as country people (as well as upper-middle class people in general)
Anonymous 2021-12-26 (Sun) 00:08:57 No. 660777
>>660771 >thats oro which is sorta part of barrie, basically a place where toronto people go to larp as country people Inshallah it will be razed to the ground during the revolution.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 02:38:30 No. 662330
>>660077 Well how would you find ones that aren't 'glowopped "communist" orgs'?
>>660436 Nice.
tfw living in america-adjacent country that still needs a decade before cold war legacy dies out. >>660315 I've seen footage of some getting arrested but not doing illegal things. Make of that what you will.
I wouldn't categorize all acts of solidarity 'token', like actual useful material support of people. communities and unions, mutual aid, etc.. []
>>660317 love to hear it
>>660704 >lets reach out to the quintessential proletariat <they're all conservative fuckheads why the fuck do they think we're reaching out to them?
>>660735 (et al.)
inb4 leftypol meetup
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 02:41:09 No. 662333
>>662330 off-topic but I love how the police grab him just as the anthem says "We are young and free".
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 05:19:47 No. 662496
>attend DSA meeting over zoom (because covid) >sent a document about last month's topic and general rules at meeting like letting new people/women and minorities speak first >kinda cringe but ok >listen to them talk about the DSA's monthly projects >a few discuss local issues and how to combat them >treasurer talks about financial issues with the local chapter >chairman recommends a book everyone should read and compares it to the communist manifesto but says its optional >meeting ends with discussing future DSA chapter meetups
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 05:20:54 No. 662498
>>662496 Everyone there was between 25 and 50.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 05:56:29 No. 662518
>>660006 My org is responsible for removing all the retarded ultra and utopian takes i used to have. I admire them immensely. They might not be theoretical juggernauts but they are worth more than many who have memorized marx.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 05:57:04 No. 662519
>>660006 >look for an org >they're literally all based in college areas or the local gentrified hipster hive retirement town >an org finally does meet in my area >they're set up in the arts district >tell me to go sell newspapers at the local college It was at that moment that I realized that there was something deeply wrong with the American left and that they were more a movement of disillusioned academics, bohemians and the "counter-culture" than a movement of workers.
There's also a "Maoist" Gonzaloid faction here that literally just tries to get people arrested for no reason.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 06:18:43 No. 662530
>>662524 oh fuck this is my fear
like can you not tell them those are quintessential tools of both capitalism and federal agents? yeah, i get it, 'another fucking service', but I'd hope an org could get on board.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 06:57:11 No. 662544
>>662530 As if the feds couldn’t just plant a wire or a agent in IRL meetings if they wanted to. If they aren’t discuss top-sercet/illegal shit and just mundane bureaucratic shit then it should be fine.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 07:12:30 No. 662549
>>662524 Leftist organizations use zoom while rightoid fascist organizations use element.io, mastodon and encrypted chats.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 07:28:55 No. 662559
>>662557 >franchise activism >veganism >charity yeah, that's not praxis
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 07:38:48 No. 662569
>>662559 true. but voting for a chairman of a ten-member communist party and taking pics with a flag on Marx's birthday totally is
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 07:53:22 No. 662584
>>662530 well it's like a catch 22
the actual workers are mostly normies and don't know or aren't comfortable with alternative platforms, so organizing the actual people tends to go through those mediums because it's where the people are
>organizing with good security >organizing the actual proletariat pick one (at best)
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 07:57:27 No. 662588
There's a CPUSA in my area but it's just an extension of the Democrats complete with nothing but black boomers as members
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 08:43:17 No. 662633
>>662549 [nta]
What's your evidence? Sure, which I would I like but they often do it out of necessity.
1) Increased normie hatred for nazis than commies
Simply being known to be a nazi has ramifications in areas I know. You could easily lose some jobs over that, compared to being a socialist (which isn't perceived as a 'hate group').
2) Platform prejudice.
As a result of the above point, Zoom is more likely to kick you off.
3) Government shutdowns
Unless your group is doing anarchist praxis or planning an insurgency, you're lower on the government's shitlist than nazis. Their paranoia is more justified, even if we should hold it dear as well
4)
and here is the big one
We have almost a 90 year history of fucking up Nazis in real life. America antifa may be gimp'd but in Europe they put axes through doors and kneecap the booj.
I couldn't find that nordic antifasch video where they're literally knocking through a door with an axe, so just have a normal Nazi home invasion:
https://kollectiva.media/w/3dea9f0d-cf78-4196-825b-d72a0257c31d - onion:
http://klktv54valq67z2llp6ew7cejyepqgcrnpaf2xhwlq7o64ufk5tb6kid.onion/w/3dea9f0d-cf78-4196-825b-d72a0257c31d Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 08:45:23 No. 662635
>>662588 >a motion to establish a reparations committee failed to pass …to do what, exactly?
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 08:59:26 No. 662645
>>662588 >reparations committee What the fuck is that?
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 09:41:33 No. 662662
>>662524 Tell em why it's bad instead of feeling sorry for yourself like a schizoid.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 10:58:21 No. 662683
>join social democrat party >Youth wing is full of commies >Adult wing is full of commies >Build out network of commies >Vote commies into leadership >Change internal workings of youth wing >Socdems freak out >Get entire youth wing purged, get many adult members purged >Massive split >New party soon >Active discussion on organising >Actual good politics >Entire youth wing is pretty anti idpol
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 11:02:55 No. 662685
>>662530 >>662549 Autists, read some books on organising
If you're not being actively persocuted and can operate legally, you should do so to actually effectively recruit. if you live under actual repression, your party isn't a mass party but a secret party. Either one requires massively different ways of organising. Not using Facebook or zoom is just larping bullshit. Facebook increases your reach. Zoom is just a platform on which to hold meetings which, if you're not a retard, don't discuss anything illegal, and you can switch to any new platform at will at any time.
You should never rely on corporate owner platforms as your main point of information, but you should use every channel possible to let people know of your existance.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 11:04:44 No. 662687
>>662683 >split >feels good man why do commies think ideological purity is a worthwhile goal? so fifteen if you will split, good luck achieving anything
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 11:06:04 No. 662689
>>662687 >Implying the succdem purge wasn’t the ones causing a split Brainrot
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 11:09:38 No. 662691
>>662687 The socdems purged us
Also I don't mind establishing the largest communist org unhindered by retarded socdems who are also nationalistic and xenophobic. The new party is going to be larger than the cultish communist party and unite several other seperate communist groups into a single org, in addition to the communist cadre of the socdem party.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 11:17:10 No. 662697
>>662683 Sounds good comrade rat.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 11:18:20 No. 662699
>>660315 No, illegalism and adventurism are destructive policies. Communist are supposed to be mass parties, not anarchist larp groups that get arrested every other week.
only if you can get away with it and it actually helps Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 11:37:11 No. 662712
>>662699 Nobody said "illegalism" you goddamn eurocommunist.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 11:41:03 No. 662717
>>662713 >>662691 What are people's opinions on engaging in entryism with the intention of splitting the party in question? On the one hand it can help you establish an independent communist org with a ready-made base of experienced members. On the other hand it can lead to a lot of animosity between you and the socdems which can seriously harm the overall power of the workers by splitting them into hostile camps.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 11:43:23 No. 662721
>>662717 Why should the initial intent be splitting? Transition may not be as simple but seems like the best outcome.
Splitting makes more drama, more animosity, and two small groups instead of one medium-sized group.
t. inexperienced
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 11:45:58 No. 662724
>>662721 >Why should the initial intent be splitting? Well generally it isn't. Usually with entryism the aim is to radicalize the rank and file and try to turn them against the moderate leadership. The reasoning is that in a best case scenario this will result in a takeover of the party, and in a worst case scenario you will be purged but be able to take a substantial chunk of sympathizers with you.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 11:49:01 No. 662725
>>662724 Exactly, which is why I asked why it should be an initial intent (as suggested by "engaging in entryism with the intention of splitting the party in question").
Ideally I would hope it would never be the intent, but an option if purged/etc..
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 11:57:31 No. 662729
>>662717 >>662721 >>662724 >>662725 It was never even entryism. For it to be entryism you need a group from the outside to plan entryism and conduct it.
It was all people who were never part of any group before had been part of the socialist party for a decade or more. We didn't know any of each other before joining.
We never wanted a split, but I guess the socdems do, so here we are.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 12:00:18 No. 662730
>>662729 (We have reached out and proposed many ways to work together rather than fight, simply by allowing us to do stuff like, gasp, talk to people outside of our local groups and gasp, collectively submit proposals.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 12:10:03 No. 662734
>>662728 can someone translate? all I got is that the SP Rotterdam section split into a new party called The Socialists 010.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 12:41:53 No. 662754
>>662734 Yeah that's basically it. Also current socialist party municipal faction joins socialists 010
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 13:37:24 No. 662788
>>662729 >>662730 >We have reached out and proposed many ways to work together rather than fight That's good to hear. I think the best way to handle splits like this is to very publicly act more mature, and demonstrate that you hold the interests of the workers above petty partisan squabbles. Unity with the social democratic workers always, unity with the social democratic leadership when they are actually fighting for the workers.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 13:38:33 No. 662789
>Find communist youth organization >They're highly prepared theoretically >Well disciplined >Zero revisionism >Be about to join them <Party Secretary of the org starts a huge rightwing shift in the hope of attracting boomers and right wingers, with massive cringeworthy stuff ensuing <Entire Youth branch gets expelled from the party <Probably other 10 to 15 years needed begore all of this will be fixed
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 13:46:40 No. 662793
>>662789 Join us comrade. We are stronger than ever.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 13:52:29 No. 662794
>>662793 And on the offchance that you're not talking about ROOD, hit me (comrade rat) up on the fbi.gov.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 14:00:22 No. 662798
>>662794 Matrix? I probably mistyped. Ma t r i x
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 14:04:03 No. 662801
>>662794 fbi.gov is d i s c o r d
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 14:06:02 No. 662803
>>662801 Yeah sorry my brain is all over the place and wrote fbi.gov when I meant matrix. Brain a fuck 100000 dead feds praise mao
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 14:11:36 No. 662808
I was one year a member of the main communist party in my country (Germany), this is what I experienced:>99,9% Boomers >factions inside the party sabotaging each other all the time, which made organized action basically impossible >Alcoholism (No meeting without beer and wine) >Media and info material from the 70s - their overall understanding of media was stuck in the last century. >Unreliability of fellow members
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 14:12:25 No. 662809
>>662803 oh god the imperialist computer god frankenstein controls parroting puppet made them type disgord instead of matrix! we're doomed!!1
>>662807 i was saying boo-urns……..
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 14:15:23 No. 662814
>>662807 Sing out of the bird app, waffleman.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 14:19:24 No. 662818
>>662808 >factions inside the party sabotaging each other all the time, which made organized action basically impossible In what way?
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 14:35:35 No. 662829
>>662807 Jules here,
This couldn't be me as I have always agitated against a national split from the Dutch Socialist party within ROOD and the Communist platform.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 14:40:47 No. 662837
Why do they have a separate youth wing and why do they seem to keep getting purged? Does it mean the kids are alright?
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 14:46:54 No. 662842
>>662818 >In what way? Once we had municipal elections and the party had an official program for that. But one sub group disliked the program so they boycotted it and openly declared, that we should vote for DIE LINKE instead. And things like that happened all the time. Official agreements of the party were simply ignored by some groups and they did what ever they want.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 14:51:36 No. 662848
>>662842 Cringe.
Unity of action is a core aspect of communist parties, even if factions may exist.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 15:09:36 No. 662863
>>662848 I agree and this was also one of the main reasons, what killed my motivation. I genuinely wanted to dedicate my efforts to the party, but it is just disappointing when you see, when your "fellow comrades" are actively undermining your efforts. At some point you just think, WTF AM I EVEN DOING?
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 16:03:16 No. 662937
College student here who still has barely any life experiences. Do orgs assist labor unions? Is it possible to participate in your labor union and your org, with both benefitting from one another?
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 16:05:13 No. 662940
>>662937 It depends on the organization in question, what their rules are for dual membership in things like a union, what their line is towards organized labour, etc. It obviously varies a lot between them.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 16:05:51 No. 662942
>>662793 Anon i was talking about an ML org in Italy, I find it difficult to join your org lol.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 16:06:33 No. 662946
>>662937 >Do orgs assist labor unions? They fucking should
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 16:07:11 No. 662947
>>662937 In theory for cadres participating to unions that have high relevance in a given area (or are highly militant) is strongly suggested.
Lenin even wrote about that iirc.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 16:07:29 No. 662948
>>662942 Whats the name? Theres several of these cases happening over europe right now.
Hungary, austria, the netherlands, now italy. Maybe we can make a commie youth pact.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 16:09:07 No. 662951
>>662829 >ROOD >party literally named RUDE and they expect people to join…
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 16:09:37 No. 662952
>>662948 Fronte della Gioventù Comunista (FGC).
At the international level they're aligned with KKE,TKP,PCTE and a bunch of other parties.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 16:10:58 No. 662956
>>662948 I think there are several such cases because boomer leadership weighs like a nightmare on communist parties.
To succeed we should get rid of the same people which failed in the last 30 years.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 16:25:43 No. 662972
>>662569 >I have to invent a false dichotomy to justify my activities This is what a shitty person you are.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 16:35:05 No. 662986
>>662940 How many lines towards organized labor can there be? Isn't the consolidation of worker power the foundation of socialist thought?
Also, I'm also not an American, so I don't know everything about there. Why do I not hear of any communist orgs assisting the Kellogg's workers? Are they not allowed to "interfere"?
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 16:47:18 No. 663002
>>662986 >Isn't the consolidation of worker power the foundation of socialist thought? Of course, but shit's complicated. Some argue that the big unions are too firmly controlled by corporate collaborators and corrupt bosses, that joining them is a waste of time etc. Others say that fighting for concessions under capitalism only causes workers to become complacent and lose their militancy. I don't agree with either of these views, but they like most lines they are at least in part based on real problems the Western left has faced in the past.
>Why do I not hear of any communist orgs assisting the Kellogg's workers? Some of them probably did, or at least they issued statements of support. Of course these aren't going to be well publicized in mainstream media.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 16:51:32 No. 663006
So is glorious Jehuism the best praxis, after all?????
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 17:33:56 No. 663037
>>662829 I am memeing Jules,
No hate, just jokes. Don't take my shitposts on this board serious.
I just sometimes disagree with your twitter takes and just hate kaasvreters in general lmao
t. Your based new twitterbanner
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 17:34:00 No. 663038
>>662842 Wow so they are just like DIE LINKE right now! :^)
CPUSA Anon 2021-12-27 (Mon) 17:58:59 No. 663071
>>662683 I'm kind of curious, how could SocDems purge you if you outnumber them (unless I'm reading your post incorrectly).
Just seems to me if you had the numbers on your side, collectively y'all could have said it's your party now and tell the SocDems they aren't welcome anymore.
As a sidenote, SocDems should be purged wherever possible.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 18:07:01 No. 663078
>>663071 >(unless I'm reading your post incorrectly). yea no we werent a majority for several reasons:
1. Upper echilons are all central buro loyalists
2. If you get into a high rank and get too uppitti you got purged in the past as well
3. Groups get votes based on their membership count, but most members arent active.
4. Theres a lot of small groups in the country that dont really do shit but do have voting rights, and they are called upon by the burocracy to vote for the shit the central buro wants.
5. The fact that the party bureau, and not the congress, is the highest body in the party and can uniliterally overule the litteral will of the members.
6. Having online votes the past time in the congress with a giant button that says "vote as per the central committee recommendations" doesnt help much. You also dont get the ammendments much in advance, so people usually just vote as per PB recommendations.
Well i wish, but alas, they purged all the opposition candidates in the last party bureau election.
CPUSA Anon 2021-12-27 (Mon) 18:10:55 No. 663081
>>663078 Ah shit, that sucks Comrade.
I wish y'all the best of luck with your new party though; I'm sure you'll achieve great things!
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 18:16:00 No. 663084
>>663081 why was Haz banned from CPUSA and what is the party going to do when he purged the rad libs?
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 18:56:35 No. 663113
>>662808 >Alcoholism (No meeting without beer and wine) Not literally every meeting, but a common thing in DIE LINKE, yeah. I think this is really more about age than anything. Watch any German or French movies from the 60s, and you always see business people drinking alcohol during meetings. In addition to the official alcohol drinking, it was common to take "medicine" like
Frauengold to "help with stress" or some other hard liquor to "deal with coughing".
>>663105 >guy was indian Caste?
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 18:58:57 No. 663118
>>663105 >>662496 >join a petty bourgeois socdem org >quit because minorities what is the name for this disease
CPUSA Anon 2021-12-27 (Mon) 19:11:25 No. 663131
>>663084 That the infrared dude? No idea who he is, but a lot of YouTube streamers are cancer so that might’ve had something to do with it.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 19:15:29 No. 663134
Anyone here a third worldist that actually has experience supporting third world orgs/groups?
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 19:16:23 No. 663137
>>663117 organize with anarchists
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 19:17:00 No. 663138
>>662807 Anglo here. Is Jules some kind of twitter pundit? Can someone here link his account?
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 19:17:58 No. 663140
>>663134 There are no third worldist groups in the third world. Really makes you think.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 19:23:44 No. 663147
>>663137 That's the thing, I've looked for them, but there are literally next to none. I've spoken with like 2 self-identified anarchists in my entire life, and neither they know what tf to do. The most I've found is a Food not Bombs chapter in a city halfway across the country, but I obviously can't move all the way there just for that. My only option would be to try and organize something myself, but I wouldn't even know where to start.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 19:26:25 No. 663150
>>663140 Did you consider for a moment what might be the motivation for asking?
Being that you are an Anglo degenerate (De Toronto en plus, si je be ne trompes…) I would guess not.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 19:32:08 No. 663155
>>663150 are you in montreal? i heard it has lots of MLM's
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 19:34:28 No. 663156
>>663150 I'm from Northern Ontario actually.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 19:36:20 No. 663157
>>663118 i quit because i couldn't stomach any more of the AES-bashing and lib-style white bashing (i.e. no discussion of imperialism and its material basis, just lib-style white-bad-minority-good style discourse), not "because of minorities." in this case the guy doing the bashing just happened to be a desi. he got a lot of "go off king" type encouragement in the chat from my fellow hwites believe me. and before you accuse of me naively expecting the DSA to support the USSR and whatnot, that's not it either. previously they had just avoided the issue, which is wise because not matter how much us tankies love it it's never coming back and as a topic it only serves to piss people off one way or the other. guess i fell for the bait.
>>663113 no idea, but i think the guy in question went to an ivy league school if that tells you anything.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 19:37:37 No. 663161
>>663157 Did you actually try to push back against this bullshit or did you just say nothing and then stop coming?
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 19:38:19 No. 663162
>>663155 There are a few cities worldwide that are characterized by an odd soup of social groups and political movements.
Montreal, Sydney, Greater Los Angeles, Belgrade, to name a few.
Usually there a confluence old quiet wealth, mafia headquarters, dissident emigres, a somewhat developed tech sector, multiple partial unassimilated ethnicities, etc.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 19:44:53 No. 663168
>>663161 very half-heartedly, yes. i put in chat "communism is democratic" hoping that this beacon would reach some fellow tankies. no such luck. hard to see what i would have to gain by going to the mat for the USSR and AES under my real identity in a room full of idpol-obsessed "democratic socialists." at best i was gonna get ignored.
i failed to mention that the big "community organizing" push that this particular DSA branch came up with was "defending the polls" for the 2020 election. we were discouraged from saying we were from DSA because they didn't want us to scare people away. all of this to defend from a proud boys style boogeyman who never showed up anywhere in the whole fucking state much less the major metro area we "defended." it's LARPers all the way down.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 19:46:36 No. 663173
>>663118 Where did i say that i quit? I myself am not white i just mentioned the racial compionent because this chapter claims to be representing the people and yet they have 1 black man in it. Its weird. The city they are located in is over 60% black.
I quit because this stupid organization has virtually nothing going on. No meetups, no protests, no real action of any sorts. Just meet in zoom once a month and in real life every 6 months at some rundown bar.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 19:56:07 No. 663178
>>663168 Honestly Anon I think you may have fucked up. I mean interpretations of AES is one thing, but at the very least cancerous liberal idpol needs to be squashed in favour of class solidarity and materialist anti-racism. In that situation you never know how many people are keeping their reservations about this radlib nonsense quiet, just going along with things because they fear being ostracized etc. I think the next time you find yourself in such a situation (which as a North American leftist you inevitably will), you should make a stronger effort to push back against this shit, and make the best argument you can in favour of a Marxist approach to fighting racism and building solidarity. You might just plant some seeds of dissent from the radlib line.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 20:02:35 No. 663185
>>663140 maybe feds promote first worldism in the third world
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 20:03:17 No. 663186
>>663185 >first worldism Not a thing.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 20:14:15 No. 663200
>>663168 >we were discouraged from saying we were from DSA because they didn't want us to scare people away cuck shit
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 20:17:53 No. 663207
I think the DSA is deeply confused and disoriented due to the Biden presidency and AOC falling in line completely. In the Trump era, they may have specifically called out the root causes for someone like Trump to become president, but now they just come over like headless chickens. I remember after Biden won the primaries, a big DSA account with a blue check tweeted out that they not going to vote for Biden - the backlash they got was insane and they eventually folded.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 20:28:31 No. 663214
>>663207 >The PSL seems somewhat having a positive outlook, only that they are very strict and a bit cult-ish at times. The PSL seems like they would do a lot better if they would relax just a little bit. I mean I get why act the way they do, in addition to OPSEC they want to be sure that they both attract serious, committed people, as well as keep out revisionists, radlibs, and socdems. I have no doubt that this approach is to a significant extent the reason why they haven't fallen into the trap of tailing the Dems like the CPUSA and DSA do. The problem is that there isn't much point to having the correct line, having good OPSEC, and being well organized if you can't actually translate that into public support and growing your movement.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 20:49:06 No. 663232
>>663138 @geiger_jules on twitter
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 20:55:31 No. 663237
>>663186 First worldism can be defined as some combination of:
The views within the marxist school of thought that contends that there isn't significant unequal exchange between regions; Concretely that the redistribution of value between differentially productive capitals or rent accruing from relative scarcity of some input into production either does not occur significantly or that it has no significant geographic bias or that workers in those regions do not significantly appropriate any if it (either through social programs or higher wages that may be do to them relatively scarce skills, etc.)
With this material analysis, first worldism will argue that there is hence no significant difference in the potential for revolution in different large geographic areas and therefore any strategic attempting to aid groups in particular areas is at best generally equivalent to pouring the same resources into a more local organization.
This said, no organization that adheres to these views calls itself first worldist; Rather it merely is that it is not third worldist, and even then such is only said if the issue is brought up in the first place.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 21:03:11 No. 663242
>>662330 >Well how would you find ones that aren't 'glowopped "communist" orgs'? You read the political line of the parties in question and filter the ones with with claims a kin to a "peaceful road to socialism" or a road besides revolution. Those are not just the orgs controlled as in "where there are a lot of glowies present"; those are the orgs where the glowies dominate(d) the org so thoroughly that they were able to make it their own locus of controlled opposition. Both DSA and CPUSA are such orgs and will be an obstacle to the American working classes
throughout its revolution.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 21:04:37 No. 663244
>>663207 >They effectively act as the left-wing of the Democratic Party and because of the two-party system, leveraging an independent big-tent left-populist platform like the European left parties do is impossible. Interesting (long) article here about the American political system:
https://jacobinmag.com/2021/12/gop-trump-far-right-radicalization-capital/ So, the contention is that the American system was set up from the beginning to stymie political parties. The founders of the country didn't like them. They still developed but never formed into the real political parties that exist in many other countries, and since the 1980s, they've really deteriorated into shells without any real institutional powers of their own, becoming mainly conduits through which money can flow from sources (campaign contributors / business) to destinations (candidates).
Related to this is the increasing disorganization of the capitalist class – that disorganization itself being the result of their historic victory that smashed the New Deal. So, not facing a threat from the working class, the capitalist class has no need to be unified, instead we have a political system determined by a "band of warring brothers" as Marx put it with different groups of capitalists using money to war with each other over their short-term, narrow interests.
That has given an opportunity though for insurgent figures like Trump – a political entrepreneur – to take over the GOP and exploit cleavages within the (weak) Republican Party. That's also been an advantage to the left, though, because while Bernie lost he still nearly captured the (weak) Democratic Party. And the DSA has elected socialist candidates in primaries which would be impossible if the Democratic Party was unified by a strong establishment with the ability to squash insurgents (although they do try).
It's a problem for the left too though:
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 21:05:15 No. 663246
how are the ICT (Internationalist Communist Tendency)
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 21:05:33 No. 663247
>>663237 >This said, no organization that adheres to these views calls itself first worldist; Rather it merely is that it is not third worldist You just defined these terms in a way that not being one of these implies being the other.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 21:05:41 No. 663248
>>663242 >You read the political line of the parties in question and filter the ones with with claims a kin to a "peaceful road to socialism" or a road besides revolution. Instead, you should join the orgs that advocate a people's war and blowing up government buildings. Those are totally not glow ops.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 21:12:16 No. 663257
>>663237 Third worldism is fucking stupid.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 21:14:46 No. 663258
>>663247 Pretty much. Its not the labels that are that important here,but the underlying views and strategies.
One could maybe make a non-dichotomy if one included those that advocate for revolutionary activity on the basis of more idpol like concerns (like sakaism sort of does). But honestly I think that muddles the issues because those groups, though they may be communist, do not operate within a marxist framework fundamentally.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 21:16:32 No. 663261
>>663237 >The views within the marxist school of thought that contends that there isn't significant unequal exchange between regions >With this material analysis, first worldism will argue that there is hence no significant difference in the potential for revolution in different large geographic areas Lmao so "first worldism" consists of supposed socialists who deny the existence of imperialism? I'm not sure there are any orgs which hold this line, and if there are then feel free to name some.
CPUSA Anon 2021-12-27 (Mon) 21:22:25 No. 663264
>>663242 Historically speaking, Glowies were the ones advocating immediate, violent revolution and proclaiming parties to have fallen into revisionism. See: The Ad-Hoc Committee for a Marxist-Leninist Party.
The point being feds seem more interested into splitting groups and bagging socialists on crimes than convincing them that there's a peaceful road to revolution.
>>663244 I legitimately think that we're gonna see one of the big two parties collapse in the immediate future. On the one hand the Democrats are fighting a constant battle to keep an aging demographic of neolibs in power and progressives out, while the Republicans are pretty much loathed by anyone under 40.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 21:28:51 No. 663274
>>663248 Fun fact: this is a false dichotomy and you would know this if you weren't so overtly ignorant of the movement you're supposedly apart of (communism).
Enjoy irrelevance in your eurocommunist party. Really. In practically every national context you have the goofs like you who are duped by this transparent fedop and you have the ones that read and join the actual ML party, or any of the other deviations. Accusatory ThirdWorldism is the necessary strawman you have to cope through you day to day delusional way of life.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 21:33:36 No. 663276
>>662937 In my ML party, union membership is mandatory for any party member (if they have access to an union locally).
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 21:36:04 No. 663282
>>663261 Read carefully. Its not that necessarily claim that there isn't imperialism, but rather the spoils of it and uneven development flow only or mostly to the capitalist class (haute bourgeoisie), instead of a significant amount going to a large petty bourgeois and labour aristocratic segments (and even towards the poor working class and lumpen to some extent due to social programs)
(Though some, like Paul Cockshott do deny that unequal exchange is a valid concept altogether)
Ultimately, a third worldist analysis attempts to explain:
1. Why no revolutionary movement has succeeded in the advanced capitalist countries.
2. Why communist movements tended to fall prey to reformust, eurocom, socdem, etc.
3. Why it is so easy to divide communist sympathizers in these countries on the basis culture war issues.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 21:42:34 No. 663284
>>663282 * I should add it doesn't attempt to say that life isn't shitty for people first world;
Its merely that they have more to lose then just their chains until the flow of surplus becomes more disrupted.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 21:42:51 No. 663285
>>663282 Citing imperialism and the benefits thereof as an explanation for why there has not been a revolution in the first world isn't third-worldism. Most modern socialists (or at least Marxists) would fall under this umbrella. Third worldism denies that there is a first world proletariat at all, it argues that everybody in the first world is a net-exploiter.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 21:51:01 No. 663292
>>663285 Wrong. Third worldism does claim that net exploitation exists in the first world but that:
1. The proportion of the population subjected is significantly small (the petit bouj and labour aristocracy are relatively larger)
2. The magnitude of net exploitation is smaller for a large segment of those subject to it.
3. Usually those who do live in third world like conditions tend to be unemployed or in the grey/black labour market (eg. Appalachian former mining towns and illegal migrant plantation workers)
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 21:55:39 No. 663301
>>663292 In that case you have to acknowledge that there is a category in between supposed "first worldists" and "third worldists", a category that recognizes the role of imperialism in suppressing revolutionary impulses in first world workers while rejecting the statement that the proletariat constitute only a small segment of the first world population. This is where the majority of Marxists in both the first and third world will fall.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 22:05:01 No. 663310
>>663261 >I'm not sure there are any orgs which hold this line, and if there are then feel free to name some. The Alliance for Workers' Liberty is the worst example of this. They don't formally deny the existence of imperialism, but their views conveniently align with Atlantic capital on anything related to war and trade. The most striking example is when they enthusiastically supported Jihadist forces against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, then reversed course and denounced them as "Islamo-fascists" once the US wanted to invade.
Mike Macnair of the Weekly Worker has a bunch of polemical articles BTFOing them. In each one he comes up with a new mocking acronym for AWL. The latest is "Atlanticists for Workers’ Liberalism".
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 22:09:37 No. 663313
>>663310 Sounds awful tbh, and reading their wiki they really seem like a caricature of Trot splitting and newspaper peddling. Still though, it doesn't seem as if "first worldism" is a major trend, and neither is third worldism for that matter.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 22:12:19 No. 663314
>>663301 Wrong. Such a category would fall within first worldism. The demarcating line is quantitative.
While one could nitpick about where exactly it lies, clearly someone who believes half the first world population constitues a significantly exploited or excluded population is first worldist (since then he does believe there significant revolutionairy potential in the first world, even if he believes it is higher in the third world at 85-95% of population)
The person on the other hand who says 10-20% is significantly exploited or excluded is obviously third worldist in this scheme.
To be fair you though, the distinction you make can be useful in distinguishing between first worldists (Compare Paul Cockshott to Michael Roberts or Alan Freeman for example).
With the latter the issue is less categorical and empirical (ie. How big of a gap does it take for the third worldist strategy to make sense).
—
Off topic but related, my policy is not to attack first worldist individuals or organizations unless directly attacked by them (and even then).
I recommend you do the same in the inverse: Using time and energy attacking each other is wasteful.
Think of it this way: How does it benefit fw organizing attacking a handful of people who send a few hundred bucks to desperately poor people far away?
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 22:13:03 No. 663316
>>662942 What part of 'the international movement' don't you understand? Join all the orgs!
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 22:14:32 No. 663318
>>662979 >nazis are paranoid because larpers attack them If LARPing works, then power to the people.
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 22:39:18 No. 663351
what do orgs do?
Anonymous 2021-12-27 (Mon) 22:43:04 No. 663359
>>663335 Wrong again: We are saying that best way to achieve world revolution is by helping third world movements; Ie. as more states go socialist in the third world the flow of value is cut off making social democracy less sustainable and reducing first world living standard (this has already happened to a modest degree due to a combination national liberation, rise of China, etc.)
There is plenty to do, but the focus towards whom it is immediately is changed.
—
Even though my policy is not to attack fw orgs. I know that at least some of the reason we are attacked is precisely because of the limited pool of people we can draw money from in the fw that we are in competition for. This follows from third worldist theory.
That said, glowie divide and conquer tactics, misunderstandings, and identitarian feelings also contribute and should be mitigated. Its why I am trying to explain the position here to you now, even if you disagree, you at least won't bother wasting your time in the future and can explain to a third worldist that may fall into the same trap that though you disagree there is good reason to cease attacks.
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 07:23:06 No. 663821
>>663351 Check edu. There was a thread about this.
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 09:28:50 No. 663850
>>663147 >but I wouldn't even know where to start. can you volunteer at local charities?
If options are that thin on the ground, perhaps any group or org at all is a better start than none?
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 11:25:13 No. 663895
>>663359 Well I can always appreciate non-sectarianism, but I still find it baffling how somebody could hold a third-worldist position when most actual third world Marxist movements don't.
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 11:49:52 No. 663913
>>663895 Most workers in the world don't hold Marxist positions, and yet I don't find it baffling that a person can still support Marxism.
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 11:57:02 No. 663918
>>663913 I don't think that's a good analogy but w/e. What about concessions to first world workers. Do you not see that as an effective means of straining the overall viability of capitalism by reducing the rate of profit?
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 12:55:44 No. 663951
>>663207 I was a founding member and officer of a DSA chapter, and the lesson I learned is that your popularity and influence is inversely proportional to how radical you are. We were quite extreme for DSA, had plenty of Maoist and ML members to balance out the demsocs, we read Marx, Lenin and lots of hard anti-imperialist works and even collab'd with a couple Trot groups on readings and lectures.
It all came to nothing though, multiple workers told us we were wasting time and that it was hopeless to our face; the local unions wouldn't talk to us because we were critical and wanted them to endorse M4A; all the small-time candidates we endorsed for local office lost horribly. The local anarchist cliques denounced us after we helped them get set up, because we weren't following their playbook of charity work + getting arrested in street demos.
I moved to a smaller college town and the difference is palpable. The DSA chapter here is larger and much more popular because it only pushes idpol and local reforms that don't challenge the Democrats, therefore they're able to draw on support from rich bleeding heart liberals and college students here.
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 13:00:14 No. 663954
>>663951 Just goes to show that the most decisive factor in the success of a radical movement are material conditions beyond our control. Obviously people aren't going to support radical solutions unless they feel like their situation is dire enough. Still, I think there is important work we can do under such unfavorable conditions, especially with the rank and file of organizations like unions.
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 13:07:28 No. 663958
>>663918 To agitate for such things is in my view has too high opportunity costs:
1. Even if succesful all it does is delay revolution in fw countries (rather than increase the dépravation and antagonisms).
2. Eventually such concession will be struggled against and cut,leading back to the initial conditions but with delay.
3. Having nations in the third world go socialist cuts the rate of profit in first world countries as well.
The last one is the big one: One can support a person full time with only hundred or so dollars a month struggling in the third world whereas in first world it would take at least a thousand or two per month.
—
By the by, I readily understand the emotional attachment fwdists have to their strategies: They have strong emotional commitments to their immediate surroundings, be it family, friends, neighborhoods, etc. This is why they are drawn to struggling locally: They implicitly want a better life as soon as possible for their immediate kin.
This combined to the inherent prisoner's dilemma like logic that is the struggle for socialism, to my mind explains the emotional hostility twdists face.
I also recognize that it is relatively easy for me to assimilate tw strategy into my praxis being that I am single with few local friends and family, and that those bonds are relatively weak.
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 13:15:57 No. 663963
>>663951 >It all came to nothing though, multiple workers told us we were wasting time and that it was hopeless to our face That was your chance to engage
seriously it really was Why didn't/couldn't you?
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 13:17:29 No. 663964
>>663962
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 13:32:23 No. 663971
>>663964 Ignore the troll, he readily admits to being a waste of space and life.
t. twdist
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 13:36:21 No. 663974
>>663958 >Even if succesful all it does is delay revolution in fw countrie That assumes that the concessions in question are capable of being sustained for significant periods of time, which is highly debatable imo. There's also the issue of actually building up support for the communist party, so that when people finally do become receptive to those ideas the communists will he known as staunch allies of the workers instead of an anonymous clique of literally who's.
>Eventually such concession will be struggled against and cut,leading back to the initial conditions but with delay. That increases antagonisms Anon. The whole point is to force porky to strike back against the concessions, which fuels conflict and radicalization.
>Having nations in the third world go socialist cuts the rate of profit in first world countries as well. Which is why both struggles are important.
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 14:13:48 No. 664007
>>663974 As I said, there is an important opportunity cost.
Moreover as can be plainly demonstrated in this thread, fw people generally, due to their material conditions are really quite unreceptive/antagonistic to communist views.
That being said, go ahead and try to put together a party/org. My prediction is that it will remain marginal for the long forseeable future.
(And before you accuse of defeatism, a reminder again is that both strategies aim for revolution in the current first world regions, they differ only means and the timeframe in which they think it is realistic).
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 14:22:08 No. 664012
>>663963 It's hard to articulate an answer in an org as disorganized and theory-less as DSA. But it was interesting talking to the various workers who showed up to one or two meetings. The trucker who wanted to do an online anti-capitalist internet show, the active military guy who bemoaned how conservative and individualist his co-workers were, the Saudi kid who got deported for shitposting about the king.
I think we functioned best as a left-clearinghouse advertising and raising awareness of all the various left-causes going on in the area. Trying to centralize and articulate more of a line would turn off people immediately, and we'd end up like the Trots we talked to who were literally just a party of three people.
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 14:27:03 No. 664018
>>664007 >fw people generally, due to their material conditions are really quite unreceptive/antagonistic to communist views Of course, but they aren't unreceptive to people who come to help them in the struggles of their daily lives. You aren't going to convince people of the necessity of revolution until their conditions become so dire as to make them see it. However they are likely to have a far more favorable view of communists who support them in strikes, fight against austerity, and provide mutual aid than those who do nothing appreciable for them. Even if this does not produce revolution, it at the very least will improve relations between communists and workers, as well as allow us to improve our organizational skills and tactics. This is the difference between a war of position and a war of maneuver. When fighting the former we have to accept that our options are limited, but this doesn't mean that we should be neglecting what we can do in anticipation of conditions changing, or the role we might play in bringing about such a change. Moreover, none of this is mutually exclusive with mutual aid to third world comrades and opposition to imperialism. I don't think that we are helping the movements of the third world by refusing to apply pressure to capital in the first.
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 14:59:24 No. 664051
>>660307 Comrade, finally I see someone here that really does praxis. And yes, most people always ask is for concrete solutions, and material analysis almost gives you the right ideas.
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 15:01:58 No. 664054
>>664036 >Not trying to convert them to our "ideology" or whatever, but just filling a hole in the line during the night shift. That's good Anon, but at the same time I think we should be trying to plant the seeds of genuine class consciousness. That doesn't mean be an autist and preach the virtues of Stalin or whatever, but it does mean trying to link people's everyday problems to our social order when discussing them in casual conversation.
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 15:09:33 No. 664062
>>664049 i'm not joining a party since it would just be attempts to constantly tail at best
a lot of successful communist orgs like the RSDLP/Bolsheviks were merged from actual proletarian struggles for self-organization
no, popular fronts or whatever cannot emulate that either
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 15:20:07 No. 664072
>>664051 Thanks man. The problem I've encountered when trying to organize is that most people are just really blackpilled. It's not so much the argument that "socialism doesn't work" but rather that the situation is hopeless with mounting problems in the world that would require solutions on such a gargantuan scale while a corrupted, gaslighting class of politicians act as gatekeepers against real change. I've never even met somebody who claimed that capitalism will work forever, everybody knows that we will have to move onward towards some sort of different, some sort of socialized, planned systems at a point but they don't know how to get there.
Also, most people hate conservatives. The only people who liked conservatives were people where I could already see based on their expensive suit or handbag that they have a lot of money - or are just old as fuck. This idea that the "true working class" is conservative is bullshit - it's true that most people are not into woke shit either, it's rather that they just don't care and don't wanna tell other people how to live their lives and don't wanna be told how to live their lives either.
I know I'm sounding trivial now, but it's sobering when you log off and try to interact with other people, so it sometimes is that simple.
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 15:31:13 No. 664079
>>664062 The Bolsheviks went from clandestine meetings with a few thousand members to a mass organization with tens of thousands of members within the span of three years. The CPC started with a dozen delegates on a houseboat and became an organization that could bring millions of soldiers into the field.
>popular front Any popular front would require the investigation of what are potential coalition partners. This highly depends on the situation in your country. Is it farmers? Intelligentsia? Downwardly mobile petty bourgeois? You would have to look what specific interests classes and stratas have, and how they can be reconciled towards a broader struggle against monopoly capital. I'm for a new popular front because just organizing within the leftist milieu with other small organizations that have stagnated for years has led to nowhere. So has union work. Social democratic unions have become graveyards of class struggle, as long as their leadership isn't replaced or when unions break away from the ITUC and join the World Union Federation that is communist we shouldn't put too much hope into union work while remaining to be union members, because what else.
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 15:41:33 No. 664095
>>664018 Due to limited time and resources, there is a trade off between a given dollar, kilojoule, second spent helping third world movements and first world ones in a given period.
This is a material root cause of the antagonism between fw and tw oriented praxis.
Beware of narratives that suggest that one or the other is merely being irrational. As I said in a priory view is that the underlying motivations for fwdism are non-rational; So while particular analyses may be incorrect, the ultimate motivations their practice fall outside the scope of correct/incorrect analysis.
Which is why, I have to emphasize again, I don't think their efforts are necessarily wrong (because your implicit goals are different); Rather I merely see them as a far less effective strategy for bringing about socialism relatively sooner, irrespective of whether the analysis a person holds is correct or not.
So please go ahead and build your orgs, hold your rallies, etc. But there is no need to attack and accuse third worldism of this or that. Eg. CPGB-ML focuses mostly on issues in Britain and some anti-imperialism. Zero time and energy is wasted on attacks and accusations that achieve nothing.
Next time you see a third worldist, unless they explicitly harass you, just ignore them.
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 15:48:22 No. 664098
>>664095 >As I said in a priory view is that the underlying motivations for fwdism are non-rational I just gave you a bunch of rational reasons for supporting class struggle in the first world. Maybe you should actually ask what third world Marxists think you should be doing to help them. As far as I know none of the major revolutionary movements in the third world would agree with your dismissal of "first worldism".
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 16:00:23 No. 664113
>>664098 And I gave you a counter argument with a rational basis as well (namely that of opportunity cost and path with fastest results).
And of course one engages with third worlders, that follows directly from the strategy. Money and resources go much further there, and aside from some minor theoretical insight, is what they most desperately need.
As a very modest example, some tw comrades asked me why it is that fw people seemed so obsessed with bizarre sex focused culture war, I explained to them some underlying economic interests at play, and why it would be best to avoid engagement with such personas. I emphasized to focus on interacting with anti-intervention, anti-war, anti-sanctions focused people even if they are non-communist as their views more directly tw communist interests.
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 16:01:38 No. 664114
>>664054 Yeah, I agree with that. But I had just never done that kind of thing before so it was a positive experience.
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 16:05:03 No. 664119
>>662519 >>tell me to go sell newspapers at the local college You outsmart them and sell the newspaper next to the exit of a factory/massive retailer center. Checkmate armchairers.
>>662633 It is interesting, but when Portland (and George Floyd) protests happened last year the FBI did engage in deploying operatives through these gatherings
>>662588 .>You can guess the race of the person who brought this up
A Karen… perhaps? IMO, Reparations is something not possible given the material conditions. Is like an ultra take, but in theory, and I find it a waste of time discussing that. But def, that accuser of house beaner to others should say through different ways and point out the failures of reaching to such discussions.
>>662687 >why do commies >using commie unironically you need to go back, and this:
>>662689 >>663285 >>denies that there is a first world proletariat at all >No, the third world theory what says is that revolutionary potential can only be found in third world countries. Tbh, reject everything written by Mao after Krushit arrived to power. The fact that krushit erased the relationships with China, which was counting on the USSR to progress together, enabled all sort of mental gimnastics from Mao to theorize whetever irrational shit he could bring. Fucking krushit, the more I read about him, the more I despise him to the point is now at the same level with Yeltshin't, he could de-stalinize the USSR but the only thing thing Stalin was doing wrong, straining the Sino-Soviet relationships, he not only stopped that but accelerated it. >663264 >splitting groups and bagging socialists on crimes than convincing them that there's a peaceful road to revolution. There will be always a time for violence, you need to be prepared in any case. That's when finally arrives socialism and the ready-o-be-dead ruling class insists to cling into power.
>>664093 Whoops in this post I misquoted everything all over the place
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 16:17:17 No. 664143
>>664062 I believe that if you don't like an org's line, then it's okay to just… not join. Or do something else. Or float around and try out different things. I've seen people get personally wrecked by bad orgs with toxic internal cultures. I think worse than joining a party that would tail at best is winding up in Jonestown.
Personally, I'm feeling like Vijay Prashad here. He's responding to a question from a girl who said she was getting burnt out. But I liked his response which is that orgs or groups (or at least healthy ones) can foster a mentality that one isn't indispensable, because people on the left can develop a messiah complex and they feel bad about themselves when they aren't saving the world. But it's not like you're so individually important.
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 16:31:08 No. 664160
>>664143 This is good advice. A well structured org. has policies and procedures for replacing personnel, especially on a temporary basis.
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 16:41:28 No. 664174
>>664113 >namely that of opportunity cost and path with fastest results Except for all the revolutions in the third world what real results have we seen? Most of the time it seems such movements become drag on for decades before fizzling out (like the FARC, or Tamil Tigers), or else they become locked in a stalemate like the NPA, Naxals, Zapatistas, etc. If they succeed in taking power at all (which rarely happens without aid from other state actors) they tend to become highly isolated and impotent like Cuba and the DPRK, or else begin to integrate themselves into the capitalist order like Vietnam and China. This is assuming they don't just get destroyed by imperialism. Not only this, but your own reasoning is self-defeating in a way, since if only insignificant numbers of people in the first world can be brought to an anti-capitalist position, then it also follows that only an insignificant number could be brought to third worldism, and thus their impact on the actual outcome of these struggles will in turn be insignificant, or at least far from decisive. Moreover the issue of concessions/social democracy and their neutralizing effect on class struggle persists despite communist participation in these movements. Lenin himself acknowledges that trade union consciousness and organization emerges spontaneously from the working class. Therefore in isolating ourselves from the struggles of the first world proletariat we are not somehow accelerating the contradictions by preventing the granting of concessions. Such concessions, where feasible, will be granted with or without our participation, because trade unionists and social democrats will struggle for them on their own. The only effect of our abstention then is to forgo any influence the communists could have on shaping these struggles, radicalizing people, establishing a presence in working class institutions, building an independent base for our movement, developing our own organizational capacities, etc. Obviously I'm not about to go out of my way to bash TWists irl, but I don't buy your position at all.
>And of course one engages with third worlders Did they tell you to neglect class struggle in your own country?
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 16:43:17 No. 664177
>>664143 yeah, that's why im just reading marx and vibing
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 17:12:54 No. 664199
>>664174 The reasoning isn't self defeating at all. All socialist struggle presents a prisoner's dilemma / free rider problem at the individual level, whether in the first world or the third world:
One's individual contributions are always marginal everywhere. The strategy of third worldism is merely one that attempts to make better use of meager resources.
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All actual revolutions that have historically occurred have been in the periphery and poorer regions (Russia, China being the biggest).
None have occurred in the imperial core to date, and there are clear material reasons for this (even the immense destruction of WWII only got communist some 25% of the vote).
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On the consession struggle, you are correct to point out these happen independently of communist agitation.
The third worldist strategy thus views as significant participation as potentially quite wasteful.
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As for neglecting class struggle in my country, nobody needed to tell me anything. The fact of the matter is, there aren't any significant organizations here. At best there is collection of a few individuals here and there who sympathise.
Being determined my consciousness.
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Of course you won't buy the twdist strategy you won't even give it a charitable consideration and feel compelled to attack it. I even understand the emotional drive behind it as I have explained. I'll even go further.
Recall that the first post I made was merely asking if people had some experience with third worldist praxis. I didn't attack anyone in the thread for participating in the cpusa, dsa, etc*. But instead of just ignoring it you responded aggressively.
This compulsion shows an additional non-rational commitment against third worldism (because if it were merely a commitment to fwdism, you could simply say that you feel there is significant rev. potential in your area and leave it at that).
*In fact it may be dialectically necessary for people to do so from third worldist view, as only with repeated failure on an intimate individual level will at some people consider twdist strategy.
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 19:13:24 No. 664295
>>664199 >None have occurred in the imperial core to date, and there are clear material reasons for this Using that reasoning we could say that none have occurred at all without collapsing, receding back to capitalism, or becoming tiny and irrelevant, and so we should give up altogether. Basing our ideas on what is possible entirely on what has happened so far necessarily leads to a lack of innovative and original thinking. If we accept the premise that capitalism cannot continue indefinitely, that the tendency of the rate of profit to fall is inescapable in the long term, then it follows that we need to do everything possible to speed up this process, and accelerate the antagonism between labour and capital. Third world revolutions help this process yes, but so does the expansion of worker power in the first world. The difference is that if we focus only on the latter, we do nothing to expand the reach of our own movement at home, and nothing to influence the character of the worker institutions that emerge from this process. That in turn also limits our ability to effectively aid the third world, since if workers know and respect us they are more likely to answer a call to oppose imperialism. This is why actual third world revolutionaries reject third worldism, they recognize that struggle must he waged on all fronts. Class struggle in the first and third world should not be regarded as separate entities, but as two parts of a cohesive system. To attack capital in one also means to attack it in the other.
>I even understand the emotional drive behind it as I have explained. Sitting around and playing psychologist when it comes to this stuff is largely pointless. You accuse me of holding positions based on irrationality and an emotional desire to help my community. I could just as easily accuse you of being in the grip of emotional, irrational, pessimism. Neither accusation can be proven and is just a lazy attempt to discredit the other person instead of engaging with their arguments.
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 19:34:08 No. 664326
>>664295 I didn't accuse you of being irrational. I said you had non-rational commitments. Reread the post.
Irrational means against reason. Non-rational includes things outside the domain of rationality.
For example emotions, animal behaviour, etc.
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I did engage with your arguments, one at a time. Many of them I showed to be strawmen.
For example: The accusation of defeatism.
Another example: The accusation that twdism say there is no first world proletariat.
—
Finally, the problem with your analogy is that we aren't discussing the long term viability of socialism* we are discussing the extent evidence for fwdism and twdusm.
* You can always refer to the problem of induction and say have no guarantee that the future will ressemble the past.
To use this as basis to dismiss current evidence problematic. At the very least to have to make a good argument for why things might change.
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Now let me finally repeat this to you: Struggle locally in the first world has not only few results generally at advancing socialism, but my individual case has been a total waste of time.
Every person has limited of resources. Look at other posts in the fucking thread. Until things radically deteriorate, the most you will do is run a reading group that holds meetings and rallies at best. And that's fucking fine.
If twdist strategy is wrong, practice will demonstrate it to be so. If a revolution happens in the fw I will be ecstatic. So far the evidence is not your side however. So a different strategy is not unwarranted.
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 19:49:49 No. 664334
>>664326 >If twdist strategy is wrong, practice will demonstrate it to be so. To date it already has been demonstrated as wrong, that's kind of my point. Practice has thus far shown every attempt to result in failure. Even successful third world revolutions have universally resulted in failure, reversion, or isolationism. In some cases, like China, they have even resulted in phenomena which counteracted the fall in the rate of profit and aided imperialism. The opening up of Chinese labour markets for example.
>At the very least to have to make a good argument for why things might change. If the rate of profit really does fall inescapably, then it follows that they must change, since compromises are ultimately unsustainable. Evidence for this can be seen in the decline of the middle class and the early stages of the re-emergence of class struggle. The question then becomes what we can do to ensure we are in the strongest possible position when these changes reach a critical point, and also how we can accelerate them.
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 20:13:05 No. 664366
>>664334 By comparison, first world attempts at revolution never got off the ground, and communist in those countries have disintegrated into idpollers, larpers, socdems, etc.
So by the same criterion you fail harder (Hell I'll take a DPRK like remnant over strictly nothing any day)
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Again I am well aware of the basic difference in strategy. Twdist view is that focusing primarily on aiding the third world is the greatest accelerator.
What you claim is yours is to balance support.
Again, all I am asking is not be attacked and accused what appears to become kind of sabotage simply because one us allocating time & resources a little differently.
Like what difference does it make to you that one spends an hour talking to a tw com instead of fw com and giving couple bucks to them? How many fwcoms even contribute more than token dues (if that) to fw orgs?
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 20:25:28 No. 664378
>>664366 >Like what difference does it make to you Chill m8 I just like debating theory on leftypol, it's not like I go around banging drums and denouncing the evils of third worldists.
Anonymous 2021-12-28 (Tue) 20:45:21 No. 664411
>>664378 Then why did you feel compelled to respond at all to the first post? Its not like it was an invitation to debate.
I mean I responded because it was attacked with many a strawman and other accusations.
Perhaps it is the degenerate culture of imageboards that tend to towards shit disturbance…
But anyhow, by all means continue with whatever fw activities you do. Just leave us alone.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 17:28:06 No. 665820
>>664313 That's one of the reasons people under unionized jobs reached the lowest valley last decade. Few want to be in a union because they pacted with the ruling class.
What people could try is to replace the union, organizing, and shit, but then again, the morons are indoctrinated against your own interests and will accuse you of doing the right things as if these were bad things.
Covert action, training in theory explaining how this emerged (unions alone in capitalist society becomes part of the capitalist system), anonymous pamphlets to create class awareness, might be the right strategy if one plans to stay there for years.
>>664556 Didn't he die?
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 18:39:58 No. 665887
>>663244 I know a lot of people here like to shit on the founding fathers, but tbf to them in early America class divides only existed in the south, in the north they system of yemon farmers lead to thier being only one economic class, and in the south at the time of the construction was written slavery was projected by most people to die out. In such an environment abolishing political parties makes sence. And under a future claseless society an absence of parties would be a good thing. What the founding fathers didn’t know, is that Slavery would expand, not due off. And that industrialization was not only inevitable but would create new class divideds. A no party state and one party state are functionally the same. Political parties exist to represent different class interests.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 18:47:21 No. 665897
>be me >college student at University of Vermont >go to BDS March in town >thier ends up being a clash between pro-BDS and zionists >some of the zionists start acting autistic >ask them to calm down >they start debating thier points with the BDS crowd >after hearing the back and forth I realize that I’m the only non-Jew on either side
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 19:17:33 No. 665930
>>665820 >That's one of the reasons people under unionized jobs reached the lowest valley last decade. Few want to be in a union because they pacted with the ruling class. if that was the reason they would have collapsed a long time ago. although i think a lot of unionized workers during the 2008 recession found that their unions wouldn't do anything meaningful to save them since they had allied with the ruling class and their bailout schemes
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 19:21:30 No. 665934
>>665930 these workers who had enjoyed union membership up until that point probably went on to vote for trump though, and they're not really proletariat in any useful sense anyways
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 19:57:06 No. 665966
>>665934 >these workers who had enjoyed union membership up until that point probably went on to vote for trump though Liberal detected.
>they're not really proletariat in any useful sense anyways They objectively are proletatians.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 20:08:59 No. 665975
>>665930 Also a lot of the unionized factories just closed and never reopened
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 20:19:29 No. 665987
>>665832 >like trade unionism with american characteristics to me Nah, sounds like co-opted unions to anyone with enough functioning braincells.
A kind reminder that anything under a capitalist state runs through the capital, even unions.
>>665934 https://digitalcommons.csbsju.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1050&context=honors_thesis Don't want to point out you are speaking out your ass, but yeah, you are speaking out of your ass.
>inb4 muh trump won He didn't win the vote count, only the electoral college which is a facade of "democracy".
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 00:13:50 No. 666214
>>666045 I never implied "anything". Nor I did an absolute statement.
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 03:40:51 No. 666413
>>663821 I can find like 5 threads on "anyone got resources for organizing" but none that seem to address my question. Can you give a link? ( like >>>/edu/### )
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 04:04:02 No. 666423
>>666384 I mean, NTA but I'm surprised that many jews would be BDS, simply because most I've met and talked to were pro-Israel because it's a safe space (sample size of 3, so yeah).
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 04:33:54 No. 666443
>>666423 If anything I think it is the exact opposite since only Jews will care so much about Israel and Palestine due to proximity to it that they will be willing to outside to protest for and against it.
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 07:19:28 No. 666558
>>666443 Makes sense. People I've run across in the Palestinian cause were disproportionately Jewish compared to other orgs I've been around. The only person I've met who was actually beaten up by Israeli cops for protesting that stuff was Jewish.
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