Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:06:37 No. 665630 [Last 50 Posts]
Both failed ML States and horrid capitalist States are clearly not viable solutions for species survival. If you don't understand this, then you are a conservative and you should study some anthropology - nation states are not the overwhelming hegemonic norm for most of human history.>Anarchists, including this writer, have used the word State, and still do, to mean the sum total of the political, legislative, judiciary, military and financial institutions through which the management of their own affairs, the control over their personal behaviour, the responsibility for their personal safety, are taken away from the people and entrusted to others who, by usurpation or delegation, are vested with the powers to make the laws for everything and everybody, and to oblige the people to observe them, if need be, by the use of collective force.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:08:21 No. 665632
Anarchism has had great impact on history and reality. If anyone denies this, they may want to read about Spanish Revolution, Rojava, Zapatistas, dual power and anarchist social insertionist tendencies for example of anarchist/libertarian adjacent struggle
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:09:24 No. 665635
>species survival
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:09:40 No. 665636
Anon, everything will fail. Your anarchist wet dream isn't perfect either. Humans can't understand each other. Humans are vile animals fueled by hatred.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:11:29 No. 665640
>Both failed ML States and horrid capitalist States are clearly not viable solutions for species survival. If you don't understand this, then you are a conservative … nation states are not the overwhelming hegemonic norm for most of human history.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:11:51 No. 665641
>>665632 All I know is that anarchists are weak against externally threats. You need centralization, hierarchy and state power to combat external/internal capitalist threats. Anarchism is only possible when all humans just agree with each other about everything.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:13:57 No. 665645
>>665640 anarcho-national socialism
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:14:24 No. 665647
>>665640 >Huh? Isn't that a reactionary argument? How? Explain your logic.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:15:55 No. 665649
How build sewerage system?
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:16:17 No. 665650
>>665647 You're basically making an argument from tradition/appeal to nature, that because nation states aren't the norm in human history, they are bad and unnatural. The real issue isn't what the "norm" in human history is, the issue is what's possible within the confines and trends if the prevailing material conditions.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:16:19 No. 665651
>>665647 You need a state to support features of modern civilization. Are you anprim or what?
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:16:41 No. 665652
>>665640 No, the goal of communists is not to uphold the nation-state system
>>665630 Technically the Leninist plan was more or less world revolution, that plan fell apart when the western commies got their shit pushed in
And hell, they still tried, they supported revolutions in the colonized world for the entire Post-War Era, problem is that America was a far more formidable enemy than Nazi Germany and of course the ML states themselves did not divorce from national chauvinism and turned on each other because of it
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:17:32 No. 665653
>>665651 >You need a state Again, Spanish Revolution, Rojava, Zapatistas, dual power and anarchist social insertionist tendencies for example of anarchist/libertarian adjacent struggle
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:17:40 No. 665655
>>665651 No you don’t, are you a liberal or something?
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:17:40 No. 665656
>>665649 Who will voluntarily choose to become a janitor in an anarchist society? All societies require coercion to get shit done. Anarchists are utopian retards with their heads in clouds.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:18:32 No. 665657
>>665653 Why did you name movements that are either extremely limited or were defeated outright?
I don’t know how the fuck anarchists think the Spanish Civil War is a response to being told anarchism will always be defeated
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:19:00 No. 665659
>>665653 All them functioned with a fascist state and they failed too.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:30:24 No. 665671
>>665655 Are you an idealist or something?
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:33:17 No. 665673
>>665632 Neither Rojava nor neo-Zapitastas are anarchists
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:34:29 No. 665674
>>665671 Genuinely, are you a liberal, yes or no?
Do you even know what communism is?
….Are you one of those “MLs” that thinks communism is when the state does things?
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:35:01 No. 665676
>>665673 They aren't MLs either.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:35:57 No. 665677
>>665674 I know the end goal is to get rid of the state but you don't recommend that as a strategy.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:36:15 No. 665678
>>665653 The only ones still standing are a gas station (Rojava) and a failed confederation incapable even of taking over just Chiapas in 25 years.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:39:16 No. 665682
>>665678 Even socdems in LatAm have had no success lately, with Venezuela and Bolivia quite possibly having become actual worker/peasant states through reform. The only reason why the Zapatistas are still around is because they are too insignificant to be considered a threat. The only reason why Rojava is still there is because of their alliances with other state actors (first the US, then Damascus). I wish them all the best but these are just the facts.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:39:49 No. 665683
>>665682 *more success lately
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:40:38 No. 665686
>>665674 You have to deal with the state for a long time. Marx predicts that it will become redundant and useless at some point but honestly no one knows if that will even occur.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:42:16 No. 665688
>>665682 Bolivia just started mass producing portable powerbanks out of state owned lithium (which btw are availble for international shipping lol).
This is just one example out of tens I could have made of State driven industrialization there.
Just whatever MAS is doing is bigger than EZLN and Rojava combined.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:43:18 No. 665690
The only viable solution for species survival is a centralized one world state. Ironically, the rightoid NWO Alex Jones schizos were right about what should be the overarching goal of anybody who wants to preserve humanity, let alone civilization. We can worry about the dangers of such a system after it has stabilized humanity or at least has enacted a plan for sending the masses to space or some shit.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:45:11 No. 665692
>>665690 Yeah one world state and then we need to actively purge differences between groups of people. Like establishing common languages and gradually stopping people from using their local languages.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:46:41 No. 665694
>>665690 (me)
Furthermore, consolidation is already the current trend. We have a choice between consolidation based on solidarity and shared goals of prosperity, or it will continue on the neoliberal trend where humanity is united simply because we all are atomized retards on UBI stuck in the Metaverse in a "shared" culture.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:47:35 No. 665696
>>665692 Negatory, that is nation building. You don't necessarily need a nation to have a centralized state, as most of human history has proven.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:49:54 No. 665699
>>665696 People will then begin to fight based on arbitrary differences. Erasing differences is going against any project of nation building that can happen within this one global state.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:51:35 No. 665702
>>665699 People who are secure and prosperous don't start fighting each other for no reason.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:51:49 No. 665703
>>665636 Dialectics is what makes things ephemeral not some fee fees of a retard
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:53:44 No. 665704
>>665702 People fight for any arbitrary reason under any circumstance. You should maybe consider reading at least recent history. It's always people who are secure and prosperous that come up with weird philosophical and ideological bullshit to hate on others.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:54:06 No. 665707
>>665686 So you're saying that you, as a "Marxist", do not think communism is actually possible? Which class will the state be upholding after the abolition of capitalism? A clique of bureaucrats? Goddamned aliens?
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:54:32 No. 665708
>>665703 Why marx failed to predict nazis then
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:56:33 No. 665710
>>665706 >In the future everyone will be of mixed race and will converge towards a single human cultural identity without the need for the State to enforce this. I don't think that can happen spontaneously. You have to force it to happen through the state.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:58:31 No. 665712
>>665707 >Which class will the state be upholding after the abolition of capitalism? DotP state supports proles. What is your issue here?
Bureaucracy is a necessary ""evil"". Large scale civilization need them to effectively manage resources and labor. Otherwise you'll have to rely on markets.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 15:58:50 No. 665713
>>665707 >So you're saying that you, as a "Marxist", do not think communism is actually possible Communism isn't an end goal, it's a real continuous movement
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:03:07 No. 665715
>>665704 >People fight for any arbitrary reason under any circumstance. Maybe you should consider analyzing history and thinking about why things happen. I guarantee you that there is no significant conflict where the historical consensus about its cause is "lol no reason."
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:05:16 No. 665717
>>665715 >lol no reason Strawman. My point is people take advantage of arbitrary differences between groups of people for whatever reason. This is why every ethnic/national/religious/linguistic/caste difference should be actively eliminated.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:06:59 No. 665718
>>665717 >My point is people take advantage of arbitrary differences between groups of people for whatever reason So you're saying that in a world that has eliminated scarcity, people would kill each other for no reason? People can only take advantage of these differences when there are actual antagonisms between them, antagonisms usually linked to material factors like competition over resources.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:09:06 No. 665719
>>665712 >DotP state supports proles. What is your issue here? That a bullshit argument like this falls apart when capitalism ends its historical epoch and a socialist state, i.e. tool of class dictatorship by the workers, loses its fundamental reason for existing
>Bureaucracy is a necessary ""evil"". Large scale civilization need them to effectively manage resources and labor. I don't think you even get my point
>>665713 Statements aren't always an argument, sometimes they're deployed to divert a discussion from what is being asked
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:10:13 No. 665720
>>665718 >So you're saying that in a world that has eliminated scarcity, people would kill each other for no reason Why are you assuming a peak stage of communism where all issues are already solved? My point is to reach that point you need to eliminate differences. We're talking about strategy here, not imaging some utopian future.
Sage !61KGLATVW. 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:10:20 No. 665721
1) Rojava isn't anarchist.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:13:12 No. 665725
>>665719 >That a bullshit argument like this falls apart when capitalism ends its historical epoch and a socialist state, i.e. tool of class dictatorship by the workers, loses its fundamental reason for existing It's a fucking process. If a state really become redundant then we'll shed it off. Communism isn't when you take over the state. It's a process towards an end goal that is communism.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:14:20 No. 665727
>>665720 >My point is to reach that point you need to eliminate differences. No you have to eliminate antagonisms. The key factor which determines whether or not two peoples have peaceful or violent interactions is whether or not their interests conflict. Anglos and the French fought each other constantly for centuries, but now they are staunch allies. Clearly what changed was how their interests aligned, not their ethnicities.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:15:47 No. 665729
>>665632 >for example You can't say "for example" after an exhaustive list (of non-accomplishments).
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:19:43 No. 665735
>>665727 >The key factor which determines whether or not two peoples have peaceful or violent interactions is whether or not their interests conflict. That's still not a solution. A lot of times interests may not align. We don't live in a perfect world. What about such cases? These arbitrary differences will spontaneously compel people to scapegoat some other group.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:25:06 No. 665742
>>665736 Mao is a retard who fucked up a lot. I don't care what he has a to say.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:26:44 No. 665745
>>665742 He successfully established a stable government ruling over a multiplicity of different ethnicities, one which is still growing strong today. Maybe he was onto something on this particular issue. The point is that unlike class contradictions, contradictions between ethnicities are not inherently antagonistic, and can be resolved peacefully and to mutual benefit.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:30:06 No. 665748
>>665745 >We can solve X without chimping out Not really. Even in leftoid circles is the default position to X deserves the wall
Any previous occurrences in history are going to always be the exception than any applicable setting
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:31:45 No. 665751
>>665745 I don't want to hear anything about peace from fucking mao who did bullshit like cultural revolution
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:34:35 No. 665755
>>665748 >Even in leftoid circles is the default position to X deserves the wall Wtf does that even mean?
>>665751 The cultural revolution (or at least something like it) was necessary wtf are you talking about. It was literally an effort to reign in the bureaucracy and bring it back under control of the people.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:35:45 No. 665758
>>665755 That the default conflict solution will always be chimp out, by default. That is safe to assume that.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:36:57 No. 665762
>>665755 >The cultural revolution (or at least something like it) was necessary wtf are you talking about. It was literally an effort to reign in the bureaucracy and bring it back under control of the people. The point is why would you learn about muh peaceful resolution bullshit from him when he himself doesn't care about that shit
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:37:23 No. 665763
>>665745 That was all Zhou Enlai. Mao was only good in wartime.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:37:59 No. 665764
>>665758 >That the default conflict solution will always be chimp out, by default. That is safe to assume that. It isn't safe to assume that at all. The majority of instances of international and inter-ethnic disputes don't result in mass violence, especially in the modern era.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:38:13 No. 665765
>>665755 > It was literally an effort to reign in the bureaucracy and bring it back under control of the people. Isn’t this iffy as all fuck when its lead by the leader of said Party and country and effectively the head of the bureaucracy in a certain sense? I mean….isn’t it a bit naive to just consciously overlook that detail?
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:38:15 No. 665766
>>665755 yeah it was necessary, for negotiating with the west after the sino-soviet split
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:42:37 No. 665768
>>665762 >The point is why would you learn about muh peaceful resolution bullshit from him when he himself doesn't care about that shit If you had read him you would know why that statement is silly. Mao argued that there are differences between antagonistic and non-antagonistic contradictions. Some contradictions inherently fell into one or the other category, others were highly malleable, etc. It's not an issue of Mao "caring about peace", but one of which contradictions were most prevalent, which were antagonistic, which ones needed to be intensified and which ones needed to be de-escalated. He reasoned that the conflict between China's ethnicities could and must be resolved peacefully, while the conflict between the people and bureaucrats/capitalist roaders may need to be resolved with force.
>>665765 Mao wasn't really in charge of much at the time, the GCPR was essentially an attempt for his faction to retake control of the party by appealing to his popularity with the masses.
>>665766 One does not follow from the other.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:43:46 No. 665771
>>665769 Do you think every international dispute in the Middle East results in war?
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:47:19 No. 665774
>>665768 > Mao wasn't really in charge of much at the time, the GCPR was essentially an attempt for his faction to retake control of the party by appealing to his popularity with the masses. At least you aren’t completely naive
Now why do you see this as a necessary and more importantly
revolutionary action, rather than a remarkably cynical power play even from your own description of it? To me this doesn’t sound much different from the power plays liberals did with each other in their own revolutions.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:47:19 No. 665775
>>665771 Pushing the goalposts lmao
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:54:44 No. 665777
>>665764 They resulted in unprecedented mass violence on in modern era.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:58:39 No. 665780
>>665774 >Now why do you see this as a necessary and more importantly revolutionary action, rather than a remarkably cynical power play even from your own description of it? Because Mao and his faction were a tiny clique, they could only exercise power at the head of a worker and peasant movement, and as a result they necessarily acted as a representative of those interests, at least to an extent. Imo anarchists often seriously underestimate the reciprocal nature of power.
>>665777 Yeah well industrialized warfare will do that. It doesn't mean that disputes aren't resolved peacefully most of the time. Generally books and movies aren't made about international conflicts which were resolved peacefully, without incident, and to everybody's satisfaction.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 16:59:27 No. 665781
>>665780 Know what Sabocat
I respect you
You never fail in your responses
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 17:00:28 No. 665782
>>665781 >You never fail in your responses Do you mean that they're good or that I just never shut up? Because I'm well aware that the latter is true.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 17:01:13 No. 665783
>>665780 >Generally books and movies aren't made about international conflicts which were resolved peacefully, without incident, and to everybody's satisfaction. What's your point? You're admitting there's a lot of risk and uncertainty associated with allowing ethnic differences to persist. So the easy way out to eliminate them as much as possible.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 17:01:31 No. 665784
>>665782 By the way I concede all of my points in all of my posts
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 17:01:33 No. 665785
>>665782 They can at least usually respond with a reasonable or seemingly researched argument, which is honestly more than you could say for much of leftypol these days
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 17:02:31 No. 665786
>>665782 >>665785 Oops meant (you)
>>665784 No I don’t
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 17:12:35 No. 665797
>>665783 Ethnic differences are always going to persist Anon. Cultures are extremely fluid, constantly changing as they splinter, merge, and splinter again. Trying to ossify them into a unified cultural identity is like herding cats, and will probably create a lot more ethnic tension before it bears any positive results. Generally different nationalities don't take kindly to the perception that they're being erased. That's not even getting into the massive ethical difficulties, especially considering the grim history of forced assimilation of some ethnicities by others. Try telling some Native Americans that you want to subsume their ethnicity into that of the majority. I'm sure you'd understand why they wouldn't be on board.
>>665785 Thanks Anon, just trying my best.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 17:13:37 No. 665798
>>665785 Leftypol… le bad!
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 17:25:27 No. 665817
>>665786 Make up your mind
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 17:41:35 No. 665830
>>665797 >Ethnic differences are always going to persist That doesn't mean you can't reduce extremely conspicuous ethnic markets starting from language
>Generally different nationalities don't take kindly to the perception that they're being erased. You don't have to force it down their throat at once. There are a lot of indirect ways you can achieve this which are already tried and tested in modern multi-ethnic states like India, Philippines etc.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 18:22:26 No. 665870
>Yet another thread of the same 2 or 3 flagfags arguing with each other
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 18:43:23 No. 665894
>>665650 >You're basically making an argument from tradition/appeal to nature, that because nation states aren't the norm in human history, they are bad and unnatural. The real issue isn't what the "norm" in human history is, the issue is what's possible within the confines and trends if the prevailing material conditions. >>665657 >Why did you name movements that are either extremely limited or were defeated outright? >I don’t know how the fuck anarchists think the Spanish Civil War is a response to being told anarchism will always be defeated >>665657 >Why did you name movements that are either extremely limited or were defeated outright? >I don’t know how the fuck anarchists think the Spanish Civil War is a response to being told anarchism will always be defeated You sound like a condescending western ML who knows little to nothing about struggle, both in your own world (whatever first world hell that is), nor in Rojava or Chiapas. Rojava was definitely influenced by ML, and later anarchism; through the works of Bookchin, specifically his iteration of communalism. Chiapas is indigenous struggle, though there is elements of libertarian socialism mixed in. But you’re probably too arrrogant and insipid to read or would even try to understand libertarian socialist arguments against capitalism and the State (much less arguments against all forms of hierarchy and domination). We don’t want to trade one set of tyrannical bosses for another set, you all just a bunch of anti-empirical power hungry fools who can’t organize anything.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 18:47:14 No. 665896
>>665894 Interesting tactic you used to side step what I and the other anon said, brilliant my nigha
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 18:48:03 No. 665900
>>665650 >>665657 >>665658 >>665896 Have you studied the CNT-FAI in any meaningful way? How about any anthropology? Non-industrial indigenous societies ? Do you understand that both the fascists and Statist, Stalinist hacks fought against the anarchists in Spain? The State can not be used as a means to liberate the working class - any reactionary ideology that promotes such nonsense are either entirely naive, or power hungry folks hell bent on subordinating the working class to a new class of bureaucrats. Do you do anything to organize your community or workplace or just banter on like a cocky ML online ?
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 18:50:12 No. 665903
>>665894 >Rojava was definitely influenced by ML, and later anarchism; through the works of Bookchin, specifically his iteration of communalism. Chiapas is indigenous struggle, though there is elements of libertarian socialism mixed in. What does that have to do with anything I said about them? I'm just pointing out that these experiments, as admirable as they may be in terms of their goals, are objectively weak, and pose no threat to capitalism as a world system. They only exist because they are either aligned with or overlooked by state actors. They also effectively have state apparatuses themselves, iirc neither even identifies as anarchist.
>But you’re probably too arrrogant and insipid to read or would even try to understand libertarian socialist arguments against capitalism and the State Actually I used to be an anarchist, and it was a position that I held mainly due to misconceptions about the actual history of AES, the nature of the state and power as institutions, and the dialectical motion of history.
>We don’t want to trade one set of tyrannical bosses for another set Do you really think that the Tsar and Soviet leaders exercised power in the same way, with the same goals and intentions, and with the same results? You might as well suggest that the Nazis and those who resisted them were the same because they both used guns. State power is a tool, and like a rifle what matters most is how it's used, by whom, against whom, and for what purpose.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 18:52:16 No. 665904
>>665900 > Have you studied the CNT-FAI in any meaningful way? No
> How about any anthropology? Yes
> Non-industrial indigenous societies ? Yes, I believe in revolution, not regression
> Do you understand that both the fascists and Statist, Stalinist hacks fought against the anarchists in Spain? Do you understand that the USSR was the greatest material supporters of the Republican side and their odds of victory were always incredibly slim?
> The State can not be used as a means to liberate the working class - any reactionary ideology that promotes such nonsense are either entirely naive, or power hungry folks hell bent on subordinating the working class to a new class of bureaucrats And yet statist formations have gone further than attempts at anarchism have
Can you tell me a single meaningful revolutionary anarchist project with a chance at winning that didn’t arise in a civil war or a failed state?
> Do you do anything to organize your community or workplace or just banter on like a cocky ML online ? Tried organizing tenants in my old neighborhood back before the pandemic started
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 18:52:45 No. 665906
>>665900 >>How about any anthropology? Non-industrial indigenous societies ? Non-state familial and clan structures are all well and good for non-industrial indigenous societies. But we aren't trying to transform those types of societies are we? We are trying to transform highly centralized, urbanized, industrialized nation states, and will inevitably need to defend against other such states. The mere fact that humans can exist in stateless societies doesn't mean that such an existence is viable under current conditions.
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 18:54:07 No. 665907
>>665906 But dude
Moral purity
Idk
Anonymous 2021-12-29 (Wed) 20:39:55 No. 666012
Go to bed little baby anarkiddie, you have school tomorrow! If you’re good your mommy will pack you chicken tendies!
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 04:12:11 No. 666430
>>666416 More like anarchists just keep making states and then writing entire novels trying to convince us that they're something else.
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 07:47:39 No. 666569
The op is wrong in the sense that we don't need a state and the ml are wrong in the sense that the Soviet union was far from perfect.
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 10:47:31 No. 666660
>not viable I mean, China, Vietnam, Cuba etc is still around
>species survival the species will survive just fine. humans are smart. the problem is the amount of suffering in the great dying to come, if we let capitalism have its way with things
tell me OP, how do you propose we deal with the 400 Gton of excess CO2 in the atmosphere? what is the anarchist solution for sequestration? can anarchism and planning be combined? honestly that would be pretty cool, but so far whenever I mention planning to anarchists they tend to go "but that's stalinism!"
>>666569 >ml are wrong in the sense that the Soviet union was far from perfect no ML I know pretends the USSR was perfect
>I think cockshott is mostly right but like anarchists he advocates for militias for whatever reason where? I haven't seen anything like this in paul's writings
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 11:38:06 No. 666706
>>665632 >anarchist social insertionist I googled this and your post was unironically one of the top results. Please elaborate what this is
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 11:41:29 No. 666707
I will support both anarchists and ML state socialists. Both are utopian compared to my current state. You can't stop me.
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 11:42:16 No. 666708
>>666706 We're a part of history now comrade. Posting in historical thread.
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 11:55:22 No. 666716
>>665630 >nation states are not the overwhelming hegemonic norm for most of human history. No, they are products of our current societal development.
>abolish this abolish that, we communists can just change the world according to our whims! Anarchists are actual children.
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 11:57:57 No. 666718
It used to make sense to tolerate Leninist faggotry when Soviet Union was still around. It was realpolitiks. No reason for that now other than nostalgia over failed attempts at communism.
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 12:00:22 No. 666720
>>666660 >the species will survive just fine I don't see any reason to believe this other than humans' own lack of perception and myopia
Consider this
Homo Sapiens is a very young species
Every other species of human has gone extinct
And we have an extremely high caloric demand
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 13:25:09 No. 666777
>>666720 >Every other species of human has gone extinct guess why that is :^)
what we're likely to see is a Devonian climate. most CO2 being released would have been in the atmosphere at some point. contrary to what some people think, Earth will not turn into Venus. what we're likely to see instead is people moving toward polar regions. farming will have a massive upswing there. the entire Mediterranean region will become depopulated. there will be internal borders in the EU. a bronze age collapse situation is likely, the billions of climate migrants becoming the largest land army in history, similar to the Sea Peoples
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 17:53:58 No. 667044
Lmao
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 17:59:57 No. 667050
>>665630 I don’t want to die of dysentery
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 18:03:21 No. 667054
>>666777 > guess why that is :^) Scientists don’t exactly know, muh genocide hypothesis is not widely accepted
Part of the reason is likely because humans have a massive calorie demand
> what we're likely to see is a Devonian climate. most CO2 being released would have been in the atmosphere at some point The same could be said of the Permian extinction and associated climate change, what matters most has always been rate of change
> contrary to what some people think, Earth will not turn into Venus Lay people are morons, the actual threat is a replication of the Permian Extinction event and likely an unprecedented (that is, not before seen) extinction event related to rampant plastic pollution of the planet and in seemingly all animal life
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 18:05:41 No. 667057
>>667055 You don't know what anarchy is though.
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 18:06:17 No. 667058
>>667057 >You don't know what anarchy is though. Neither do you or any other anarchist for that matter.
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 18:12:41 No. 667061
how are you even planning to operate the huge capitalist firms we would inherent from the capitalist mode of production and organize them in a decentralized way? they are extremely dependent on other branches of the same enterprise, suppliers and distributors.
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 18:14:54 No. 667063
>>667058 it's not because you're retarded that everyone is
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 18:24:43 No. 667074
>Idealism and sectarianism : the thread
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 18:28:21 No. 667078
>>665630 >Both failed ML States and horrid capitalist States are clearly not viable solutions for species survival Are you actually serious? Socialism in the USSR and the PRC today are the highest stage of societal development ever achieved in human history. They have a worker state with a focus on socio-economic development in according with the needs of the people, which is guided by science.
The Communist movement found a feudal country on the same level as 1500 England, farming was done by hand and wooden tools in 1917, and when Stalin died 50 years later the USSR was the second biggest economy, with the highest literacy rate, educational levels, scientists, women emancipation etc.
Or just look at China today for god sake, they are a country with 1.2 billion people and could flick off the covid virus within 6 months, while 2 years later the West is on its knees succumbing to another variant.
You either have to be ignorant about history and reality or just delusional.
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 19:08:17 No. 667113
>>665630 > nation states are not the overwhelming hegemonic norm for most of human history. The soviet union and China weren't/aren't nation states.
>>665632 >Spanish Revolution, Died after a few years
>Rojava Exists by the grace of being usefull for NATO imperialism
>Zapatistas Cant even maintain power much
>dual power Not an anarchist exclusive concept. Every revolutionary force engaged in dual power.
>anarchist social insertionist Googling this term only yield one passing mention on anarchist wiki and this very thread
Opinion discarded
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 19:39:34 No. 667141
>>665653 >>665653 The Zapatistas are way too overrated and they've pussied out and continue to get fucked by the Mexican government. They should learn from the PDPR-EPR, a Mexican ML guerilla who were called more organized than the Zapatistas by the Mexican government. They were owning the Mexican military so hard that the Mexican government were pissing their pants and even the FBI got involved and had to surveillance them.
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 20:47:22 No. 667201
The state is no longer the appropriate unit of analysis for the study of global affairs. The rigid concept of static or semi-static states must make way for a more fluid and dynamical network theoretic in which the dominant forces of macroscopic sociopolitical organization are informational and capital networks that know no boundaries and often bypass national laws. This is information networks and capital flows as a "hyper-object" a super-positional nexus of data exchange traveling at the speed of light through fiber optic cables.
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 20:55:35 No. 667211
>>667201 Your post is very landian.
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 21:08:17 No. 667228
>>667054 >Permian extinction sure, but none of those species were sapient as far as we know
glory to the human race!
glory to the human race!
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 21:51:27 No. 667279
>>667228 None of those species had nuclear weapons and covered the Earth in nuclear power plants that they literally couldn’t let shutdown or else the environment would become flooded with radioactive materials, you’re right
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 22:16:35 No. 667307
>>667279 nuclear power plants can be shut down though….? do you think the engineers behind this stuff are gibbering morons compared to your superior intellect or something
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 22:20:23 No. 667311
>>667279 >implying there aren't people smart enough to build rad suits anon pls
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 22:24:22 No. 667314
>>667279 >Anprim is anti-nuclear power while screeching about the coming extinction of mankind due to climate change Can't make this shit up.
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 22:41:19 No. 667330
>>667314 it's almost like primitivism is reactionary or something
makes u think
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 22:42:35 No. 667331
>>667211 That occurred to me after I wrote it. Except I see now reason to use an obscurantist phrase like "capital is sentient" . I hate the way that guy writes.
Is it really necessary to spazz out like this to state your point? Hot air incarnate.
Also go away nazi flaggot.
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 22:43:01 No. 667333
>>667331 > I see now reason t *no reason
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 22:47:44 No. 667343
That said I sorta agree with the Landian take that we've stopped running the machine and the machine now runs us. Capital has been unleashed to such an unbridled extent from all these computational boosters and accelerants that it has essentially slipped beyond our grasp. Automated asset traders can sell off in a flash crash faster than any human reflex can respond, and much faster than it takes to understand. Nation states and their intelligence apparatuses are always a step behind. And they are just as nurtured, abused, and dependent on technocapital as any one of us.
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 22:58:01 No. 667357
>>667343 >we've stopped running the machine and the machine now runs us this is not a new take. Marx said this
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 23:46:05 No. 667411
>>667307 And if society collapsed who exactly will shut them down?
>>667314 I’m not “anti-nuclear” you stupid tankie
fuck , dumb fucking animal
I’m pointing out the countless reasons why humanity would be fucked if society collapsed in this century, I get tankies are the stupidest fucks imaginable that can’t account for anything that didn’t happen a century ago, but I’d think your minds complex enough to realize if society collapsed things like nuclear power plants could quite possibly meltdown
Jesus you stupid fucks genuinely don’t know
anything about the contemporary world, do you?
Anonymous 2021-12-30 (Thu) 23:47:24 No. 667412
>>667311 You need to know what radiation is to build a rad suit, and you need to know how it works as well, these things require modern science which requires a basic knowledge that could easily vanish if industrial society went down
Anonymous 2021-12-31 (Fri) 00:24:17 No. 667483
>>667412 this is like hundreds of years into the future. but even so this knowledge is in every basic physics textbook. this kind of knowledge isn't lost so easily
Anonymous 2021-12-31 (Fri) 00:28:04 No. 667488
>>667483 Climate change literally isn’t “hundreds of years into the future” what the fuck are you talking about, are you a time traveler from the 1970s?
Or do you mean nuclear reactor meltdown without engineers working on them?
And afaik rad suits need to be lead lined, no? Does the average physics textbook describe how to actually design a suit that keeps out radiation?
And again, we’re discussing societal collapse here and the implications of it, that is a collapsed supply chain, death of most engineers and scientists alongside everyone else, collapse in literacy for the proceeding generations; is this topic confusing to you?
Anonymous 2021-12-31 (Fri) 00:30:32 No. 667496
>>667488 what fucking timescale are you even on anon?
Anonymous 2021-12-31 (Fri) 00:37:24 No. 667518
>>667496 What fucking timescale are you on? Because the current one seems to be a 3-4C temperature shift by the end of this century, as corroborated by the conservative IPCC and UN, which is massive considering the effects just a fraction of a degree downwards had on crop yields for Europe in the late Middle Ages and Early Modern Era
Yes, climate change will also continue for centuries, but that isn’t proof that it’s a nothingburger in this century, if anything it’s a foundation for a decent argument that this can end up being humanity’s extinction event
And remember, before you say literally anything else in reply to this, I want you to remember; real life is not a fictional narrative that guarantees a happy ending, your wildest dreams, or the defeat of all bad things by “the good guys”, humans are just one species on one insignificant planet orbiting one insignificant star in one galaxy among trillions in a universe that’s likely infinite; before you begin a rant dripping in myopia and species-wide protagonist syndrome
Anonymous 2021-12-31 (Fri) 00:55:53 No. 667539
>>666416 >(I CAN'T READ) Brevity is the soul of wit.
Anonymous 2021-12-31 (Fri) 08:03:04 No. 667879
>>665630 Nation states are a recent phenomenon.
Yes uyghur, and they're here to stay. Population density, technology, production, these material advances don't mesh with your commune circlejerk.
Anonymous 2021-12-31 (Fri) 08:20:56 No. 667890
>>667518 I'm not saying it's a nothingburger, retard. I'm saying the species will be fine. do you think it's going be just society existing one day then collapsing the next day, at the same time everywhere on the planet? literally zero arable land?
as
>>667307 points out, nuclear power plants aren't designed by morons. you can shut them down. we're also likely to see electricity become a lot more expensive due to peak oil and peak coal. this means porky will want to keep the plants working as long as possible
it's of course
possible that the species will not be fine. in which case, who cares?
either way, there will be massive social unrest, especially during the coming famines. that is prime revolution material
Anonymous 2021-12-31 (Fri) 08:22:20 No. 667892
It's not only the fact that there ought to be national defense but the fact that the means of production, the factories and farms that is are huge behemonth complex things that require organization in order to function, all of this requires some sort of hierarchy. In the far future anarchism might be more viable if you could have done kind of nano assemblers, microscopic robots that assemble things at the microscopic level. But then we're venturing into startrek territory. That's just my opinion though.
Anonymous 2021-12-31 (Fri) 14:20:16 No. 668057
>>667357 >>667343 Lukacs also elaborated upon it at length. If you think Land is on to something you should just go read "History and Class Consciousness" for a Marxist, non-schizo explanation.
Anonymous 2021-12-31 (Fri) 14:34:27 No. 668068
>>667357 No, marx spoke of the estrangement which was fundamental to capital, this is not the same as conflating that estrangement with a self-animating process
Anonymous 2021-12-31 (Fri) 14:46:52 No. 668076
>>668068 does Marx not say somewhere in Capital that capital and its dance of commodities is like a beast larger than any of the participants? what we today call an emergent phenomenon, similar to how an anthill is more than any individual ant
Anonymous 2021-12-31 (Fri) 14:52:44 No. 668082
>>668068 He also talks about commodity fetishism as the seemingly autonomous motion of commodities, capital, etc. through the market, and how they confront the consumer as something independent of human actions and social relations. I think he's essentially expressing a rudimentary form of what Land was talking about. Like I said Lukacs expands on it considerably with his description of reification.
Anonymous 2022-01-01 (Sat) 00:17:45 No. 668630
>>665676 no one claimed that you fucking sperg
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