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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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File: 1640889017698.png (197.89 KB, 840x564, apu thinking.png)

 No.667081

I'm serious. Take Latin America as an example. The radical left-wing governments are either overthrown (Bolivia, Nicaragua) or heavily sanctioned (Cuba, Venezuela) by the US, while the right-wing governments (Chile under Pinochet, Peru under Fujimori) immiserate the working classes. But a more moderate, social democratic government, like Lula's in Brazil and now Boric's in Chile, can be mostly ignored by the US while still helping the country develop. Now, in mega-powerful countries like the USSR or China that can survive and thrive despite attacks from the US, full-on Marxism is clearly the way forward. But most countries aren't like that, so social democracy might actually be a superior option there.

 No.667083

Bolivia and Nicaragua literally weren’t overthrown dumbass, stfu. Either you’ve been literally living under a rock or this thread is made in bad faith.

 No.667086

>>667083
The Bolivian government was overthrown, it's just that popular support for Morales allowed MAS to retake power. And regarding Nicaragua, I was talking about in the 80s.

 No.667098

It depends on the country.
If Mexico or Brazil were to become communist they could spread across the whole continent and unify Latin America under one. Throw in a cultural revolution to whipe out everyone's gay culture and belief and make them conform.
Then and only then could Latin America be a powerhouse free of crime that could challenge other world supowers instead of the CIAs playground.
Much like mao is mostly remembered nowadays for unifying China.
Maybe.

 No.667105

I see your point but even without US coups local elites will still try to reverse every positive change as soon as they get the chance. This has already happened to a large extent in Brazil, it's just that some of the socdem measures are so popular even the neolibs are scared of touching them. That doesn't mean they're not reversing them, just that they have to be subtle and careful about it.

 No.668008

Lula made everyone mad by bowing to every single demands the national porkies threw at him. The only policies that got passed we’re extremely easy to reverse even in a single term.
Social democracy is met with a catch-22 in the third world. Either you cucked out and alienate your working class voters, or be steadfast and get “suicided” by the CIA in a military coup.

 No.668013

no

 No.668015

File: 1640954456376.jpg (251.51 KB, 1800x900, far-cry-3-6.jpg)


 No.668016

>maybe if we play nice porky will leave us be
He won’t. Many, many such cases

 No.668017

>>668016
Yes. He will only obey with a gun against his head.

 No.668019

>>667081
"American imperialism" in Latin America was a response to working-class militancy and revolutionary socialist (mostly Trotskyist) activity during the 20th century. If 'development' and harm reduction are more important then you must admit this activity was a mistake.

The answer is yes, if you're willing to accept developmentalist class collaboration and stop screeching about imperialism it is perfectly possible to have a reformist socdem nation in Latin America or Africa. Modern Uruguay is a good example of that.

 No.668036

>>667081
Unironically Dengism is to catch up with 1st world with productive forces.

 No.668041

No. They will get couped. The structure of bourgeois elections leads to neoliberalism.

 No.668045

>>667081
No, what is to say the plan to achieve marxism in the long term won't be deviated from?

 No.668046

>>668036
that is the excuse given
>>668041
yup

you may be left alone if you break from the socialist camp, so that the capitalists can 1.reward capitalist deviation 2.target hardliner socialists first.
Make no mistake once they are done with the socialists the social democrats are on the chopping block. You can appease the capitalists by sacrificing what power you have but you will suffer in the long run.

 No.668049

>>667081
>(Bolivia, Nicaragua)
>'radical left'
What the fuck. What level of burgerbrain is this

 No.668052

>>668017
Even still you have to pull the trigger.

>>668049
>Bolivia/ Nicaragua
>not radical left
You are the one with burger brains I’m afraid

 No.668055

>>668052
How the fuck are bolivia and nicaragua radical at all in any way? Is even slightly resisting US fuckery considered LE RADICAL LEFT nowadays?

 No.668058

>>668055
The Sandinistas are still lead by the man who conducted an armed revolution explicitly Marxist Leninist inspired, which delivered sweeping land reform, healthcare, education, to a backward colonised nation.

In order to fight this revolution they censored the press among other things.

The Sandinistas are a prime example of based tankies. Read a book.

The Movement Towards Socialism are an anti imperialist left nationalist party which you have to be affiliated to a trade union or other popular member organization to join.

Again, read, a fucking, book

 No.668060

>>668058
So how are they radical at all in any way whatsoever?

 No.668063

>>667081
Vuvuzela and Bolivia are basically social democracies except they are called far left because they are brown people instead of wh*te

 No.668065

>>668046
>that is the excuse given
And its becoming reality now that China is the largest economy when PPP is taken into consideration.

 No.668069

File: 1640961344849.jpg (21.45 KB, 500x222, 8f9.jpg)

No,
Social Democracy just kills any potential revolutionary movement and hands a country over to the bourgeois

 No.668070

>>668060
What about this isn’t radical ? Where on earth is more radical?

 No.668071

>>668070
Thank god for filters.

 No.668073

>The radical left-wing governments are either overthrown (Bolivia, Nicaragua)
Neither of those have been overthrown. If anything Bolivia is a shining example of how to build dual power in such a way as to make your government coup-proof.
>or heavily sanctioned (Cuba, Venezuela)
That's always going to happen, it's why internationalism is so important.
>But a more moderate, social democratic government, like Lula's in Brazil and now Boric's in Chile
Boric only just took power, and Lula was thrown in prison.

You are onto something though. The conditions of peripheral and semi-peripheral countries are such that the reformist path to socialism is generally far more viable, at least when combined with dual power as in Bolivia and Venezuela. Poorer, non-imperialist capitalist economies are inherently less capable of sustaining social democratic concessions than those of the core. Reforms are therefore likely to provoke a serious confrontation between labour and capital, whereas in the West they have thus far simply led to workers becoming complacent. Such a confrontation, if it ends in favour of the workers as it did in Bolivia and Venezuela, can effectively leave them in control of the state apparatus as a whole, and also provides a pretext to purge it of reactionary elements like Bolivia is doing.

 No.668074

>>668065
It would have happened either way as long as they resisted india tier imperialism and neoliberalism. They would have been stronger and more geopolitically dominant compared to the capitalist bloc today if they hadn't abandoned a planned economy

 No.668075

>>668058
>The Sandinistas are still lead by the man who conducted an armed revolution explicitly Marxist Leninist inspired, which delivered sweeping land reform, healthcare, education, to a backward colonised nation.
I thought it was the guy that betrayed the previous socialist leader and rolled back reforms no?

 No.668077

>>668074
Mfs seem to always forget that China demonstrated similar rates of growth under its planned system, though less consistently due to political unrest like the GPCR.

 No.668079

>>668077
it was growing faster under the planned system, gdp is not an accurate measurement of industrial capacity and is biased towards market economies

 No.668085

>>667081
For now the best strategy for Latin America is to put moderate Socdems in charge of the government and socialists in charge of State-security. Socialism in Latin America can only survive if it can defend it self against CIA operations. That makes it the primary contradiction for socialist, and it makes sense to run security for socdems in order to build up thatcapacity. For socdems it makes sense to give state security to socialists as insurance policy against a neo-liberal counter-revolution by local bourgeois factions. Social democracy is less efficient than full socialism at development but also less likely to get embargoed.

 No.668142

Democracies tend to be quite fragile in poorer countries, and fair better in richer more educated countries (although not in ones with vast inequalities of wealth between the median and maxima)

 No.668206

Good point

 No.669311

>>667081
If moderate social democracy is going to be punished the same way as extreme gommunism, why not just go full gommunist?

 No.669326

File: 1641050774489.jpg (62.14 KB, 500x375, pcmle-chimborazo.jpg)

>>667081
No, revolutionary communism is.

Death to social democracy anywhere.

 No.670164

>>668075
Nah the ones who betrayed socialism all joined up with the US funded opposition.

 No.670169

India had radical social democeacy for most of its indeoendence and it led them to Hindutva fascism

 No.670223

It was hard fought but Vietnam seem to be doing alright tbh.

 No.670467

Social democracies like Venezuela get attacked just as much. There isn't "more tolerance" for more capitalist minded social politics, only if there is no other way. Social democracy is always the compromise, the countergang to prevent Marxism. You might as well go all the way

 No.670534

>>667081
Communism should be the goal of all states and their citizens you retard

 No.670586

>>670223
Vietnam is dengist.

 No.670588

>>668069
Then why are Nordic workers the most class conscious and have labour union participation up to 70%?

 No.685008

Could be

 No.685087

>>670588
>Implying labor union participation is the same as class consciousness
>Implying that these countries’ public welfare states aren’t getting hollowed out

 No.685609

>>685087
>>>Implying labor union participation is the same as class consciousness
Well… kind of. Can't have labor unions without class conscious workers. I don't have it at hand, but iirc the presence of class conscious orgs (movements, parties, etc.) was directly correlated with labor union partecipation - as to be expected.
So I'd say that he's right, it does imply SOME class consciousness.
In fact:
>Figures from the unions indicate that there are some 7.7 million trade union members in Germany. There are no official estimates of union density, but with almost 40 million employees in Germany in 2017, this implies a density figure of 19.3%.[1] However, the union figures include a substantial number of retired trade union members, estimated at 21.6% of total membership in the largest confederation, the DGB, in 2009.[2] Applying this proportion to total union membership produces a density figure based on employed union members of 15.1%. However, this may be an underestimate, and the OECD figure for union density is 17.0% in 2016.[3]
I wouldn't be surprised if some 95% of them voted for Die Linke
>>Implying that these countries’ public welfare states aren’t getting hollowed out
What do you mean?

 No.685638

>>685609
https://supdurbaneconomics.wordpress.com/2021/05/17/the-pandemic-reveals-the-unequal-housing-situation-in-sweden/
> In the beginning of the 21st century, Sweden had the reputation of acting as a “social-democratic model” with high social support and public services (Socialism Today, 2013). This is but a memory today. Lowered taxes, imposed caps on government expenditure and privatisation has worked its magic and Sweden is today a great example of the neoliberal model. The process has meant that the welfare state has been dismantled and that private companies run schools, elderly homes, nurseries and pharmacies (ibid). The public sector has gone through a market-oriented reform with its deregulations and privatisations, and has become solely capitalistic. In the autumn of 2006, the Moderate party won the election in Sweden with Fredrik Reinfeldt as head of government (ibid). When this happened, Sweden went from having one of the world’s best unemployment benefits and sick pay to drop below the OECD average (ibid). The tax rebate for union membership were abolished which made Swedish trade unions lose 273.000 members. When implementing the neoliberal policies, a rapid dismantling of the Swedish welfare took place (ibid).

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0016718510000849
>After a worldwide financial crisis in the early 1980s, many states decided to implement new public management strategies. These strategies consist of private sector management practices that aim to reduce the cost of public services. The US and the UK first adopted the new public management model and other states soon followed. The Norwegian state was initially reluctant to adopt private management practices, but it eventually implemented modified reforms that suited the Norwegian socio-political context. This article investigates the ways in which the Norwegian state and Norwegian employers shape the labor force in Norwegian nursing homes through new public management strategies, and the tools that foreign-born nurses use to challenge these structures. The Norwegian state shapes the labor force through labor market policies and the rescaling of public services to local governments, and Norwegian employers reinforce the neoliberal values of the state in their hiring practices and daily operations in the workplace. In particular, this article analyzes the interweaving neoliberal institutional and personal factors that influence the working experiences of Polish nurses in a semi-private nursing home in Oslo. The city of Oslo created a unique public–private partnership with a city-owned company that manages three nursing homes in Oslo. The findings of this study indicate that Polish nurses in one of these nursing homes were negatively affected by the new public management strategies. They improved some of their working conditions over time but structural barriers still persist despite high demand for their skills.

 No.685642

>>685609
>Baseless speculation on voting patterns
>Copypasting from wikipedia and not even reading the extensive caveats to labor particiption
>calling it “partecipation”
What are you, some kind of macaroni?

 No.686911

File: 1641919761628.webm (2.39 MB, 958x608, 1641451947703-0.webm)

>>667081
Webm highly related.

 No.686917

File: 1641920119754.png (974.39 KB, 1393x868, 1634444367654.png)

>>686911

 No.686947

File: 1641921097405.jpg (206.91 KB, 1058x766, 1636298141882.jpg)

The thing posts like the OP miss is that there cannot be social democracy in the third world. That's not how labor and capital function under capitalism. Under capitalism you need useful commodities to come from somewhere in order for rich, property owning, capitalists, to make a profit off of the labor it takes to produce them.

In modern day capitalism that comes from the third world. The majority of useful things produced under capitalism today come from the third world. This is why social democracy is feasible under European and first world countries because we exist off the labor and production of the third world countries and why it isn't feasible in third world nations because the opposite is true.

 No.686953

>>686917
>Klaus Schwab
Jesus christ China LMAO


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