/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

Definitely should be abolished in storeshittistahn

If you're going to incarcerate people for slave labour you should at least have the decency to send them camping innawoods instead of locking them in a concrete cage

The prison systems of western nations and the concept of a prison are distinct.
Prisons in western society serve multiple purposes, including punishment by taking away liberty, deterrence for other potential criminals, and confinement to prevent escape for trial or further offenses.
The contemporary capitalist systems have also incentivized private prisons and a 'prison industrial complex' where prisoners are used as a means to create profit. It's reasonable to consider this a form of forced labor below minimum wage. It also creates a financial incentive to imprison people. Involuntary prison labor in general seems to have similar issues.

There are different types of socialism and even capitalism that will have different answers based on values. For example, does imprisoning a person violate a basic human right to liberty, and would that prolonged torture be more immoral than violating a right to life? Are the resources needed to imprison an overall waste? Should a person be kept alive in a prison in case they are later declared innocent?

The idea of imprisonment to await trial (assuming a delay for trial is inevitable) seems uncontroversial and inevitable in most legal systems that aren't radically extreme.
The idea of prison as an ostracizing punishment is controversial as it is generally considered to inhibit rehabilitation and increase the rate of re-infringement.
The idea of a death sentence is controversial. On one hand, indefinite imprisonment may be considered a waste of resources, while on the other it implies the government should have control over your ability to live.

An interesting side note is that people do willingly infringe or re-infringe the law with the goal of being imprisoned. I am aware of Larry Lawton (American who was in maximum security prison for years) claiming he and other inmates has so much trouble adjusting to regular society that there was an incentive to return to their familiar prison society, while an anecdotal reason I've heard is homeless people or people unable to secure basic means seeing prison as a free and relatively secure environment. However, I don't consider either of these inherent in the idea of prisons, merely the artificial alienation of prisons and failure of society to provide for citizens, respectively. A counterpoint to the first example is open prisons, not exclusive but infamous in Norway and other Nordic countries, with a focus on rehabilitating certain inmates into normal society and providing them

I haven't read much Marx but this will be the closest to a Marxist (ie. materialist, who the fuck decided that should be called Marxist?) take you'll get in this thread. Prove me wrong.

Pics: there are prisons better than where you live. first four are Halden

>>669186
>I haven't read much Marx but this will be the closest to a Marxist (ie. materialist, who the fuck decided that should be called Marxist?) take you'll get in this thread. Prove me wrong.
Didn't you reframe the question and point oue different societies and people will have different values and ideas around whag punishment is correct? What is your own view on if prisons should be abolished?

Prisons should be converted into Gulags, with ideologically radicalized guards to ensure dedication to socialism

IMO:
-Incarceration upon arrest until a judgement is made, if found innocent arrestee is released and reperations for time and resources lost are payed as appropriate.
-If found guilty of murder or serial and severe violent crime, the prisoner is executed, after making reperations to the victims family and society as a whole.
-If found guilty of particularly egregious offences then same as above but with additional punishments put in place.
-If found guilty of lesser offences, punishments designed to discourage a first offence as well as future recividism are instated as well as reperative measures to the victims and society at large.
-For perpetrators likely to re-offend methods of post release supervision and behavioural inhibition are instated.

>>669406
lmao no

>>669411
y?

>>669172
>What's /leftypol/'s take on prisons? Should they be abolished? Under capitalism? under socialism?
Socialism is all about equality although in a different framework from the liberal one. I mean an equality that produces a perfect balance between rights and responsibilities. Socialism is not about the elite and a small group of members being those who are "in the know" at the cost of the people, who are the true owners of the country.

So American lawyers can pride themselves on being very "generous" about saving a person's life from the death penalty, but they're not so generous when it comes to sharing the means of production or asking the rich to transfer their revenue to the poor (because then it's about freedom and liberty and private property for them).

Let's also assume that all the lawmakers, corporate lobbyists, lawyers, and celebrities in America live in the poorest areas, are forced to have the exact same level of police protection and medical treatment as the poorest people in their regular lives. Or if that's too "radical," then we can make it simple by letting the "kind-hearted" rich pay for all-star lawyer teams for the poor when facing them in court while he/she only gets a junior intern from law school to represent them. That would be fair, wouldn't it?

And in case of rapists or psychopaths being released back to society, they should be the neighbors of their lawyers and the rich, and be allowed to interact with their family members, and their daughters should be assigned as the mentors and personal tutors to the former murderers and rapists.

But, obviously, that isn't the reality.

If it was, though, then socialist countries could talk about abolishing prisons, the death penalty, etc. But until then, there will be people in those countries that will support maintaining those things as a threat to elites, and a threat to their own leaders if they turn against the people.

most prisons as they are probably will be destroyed during a revolutionary wave

>>669418
yes, there is a difference between capitlaist and socialist prisons in class character and objectives

Prisons are based if you put the right people in them. Serial killers, rapists, pedophiles, capitalist exploiters, organized criminals, etc.
But those types of people aren't really punished by capitalist prison systems, it's mostly poor people, blacks and potheads.

>>669435
>organized criminals
so communists?

>>669440
Communists might fit the literal definition of "organized criminals" but not the spirit of the words. Gangsters are usually ultra-capitalist even if they're against the state, which is why they've been used to break up strikes.

>>669172

most people who go to prison are severely punished relative to what they did and are exploited by capitalist interests to make cheap goods. Lots of companies have contracts with prisons to make inmates make furniture, license plates, clothing and even some electrical gear for maybe 25-50 cents a hour and sell it for hundreds of dollars in the market. Comissary prices on goods and services also charge way more for common goods than stores outside prison do. a bag of chips might be 3 dollars when outside prison it costs 1.50. the prisons take that 1.50 extra as profit. Phone calls in prison can cost like 50 cents a minute to someone who only gets paid 25 cents a hour. Its all just a giant system of exploitation and its basically extreme capitalism.

Under socialism, prisons will still exist. reactionaries and people who threaten the state created will have to be incarcerated. I would imagine under socialism, prisons will not be exploitive but rather will focus on rehabilitating people. Most people in prison are among the lowest educated of society or have severe mental disorders. A socialist society would educate these people or get them proper treatment.

Prisons would probably look similar to Halden Prison in Sweden like one user here posted and only a few people would be there. Mostly rapists, murders or terrorists.

If you're not for emptying every bourgeois prison immediately, you're a lib.

>>669580
Based, bourgoise law is a spook.

prisons were flung open and police departments and archives were burned in the february revolution and were instrumental in creating the kind of street consciousness that helped the october revolution to win
>>669379
a couple more >>>/edu/8593

>>669580
>If you're not for supplying lumpens to the bourgeoisie immediately, you're a lib.
prisons will exist at least as long as the bourgeoisie exist

>>669399
>Didn't you reframe the question and point oue different societies and people will have different values and ideas around whag punishment is correct?
The questions asked included "Under capitalism? under socialism? Will FULL COMMUNISM have prisons at all?". I don't believe a single answer can satisfy those questions as they don't inherently define the values that most determine the answer to the question "Should they be abolished?"
>What is your own view on if prisons should be abolished?
Private prisons? Certainly.
Government prisons? Probably not. If a person is accused of an extreme violent crime, I believe they should at least be imprisoned while awaiting or appealing, or if a path to rehabilitation appears feasible. However, I do believe where possible they should move towards an open prison model.
Mandatory prison labor? Ideally. Labor should be rewarded equally inside and outside of a prison. Mandatory labor incentivizes people to be wrongly incarcerated and exploited.

>>669457
>the spirit of the words
[NTA] I agree on the intent of the words, but maybe avoid 'criminal' if criminality isn't the critical element.

>>669580
Based, free Ghislaine Maxwell and Matthew Hale.

>>669176
fpbp

>>669379
thanks anon

>>669575
Marxism-Leninism-Batinaism

>>669864
People who do organized crime = organized criminals
But I'm sure some edgy westoid is gonna come along saying that Tommy DeSimone was a revolutionary proletariat hero or some shit.