/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

I'm too tired for this one
It's a very good question that deserves a good responce

Could someone tap in for me as I tap out

>>671101
Fixed the image for ya op

Could you elobarate on the meaning of "economic determist" whats the difference between a normal determist and an economis determinist

Marx's materialism isn't saying that everything is determined by the base, just that material reality puts hard limits on what's possible. Think of it like building a house. There are lots of ways you could do it, but you have to obey the laws of physics. Economics has its own laws of physics that you will obey whether you want to or not, but they don't predestine everything that is going to happen.

>>671132
To my understanding Economic determinism is the idea that everything is determined by economic (or material) factor. Economic not in the wall street sense but in the sense of management of resources.
determination means a thing happens for a reason, nothing is left to chance.
>>671143
Predestination is not something i belive, that would me more akin to Feuerbach mechanical kind.
What i mean by it is that that physics do not predestine shit, but physics is the reason why the house is build in a certain way.
In other word if house has a certain colour, is a certain signifier, is build in that position, ecc. the explenation comes down to economic (or material) reasons.
Always. Everything.

>>671171
>In other word if house has a certain colour, is a certain signifier, is build in that position, ecc. the explenation comes down to economic (or material) reasons.
>Always. Everything.
That feels like a silly narrow idealism. My parents built their house where they did primarily because they liked the view. That's subjective, it doesn't seem inherently an economical decision. And the idea of a material reason being the basis of all economic decisions implies to me that all people are sane and intelligent all the time.
And for the record, I do believe in a fully deterministic universe: an identical object in an identical situation will respond identically every time. Randomness is an illusion.

>>671194
>And the idea of a material reason being the basis of all economic decisions implies to me that all people are sane and intelligent all the time.
Disregard; I interpreted 'materialist' instead of 'material'.

>>671194
Doesn't taste itself boil down to material/economic reasons? What we define as a good isn't itself defined by our material circumstances? As superstructure dictate tastes and ideas isn't all because of the base?
Why is concept of good different from a japanese in the 1800 otherwise?

>>671171
>What i mean by it is that that physics do not predestine shit, but physics is the reason why the house is build in a certain way.
>In other word if house has a certain colour, is a certain signifier, is build in that position, ecc. the explenation comes down to economic (or material) reasons.
No, not at all. The actual functioning of the economy is not always clear to people, who are just trying things they think will work that also suit their goals. Sometimes they try things that won't work. What they want isn't necessarily determined by economic forces. Maybe they just have a preference for operating the business in a particular way and that shapes some of the specifics.

>>671225
>Doesn't taste itself boil down to material/economic reasons?
Often, but not necessarily. Someone liking the color pink because they were exposed to it a lot as a child and then branding the products pink as a woman obviously relates to economics. But someone having preferences for a certain type of tree because they saw it while on a hike in mostly un-managed wilderness is not really reducible to economic factors. Material maybe but not economic.

>>671194
Isn't your point about randomness being illusory contested by certain theoretical developments in quantum physics?

>>671229
Yeah i used material and economic like an asshole.
I should use material, because in economy as in managment there is human agency and tied to decision making.
Economic Determinism also implies that there is a conscious choice to respect one economic interest. That's not what i meant at all. Material is more what i mean.

Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past.

>>671246
My understanding is that quantum indeterminacy applies to measurements, not the actual wave function itself. If someone properly familiar quantum mechanics can give input, it's certainly welcome.

>>671246
>>671287 (me)
furthering this, regardless of quantum mechanics I am unaware of any way this has been known to impact the scale of world we live in: physical (which includes chemical) experiments are reliably repeatable and I consider the brain a physical material entity. So as far as human decision making goes, I am confident in determinism.

Marx did subscribe to the view that the economy plays the key role in shaping society and therefore history however he did not conceptualize this primacy in terms of the idea that people are always primarily motivated by economics. In the 1859 preface to A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy Marx wrote a highly condensed and simplified summary of historical materialism.

>In the social production of their existence, men inevitably enter into definite relations, which are independent of their will, namely relations of production appropriate to a given stage in the development of their material forces of production. The totality of these relations of production constitutes the economic structure of society, the real foundation, on which arises a legal and political superstructure and to which correspond definite forms of social consciousness. The mode of production of material life conditions the general process of social, political and intellectual life. It is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but their social existence that determines their consciousness.
https://marxists.architexturez.net/archive/marx/works/1859/critique-pol-economy/preface.htm

In claiming that the “economic structure of society” is the “real foundation” upon “which arises a legal and political superstructure and to which correspond definite forms of social consciousness" Marx was not, as is often falsely asserted, committing himself to the view that the economy is always the main determining element of all other aspects of society throughout all of history.

In Kapital Vol. I Marx writes
>the middle ages could not live on Catholicism, nor the ancient world on politics. On the contrary, it is the mode in which they gained a livelihood that explains why here politics, and there Catholicism, played the chief part.
https://marxists.architexturez.net/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch01.htm#34

In this passage Marx explicitly states that politics played “the chief part” in the ancient world and that Catholicism played “the chief part” in the middle ages. Marx was therefore not a economic determinist who ignored that other aspects of society are important or can play a more important role than the economy at certain historic moments. Marx was instead committed to the view that the economy provides the “real foundation” of other elements of society.

Read Heidegger and Nick Land, they know the Truth and Secrets of life and society.

>>671101
>Men make their own history but not of their own accord
Marx said in his base and superstructure argument for Hismat that the base matters in the final count, which means the final outcome as it occurs in the real world is determined by material factors. This still leaves a lot that can possibly done. If I am hungry and need to make lunch and can only do so with the ingredients I have in the fridge and pantry, I can still make a variety of dishes for lunch depending on the food I have in the fridge.

Anyone who told you Marx was an economic determinist, has likely not read marx.

>>671315
Nick Land knew, but one man cannot hold all that power for long.

The base determine the superstructure, but the superstructure can change the base.
Catholocism prohibited slavery, which is one of main factor for the rise of feudalism in Europe together with the fall of the Roman Empire and lack of safety in the former communities, with farmers seeking protections to castle-owners in exchange of a part of their produce. Changes in the means of production, i.e. science and technology, are part of the superstructure and change the material base of society (see steam engine).
If gruggs didn't bravely decide to choose a stable place to plant berries and breed sheeps we would still live in the caves.

>>671108
Pretty sure the sky is blue in Afghanistan.

>>671890
wow is dat jeebuz?