/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>671581
sauce?

>>671586
Here’s multiple

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet–Afghan_War
https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Soviet-Afghan_War
https://www.npr.org/2021/09/30/1040536017/afghanistan-withdrawal-russia-soviet-afghan-war-veterans
https://www.mei.edu/publications/afghanistans-children-tragic-victims-30-years-war

Isn't it quite similar to Vietnam? You're probably not factoring in ARVN and US allied casualties when it comes to casualty figures. Both US and Soviet troops used extremely harsh measures against civilian population centers suspected of harboring insurgents. This has been a mainstay of counter insurgencies throughout history, as there is a deadzone between winning hearts and minds and outright genociding the local population that most militaries find themselves in.

>>671581
There was a lot of internal conflict between the Soviets and the Mujahadeen, including the fact that the Mujahadeen was a movement- not an official organisation. It consisted of various Afghan tribes and political orgs, ranging from Maoists to Reactionaries- clearly the reactionaries won out to transform the Mujahadeen into the Taliban.

Of course this disjointed unity under one banner lead the soviets to indiscriminately attack them, and not in target leaders sort of way- One potential explanation for the increase after 1983 comes from William Maley, who argues that in 1983, the Soviets shifted from a tactic of driving the Mujahedin from the countryside, to forcing the population out of contested areas, with widespread use of aerial bombardment.

Soviet forces regularly targeted civilians and deployed land mines across the country including urban areas. Violence also escalated during this period as the Mujahedeen increased their activities with new weaponry provided by the United States.

But as for the 2 million afghan civillians killed, not all of this was in part to blame on the Soviets. Also it wasn't excactly 2 million, but more along the lines of 500,000 thousand AT MINIMUM (though that hardly makes things better).
https://sites.tufts.edu/atrocityendings/2015/08/07/afghanistan-soviet-invasion-civil-war/

Again, seeing as the movement had funding from the CIA and China, the Mujahadeen wound up waging war and targetting the Socialist Aligned Afghan Government in terroristic acts- which sadly lead to deaths.

Combine that with the amount of civillians who were displaced as a result of the Soviet and Mujahadeen's actions, and you basically had a recipe for disaster.

>>671591
Your telling me armie generals in the 70s thought it was a smarter idea to round up civilians and shoot them publicly instead of telling them to evacuate and let the actual hostiles reveal themselves in combat if they actually give a shit about the war and fighting?

>>671600
That sounds, really stupid of the Slavs and Americans to pull…

>>671600
Okay, so you tell a village to evacuate and the civilians and the insurgents escape together because most of the village supports the insurgency and you get to occupy an empty village. Now what?

>>671602 (me)
inb4 "stop all the military aged men", that's not really a solution either.

>>671602
>>671604
If they have a shit about winning or fighting they wouldn’t be retreating back and letting the soviets/mujahideen whatever more territory willingly as either side could just keep calling evacuations until the enemy was completely surrounded

>15k commie retards dead
15k down, 99985000 to go. An eye for an eye makes the world just and fair.

>>671602
Now you proceed to the next location until the insurgents are unwilling to retreat.

>>671605
Counter insurgencies are first and foremost about people, not territory. You are making the classic mistake that "common sense" people make when approaching these kinds of conflicts.

>>671609
>mental gymnastics to justify awful decision making the post
Also this makes me think of a British army general in Belgium explaining as to why his men must move as slowly as possible through the village as a smart tactic to avoid getting hit by artillery and bullets less than a km away

>>671613
That's fine if you don't know about these things, but again counter insurgencies are a different beast than tackling a conventional army. It doesn't matter if it's Napoleon's troops in Spain, Japanese in Northern China, or US Marines in South Vietnam. How many examples do you need before you realize these issues are always political and there is no effective military solution short of killing off most of the population you were purporting to save? You're focused too far into the tactical level when guerilla campaigns are almost always won at a higher level.

>>671606
You people know a thing or two about dying, don't you

>>671609
>Counter insurgencies are first and foremost about people
Correct

>>671624
Thank god no one in the second indochina war was retarded enough to repeat the mistakes of the world wars and the Chinese revolution and use human wave tactics. Human wave tactics in modern warfare is fucking idiotic and constantly leads to thousands hundreds of thousands dead in weeks

>>671631
Also lead to victory in regards to the American Civil War, the Great patriotic war and the Chinese civil war.

This post made by Rush B gang.

>>671637
There are smarter ways to gain territory that don’t involve sending off hundreds of thousands to millions of men up against ordinary faggots with ordinary machine guns and turrets that can slaughter hundreds to thousands per soldier

>>671631
The Vietnamese used an adapted version of the PLA's tactics of the short attack and perfected it after two decades of constant fighting. Modern warfare is dominated by crew served weapons systems, with the majority of casualties in conventional warfare coming from artillery, airstrikes, machine guns, etc. If you lack these things, you must rely on manpower, better morale, and improved tactics - and most important of all, superior strategy.

>>671641
no one actually did this

China funding the Islamist mujihadeen alongside the CIA and Israel had something to do with it. They also funded Maoist groups to a much lesser extent, these Maoist groups weren’t aligned with the cia groups , but the majority of the Chinese funding went to the cia Islamist groups alongside Israel

>>671678
Eh lad I'm feeling too lazy to go look it up but my recollection is that it was the opposite the lionshare of the support was directed at the Maoist groups

Anyone willing to do a quick dig?

>>671590
None of your sources back up these numbers. Kys.
Also, your fourth source
>During the 1980s, as part of the Soviet campaign to drive out the rural population, children were specifically targeted. Soviet forces kidnapped an estimated 50,000 Afghan children from villages, orphanages, and city streets in an effort to indoctrinate them in Communist ideology and use them to form militias. Soviet aircraft also dropped a variety of “toy” bombs on Afghan villages and rural fields — mines and bombs made to look like toys — which maimed many children.

>>671748
>Sources only valid if say Soviets good and flawless
I could tell from your flag you were retarded
And I’m guessing the only valid western “historian” is Grover fucking Furr you jackass?

>>671777
>soviets were targeting children with bomb toys in a soviet republic to quell resistance
Do you unironically believe this shit? What the fuck is the purpose? I know your hate boner for tankies is raging, so you'll probably believe anything that makes the USSR look like cartoon villains.

>>671797
That specifically?
No
Do I doubt that fucktons of children died in the war, even at Soviet hands, just from bomb raids?
Of course not, but muh nobility muh good guys does not suddenly change what war actually is

>>671709
https://leftypol.org/edu/src/1639868991142-0.pdf

Nah you’ve just been listening to the purveyors of pro Chinese fan fiction.

400 million went to general Islamist groups. 200 thousand went to Maoist groups. What’s more the funding that went to Islamist groups continued throughout into the early 90s whereas Maoists basically got that one dump of cash

>>671709
Also there is no proven connection between Maoist groups and the CIA besides their involvement with China and the islamists whereas there is mountains of proof of Islamist involvement with the CIA

>>671886
So then what the fuck was your problem with my post other than the very triggering and problematic flag?

>>671930
You don't understand! Soviets dropping bombs looking like toys is a totally real and plausible. If you don't agree, you just hate every source other than pro-Soviet ones!

<wahhhh not the civilians.
Reactionaries kill communist civilians without a second thought.

>>672023
Reactionaries do a lot of nasty shit. What's your point?

>>672044
>What's your point?
to bait you

>>672044
That it doesn't matter. They don't care, nor should we. Do bourgeois shits ever care for the countless Soviet civilians murdered by the fascist invasion? No. Therefore we should not tie our hands when it comes to them.

>>672219
Leninhat you have some interesting posts but you obviously are/will be a disservice to any movement or organization you are a part of. I hope to the heavens you never attain a position of power because you will cause the death of innocents, and people like you will find any justification for it. The Eighth Route Army gained the support of the Chinese peasantry by helping and treating them with respect and kindness, and even converted fanatical Japanese soldiers by treating like brothers and comrades.

Why should the people follow someone like you who is more similar to a fanatical crusader for his ideology?

>>671641
the only time i can think of that this seriously happened was the Boxer Rebellion

>>672219
>>672023
<waaaaaah the evil gubbernmints are stoping me from going to arbys
>hee hee gun down civvies :)
fuck you

>>672236
I am for treating proletarians with kindness and respect as human beings and as my fellow class. As for the bourgeoisie….

>>672286
Well, duh. Maybe specify a bit before calling for the mass slaughter of "civilians".

i think it was part of the soviet-sponsored collectivization policies and liquidation of the rural population, which was necessary considering their patriarchal, feudal society
of course it failed, and US-sponsored goat-humpers took their place
>>672236
stfu liberal

>>672288
I would have thought that was obvious.
Class struggle is a fight to the death, and given the way that defeated revolutions end up, we should feel no remorse or limit.

>>672291
If the Chinese Red Army were liberals then what are you? A fascist?

Dudes.
In the sources it says shit like "the soviets dropped toy-like bombs specifically made to get the attention of children and maim/kill them".
Do any of you believe this crap?!
How come any of you is taking this fucking joke of a source seriously?!
So you tell me that the soviets dropped bombs made like toys, air drop them (they don't explode on impact because then they would be just a funky looking bomb) so when a kid comes by, it sees some, I dunno, a power ranger rippoff toy, it picks it up, and then it fucking explodes?
You're saying me the soviets made a fucking EXPLOSIVE MADE SPECIFICALLY TO ATTRACT AND KILL KIDS?!
This is some "The soviets eat babies" bullshit, wtf
I mean, firstly those bombs needed to come from somewhere, right?! Like, there's a factory, specifically, that or makes these bombs that look like barbie dolls, or picks barbie dolls "soviet edition", carve them up and then put a high explosive in there, then these dolls would be transported to the frontlines, imagine the fucking situation:
>"Ok Ivan, you have to transport these weapons to the frontline, for the Motherland!"
<Uh,, these arent weapons… "Then he picks ones "these are just Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles merch-"
>"NO DIMITRI" The toy fucking explodes, Dimitri now has one hand less.
Now, let's say they make it to the frontlines and then are airdropped in cities or so. Are there any of these bombs left? I mean, firstly, not all bombs explode, some are defective, second this bombs needs a kid to pick it up, what if that kid never comes? That it stays there, and thirdly, WHAT PURPOSE DOES IT HAVE?!
How are you gonna win a war droping and killing fucking children? Like, there were several generals in the top making decisions to win at afghanistan, and they were like "yea, this will be the way to victory, to maim children". Like, with mustard gas it's comprehensible why would you do it, because it's a gas that kills everyone, including soldiers, but this is aimed at a specific demographic that isn't even fighting, kids.
So they preferred to put their money, precious money that could be used to get more weapons, more personnel, more tanks, and decided to use it on fucking toy-bombs?
And fourth point, how come there's no news or documentaries detailing this gruesome "soviet warcrime"? I mean, they won't shut up about the holodomor or the gulags but are silent about the soviets making a bomb specifically made to kills children? Seems like bullshit.

>>672423
The bombs weren't purposefully made to look like toys (this is propaganda), but I guess some kids thought they looked like toys. So yes, it's a western exaggeration.

>>672429
Ah, ok.

>>672423
It's interesting, because when people say goofy shit like this that's trivially easy to disprove, it really makes you wonder what else they're lying about that's a bit less obvious.

>>672430
To be more precise, these bombs are landmines and were dropped to cut off mountain passes. They're made of plastic and don't look like bombs at all (I guess that's the point?), so some kids probably picked them up and blew themselves up. But I think the majority of them simply stepped on these mines.
We can object to the use of landmines because they also harm the civilian population, but saying that the USSR dropped bombs purposefully made to resemble toys is western propaganda.

>>672436
landmines are alright as long as you give a good warning i think

>>672436
The reason they are shaped like they are is so that they flitter out of the aircraft in a wide radius and fall to the ground without blowing up. They are shaped similar to some seedpods. As for the colors, idk.

>>672441
The problem is that they're hard to remove and don't really differentiate between civilian, enemy or friend.

>>672429
Holy shit, mate
The newest Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles merch!!!!1

>>672452
they're a real problem, but the fact everyone still use them should clue you in on the effectiveness

>>671593
>>671748
Just because it disagrees with you it doesn't mean it's wrong

>>671886
>>679778
Idk about the reliability of those figures, but the "toy mines" shit sounds 100% made up.

>>679778
Just because you love the taste of imperialist ass doesn't mean it's healthy.

2 million sounds hard to believe but either way nothing was lost