Anonymous 2022-01-04 (Tue) 02:24:49 No. 672963
>So why were they so eager for an excuse to abandon market socialism to form petty corrupt neoliberal republics >based on larping as if they're going to reclaim the empires of long dead and buried medieval kingdoms
Anonymous 2022-01-04 (Tue) 02:29:43 No. 672967
>>672963 Yeah but how did everyone just go along with it, like "okay so we had 40 years of brotherhood and unity but you know what we really need, a brutal civil war so that we end up with less wealth overall than we started and everyone hating each other."
Anonymous 2022-01-04 (Tue) 02:30:30 No. 672969
>>672967 *than what we started with
Anonymous 2022-01-04 (Tue) 04:21:07 No. 673105
Who's "they"? Western imperialists and comprador cliques within bureaucracy and management? People themselves didn't want to abandon socialism.
Anonymous 2022-01-04 (Tue) 04:34:16 No. 673112
>>673105 >Who's "they"? Western imperialists and comprador cliques within bureaucracy and management? People themselves didn't want to abandon socialism. I recall Zizek in one of his more candid moments saying something along the lines of dissidents like him were fools who thought they could have the liberal democracy and keep the socialism
Anonymous 2022-01-04 (Tue) 04:47:17 No. 673119
>>673112 Pretty much everybody thought in Central and Eastern Europe. We gonna get Western style abundance of products while keeping the socialist living standards!
30 years later
Anonymous 2022-01-04 (Tue) 05:09:39 No. 673135
>>673105 >Who's "they"? Western imperialists and comprador cliques within bureaucracy and management? People themselves didn't want to abandon socialism. Bureaucrats don't fight wars.
Anonymous 2022-01-04 (Tue) 06:14:17 No. 673155
>>673112 During the 80s the issue wasn't really liberalism, but more democracy based on the socialist model. This demand (legitimate or not) was a symptom of problems that started long before. However the so called "civil society" movements became useful idiots for more cynical forces. Idk about Žižek, but there were others who already back then realized that something bad is going on and were writing against liberal democracy and nationalism. Sometimes I get a feeling that Žižek was one of the stupider ones, or rather was brainwashed by the West when he was studying abroad in France.
People in general were aware that the West has lower standards, they weren't that stupid. But because of the uneven development between republics people thought that more autonomy for individual republics would be in their interest - the north was somewhat of a center that both held up and exploited the south as a periphery. Now all of Yugo countries are a periphery for Western Europe.
>>673135 Since you want to be cheeky: no, they start them and let others do it, while they make deals in the background. I'm not talking about the Bureaucrats as some kind of eternal essence, you can masturbate about that all you want. I'm talking about the situation in Yugoslavia where there were multiple political cliques within and without the bureaucratic class. The problem was not with bureaucracy in the abstract but with the particular class interests that emerged in Yugoslavia, and that itself was only a part and a symptom of a larger problem.
Anonymous 2022-01-04 (Tue) 06:55:47 No. 673174
>>672959 Hakim did a great review of the origin of the dissolution.
Basically ethnic tensions + capitalism predating from abroad:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGxC5oonlDY >How shoving a bottle up a farmer's a** caused the fall of Yugoslavia | Weird History Anonymous 2022-01-04 (Tue) 07:40:09 No. 673213
>>673169 It's what happens when you force nation states onto a region that never had nations or relevant borders. These nations are all retroactive constructs, the society was never organized that way before, nor did people identify with nations. The issues in ex Soviet Union aren't that different, it's a mess that will never be disappear until nation states exist in this region. The only solution is a strong federation.
I mentioned above the political and economic reasons for why people wanted more autonomy for individual republics, which was wrong-headed, but that doesn't mean they wanted nation states originally. The translation of this demand into nationalist identity politics came from elsewhere, like the right-wing intelligentsia (politically repressed by authorities, supported by the West, then turned into heroes) in cooperation with cynical politicians who used idpol for their own gain (becoming future compradors and oligarchs).
>>673174 Ethnic tensions were not the cause, they're an after effect that OP is asking the source of. For most of its history the Balkans could actually be a role model for the West when it comes different cultures living together. The whole meme about primitive Balkanians and "balkanization" is naive orientalism at best, but it started as cynicism. The Germans were the best at it, supporting and feeding the wars in all kinds of ways (with weapons as well) while spinning them as unfortunate "birth pangs of democracy".
Anonymous 2022-01-04 (Tue) 07:46:07 No. 673218
Check out the channel Balkan Odyssey. He has many quality and well informed videos on the subject coming from a Balkan communist perspective.
https://youtube.com/c/BalkanOdyssey_ >>673174 Hakim has been terrible lately. This video is just memes and low effort periphery level bullshit, he has no concrete understanding of the subject whatsoever.
Anonymous 2022-01-04 (Tue) 07:55:53 No. 673225
>>672959 Nationalism ruined the entire eastern bloc.
Anonymous 2022-01-04 (Tue) 08:07:46 No. 673232
>>673213 >Ethnic tensions were not the cause, they're an after effect that OP is asking the source of. OP here, and yes, because it seemed like this simplistic explanation that media wanted to sell to the public, that it was just irreconcilable differences in culture, and also to sell a story of le bad Serbs wanting Greater Serbia when the Croat leaders that the West supported wanted the same in a Greater Croatia (and had also in the past had collaborated with the Nazis). I knew about the economic situation being precarious, with high rates of unemployment and emigration, and le IMF loans meme along with the Reagan Administration's efforts to undermine the country as well as their declining strategic value in the face of Gorbachev's USSR. That it progressed from an economic and political crisis to full blown ethnic conflict though, after their united front in resisting the Nazis and their efforts in maintaining relative agency throughout the Cold War seemed like a tragic outcome that deserved further evaluation. To sacrifice what they had built for the war, and the present situation, it begs the question, why? Why, after proving that as a country that Yugoslavs could be successful as a multi-ethnic federation, to turn your back on all that effort for contrived dreams of ethno-nationalism? It's like if /pol/ went mainstream before it even existed.
Anonymous 2022-01-04 (Tue) 08:31:34 No. 673241
>>672967 there wasn't any brotherhood and unity, just a big personality gluing together people that were enemies in ww2
Anonymous 2022-01-04 (Tue) 08:36:19 No. 673247
>>673213 >a region that never had nations or relevant borders. These nations are all retroactive constructs, the society was never organized that way before, nor did people identify with nations lol as a croat, you're fucking nuts
Anonymous 2022-01-04 (Tue) 08:39:22 No. 673248
>>673247 Look out, boys, we have an ustashe on our hands
Anonymous 2022-01-04 (Tue) 08:51:59 No. 673251
>>673248 this is the kind of "brotherhood and unity" you had in yugoslavia, thanks for being a case in point
Anonymous 2022-01-04 (Tue) 09:05:37 No. 673252
>>673251 No one told ypu all to collaborate with hitler.
Anonymous 2022-01-04 (Tue) 09:10:35 No. 673253
>>673252 another case in point, keep it going please
Anonymous 2022-01-04 (Tue) 09:58:38 No. 673274
>>673241 Was he a big guy?
Anonymous 2022-01-04 (Tue) 10:25:02 No. 673284
>>673274 1.7m / 5' 7''
manlet
Anonymous 2022-01-04 (Tue) 10:37:24 No. 673292
>>673247 as a hungarian it's pretty funny how you were 100% content with us ruling over you for like 600 years until daddy habsburg told you to help crush that oh so mean bourgeois-democratic revolution
Anonymous 2022-01-04 (Tue) 10:43:00 No. 673297
mooooooom the balkans are fighting again
Anonymous 2022-01-04 (Tue) 11:10:39 No. 673313
>>673292 were we content or just not politically/militarily strong enough to revolt? i doubt magyarization was greeted with open arms.
Anonymous 2022-01-04 (Tue) 13:11:24 No. 673385
>>673313 >were we content or just not politically/militarily strong enough to revolt? Well, Croatia always enjoyed a special autonomy inside the Kingdom of Hungary, so that's questionable.
Magyarization is something that happened after the '48 revolution and the '67 Austro-Hungarian compromise, it's very much recent history. Yes, the idea of the Hungarian aristocrats after the compromise to create a Magyar nation-state on the basis of a non-nation-state was retarded. Yes, I do understand that in modern Hungarian history every moment of glory (Kossuth, Kun) was followed by decades of being the biggest reactionary chauvinists and cucks to the eternal kraut (Austro-Hungarian Monarchy, Horthy's regime) in Eastern Europe. But before all of this there was little anomisity between the peoples of the Kingdom of Hungary and the same was true for others in the region. Think of the Poles and the Lithuanians who, as far as I understand their history, were fine with living in a single state for centuries. Nation-states are a modern, Western invention, designed to be the basis of large, colonial empires. Basically all nations sandwiched between the Russians, the Ottomans and the Germans were unable to amass colonies, so the Westphalian system became a tool to keep these people weak and easily exploitable instead of being a way to take part in conquering everything outside Europe.
Anonymous 2022-01-05 (Wed) 03:58:33 No. 674400
Why can't the left gain support in our region? Don't tell me it's because of liberal nationalist propaganda, people are tired of that shit.
Anonymous 2022-01-05 (Wed) 03:59:27 No. 674401
>>674400 NATO is literally at your doorstep bruh
Anonymous 2022-01-05 (Wed) 04:12:29 No. 674417
>>674401 As much as I hate NATO, I doubt they're rigging our elections or have a direct control of people's minds. Even if the anti-communist propaganda is constant, it's not all powerful against material interests of the people. I'm not talking about left parties having an ability to change things under EU dictatorship, just their ability to speak to people's interests. There needs to be a build up even if right now nothing can change in practice.
Anonymous 2022-01-05 (Wed) 04:18:41 No. 674421
easy, they’re bloodthirsty slavs
>>673105 >tbh I'm tired of explaining basic things to yet another westoid autist for the 100th time lmao like you had an actual intelligent argument lined up anyways
Anonymous 2022-01-05 (Wed) 06:19:28 No. 674561
>>673213 >Ethnic tensions were not the cause Well, seems it was a trigger effect. Perhaps the answer of the material conditions is that their approach of socialism never alivienated the ethnic tensions as a whole.
See the thread below, arrives a Croatian, and you are already called between you shitnames, behaving sectarian, and you are "communists", between Hungarians, and image if Serbs, Montenegrians, etc arrived to this thread, of wow, the shitshow would be a jerkshow for rightoids.
I know you guys had many grievances thanks to your ruling classes and those differences seem never healed completely.
>>673218 Will check your video.
>>673218 >Hakim has been terrible lately The one being drunk was… odd.
>>673232 >seemed like this simplistic explanation that media wanted to sell to the public Don't take me wrong, I still believe there's a lot of capital and economic structures playing a massive role, but if Yugoslavia ought to change the economic structure and I didn't stop the problems between the members of the Yugoslavia nation, then I am afraid that either those social changes were too high for the small changes of the economical structure or there was no economical structure change significant enough to mitigate that social tension. That won't tell you the media.
Anonymous 2022-01-05 (Wed) 09:34:48 No. 674682
>>674561 >See the thread below, arrives a Croatian, and you are already called between you shitnames, behaving sectarian, and you are "communists", between Hungarians, and image if Serbs, Montenegrians, etc arrived to this thread, of wow, the shitshow would be a jerkshow for rightoids. But this is the modern situation, and everyone in the Balkans seems to have Yugo-nostalgia, so surely for a time they weren't all at each other's throats?
Anonymous 2022-01-05 (Wed) 12:52:36 No. 674795
>>672959 Because the transition to market socialism opened up capitalist tendencies that grew stronger and stronger and the people who had power - directors or heads of companies - pushed more and more for profits and socialist principles were more and more of an obstacle. The 70s world depression also spilled over to Yugoslavia (which, in comparison with the UK didn't have mass layoffs etc., but the standard lowered, there were a scarcity of some products such as coffee and bananas) and people got pissed. And at this moment nationalist managed to jump on stage and blame the hard time on ethnic differences (the people in the South are lazy leeches, Slovenians are just exploiting us etc), and it, sadly, really resonated with people. Like anti-vax resonates today. Then of course the conflicts of the past were back on the menu and everyone started to lose their minds. I mean this was a federal state in which the republics of Serbia and Slovenia had a trade war starting in the mid 80s. And as archives have shown, the USA also had an active role in infiltrating Yugo in the 80s with the intent to destroy it.
Every time i talk to my parents and grandparents (am born 89), they just repeat, we only voted for independence, we didn't vote for capitalism. So basically yes, nationalism was a disastrous fucking cancer inducing drug that everyone in Yugo got hooked on. And it all starts with Kardelj and Slovenians who always pushed fore more federalism and fought against a more centralised system, they won the argument and sine the 60s the state was less and less centralized, leading to rising nationalist tendencies in the republics, especially Slovenia, started accessing international capitalist markets individually, also giving rise to capitalist tendencies within the economy. The Slovenian communists basically set up the main structures of the state and economy and the Serbs had the main control over the military while the rest were sort of not that focused.
Anonymous 2022-01-05 (Wed) 12:54:31 No. 674800
>>674795 And people only slowly started to realize that they've been so majorly tricked and fucked by the would-be-comprador-capitalists. Nationalism is still extremely strong in Croatia and Serbia, while in Slovenia a new Left party based on marxism was established and managed to get into parliament, but the whole participation in the bourg parliament really deradicalized them, many party members resigned from the party in protest for subsuming the Left to the bourg election race etc.
Anonymous 2022-01-05 (Wed) 12:58:31 No. 674802
>>674561 It's more that nationalist pride is VERY VERY, EXTREMELY strong in Croatia and Serbia. I mean you go to a history students' regional conference in Serbia and 90 % of Serbian university students of history prepare a paper about the fucking Kosovo battle. Imagine that. You are a history student, to become a scientist. You have practically an infinite amount of topics you can choose. And the vast majority of students write a paper on the goddamn fucking Kosovo battle. How braindead can one get?
Or the Croatians, when a trip to Jesenovac camp was organised, who refused to visit the camp. In moments like these I really wanna drop a fucking nuke on them, yeah.
Anonymous 2022-01-05 (Wed) 15:39:59 No. 675043
>>675035 and an anti-communist liberal at that
Anonymous 2022-01-06 (Thu) 02:36:56 No. 677001
>>676989 The '74 constitution began the downfall according to this. According to an interview by Tito's grandson, Tito confided in him that approving it was his greatest mistake.
Anonymous 2022-01-06 (Thu) 02:58:05 No. 677058
>>677001 The downfall began at least already in the 1965 with the market reforms when the market of labour and capital was introduced. The 1970s were actually an attempt to ameliorate that by placating both the nationalists and the workers. And the 1965 reforms themselves were influenced by the growing power of republic-level forces and the growing managerial class.
IMO you can't really pinpoint a single point of failure. Yugoslavia was isolated against its will (because it went against Stalin's deal with the anglos) and had to accept compromises to survive, but it failed to prevent the destructive side-effects - which were probably avoidable in retrospect.
Anonymous 2022-01-06 (Thu) 03:41:16 No. 677126
>>672959 For the same reasons as the Dengist counter-revolution, perestroika, 1980s Vietnamese economic "Renovation" - The ruling communist parties developed an increasingly petite bourgeois character (while also becoming more ideologically reactionary by becoming more favorable to religion, adopting national/ethnic chauvinism etc) and began to behave more like capitalists than communist revolutionaries
This is why periodic purges of the party bureaucracy and the cultural revolution were unironically based - Stalin and Mao would have eradicated these capitalist roaders
Anonymous 2022-01-06 (Thu) 03:52:18 No. 677155
>>677126 I've seen this hypothesis before: the interests of the bureaucracy as the ruling class are not the same as the interests of the socialist (worker's) system itself - unlike in capitalism where the interests of the capitalist class are congruent with the system it rules over. So 20th century socialism had this fundamental political contradiction, and Yugoslavia was actually closest to overcoming it via worker's self-management and worker's councils, but it didn't go far enough. By introducing markets it allowed nationalists and the managerial class to emerge in the gap between the workers and the party, which eventually lead to its downfall.
Anonymous 2022-01-06 (Thu) 11:47:34 No. 677589
>>677155 Yup. Introducing workers' self management together with allowing markets that work on capitalist principles you get a giant contradiction.
Anonymous 2022-01-09 (Sun) 17:08:22 No. 683523
>>677126 >Stalin and Mao would have eradicated these capitalist roaders It's astonishing to me, how after Staling and Mao purging nearly the entire party apparatus and still not being able to stop the so-called "revisionists", you retards conclude that they didn't purge enough people. Kys
Anonymous 2022-01-09 (Sun) 23:54:16 No. 684173
>>683523 their ideal state is gang of four china. also they fail to realize that the constant purge of supposed revisionists, is just giving political justification for "revisionists" to take over. After all if you keep purging so called revisionists to the point the state becomes dysfunctional then a so called revisionist takes over and says see look at the failure of ultra leftism, its tearing the country apart
Anonymous 2022-01-12 (Wed) 10:59:59 No. 688136
>>684173 The biggest problems of ML parties was the great influx of people. The bolsheviks had like a few thousand members before 1917 and then it went into the hundreds of thousadns in 1918. The communist party of Yugoslavia had the same problem. A lot of un-communist dreg manged to position themselves into said parties and they didn't have any inclination towards building socialism and whatnot. And when the old guard died these guys fucked everything up.
Anonymous 2022-01-12 (Wed) 17:08:38 No. 688436
>>688136 So should communist states have multi-party legislatures so pseuds don't sneak in and ruin the central party infrastructure?
Anonymous 2022-01-12 (Wed) 17:14:16 No. 688446
>>688436 i like how Cuba, China and DPRK and the
United States does it, you could mix all of them and create a state aparatus that don't need to do great purges every ten twenty years to take out the libs out.
Anonymous 2022-01-12 (Wed) 17:23:54 No. 688452
>>677155 >Yugoslavia was actually closest to overcoming it via worker's self-management No, that was an enormous step backwards and "self management" was a fradulent scheme that didn't actually mean proletarian control.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hoxha/works/1978/yugoslavia/02.htm Anonymous 2022-01-12 (Wed) 17:30:37 No. 688470
>>672959 "Market Socialism" is a fantasy for petit-bourgeois types who are still under the influence of bourgeois ideology and attachment to the capitalist market. Socialism required sophisticated planning at all levels.
>>684173 >if you keep purging so called revisionists to the point the state becomes dysfunctional Very funny assumption and essentially buys the Deng-Tito-Bukharin line of the necessity of capitulating to capitalist elements. The USSR was not remotely dysfunctional after various purges, in fact it only became seriously dysfunctional after the Khrushchevites ended the regular party cleanups (which had already happened in the 1920s and 30s) and the bureaucracy exploded in the 60s/70s.
When these types howl "dysfunction", they really despise the fact that the USSR, PRC, Albania etc operated in the interests of the poorest proletarians.
Chinese billionaires seek to paint the cultural revolution in a seriously negative light, because they despise the proletarian culture of the time, and the loss of priviledges for the bourgeoisie.
Also people think purges = execution when it generally just meant expulsion, criticism, demotion, sometimes arrests and rarely execution.
Anonymous 2022-01-12 (Wed) 17:44:36 No. 688491
>>688452 Yes it did. But the problem was that the workets had to work and had little time to think about the broader problems of the state and society while the management and director had all the relevant info. So in 90% of cases the management's proposals were passed. But there werr actual company-wide referendums held wherr workers voted on whst the company should do. Workers councils also were active and had regular meetings. But as said an unequal position in production, which was unable to be stopped in a few years between 1950 and 1965, restricted the proletarian workers to be on equal footing with management
Anonymous 2022-01-12 (Wed) 17:46:22 No. 688494
>>688436 No. But soviets should be the only tier of governing a socialist state. It is what Stalin also had in mind in 30s to introduce - all could run, not just party members.
Anonymous 2022-01-12 (Wed) 17:53:53 No. 688501
>>688491 >But there werr actual company-wide referendums held wherr workers voted on whst the company should do It's provincialism and turns society back to petty, disjointed production, with competing enterprises, when socialism should mean socialising production on the widest possible scale and any competition should simply be for better production methods, with planning at the highest level coordinated within an entire country and between socialist republics to ensure the development of socialism towards communism.
Anonymous 2022-01-12 (Wed) 17:57:44 No. 688508
>>688501 The market aspect was bad, this is true. But the self-management was a genuine effort. However, as u point out, it produces capitalist tendencies when you have self management and a market. Then each company acts innits own interests. And at the capitalidt tendencies took over the logic of the manegerial strata.
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 06:59:58 No. 690562
Bamp
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 08:09:31 No. 690653
>>688494 >all could run, not just party members making it even easier for capitalists to compete and win?
i mean when it's just party members they at least have to join the party and might be detected as cappies
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 08:27:00 No. 690675
>>690653 Bruh Milosevic was basically posing his entire life as a conventional socialist right up until he became president and then started larping as a Serb nationalist.
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 08:42:45 No. 690688
>>690653 They still won at the end. The communist parties were full of capitalists and a variety of other anti-communists.
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 08:43:45 No. 690692
>>690688 >>690653 And with the masses alienated from the party too much. If you had open tickets, at least the mass of the workers would feel more included and would do more to fight for the perservation of the socialist states not just watching, doing nothing.
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 09:09:13 No. 690711
>>690675 well the only difference i see is that he wouldn't have to larp as a socialist, he could just run as a cappie from the start
let's be real, cappies would've run on "we'll get you a western lifestyle!" and they would have won - which is what happened
i don't see such democracy as good, you need a dictatorial backbone which can have limited democracy sprinkled on it like ornaments on a christmas tree
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