/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

unironically read State and Revolution and pay close attention to Lenin's argument for why you totally need a state because the state upholds class power

and the part where he says that a proletarian state isn't feasible because of the numbers so the actually existing state should be managed by a smaller vanguard who will serve the interests of the proles dude trust me

>>678658
>we need to make the state as big as possible and give control of every aspect of human existence over to a vanguard elite
You need a totalitarian police state to suppress property rights and the free market.

>… in order to achieve stateless, classless society
My understanding is you take away the police state once everyone realizes how well marxism works. But no one every reaches that stage for some reason.

>we need to make the state as big as possible and give control of every aspect of human existence over to a vanguard elite
>… in order to achieve stateless, classless society
Do Marxists REALLY believe this?
No. Just a few retards here.

>>678658
Don't worry bro it will wither away trust me dude

>>678658
If practically everything is nationalized, the state is effectively gathering "taxes" through profits in state owned companies. So no need for formal taxation.
This alone should show you one way in which economic socialism can lead to state-dissolving properties.
The "stateless, classless" society is meant to be a far off goal though and is just a piece of Marx's "historical materialism" idea. It's not necessary to agree with that, to understand that socialism can benefit humanity.

>>678658
>we need to make the state corporations as big as possible and give control of every aspect of human existence over to a corporate board room
>… in order to achieve democratic, capitalist society
Do you really? Because that's your alternative.

You misunderstand what Marxists mean when they talk about the state. The administration of things would remain.

>>678658
>Do Marxists REALLY believe this?
No
Next question

>>678765
How do you go from the state owns everything to the state magically dissolving exactly?
You kind of jumped that little step.

>>678774
>we need to make the state corporations as big as possible
Removing the state doesn't make corporations bigger.
No regulations and corporate welfare will more likely result in smaller but more numerous companies.

>… in order to achieve democratic, capitalist society
Democracy and capitalism are mutually exclusive.

Problem is not inherently the existence of the state but rather maintaining the reach the state can have in every facet of prole life. It's possible to have a strong state while limiting what the state can do in a process to dismantle it. MLs fail at delivering this which is why every state that had a communist party leadership quickly decayed into ordinary neolib capitalism. The state really only needs control of the economy, resources, and quality of education.

>>678673
>You need a totalitarian police state to suppress property rights and the free market.
You dont need to suppress what is inherently unstable without state support.

>>678658
U need a state as a buttress against globalists, only once red hegemony is achieved can the state wither.

>>678672
Funny, that might have been true when he said it in 1917 when Petrograd was like a week away from Farmer Vasily's hut by horse and cart but we have the innerwebz now, democracy is possible. Material conditions change.