/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

Probably the first color revolution in history.

>>680224
Solidarity is no proletarian trade union Solidarity ruined everything with anti communist propaganda and Catholic revisionism

Solidarity has worked with the CIA to take down the Polish People's republic

In my opinion I don't like them

My parents lived in the Polish People's republic and they said

It was a totalitarian hell hole I used to believe them until I discovered
Marxism leninism maoism and socialist theory
One more thing my farther is an antisemit and an anti communist and also a trump fag he is also russothobpic I still care for him because he in bad health but I am having difficulty deciding that
Should I believe my parents or should I believe facts and socialist theory if it comes to the Polish People's republic

>>680224
What have you been reading?

I've got to say, hating on Solidarność must be the surest way to identify a western tankie, ignorant of history, politics and bare realities of a "real socialist" country, yet always instinctively supporting its incompetent, sclerotic, capitalism-loving leadership over workers successfully performing a general strike.

>>680247
>I have difficulty deciding if I should believe facts
Bruh

>>680275
>workers successfully performing a general strike
Okay cool, what were their demands though

>>680275
The interest started with watching Kieslowski's movies and wanting to understand the political aspects so I picked up two books Breaking the Barrier: The Rise of Solidarity in Poland and The Polish Revolution: Solidarity but I only just started today.

>>680224
Remember that if you take exaggerate and generalize each one of these events that have proven to be the result of CIA ops, like
· Solidarity
· latter period of CPUSA
· certain Maoist groups
· certain anarchist groups
· and many more examples
You're eventually left a passive liberal, since you've been politically frightened from doing anything at all (and therefore still resulting in an outcome favorable to the CIA & Co.).

Do the basic research, of course, but don't be paralyzed into some virtualized eternal reader, either.

Polite sage.

>>680224

One of our Franco-Polish comrades Bruno Drweski wrote a book on the subject.

Legitimate grievances coopted by a movement with heavily foreign sponsored heads. Call it a trial run of the colour revolution tactic.

Interestingly, despite the extreme anti-communism that was cultivated in Poland after 90, the book is selling pretty well in Poland from what the author can tell.

Notice how many Eastern European and even German folk of former Communist countries end up very strict and hard line Christian conservatives? They talk up the "authoritarian" socialist boogyman yet are the first to support Christian extreme conservativism like they do in Poland. The only nation that is still decent is Russia. Now of course alot of people end up between weird liblefts and Nazbolesques on a spectrum but at least they're "woke" enough to realize that christian extremism or centrist globalist liberalism aren't the answers. I feel bad for Russians because I truly believe they can do better than Putin but are stuck with liberal freaks looking to sell out Russia to the west.

>>680224
Strikes are direct action

>>680331
Strikes are direct action

>>680288
I've read neither, but they sound like a good choice. Goodwyn sounds like a good guy trying to set things straight against a propaganda onslaught, and while I wouldn't normally trust Garton Ash, whom I remember as a darling of our neoliberal media elites, a 1984 book should be reasonably free of distortions.

It was a CIA OP next

>>680331
>>680334
Strikes are direct action but these ones were coopted by the CIA unfortunately

They tried to completely ban abortion and they did dissolve public kindergartens as first act of business. Fuck solidarnost. Fuck pooland, Russians went to easy on them

petty bourgeois revolution that turned Poland from a modern country into a neo-fascist tradcath shithole

>>680247
Jezu. Powodzenia towarzyszu.

>>680340
Strikes are direct action

>>680308
I don't understand the frog language. did he do something similar in polish?

>>680806

Yes the same book exists in Polish. Highly probable he has spoken about it with the Rebirth of Communism dude (Mikail?)

Alternatively, google auto transkate isusually okay these days.

>>680806

https://www.youtube.com/c/TowarzyszMichal/featured

You'll have to search the polish channel.

>>680275
What kind of workers movement implements shock doctrine economics shithead?

>>680539
yeah this is basically what I've heard on /leftypol/ previously. basically what happened to the communist party of the soviet union too, even, though over a longer period of time

>>680275
The history was that Poland's economic difficulties were a result of massive loans taken out by their retarded leadership, which is the same Caeusescu did and got the wall for it, and the same Ulbricht wanted to do before he got canned and replaced by Honecker.
I want to say most of these Polish anticommunist boomers are just people who grew up in the 70s and 80s and only knew debt-induced economic austerity.

>>680913
No, anon is right. The movement wasn't one guy having a single thought in one frozen point in time. These movements were the result of actual problems and didn't just fall from the sky, they weren't even against socialism most of the time. But they were coopted by nationalists, sometimes clergy, as well as party officials themselves. Most officials then became mass privatizes of collective wealth during the transition, against the demands of the initial movements, some became oligarchs. In countries where the transition wasn't as brutal it was because the people and unions resisted, they didn't want to lose the jobs and the socialist-level worker's rights. Rarely it was because some gigachad ex party comprador didn't totally cuck to Western porky because of his warm heart.

>>680923
>I want to say most of these Polish anticommunist boomers are just people who grew up in the 70s and 80s and only knew debt-induced economic austerity.
Most of these boomers weren't even anti-communist initially, it took some brainwashing and a lot of finger pointing. There's now been more than 3 decades of nationalist kitsch and liberation mythology, and still you hear boomers admitting that socialism was better than this shit.

A movement of declassed bourgeois and lumpen funded by NATO.

>>680913
>Sankara shitting on AnSyns
Noooo :(

>>680995
>declassed bourgeois
Do you realize that these countries didn't transition from capitalism to socialism, but the other way around? That bourgeois class had to be imported from the outside, hence they became comprador states?
>lumpen
That doesn't make sense no matter on how many levels of capitalist realism you're on.

>>681041
Lmao, the bourgeoisie who are dispossesed by socialism ALWAYS harbour a grudge and seek to restore their power. They are stripped of their land, privileges, wealth, property, and rightly so, but of course they resent this. Counterrevolution eventually triumphed thanks to 30 years of Khrushchevite bureaucratic-revisionism and sops to the peasants.

Class struggle intensifies in socialism. They will always try to topple socialism and it's why the proletarian dictatorship untramelled by law as laid out by Lenin and Stalin is necessary to liquidate remnants of bourgeois life until the final victory of revolutionary communism worldwide.

As for lumpen, they usually lack class-consciousness and are not really useful to communism. They're used as battering rams, as paid thugs and hired goons for the bourgeoisie.

>>681012
Too bad, nerd. You educate an illiterate people with the teachers you have, not the teachers you want, even if you have to force them to do it.

>>680951
I'm not denying that conditions were less than ideal, but instead of coming up something better they went babby's first counterrevolution, there was one solidarity guy who said he didn't do it to reinstate capítalism, i'm not saying everyone there was a capitalist wrecker, a good chunk was lied to and deluded, but the core leadership definitely sucked balls.

>>681066
book?

>>681061
You're not listening. These countries didn't transition from capitalism to socialism, in most cases they were developed under socialism practically from nothing. There was no meaningful bourgeoisie, especially not after decades of socialist transformation of society - again, NOT from capitalism as a starting point. At best you can point to clergy instead in some countries, but that's a different beast yet again. And your idea of lumpen is even more ridiculous in this context. I'm just going to assume you're a westoid high on abstractions who literally can't imagine that socialist societies were not the same as whatever shitty welfare state you had in the west, with your lumpens and your porkies. The problems that emerged in 20th century socialisms were precisely because they had a different class structure with a different relation between the ruling class and the system itself than what you see under capitalism. To simplify it, the interests of the political bureaucracy and technocracy were not directly aligned with the socialist system they were ruling over, which was instead aligned with the interests of the working class. This contradiction between the rulers and the system itself is not something you can dismiss as lack of "book reading" or "faith" by the party members or the masses, like many westoid larpers do because reading and believing is the extent of their experience. It was a structural problem which led to officials mismanaging the system, accepting policies unfit for the system, and letting problems accumulate, which in turn periodically led to these worker movements demanding more rights and more workers' control. It is the parties themselves who became rotten from the inside, filled with liberals and nationalists. And these same people then helped steal the protests and sold us out to the West. It was practically a color revolution by the party itself in collaboration with the West. And I'm going to repeat again: there was no national bourgeoisie waiting to take over. That's the paradox of a transition straight to socialism and afterwards to capitalism - socialism prevented the bourgeoisie from even developing in the first place, so during the transition to capitalism it had to be "imported" from the outside while the party officials turned into compradors. The privatizations and liberalizations that followed were done AGAINST the people's wishes and it is the extent to which the people were/are still organized that some small traces from socialist era still remained. Blaming the workers in all this for demanding more socialism in the 80s is fucking stupid.

the only good response to this is just not giving a fuck

>>680247
>dad is an antisemitic trump supporter.
Kill him.

i'm seething about them to this day. they took away my opportunity to lead a prosperous lifestyle so i hate them and i hate the cia

literally funded by geroge soros

>>681537
nibba poland still had food shortages in the 80s

>>680275
>immediately dissolved itself when collapsing the polish government is done
>now Poland have terrible labor laws and low pay
Yup totally not a glow op. Totally worked like an actual labor union.

>>681137
https://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=AEE8F397E4DE2DB98D775A5CA9E3421B
from the interview on page 176

>>680643
Witaj polski towarzyszu, jak leci

>>681304
Don't waste so much energy on Leninhat. I'm not entirely convinced that he isn't a bot.

>>681304
Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania etc were all capitalist states before 1945, and frankly, except for Czechoslovakia, they had all been fascistic regimes in the interwar period, with communists arrested, suppressed, murdered and exiled. So yes, they did transition from capitalism to socialism.

The USSR had to try to cobble together and support the revolutionary workers in these lands the best it could. This involved nationalising capitalist property, collectivising agriculture, wiping out the priviledges of the bourgeoisie/nobility/clergy/landowners, fighting counterrevolutionaries (particularly in Poland where they waged white terror in service of Britain and America) and implementing economic planning. This produced a disgruntled ex-bourgeois population, and with the size of the peasantry in these countries, that was also another factor hindering communism and proletarian dictatorship.

Bureaucracy was a problem of revisionism that eventually buried the Warsaw Pact, but frankly, it was the ideological deterioration that was key to this. Lumpens do unfortunately exist in socialist societies. Alcoholism remained a problem in the USSR. Shirking of work still happened, and of course there were those who joined the fascist invaders during WW2. Of course, they were a tiny minority, but such people are often used by clever reactionaries. The overall structure of the USSR was not so much of a problem, but over time it became weakened.

https://espressostalinist.com/the-real-stalin-series/cold-war/
https://www.marxists.org/history/erol/uk.postww2/bland-cominform.pdf

>>681674
i know, but the 80s were some of the worst years for the ppr. i highly doubt that the polish experience in 2022 would be so horrible if the state survived, even in the belarussian market socialist form. i feel so horrible with the fact that my country used to be socialist but was fated to become the shithole it is now, my generation is not going to know what stability is like until china maybe follows through on their socialism master plan and spreads the revolution to this fucking graveyard

>>682013
NTA, ale chociaż zgadzam się z tobą, Solidarność moim zdaniem jeszcze była organicznym wrażeniem odporności aktualnym problemom PRL. Tylko ją kooptowali reakcyjne elementy społeczne. Rzeczywiście trzeba było coś zmienić.

W każdym razie ona nie zasłużyła takiego losu.

>>682013
Market Socialism is a meme.

>>682020
i do prefer planned economies, i was just putting the belarussian example out there
>>682019
>Solidarność moim zdaniem jeszcze była organicznym wrażeniem odporności aktualnym problemom PRL. Tylko ją kooptowali reakcyjne elementy społeczne. Rzeczywiście trzeba było coś zmienić.
to prawda. zastanawiam sie czy protestujacy robotnicy z solidarnosci dalej by protestowali gdyby wiedzieli co czeka kraj po transformacji ustrojowej

>>682032
Dawno przestało być ichnim wyborem, co dzieje się z Ruchem.

>>680224
Same shit as when all the "leftists" support Kazakhstan revolts - glowies support glowed "revolutions", which result in a massive drop of living standard, "shocktroopers" of reforms becoming worse off as a result, and Gdansk's shipyards, which have spawned Solidarnost, are now closing off. Used, fooled, and tossed away. Never fucking support glowed revolts, however much "leftists" want you to believe it was legitimate worker whatever.

>>680224
Glowfags