/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>686828
Anti-idpol very obviously is motivated by idpol sentiments of whites and/or cis-men and/or heterosexuals. Other forms of oppression, that can be argued stem from capitalism, are also important and are clearly linked to identity traits other than class. These forms of oppression are also relevant to "leftists" and the usual response by "anti-idpol" communists to that is to either woefully ignore or deny these other forms of oppression by pedantically emphasizing their origin in class struggle, which is already obvious, but in fact doesn't lead to these other forms of oppression becoming irrelevant or non-existent. While liberal idpol has an ill conceived understanding of the issues at hand and proposes the wrong solutions, Marxist intersectionality does have a proper understanding of them and proposes the right solutions as well. As I said, the only reason why you would oppose addressing these issues, which would inevitably lead to speaking in terms of identity other than class, is because you are probably a white heterosexual cis-male and share the same sentiment with bigoted right wingers, who are white heterosexual cis-men.

>>686847
>Nowadays people associate socialism/communism/marxism/anarchism with tiktoker alt-sexual "degenerates" (for lack of a better word) and not just "traitors" as was previously the case due to all the brainwashing throughout the 20th century.
That sounds like an improvement tbh

>>687033
It's also not true. Communists 100 years ago were often said to have "loose morals," were anti-Christian, and lived unconventional lifestyles such as having sex before marriage. Also during the heyday of the communist movement in the U.S., was closely associated with the black struggle during an era of rigid Apartheid. I learned an interesting fact recently that one of the communist parties that the CPUSA has historically had close ties with is the South African Communist Party because the parties consider their conditions to be similar.

>>686960
>capitalism is the solution to racism
meanwhile in reality capitalism is the cause of racism
i grow ever more tired of your dishonesty

>>687031
No it’s not.
They push white idpol if that were the case.
The argument is only that class is the pot that all this other identity shit is boiling in, and if you don’t start there you have missed the point.

>>687043
They would*

>>687037
And "anti idpol" seethers were historically glowies like Orwell who complained about sandal wearers and feminists

>>687031
>Anti-idpol very obviously is motivated by idpol sentiments of whites and/or cis-men and/or heterosexuals
thats a whole lot of conjecture, but regardless, why does the race, gender and sexual orientation of the people who these sentiments are coming from matter?
>Other forms of oppression, that can be argued stem from capitalism, are also important and are clearly linked to identity traits other than class
no one denies this, in fact this is even more motivation to do away with capitalism.
>These forms of oppression are also relevant to "leftists" and the usual response by "anti-idpol" communists to that is to either woefully ignore or deny these other forms of oppression by pedantically emphasizing their origin in class struggle
but what you're describing here isn't reality. what is reality is saying that this oppression is a result of capitalism and will only be done away with at the abolition of capitalism, to do anything else is at best redundant and at worse a distraction.
>As I said, the only reason why you would oppose addressing these issues, which would inevitably lead to speaking in terms of identity other than class,
yes distracting the working class with IDpol rather then class politics delays revolution.

>>687041
>meanwhile in reality capitalism is the cause of racism
racsim has always existed where POC's are not property in charge capitalism or not.
and will stay that way under your hetronormative brocialism
kill the white supremacist in your mind

>>687045
>And "anti idpol" seethers were historically glowies
today I learned Marx was a glowie

>>687048
>racsim has always existed
capitalist realism

>>687046
>why does the race, gender and sexual orientation of the people who these sentiments are coming from matter?
Because the societal constellation that constitutes the oppression based on race, sex and sexuality (as examples) simultaneously has a demographic that collectively benefits in each of those domains or are treated as on top, as the center. Many people have grown used to a certain culture that has placed that demographic at the top or at the center and when attempting to change said culture, we are met with a backlash reaction, because said demographic sees their power slip away or believes what has been is natural and to do away with it is unnatural. They have the tendency to lash out in response to addressing and changing this societal constellation.

>no one denies this, in fact this is even more motivation to do away with capitalism.
I agree. Which is why I also place class first, but I don't advocate for "anti-idpol" whatsoever and think "idpol" should be engaged with it, because said demographics are suffering under it in the meantime and we ourselves can contribute to that suffering with our own actions. Even as fellow comrades.

>but what you're describing here isn't reality.
I'm describing reality actually.

>yes distracting the working class with IDpol
What you are downplaying here has been a core part of other people's lives all their lives. i don't see it "as a distraction," it's harm we have to address as well.

Doing away with capitalism enables us to do away with these other forms of oppression, but doing away with capitalism alone doesn't end these forms of oppression.

>>687050
The Wikipedia page doesn't say that though

>>687052
Not that anon, but class has always been a greater factor in racism.

no OP, class will remain the dominant and most important axis for the foreseeable future. we know what the alternative is: a Cartesian product of less important concerns, a fracturing of the left until only the grievances of tiny minorities remain. where what is important is whatever group liberals should feel most sorry for

>>687031
This post is scapegoating the masses for problems caused by capitalism. Discrimination is a feature of class society. The enduring solution to Discrimination is increasing the power of victims to the point where any attempt at discrimination is frustrated easily. But that line of thinking is incompatible with the enforcers of class society which requires universal subjugation.
The only intersection that's going on here, is with neoliberalism. Slowly but surely identity politics is revealing it self as yet another vector of oppression.

>>687064
NTA, but why are you even arguing when you agree that class needs to be put first.
Idpol IS politics based entirely on identity and is a liberal construct.
This apparently is a difference of definition.

>>687078
Seems to me that the cause of the split was because they wanted to do electoralism, and the "urr middle class hippie bad" is the cherry on top. This text actually mainly advocates against communist orgs partaking in porky elections.

>>687089
No, the cause of the split was that Woodhull was a grifter that wanted to use the International as her own hobby horse.
> Meanwhile, as the Presidential elections approached, the cloven hoof showed itself – namely, that the International should serve in the election of – Madame Woodhull!
>Apropos. In article signed W. West, in Woodhull's, etc., journal, March 2, 1872, one reads:
>"The issue of the 'Appeal' of Section 12 to the English-speaking citizens of the United States in August last was a new departure in the history of the International, and has resulted in the recognition by the General Council of Political Equality and Social Freedom of both sexes alike, and of the essential political character of the work before us."

>>687095
> Woodhull, etc., journal, March 2, 1872. Under the title, "The Coming Combination Convention", the statement:
>"There is a proposition under consideration by the representatives of the various reformatory elements of the country looking to a grand consolidated convention to beheld in this city in May next, during Anniversary week…. Indeed, if this convention in May acts wisely, who can say that the fragments of the defunct Democratic party will come out from them and take part in the proposed convention…. Every body of radical everywhere in the United States should, as soon as the call is made public, take immediate steps to be represented in it."
(Apropos. The Woodhull journal, I can't find the date, comforts the spiritist sections with the though of telling the General Council to go to the devil.)
>Woodhull, etc., journal, April 6, 1872:
>"Every day the evidence that the convention called for the 9 and 10 May by representatives of the various reforms… is to be a spontaneous uprising of the people increases in volume."
National Women Suffrage Association supplements this:
>"This Convention will… consider the nominations for President and Vice-President of the United States."
>Ditto under the title:
>"The Party of the People to secure and maintain human rights, to be inaugurated in the United States in May 1872."
>The Appeal was headed by the signature: >Victoria C. Woodhull, followed by Theodore H. Banks, R. W. Hume (Banks one of the founded of the Counter Council). In this Appeal: the convention will consider "nominations for President and Vice-President of the United States". Specially invited are:
>"Labor, land, peace, and temperance reformers, and Internationals and Women Suffrages – including all the various suffrage associations – as well as all others who believe the time has come when the principles of eternal justice and human equality should be carried into our halls of legislation."
>Woodhull, etc., Weekly, April 13, 1872. The >Presidency dodge is presented ever more clearly. This time, for a change:
>"… Internationals, and other labor reformers – the friends of peace, temperance, and education, and by all those who believe that the time has come to carry the principles of true morality and religion into the State House, the Court, and the Market Place."
>Under the title: "The Party of the People, etc.", a new Appeal, always with Victoria C. Woodhull at the head, followed by the chief scamps of the Counter Council, Th. H. Banks, R. W. Hume, G. R. Allen, William West, G. W. Maddox (the subsequent president of the Apollo meeting), J. T. Elliot (the English secretary of the Counter Council), T. Miller (delegate of French Section 2).
>Woodhull, etc., Weekly (it isn't called Journal), April 20, 1872. Continuation of the same dodge.
The list grows, always headed by V. C. Woodhull. (There are also "Honorables" among them.)
>Woodhull, etc., Weekly, April 17, 1827 [1872]. Continuation of the same ballyhoo. (Begins to print the list of delegates.)
>Woodhull, etc., Weekly, May 4, 1872. Continuation of the dodge. (Constant reprinting of same and of enlarged lists.)
>Woodhull, etc., Weekly, May 25, 1872. At last (Apollo Hall scandal, May 9, 10, 11), Woodhull for President of the United States, F. Douglass for Vice-President. (Maddox of Counter Council, president of the convention, first day.) >Laughingstock of New York and United States.
>The rest, officials of the Counter Council: John T. Elliot, vice-president, G. R. Allen, secretary (and member of Committee on Resolutions and Platform). In the latter committee, Th. Banks (one of the five founders of the Counter Council, November 19, 1871). Also Mrs. Maria Huleck on one of the committees. In the Central National Committee of New York there figure: G. R. Allen, Th. H. Banks (next to Colonel Blood, member of Section 12 and lover of Victoria), J. B. Davis.
>Breakup of the Counter Council.
>Section 2 (French) removes Laugrand (until then the French secretary of the Counter Council) as delegate. They accuse the fellow
"of using the organization for political purposes, and as a sort of adjunct to the free-love branch of the women's rights party…. Citizen Millot" (he proposed the withdrawl of Section 2 from the Counter Council, which was accepted) "stated upon the introduction of the Resolution that only three sections – 9 (Claflin), 12 (Woodhull), and 35 – were represented in the Apollo Hall 'odds and ends' convention, by scheming men for political purposes, and that the delegation in the said convention pretending to act for the Federal Council was a spurious one and self-appointed." (But the Federal Counter Council did not repudiate them.) (The World, May 13, 1872.)

>>687064
>Because the societal constellation that constitutes the oppression based on race, sex and sexuality (as examples) simultaneously has a demographic that collectively benefits in each of those domains or are treated as on top, as the center. Many people have grown used to a certain culture that has placed that demographic at the top or at the center and when attempting to change said culture, we are met with a backlash reaction, because said demographic sees their power slip away or believes what has been is natural and to do away with it is unnatural. They have the tendency to lash out in response to addressing and changing this societal constellation.
ok this is very anti marxist. Power is held by the ruling class based on their material asserts not hereditary traits associated with their personhood.
What you're describing is closer to the feudal concept of divine right of kings but twists to be some weird racialist ideology.
>I agree. Which is why I also place class first, but I don't advocate for "anti-idpol" whatsoever and think "idpol" should be engaged with it, because said demographics are suffering under it in the meantime and we ourselves can contribute to that suffering with our own actions. Even as fellow comrades.
your logic doesn't follow.
if you put class first why are you wasting your time with IDpol?
>I'm describing reality actually
what you're describing exists solely in your head.what is reality is saying that this oppression is a result of capitalism and will only be done away with at the abolition of capitalism, to do anything else is at best redundant and at worse a distraction.
>What you are downplaying here has been a core part of other people's lives all their lives
what is that exactly?
>i don't see it "as a distraction," it's harm we have to address as well.
we do address it with Marxism, not IDpol
>Doing away with capitalism enables us to do away with these other forms of oppression, but doing away with capitalism alone doesn't end these forms of oppression.
no one said it did.

>>687098
>>687095
>>687089
And yes, that is what idpol leads to: a massive liberal fixation on identity that leads to hucksters hobby horsing.
In this case, it was bourgeois electoralism.

>>687134
>Power is held by the ruling class based on their material asserts not hereditary traits associated with their personhood.
>What you're describing is closer to the feudal concept of divine right of kings but twists to be some weird racialist ideology.
.. No, very clearly we can tell that the societal constellation, which is the result of capitalism, has favored some demographics over others. Power does not only come in the form of material assets, but is also expressed in culture. Therein lies another dimension of power that oppresses people or benefits people, who don't own the means of production privately.

>to do anything else is at best redundant and at worse a distraction.
It isn't and that's just pure egotism. Aiding people in their struggle with those secondary forms of oppression can attract them to the communist cause, you can alleviate their suffering in that regard and you can formulate further theories to dismantle said oppression for after the fall of capitalism, for which we both agree doesn't happen solely because capitalism is gone. Additionally, bigoted socialists can turn away those people. I've asked here before how they would do away with the other forms oppression after establishing socialism, and I didn't receive any good answers and the bigotry on here, be it misogynistic, homophobic or problematic in regards to racism shows me that self-avowed communists can still pose an issue.

>no one said it did.
Then obviously we will have to address the subject of dismantling the secondary forms of oppression additionally.

>>680694
Yeah, American blacks are pretty much fucked.

The libs are filling you with candy and turning you into a big pinata for the end of America party and at least a portion of you seem cool with this. They'll use their news and academia and movies and crypto commercials to suck your cocks and sing your praises until the white population is so fucking sick of it that there's a violent backlash.

I don't want to ever see a race war in my life but its what they're working towards. I swear its like a card they keep up their sleeve and threaten to play at critical moments (see: pic related)

>>687180
>No, very clearly we can tell that the societal constellation
thats not true but at least you're not hiding your opposition to marxism
>capitalism, has favored some demographics over others
no one denies this.
>Power does not only come in the form of material assets
again the position wasn't that power *only* comes from material asserts but the material asserts are where power is derived from.
>but is also expressed in culture. Therein lies another dimension of power that oppresses people or benefits people, who don't own the means of production privately
again it is expressed in culture by those who have a certain degree of material asserts not merely some hereditary traits

>It isn't and that's just pure egotism
ok why not
>Aiding people in their struggle with those secondary forms of oppression can attract them to the communist cause
no one disagrees however this isn't an excuse for IDpol
>you can alleviate their suffering in that regard and you can formulate further theories to dismantle said oppression for after the fall of capitalism
marxism isn't about alleviating suffering under capitalism
>I've asked here before how they would do away with the other forms oppression after establishing socialism, and I didn't receive any good answers and the bigotry on here, be it misogynistic, homophobic or problematic in regards to racism shows me that self-avowed communists can still pose an issue.
maybe you should read some theory then. Marx's concept of base and superstructure should answer your questions

half of your posts have been arguing against points no one has made also you were unable to address:

>I agree. Which is why I also place class first, but I don't advocate for "anti-idpol" whatsoever and think "idpol" should be engaged with it, because said demographics are suffering under it in the meantime and we ourselves can contribute to that suffering with our own actions. Even as fellow comrades.
your logic doesn't follow.
if you put class first why are you wasting your time with IDpol?
>I'm describing reality actually

>What you are downplaying here has been a core part of other people's lives all their lives
what is that exactly?
>i don't see it "as a distraction," it's harm we have to address as well.
we do address it with Marxism, not IDpol

>/leftypol/ falling for obvious bait post #32648
sage

>>687205
one thread does not a raid make

>>686866
This meme is funny to me because the extent of my political involvement (demonstrations and so forth) around 2011-2012 were with the gay rights movement and not Occupy, which didn't particularly interest me.

It's cool being treated like a scapegoat for the left's failures, though. Keep up the good work, guys!

>>687253
Oh damn, it's over for communism, bros.

>>686847
>People here even refuse to create a telegram channel because it's considered a "fascist" platform or whatever
I proposed it in the congress Matrix a couple weeks or so ago and the main objection was that the app exposed your phone number by default, not that it's a "fascist platform".

>>686717
>I think the best method would be containment threads for the typical /pol/ topics.
The key here would be enforcement of the "no bad faith argumentation" rule + organic participation from people informed on the topics

>>687253
>Why? Simple. You killed our movement in the 1940s. We will kill your threads.
you did that yourselves
>>687275
>>686847
use xmpp you idiots

>>687253
>You killed our movement in the 1940s. We will kill your threads.

The Nazis killed themselves by starting a war with the USSR they could not win.

>>687253
>existing communist states like China
China is not socialist.

>>687253
>True. Many threads over many weeks, however, do. I have been shitposting and false flagging as an ancap, vowshite, hazbro, maoist larper, neocon, whoever necessary in order to kill as many threads as possible pushing them to page 10. I have personally found this method to have it's merits, especially when I want a quick laugh and (you)s, but it isn't effective to actually consistently waste time of posters here.

whos to say you aren't false flagging right now?

>>687253
Don't you think you're wasting more of your own time than ours?

>>687253
oh nice we have another weird false flagger wonder if hes friends with the gonzaloist false flagger

>>686847
Matrix is awful. That kind of software veganism is not conductive to anything but hipsterism and misplaced elitism.
If we truly wanted to reach out to people we would be using Discоrd but anon will oppose it on culture war grounds.

>>686871
> Identity politics has been sponsored by major corporations since OWS for a REASON. Why the fuck do you think corps now show how "progressive" they are and behave as if they're the number one supporters of all this shit?
This edges a bit too much towards conspiratorial thinking. It doesn't need to be that complicated.

More, dedicated customers = more, reliable profit, principally.
It's the same reason there are chinlet coffee companies now too. Companies invest in PR so that customers will attach themselves to these companies as "supporters" or "stans" as a parasocial relation with some bodyless Lovecraftian horror.

The second benefit is a psychic balm on alienation, it makes people feel like they're "doing something" while only reinforcing the real source of their pain. Capitalism recuperates problematic elements, who knew?

Liberal idpol sucks about as much ass as reactionary idpol,
Like all liberal struggles for liberation.It aims to only address secondary contradictions while either ignoring or re-enforcing the primary contradiction of Class society

Counterrevolutionary intelligence services DID latch onto the specific liberation movements as a way to undermine the left, but those movements already existed, and were rejected by the US Communist left.

>>687048
Racism in its modern incarnation is a hangover of Race Science, an invention used to justify the
trans-Atlantic slave trade because slavery used to have a religious basis (non-Christians could be enslaved, if you converted you were to be freed), and the genocidal colonization of native land in the New World. It's a historical phenomenon that can be overcome.

>>687309
The reason they disapprove it is because of the privacy concerns and the known hisatory of dadamining of the company that made it.

youre completely correct and youre right to say it

>>680500
>>680565
>>680558
>>680545

missing the point. liberals being retarded idealists and moralists is obviously not going to change and right now that usually includes a lot of "idpol" language. people taking their own and other peoples social identities, even when theyre somewhat nebulous and circumstantial, is also not going to change.

none of this is the kind of "idpol" that the "anti-idpol left" was a reaction to. there was like a 5-6 year period where if you were "on the left" in the west you were as a rule bombarded with people talking about the world in terms of privilege. it reached peak mass between i'd say 2014-2018, and its been fading since. look around. there is now more people frothing at the mouth about "wokeness" and "cancel culture" than there are people shrilling about pronouns and privilege.

sure they still exist all around and youll see plenty if you go looking for them on twitter and college campuses, sure they are in many ways the most frustrating political opponents of communists because they call themselves "leftists" and play around freely with the rhetoric of capitalism and exploitation and class when it suits them, and among the mass of bad faith left-liberal noise there is in fact a large minority of people who are fundamentally left-liberals but nonetheless are sincere in their sentiments and misguided, which allows these kinds of left-liberals politics to penetrate into earnest organizing efforts on the backs of people who mean well but have been entirely miseducated

but it really is not that bad anymore. its like you people memory-holed what "leftism" in e.g. 2016 was really like despite this entire website being premised on attacking it. it used to be that among leftists on social media you would dependably be berated for saying that some fad sexuality like "demisexual" is a meme. you would be actually seriously "held responsible" and people would expect you to make amends for casually enjoying "reactionary media" like black metal or gangster movies. there was a huge outcry over kendrick lamar saying he liked stretch marks on women bc he wasnt allowed to comment on womens bodies. you used to reliably have your own identity interrogated before you could give any kind of opinion about issues involving any kind of group you didnt belong to. if you want to go looking for shitty circles you can still have that experience, but it is NOT ubiquitous anymore. that initial deluge of left-liberal insanity burnt out, chilled out, and a lot of people just matured and got some self awareness.

that kind of left-liberalism is still a real tendency that still holds currency in socialist circles and organizing and it should absolutely still be opposed in a principled way even when its inconveniant, but it no longer has a monopoly on the rhetoric, it just doesnt.

for all the whining around here about /leftypol/ "going soft", left twitter has become a lot more like /leftypol/ in the last few years than /leftypol/ has become like left twitter.

the most popular podcasts on or adjacent to the left – trueanon, chapo, cumtown, etc – are all to varying degrees dismissive of "idpol" and do so freely without any outrage. it is perfectly acceptable now to mock rainbow capitalism without needing to give a fuckton of qualifications to avoid being called homophobic. theres plenty of left social media cliques whose whole thing is roasting idpol grifters and it doesnt get their own socialist commitments called into question.

at a certain point you need to look around and realize that the reaction to idpol now has much more momentum than idpol does. dave chappelle has restarted his entire career to great fanfare based almost entirely on him selling himself as the brave anti-woke truth-teller, Glen Greenwald and the whole Grayzone crowd gave themselves brainworms with their anti-idpol obsession and now sound like weird marcyist Republicans half the time. astroturfed hysteria around "Critical Race Theory" is everywhere. there is a massive cottage industry in the media, online and on tv and in reporting, built around phantoms of a 2013-2018 era idpol wave that doesnt command nearly as much cultural authority as it once did.

at this point its absurd to so prominently frame your political positions around opposition to a dying fad. and at a certain point there needs to be some self reflection as to whether youre being attacked for emphasizing class politics and criticizing liberal identitarianism, or if people are just responding to you acting in a provocative and antisocial way. the former used to be common enough that the latter could be excused as a perfectly sensible reaction, but more and more i see people claim theyre being witch hunted by woketards when actually theyre just bad at expressing themselves in good faith disagreements

>>687309
>we would be using glowcоrd
absolutely not, use matrix instead

>>680431
Or you know, we just do leftism without engaging in idpol…?

>>687343
You're right. But what should we do about it? Shut down /leftypol/? Has it served its purpose?

>>686886
Fuck off. I’m a queer person and I agree with him 100%. Any exploited worker with class consciousness would agree with me.

>>687360
of course not, the idpol tide receding doesnt mean that social media isnt still complete dogshit or that being able to post anonymously has lost its value. i wish there was some way to reliably grow imageboards and other older forum types but it always seems like pissing in the wind. /leftypol/ should 100% be preserved even if only because its one of the most used chans outside of the shithole thats 4chan, and rare blessing that it happens to be a leftist chan. im just saying its retarded to pretend like /leftypol/ is still the one place on the internet where socialists can say naughty things & that were persecuted for telling the truth or something

>>687309
>D*scоrd
What fucking software did you just fucking recommend to me, you little used? I'll have you know I am the top paying FSF member, and I've been involved in numerous anti-DRM movements on my Lenovo Thinkpad, and I have over 300 confirmed freely licenced projects. I am trained in free software activism and I'm the top programmer in the entire GNU project. You are nothing to me but just another sucker to Microsoft. I will wipe your hard drive the fuck out with software freedom the likes of which has never been seen before on the internet, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with promoting that absolutely proprietary shit to me over the Internet? Think again, motherfucker. As we speak I am contacting my decentralized network of activists across the world and your IP is being traced right now so you you better prepare for the storm, noob. The storm that convinces you to wipe out the pathetic little thing you call Windows. You're fucking owned, kiddo. Proprietary software can be anywhere, anytime, and it can violate your fredom and privacy in over seven hundred ways, and that's just in your browser. Not only am I extensively experienced in convincing people to switch to Linux, I have access to the entire arsenal of CLI commands, and I will use them to their full extent to wipe your miserable operating system off the face of your hard drive, you little shit. If only you could have known what RYF certified retribution your little 'I have nothing to hide' comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn Windoze user. I will shit GNU all over you and you will drown in it. You're banned from the Church of Emacs, kiddo.