Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 21:40:47 No. 680437
cope
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 21:43:13 No. 680445
and seethe
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 22:10:33 No. 680500
No, tone policing and assorted "woke" fascism is constantly weaponized against communists.
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 22:23:43 No. 680521
>>680431 >For most people anti idpol leftism is either a stopping point on the way from the right to the left or eventually leads to tucker carlson/aimee terese/stupidpol tier "post left" nonsense which itself leads to crypto-right wing populism eventually. I've noticed that people who were MLs before all of this started have been way more consistent throughout this process because they understand that identity grievances (and they are all real grievances) run up against the capital-labor question eventually. This other stuff you described is the dirty reservoir of filthy old kooks and n00bs who either corkscrew into the post-left grotto or take their experiences and iterate on them, like a little seed that grows into a beautiful red flower.
>>680500 Anti-communists operate in bad faith and will weaponize anything if they think it's useful. I saw Agent Kochinski the other day attacking communism by saying his opponent sounded like a typical SJW. Don't expect consistency from them, and there's no need to capitulate or retreat when they try to tone police you.
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 22:24:48 No. 680524
idpol is a pretty nebullous term and you can be against overbearing wokescolding and shit and take a lefty stance on social issues, no need to confuse them
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 22:25:57 No. 680525
>>680521 I agree to both paragraphs
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 22:29:35 No. 680534
>>680431 1) Very carefully define "idpol" from a communist POV;
2) be able to distinguish it from Marxism;
3) congrats, your OP is cringe
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 22:30:27 No. 680538
identity politics isnt a new idea you fucking retard, the soviets called it bourgeoisie nationalism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeois_nationalism Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 22:31:00 No. 680540
>>680431 Its "dead" insofar it has evolved into a compulsive rejection of idpol topics to champion a limited conception of "material politics" into realizing the material struggle of these minorities puppeted by capitalists and integrating their struggle into the wider and true material and class struggle.
the correct understanding came and more or less extinctified its original carnation, but the idea of a leftist politics which rejects the commodification of identity and its usage as a tool of division against the proles is still alive and well
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 22:32:38 No. 680545
Anti-idpol is only untenable if you're a suburban white gamer. As a minority in Burgerland I have no choice but to be anti-idpol because the failure of neoliberalism will eventually be tied to "pandering to the gays and blacks destroyed the West" and be used as ammunition in all kinds of pogroms and discrimination. It's in my interest to seek working class solidarity across racial and gender lines, lest this generation of rightoid freaks gain power and try to blame their shitty lives on me.
Anonymous (Xi / Xim) 2022-01-07 (Fri) 22:42:59 No. 680562
>>680541 too based for nu-leftypol
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 22:45:30 No. 680565
>>680431 Ok. That only means western leftism as a whole is dead. Idpol is a dead end street, a poison pill. If there is nothing beyond idpol, then there is nothing at all.
so be it. Let us all perish, and China will inherit the earth.
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 22:46:20 No. 680566
idpol can be used by grifters, while class struggle can't be monetized.
Op is just telling us the grifter perspective.
>>680521 idpol is just the commodification of politics in the bourgeois political spectrum. It's gone so far that it no longer is political anymore
Real politics has nothing to do with identities, real politics is about material struggle for material goals.
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 22:49:15 No. 680571
>>680431 >The # of people who can actually stay anti idpol leftists is really limited to the few hundred people who use this site. only a few hundred people use this site so its not really the small percentage you're trying to make it out to be
>For most people anti idpol leftism is either a stopping point on the way from the right to the left or eventually leads to tucker carlson/aimee terese/stupidpol tier "post left" nonsense which itself leads to crypto-right wing populism eventually. so you're hurt because republicans don't like liberalism?cute
anti idpol has its roots in Marx
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 22:52:53 No. 680576
>>680431 >>680431 >>680431 I don’t care I just want the left to left being faggots
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 22:56:47 No. 680584
>>680571 Marx would've ridiculed the "leftists" who downplay discrimination and antagonizing and scapegoating of certain nationalities by the bourgeoisie, especially the American soys deadset on denying the existence of a black underclass perpetuated by capitalism because it hurts their imaginary Trumpen left who will somehow institute socialism in the US. So no.
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 22:57:13 No. 680585
>>680431 "Idpol" was started by Europeans who had to unite over their class, ethnic, religious, national contradictions in order to complete the settler project of America. That's where the identity "white" comes from.
Being "anti-idpol" as a Marxist just means that you're retarded and don't want to understand the material historical forces that created and shaped these "identities" in the first place. You can't just "disavow" or "reject" these principal components of the superstructure that contribute to the reproduction of the economic base built upon imperialism and neo-colonialism.
It is like thinking that we can "fix" our system by makin everyone an atheist, or vegan, just electing the "smart" leaders, or stop racism and sexism by having empty representation politics, you ignore that actual logic of the system and seek superficial solutions.
TL;DR: being "anti-idpol" as a communist just makes you a radlib with red paint.
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 23:03:31 No. 680596
>>680562 Why do I feel like you're a newfag yourself?
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 23:04:29 No. 680599
Identity politics that unite the working class shouldn't be demonized and are in fact a positive addition to any potential workers' movement. Identity politics that divide the working class should be condemned and attacked.
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 23:06:22 No. 680606
>>680431 Anti idpol is not anti sjw my dear snowflake. We call it value liberalism or value conservatism in our country when trivial political bullshit is encountered.
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 23:10:01 No. 680614
>>680584 Marx would ridicule you for thinking that idpol has anything to do with combating discrimination and scapegoating.
>>680585 satire ?
>>680599 >Identity politics that unite the working class that doesn't exist
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 23:10:30 No. 680615
>>680596 Because you're trying too hard to fit in.
Your autism score might be in the double digits too, all things considered.
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 23:11:57 No. 680617
>>680614 >that doesn't exist Yes it does
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 23:12:22 No. 680618
>>680614 >satire ? Huh? It's unironically a decent post.
>>680615 >Believes in I Q >>680599 This implies that "the working class" is one cohesive thing that doesn't have divisions and contradictions of its own.
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 23:20:49 No. 680639
>>680618 Yes it is. Those “divisions” you speak of are to be ameliorated, not exacerbated by unconstructive identity circlejerking.
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 23:22:38 No. 680644
>>680431 maybe but it's still cringe.
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 23:23:59 No. 680648
the left needs idpol to survive read settlers ethnic minorities and immigrants are the only people capable of a revolution in the western world
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 23:29:31 No. 680660
>>680617 the purpose of identities are exclusion. That can be useful when you give people a name to tell them apart, but in politics it's maximum divisiveness.
>>680618 >It's unironically a decent post. it's a reactionary inversion of reality
Radlibs are the idpol enforcers, marxist class struggle is the antithesis, and anti-idpol communism is the synthesis
>>680618 >This implies that "the working class" is one cohesive thing Yes, it's people selling their labor power to capitalists.
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 23:30:44 No. 680664
>>680652 i understand that they're a lot better than white labor forces that support fascists like trump lepen and zemmour
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 23:32:05 No. 680669
>>680648 the only people who hate idpol more than leftypol are the people whose interests you are pretending to represent
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 23:34:42 No. 680676
>>680669 good i hope more of the ""white working class"" gets angered by my truth telling, these people support fascism in every way shape and form and i cannot wait for the masses to wipe them out
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 23:35:37 No. 680682
You will not convert this board to Twitter, /r/socialism, chapo.chat, or wherever it is you came from
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 23:35:42 No. 680685
>>680676 do you think that lifting should be banned under communism or some shit?
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 23:42:52 No. 680705
>>680660 >Radlibs are the idpol enforcers, This gets it backwards, like that anon said, Europeans were the ones who even created the concept of "race" in the first place, radlibism is just a reaction.
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 23:46:53 No. 680714
>>680566 >idpol can be used by grifters, while class struggle can't be monetized. The idea that class politics is some indivisible remainder that can't be co-opted is a dangerous and false belief on the left.
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 23:49:37 No. 680719
>>680705 Not necessarily. The reaction was already there in the numerous and furious reactions to Western imperalism which has always been the highest representation of European supremacy in its socioeconomic form. The Vietnamese resistance to French, Japanese, and American imperialism (all forms of Western imperialism) did much more than putting black women in Shakespeare plays.
Radlibs are late to the game because they're precisely there to soften the crises to come.
>"Don't revolt now, because your time is coming!" >"Obama was president, ignore your decaying neighborhoods and shitty gig and service jobs!" Every complaint issued by fucktarded white natsoys is experienced at the same or worse level by the groups that internet soys think are being uplifted by neoliberalism.
No motherfuckers, you were the last to experience the disaster that is neoliberal policy. The fact that suburban whites now complain means that there is nowhere else for the market to ravage.
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 23:51:00 No. 680723
>>680566 > idpol can be used by grifters, while class struggle can't be monetized. You are extremely naive
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 23:54:23 No. 680728
>>680676 You must be wrong, because radlibs make excessive use of the concept of "race".
If only they were opposed to this inhuman practice of putting people into stereotypical boxes based on appearances.
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 23:56:45 No. 680737
>>680431 >The # of people who can actually stay anti idpol leftists is really limited to the few hundred people who use this site. Nope. Most people in my irl party are anti idpol.
Stop projecting your own situation on the rest of the world.
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 23:56:57 No. 680739
>>680728 John McWhorter is a neocon who used to work for the Manhattan Institute
Anonymous 2022-01-07 (Fri) 23:57:49 No. 680743
>>680719 Yes, radlibbery is not the only reaction, not at all, but a co-option of it, I agree. What I was trying to say however, is that it seems that a lot of people seem to have more dislike for liberal co-options against capitalism/imperialism/colonialism that they have against capitalism/imperialism/colonialism in the first place. A perfect example is how a lot of the anti land-back crowd tries to say that advocating for indigenous liberation means that you think that colonization is the "original sin", when ironically enough Christianity was brought over by colonizers in the first place.
>>680728 Bruh moment
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 00:03:09 No. 680752
>>680739 i thought he was a leftist, he was "featured" on leftypol a month ago. I have to admit i only listened to his book promotion interview and haven't gotten around to reading it. Based on the interview he gave, he seemed to make good points.
It's confusing me why a neocon would oppose the radlibs, because they shill for imperialism a lot, don't both have that in common ?
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 00:03:27 No. 680753
>>680737 >Nope. Most people in my irl party are anti idpol. Same. I'd say all of them.
>>680431 You don't understand leftypol's anti idpol so naturally you would say stupid shit like this. Tbh, a portion of leftypol doesn't understand leftypol's anti-idpol either.
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 00:06:07 No. 680757
>>680752 The culture war dominates American political discussion, any smart grifter gets into one side or another. It's harder and harder to make a living so they might as well. Imagine being a commentator and trying to stay away from making money pandering to angry suburban burgers on CRT and the pandemic. It's almost impossible.
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 00:18:25 No. 680765
>>680431 >Anti idpol leftism was a product of the mid 2010s culture war politics and could only exist, as a red version of "anti sjw" backlash against liberalism of the Obama era. There's more to the world than the West, leftist anti-idpol isn't just an internet meme elsewhere and has a much longer history going back to the 80s at least. But critique of liberal idpol in particular did perhaps become a more popular topic when the burger idpol circus started to be blasted around the world a decade or so ago.
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 00:30:07 No. 680784
>>680545 It would actually be in your interest to advocate for an ethnostate for your peoe so you don't have to I've with whute people who hate you, or even worse, have sex with YOUR women
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 00:47:44 No. 680818
>>680752 I dunno why. I don't think about them that much. But there are a lot of right-wing establishment and (objectively reactionary) liberal institutions and publications that rail against excessive wokeness from the Wall Street Journal to The Atlantic.
McWhorter and a few other American black intellectuals not on the left (Glenn Loury, Coleman Hughes) are basically repeating earlier (70s-90s) arguments from white neocons plus Thomas Sowell. They're likewise overpraised on the right for similar reasons why the mainstream liberal-left overpraises intellectuals like Ta-Nehisi Coates.
Now look at the people who McWhorter goes on panels with. Applebaum, Frum, Fukuyama, Kasparov. They're a bunch of swamp creatures and dingbats.
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 01:45:26 No. 680899
>>680784 Weak bait, sex pest
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 01:46:26 No. 680900
>>680884 By looking at the economic instantiation of these sex and class issues and addressing them.
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 01:57:01 No. 680917
>>680884 Because class politics was co-opted first – economics demands being easily divided and conquered with benefits for some – and "identity politics" was principally an attempt to save radical politics from those failures. It's also a major feature of right-wing productivism ("workers beset by parasites"). Basically, "the right is weaponizing identity politics" is an incomplete analysis because they are perfectly capable of doing it with class politics as well.
The whole class-über-alles thing engages in tempest-in-a-teapot tomfoolery. They exaggerate a small number of whiny woke professors and blow them out of proportion because it syncs up with right-wing campus whining.
It's also funny because if you go back far enough on the left, it was anarchists who thought class-only organizing was the one true jihad and they were very skeptical of identity politics. So the framing today where you have "libertarian socialist + identity politics" vs. "reformist + class centered" types is a bit strange.
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 02:00:22 No. 680921
>>680917 >The whole class-über-alles thing engages in tempest-in-a-teapot tomfoolery. Can you fucking yanks not talk on fucking riddles for once? Changing the meaning of nearly every polical word is one thing, but this takes it to a whole new level.
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 02:05:42 No. 680931
>>680917 >economics demands being easily divided and conquered with benefits for some I'm not following honestly.
Any real life example?
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 02:22:56 No. 680952
>>680931 I am the Riddler and I am destroying your Bat Cave. This is your destiny. This is the only reason for your existence now.
>>680931 The co-option, depoliticization, hollowing out, and disintegration of labor unions after they were steered into corporatist social bargaining – and which, in the U.S., was premised on sectional interests within the broader working class. So benefits (home ownership, cars, pensions; i.e. increased consumption) but they tended to be provided through employers to exclude black workers.
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 11:58:21 No. 681582
>>680540 >the correct understanding came and more or less extinctified its original carnation, but the idea of a leftist politics which rejects the commodification of identity and its usage as a tool of division against the proles is still alive and well alot more identity people moved left on economics during the early 2020s when they discovered liberalism can't work and you actually need class struggle.
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 11:59:41 No. 681583
>>680545 >implying rightoids wont just blame you anyway rightoids are pathological and their blaming scapegoats for capitalism's problems will happen no matter what the woke/academic liberal "left" does. You're misunderstanding the sources of their ideas
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 12:55:32 No. 681610
Worthless cultural analysis, like just about everything else mentioning the "post-left" bogeyman.>Shit like Charlottesville, 1/6, Christchurch, and the riots in summer of 2020 made anti idpol leftists way more sympathetic to racial/religious issues
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 13:04:03 No. 681615
>>681610 a criticism of racism as part of bourgeois superstructure and its use as a justification for increased exploitation of certain subgroups certainly should be part of Marxism
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 13:33:19 No. 681634
Both idpol and anti-idpol are two sides of the same coin. Both are used to distract people from their class interests. Complaining about idpol only leads to infighting. Idpol is of course similar, with the idea of racism etc. being at its core. However, anti-idpol generaly leads to retarded social-conservatism and crypto-fashism which is rife in this website.
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 13:36:12 No. 681635
OP is a straight cis white male, so we should ignore his ideas.
Sage !61KGLATVW. 2022-01-08 (Sat) 13:40:39 No. 681637
>The # of people who can actually stay anti idpol leftists is really limited to the few hundred people who use this site.
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 15:04:56 No. 681709
>>680431 Shitlib wokies use idpol against communists and socialists. Even BLM works now on renaming places and streets named after Karl Marx or Friedrich Engels, because Marx was according to them supposedly racist and anti-semitic, because he attacked Lassalle once in a letter in a not so nice politically incorrect fashion (he used the n-word).
However, it's impossible for anyone with a brain to agree that THE AUTHOR OF THE COMMUNIST MANIFESTO, who was actually good friends with Lassalle, was a racist or anti-semite. Anyone who does might as well go ahead and claim that communism, socialism, anti-imperialism, anti-colonialism and equal rights for everyone are inherently racist and anti-semitic.
As long as woketards act like this they must be considered enemies in the class struggle.
https://www.wien.gv.at/petition/online/PetitionDetail.aspx?PetID=c4976a0b752d456d8d6fc8868567df3b Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 15:21:30 No. 681733
>>681648 Triggered, idpoler?
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 17:36:24 No. 681925
>>681747 Thread related
Explains why you're still ghey, but now just have fewer ghey leftoid friends:
https://bugmanrevolt.wordpress.com/2021/12/09/foundations-of-virtue-socialism/ Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 18:26:58 No. 681995
>>681975 >BLM Leaders >”Marxists” Those IIRC were the founders. There is no leadership. There is a “national organization” that’s cucked out to the dems, but that’s about it.
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 21:43:36 No. 682276
>>680431 >the few hundred people who use this site yeah no
this site can't handle their shit its stupidpol but stupider
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 22:08:09 No. 682309
Not everything is idpol though. A lot of leftypol users extend idpol to mean anything even acknowledging the existence and influence of anything other than class. So there is more than just leftypol users.
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 22:29:07 No. 682324
>>680540 based and correct
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 22:30:31 No. 682328
>>682309 >we must exclude Marxist analysis reducing everything to class interests is what Marxism is all about, it is a necessary step to become effective at class struggle, it can't be done away with or skipped over.
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 22:34:38 No. 682335
>>681709 >Even BLM works now on renaming places and streets named after Karl Marx or Friedrich Engels Aside from that link, do you have any other examples of this? Most of the people I've met who support BLM are also either socialists or sympathetic to the socialism.
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 22:36:05 No. 682337
>tucker carlson/aimee terese/stupidpol
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 22:49:07 No. 682357
>>682345 Half right.
The problem is that "rightoids", this include both conservative and progressive libs, have always been idpol obsessed wierdos.
White idpol is like the original sin that snowballed into what we have today.
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 22:50:37 No. 682358
>>682328 One can acknowledge that racism exists and look at it with a class based framework; certain demographics within the proletariat have it worse than others. I don't know why you and other retards on this board think Marxism and other liberatory movements are incompatible.
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 22:58:20 No. 682372
>>682328 Class is like a catalyst that makes other issues much worse and some it caused but not entirely alone in every instance. It's not the sole cause of everything in existince that is bad in the sociopolitical world it's just the biggest one impact wise on everyone. Communism isn't some fantasy world that is perfect in every way and Marx knew that. He just wanted things to be better as do all of us.
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 23:13:38 No. 682383
>>682358 >>682372 I don't understand why you two think that class analysis (a reduction to class interests) would be in conflict with abolition of racial discrimination. You clearly see tension or conflict between class struggle and liberation from racialist society, but you are tip toeing around that like it's a sleeping dragon. I don't know why and without any further explanation my only conclusion can be that your interdiction is intended as policing against class struggle under false pretenses.
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 23:23:55 No. 682392
>>680431 I agree, I don't recall really seeing any kind of major gaffes made by campus activists since before the pandemic even. I would say 2018 was kind of the end of it, and I certainly don't remember anything cringe worthy in 2019. Also, nobody's been on campus for like two years I think. So I think the whole cringe compilation era is over.
I mean don't get me wrong, I think campus activists fucked a lot of things up and carried themselves in such a way to make onlookers unsympathetic, particularly in regard to the plight of students. But that batch of them has already gone through the system.
As for racial issues, my contention is that we need to end something like stop and frisk first and let the academics debate about the origins of blah, blah, blah later. I saw that documentary on what they are doing in Baltimore and it's terrible.
The sight of unidentified military personal rounding up demonstrators in the summer of 2020 is what brought me to this site. That, and what happened on 1/6. But mainly the summer of 2020. It snapped me out of my apathy. Sure pink haired SJWs are annoying when they shout at you, but they aren't rounding you up. Also, Crowder and the rest of right wing media were total cunts about the whole situation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8yHJsomphM The cops are also massive douche bags and are complete yahoos. They do not know what they are doing, and if they do, they're trying to fuck you up.
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 23:48:35 No. 682415
>>682345 but the point is it gives them something to focus on which is not economics. if we were still focused on OWS-era politics, we'd be winning. but we're not. every single prominent leftist is going hard on this issues that have no real relevancy.
Anonymous 2022-01-08 (Sat) 23:49:59 No. 682416
>>682415 >if we were still focused on OWS-era politics, we'd be winning Bro, it literally doesn't matter what we focus on, the media is just gonna feed their narrative to the people anyways about how we're all babyeaters. Not saying idpol isn't a problem but it's not even the main problem, which is lack of exposure and false consciousness.
Anonymous 2022-01-09 (Sun) 00:06:54 No. 682437
>>682416 and if the OWS had kept going, MAYBE we wouldn't have those problems as much. OWS is literally a water slide to Marxist economics.
Anonymous 2022-01-09 (Sun) 00:09:39 No. 682442
>>682392 Yeah I don't think the anons around here complaining that police brutality is some sort of distraction from the one-true class jihad have experience with the cops in some of these American cities. Chicago cops do drive-by shootings on Fred Hampton's grave and fairly recently operated a literal blacksite torture facility.
Anonymous 2022-01-09 (Sun) 00:17:59 No. 682452
>>682442 source? i used to live in chicago so this is of interest to me.
Anonymous 2022-01-09 (Sun) 00:35:54 No. 682464
>>682437 OWS couldn't have kept going because it got smacked down by the cops and the FBI (supervised by Obama)
Anonymous 2022-01-09 (Sun) 00:36:42 No. 682466
>>682461 >(and black people would still be getting brutalized, just at a "fair" proportion). isnt it arguable this is already happening? Race and class overlap in america
Anonymous 2022-01-09 (Sun) 00:41:06 No. 682471
>>682392 >So I think the whole cringe compilation era is over. there are still some people making cringe compilations, but its like trying to squeeze blood out of a stone. Shit like "Ben Shapiro reacts to WOKE TIKTOKS"
Anonymous 2022-01-09 (Sun) 00:41:47 No. 682472
>>682466 A significant portion of police violence against black people is explained by poverty (i.e. the discrepancy goes away if you control for income) but
only a portion of it. But more importantly, being poor and being black are also related, which is one of the reasons putting class first is so important. The main way that racism affects people is economically, e.g. by refusing people loans or the opportunity to buy a house because of their skin color. These are decidedly factors of economic class, and while they are wielded to racist ends (among others) their basic purpose is to serve ruling class interests.
Anonymous 2022-01-09 (Sun) 02:34:08 No. 682551
>>682464 if that hadn't happened, the left would have to focus on SOMETHING. and since we're excluding idpol, then…would it not be economic?
stop deflecting to points of insignificance. the main thing is that idpol = waste of time. it's literal bourgeois politics IE you can only talk about it from a place of already having a lot of societal privilege. people starving in africa or slaving away in latin america aren't wondering what their gender identity is.
Anonymous 2022-01-09 (Sun) 02:43:35 No. 682561
>>680664 you understand wrong
Anonymous 2022-01-09 (Sun) 03:08:04 No. 682612
>>680431 >Anti idpol leftism was a product of the mid 2010s culture war politics and could only exist, as a red version of "anti sjw" backlash against liberalism of the Obama era. Outside that particular context, there's no way for anti idpol leftism to survive. While there may be an audience for leftism that's less shrill and tone policing, for the most part the era of truly "anti identity" politics leftism is dead and the Trump era killed it. Shit like Charlottesville, 1/6, Christchurch, and the riots in summer of 2020 made anti idpol leftists way more sympathetic to racial/religious issues and also alot of the extreme woke tone policing actually died down and now its just rightoids complaining about muh CRT or whatever nonsense. That's why the anti sjw shit died, because the content mill dried up. <Guys, our belief system won, which is exactly why we should abandon it! ???
Anonymous 2022-01-10 (Mon) 00:31:40 No. 684235
>>682551 >people starving in africa or slaving away in latin america aren't wondering what their gender identity is. braindead take since socialism can only develop out of a higher form of capitalism, if more advanced economies bring these social changes they are therefore progressive meaning an even more advanced mode of political economy would have even more gender stuff probably
Anonymous 2022-01-10 (Mon) 00:38:10 No. 684248
k
Anonymous 2022-01-10 (Mon) 01:07:11 No. 684295
>>684245 They didn't invent idpol, they invented race.
Idpol is kind of new fenomenon. It's angela davies fault actually. She invented it by adding female and black to class.
Anonymous 2022-01-10 (Mon) 01:21:47 No. 684323
>>682357 >"rightoids", this include both conservative and progressive libs Are you saying libs are part of the right because of their capitalist economic stance? Because libs are a lot more egalitarian than what is generally considered the Right. It is strange to lump them together, that is like lumping anarchists and communists together. You can do it, but just because they're against capitalism doesn't mean they're not very different and sometimes opposed.
Anonymous 2022-01-10 (Mon) 06:59:47 No. 684830
I have a feeling that this anti-idpol thing might be a touch grass moment. Why go full idealist in either direction?
Anonymous 2022-01-10 (Mon) 08:03:44 No. 684878
>>684323 I do consider liberals to the right politically.
ConLibs I don’t see as very egalitarian at all.
They’ve relied on the southern strategy for decades.
ProgLibs enjoy the veneer of egalitarianism, but as a leftist, you should probably already know that’s a facade. They both partake in their own brand of idpol that creates the illusion there are real differences between the two ideologically.
On the bigger questions, one hand washes the other.
> that is like lumping anarchists and communists together. Lumping them together as leftist?
That’s not strange at all!
This site wouldn’t exist as it does now if that were impossible.
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 10:12:30 No. 686581
>>686572
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 11:40:07 No. 686656
>>686611 this guy is one of the more braindead leftoids on the bird app
junko !!9cfznBf./Q 2022-01-11 (Tue) 11:59:16 No. 686678
>>680431 I'll submit a thought I had very recently:
In real world political organization, what matters shouldn't be your identity or even your ideology but what sort of political program you agree with implementing and carrying out.
There is a range from very broadly sought after goals (e.g. "gib universal healthcare") to a very esoteric program (here's our 200 party planks we all agree to after the last twelve splits with the Sino-Soviet-Browderite-Cliffites). That's up to the people who come up with them.
The thing about /leftypol/ is it's not a political party so much as a discussion area, so it's possibly more difficult to create an anti idpol space where it's not organically reaffirming itself in that old way where it also wouldn't fall into reaction either as some sort of overcorrection.
Don't know what to say, I don't have a prescription for it other than I will make some initiative to read our archives from way back specifically so we might review and synthesize from whatever there is to learn, specifically of what users then said about idpol/anti-idpol/non-idpol.
junko !!9cfznBf./Q 2022-01-11 (Tue) 12:07:25 No. 686689
>>686678 >In real world political organization, what matters shouldn't be your identity or even your ideology but what sort of political program you agree with implementing and carrying out. Though I can add, there may be yet one way it is relevant that I thought of: For getting to know where your fellows are coming from. It may end up looking more diverse than you initially imagined it would.
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 12:32:56 No. 686707
>>686678 >>686689 >what sort of political program you agree with implementing and carrying out thats called tactical unity and its part of platformist anarchism
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 12:44:56 No. 686717
>>686678 >In real world political organization, what matters shouldn't be your identity or even your ideology but what sort of political program you agree with implementing and carrying out. Agree. Or for me it's even more general. I think what your ideal society looks like is the question that comes before the method. For me at the bare minimum I need to see everyone be given the resources be healthy, so people that have the view, "don't work don't eat," and etc. are people I can't agree with on any level.
>The thing about /leftypol/ is it's not a political party so much as a discussion area, so it's possibly more difficult to create an anti idpol space where it's not organically reaffirming itself in that old way where it also wouldn't fall into reaction either as some sort of overcorrection. I think anti-idpol is a stupid stance. I think the best method would be containment threads for the typical /pol/ topics. People seem to have a desire to debate those kind of topics as whenever those threads go unbanned they have the fastest PPH on the board. If the mods don't want to have to deal with that I understand, but I think people should be able to post their pro-trans/anti-trans racist/anti-racist threads. Containment threads would work best so the whole board isn't spammed with stupid braindead /pol/ threads. Or just keep it like it is. We have other topics to talk about, if we need to ban the triggering topics, so be it.
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 14:17:40 No. 686786
>>680728 >here look at this piece of literature created by a BLACK (YES YOU HEARD RIGHT HE'S BLACK) man who worked for right wing think tanks Anti-idpol "leftists" sure have a lot in common with right wingers. Do you also like Candice Owens?
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 14:21:59 No. 686788
>>686786 Black people just have to get off the Democratic plantation y'see!
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 15:26:51 No. 686828
>>686786 IDpol isn't leftism
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 16:03:49 No. 686850
>>686845 >>686847 >Leftism is dead in the water at the present time because dickhead academics have such disdain for actual working people <Identity politics is a manifestation of disdain for proles. I had not considered that. If that is indeed the motivation, it would explain so many things about identity politics.
Like idpol is the leftwing of capital, the equivalent of the right wing making up excuses why the poor deserve to suffer.
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 16:29:29 No. 686871
>>686850 Of course. Identity politics has been sponsored by major corporations since OWS for a REASON. Why the fuck do you think corps now show how "progressive" they are and behave as if they're the number one supporters of all this shit? It has completely shattered the left. It has come to a point where fascism (union of corporation/state) is regarded as "communism" by those on the right because they see that what the corporations think is important and what "leftists" think is important are the same shit.
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 16:36:46 No. 686882
>>686866 >look at these two unrelated things! ok?
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 16:38:51 No. 686886
>>686871 >It has come to a point where fascism (union of corporation/state) is regarded as "communism" by those on the right because they see that what the corporations think is important and what "leftists" think is important are the same shit. So you basically want to throw poc and queer people under the bus to appeal to /pol/ types lol.
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 16:40:54 No. 686894
>>686886 >So you basically want to throw poc and queer people under the bus to appeal to /pol/ types lol. so you're trying to smear criticism of bourgeois sponsored IDpol rather than look at it objectively?
sounds like /r/neoliberal is more your style
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 16:44:12 No. 686899
>>686887 ok then go ahead and provide evidence that the people on the top are the same people on the bottom
>>686894 I'm looking at it objectively, why would a supposed leftist care about what fascists think of us?
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 16:45:00 No. 686900
>>686899 >that the people on the top are the same people on the bottom never said they were
cope
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 16:45:40 No. 686903
>>686899 >I'm looking at it objectively, why would a supposed leftist care about what fascists think of us? what are you even on about schizo?
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 16:49:02 No. 686910
>>686900 so they are unrelated pictures, got it
>cope ok meme kid
>>686903 are you illiterate? you brought up fascists first.
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 16:51:45 No. 686912
>>686910 >so they are unrelated pictures, got it so you're resorting to
>anything that counters IDpol is unrelated got it
>ok meme kid outs himself as a boomer
LMAO
>are you illiterate? you brought up fascists first wasn't me try again
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 17:16:12 No. 686950
>>686871 this criticizes class collaborationism
>>686886 and this is following the typical neoliberal script of responding to criticism with smear tactics.
Obviously the solution against discrimination is empowerment and not submission to corporate dictates. The question on my mind is whether Id-pol is inherently a type of neo-liberal culture, and i'm leaning increasingly towards that answer being yes
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 17:22:19 No. 686960
>>686950 is it really a problem if neo liberalism over laps with anti racism so long as republikkkans and pol tards don't like it?
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 17:24:06 No. 686964
>>686912 there might be a post under all these meme arrows
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 17:35:36 No. 686973
>>686871 >Identity politics has been sponsored by major corporations since OWS for a REASON. Idpol was a thing that corporations hijacked for good PR like any other cultural trend.
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 17:45:44 No. 686987
>>684245 Settler colonialism started much earlier than that though. The Spanish in the 16th century. Their justifications were a rudimentary predecessor founded on Christianity, but were clearly a spiritual predecessor to race theories looking at their utility.
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 18:13:59 No. 687031
>>686828 Anti-idpol very obviously is motivated by idpol sentiments of whites and/or cis-men and/or heterosexuals. Other forms of oppression, that can be argued stem from capitalism, are also important and are clearly linked to identity traits other than class. These forms of oppression are also relevant to "leftists" and the usual response by "anti-idpol" communists to that is to either woefully ignore or deny these other forms of oppression by pedantically emphasizing their origin in class struggle, which is already obvious, but in fact doesn't lead to these other forms of oppression becoming irrelevant or non-existent. While liberal idpol has an ill conceived understanding of the issues at hand and proposes the wrong solutions, Marxist intersectionality does have a proper understanding of them and proposes the right solutions as well. As I said, the only reason why you would oppose addressing these issues, which would inevitably lead to speaking in terms of identity other than class, is because you are probably a white heterosexual cis-male and share the same sentiment with bigoted right wingers, who are white heterosexual cis-men.
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 18:16:25 No. 687033
>>686847 >Nowadays people associate socialism/communism/marxism/anarchism with tiktoker alt-sexual "degenerates" (for lack of a better word) and not just "traitors" as was previously the case due to all the brainwashing throughout the 20th century. That sounds like an improvement tbh
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 18:20:47 No. 687037
>>687033 It's also not true. Communists 100 years ago were often said to have "loose morals," were anti-Christian, and lived unconventional lifestyles such as having sex before marriage. Also during the heyday of the communist movement in the U.S., was closely associated with the black struggle during an era of rigid Apartheid. I learned an interesting fact recently that one of the communist parties that the CPUSA has historically had close ties with is the South African Communist Party because the parties consider their conditions to be similar.
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 18:26:07 No. 687041
>>686960 >capitalism is the solution to racism meanwhile in reality capitalism is the cause of racism
i grow ever more tired of your dishonesty
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 18:27:15 No. 687043
>>687031 No it’s not.
They push white idpol if that were the case.
The argument is only that class is the pot that all this other identity shit is boiling in, and if you don’t start there you have missed the point.
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 18:28:07 No. 687045
>>687037 And "anti idpol" seethers were historically glowies like Orwell who complained about sandal wearers and feminists
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 18:29:55 No. 687046
>>687031 >Anti-idpol very obviously is motivated by idpol sentiments of whites and/or cis-men and/or heterosexuals thats a whole lot of conjecture, but regardless, why does the race, gender and sexual orientation of the people who these sentiments are coming from matter?
>Other forms of oppression, that can be argued stem from capitalism, are also important and are clearly linked to identity traits other than class no one denies this, in fact this is even more motivation to do away with capitalism.
>These forms of oppression are also relevant to "leftists" and the usual response by "anti-idpol" communists to that is to either woefully ignore or deny these other forms of oppression by pedantically emphasizing their origin in class struggle but what you're describing here isn't reality. what is reality is saying that this oppression is a result of capitalism and will only be done away with at the abolition of capitalism, to do anything else is at best redundant and at worse a distraction.
>As I said, the only reason why you would oppose addressing these issues, which would inevitably lead to speaking in terms of identity other than class, yes distracting the working class with IDpol rather then class politics delays revolution.
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 18:31:20 No. 687048
>>687041 >meanwhile in reality capitalism is the cause of racism racsim has always existed where POC's are not property in charge capitalism or not.
and will stay that way under your hetronormative brocialism
kill the white supremacist in your mind
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 18:32:18 No. 687051
>>687048 >racsim has always existed capitalist realism
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 18:44:04 No. 687064
>>687046 >why does the race, gender and sexual orientation of the people who these sentiments are coming from matter? Because the societal constellation that constitutes the oppression based on race, sex and sexuality (as examples) simultaneously has a demographic that collectively benefits in each of those domains or are treated as on top, as the center. Many people have grown used to a certain culture that has placed that demographic at the top or at the center and when attempting to change said culture, we are met with a backlash reaction, because said demographic sees their power slip away or believes what has been is natural and to do away with it is unnatural. They have the tendency to lash out in response to addressing and changing this societal constellation.
I agree. Which is why I also place class first, but I don't advocate for "anti-idpol" whatsoever and think "idpol" should be engaged with it, because said demographics are suffering under it in the meantime and we ourselves can contribute to that suffering with our own actions. Even as fellow comrades.
I'm describing reality actually.
What you are downplaying here has been a core part of other people's lives all their lives. i don't see it "as a distraction," it's harm we have to address as well.
Doing away with capitalism enables us to do away with these other forms of oppression, but doing away with capitalism alone doesn't end these forms of oppression.
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 18:44:17 No. 687065
>>687050 The Wikipedia page doesn't say that though
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 18:44:43 No. 687067
>>687052 Not that anon, but class has always been a greater factor in racism.
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 18:48:06 No. 687075
>>687031 This post is scapegoating the masses for problems caused by capitalism. Discrimination is a feature of class society. The enduring solution to Discrimination is increasing the power of victims to the point where any attempt at discrimination is frustrated easily. But that line of thinking is incompatible with the enforcers of class society which requires universal subjugation.
The only intersection that's going on here, is with neoliberalism. Slowly but surely identity politics is revealing it self as yet another vector of oppression.
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 18:56:05 No. 687085
>>687064 NTA, but why are you even arguing when you agree that class needs to be put first.
Idpol IS politics based entirely on identity and is a liberal construct.
This apparently is a difference of definition.
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 18:58:22 No. 687089
>>687078 Seems to me that the cause of the split was because they wanted to do electoralism, and the "urr middle class hippie bad" is the cherry on top. This text actually mainly advocates against communist orgs partaking in porky elections.
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 19:06:00 No. 687095
>>687089 No, the cause of the split was that Woodhull was a grifter that wanted to use the International as her own hobby horse.
> Meanwhile, as the Presidential elections approached, the cloven hoof showed itself – namely, that the International should serve in the election of – Madame Woodhull! >Apropos. In article signed W. West, in Woodhull's, etc., journal, March 2, 1872, one reads: >"The issue of the 'Appeal' of Section 12 to the English-speaking citizens of the United States in August last was a new departure in the history of the International, and has resulted in the recognition by the General Council of Political Equality and Social Freedom of both sexes alike, and of the essential political character of the work before us." Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 19:12:23 No. 687098
>>687095 > Woodhull, etc., journal, March 2, 1872. Under the title, "The Coming Combination Convention", the statement: >"There is a proposition under consideration by the representatives of the various reformatory elements of the country looking to a grand consolidated convention to beheld in this city in May next, during Anniversary week…. Indeed, if this convention in May acts wisely, who can say that the fragments of the defunct Democratic party will come out from them and take part in the proposed convention…. Every body of radical everywhere in the United States should, as soon as the call is made public, take immediate steps to be represented in it." (Apropos. The Woodhull journal, I can't find the date, comforts the spiritist sections with the though of telling the General Council to go to the devil.)
>Woodhull, etc., journal, April 6, 1872: >"Every day the evidence that the convention called for the 9 and 10 May by representatives of the various reforms… is to be a spontaneous uprising of the people increases in volume." National Women Suffrage Association supplements this:
>"This Convention will… consider the nominations for President and Vice-President of the United States." >Ditto under the title: >"The Party of the People to secure and maintain human rights, to be inaugurated in the United States in May 1872." >The Appeal was headed by the signature: >Victoria C. Woodhull, followed by Theodore H. Banks, R. W. Hume (Banks one of the founded of the Counter Council). In this Appeal: the convention will consider "nominations for President and Vice-President of the United States". Specially invited are: >"Labor, land, peace, and temperance reformers, and Internationals and Women Suffrages – including all the various suffrage associations – as well as all others who believe the time has come when the principles of eternal justice and human equality should be carried into our halls of legislation." >Woodhull, etc., Weekly, April 13, 1872. The >Presidency dodge is presented ever more clearly. This time, for a change: >"… Internationals, and other labor reformers – the friends of peace, temperance, and education, and by all those who believe that the time has come to carry the principles of true morality and religion into the State House, the Court, and the Market Place." >Under the title: "The Party of the People, etc.", a new Appeal, always with Victoria C. Woodhull at the head, followed by the chief scamps of the Counter Council, Th. H. Banks, R. W. Hume, G. R. Allen, William West, G. W. Maddox (the subsequent president of the Apollo meeting), J. T. Elliot (the English secretary of the Counter Council), T. Miller (delegate of French Section 2). >Woodhull, etc., Weekly (it isn't called Journal), April 20, 1872. Continuation of the same dodge. The list grows, always headed by V. C. Woodhull. (There are also "Honorables" among them.)
>Woodhull, etc., Weekly, April 17, 1827 [1872]. Continuation of the same ballyhoo. (Begins to print the list of delegates.) >Woodhull, etc., Weekly, May 4, 1872. Continuation of the dodge. (Constant reprinting of same and of enlarged lists.) >Woodhull, etc., Weekly, May 25, 1872. At last (Apollo Hall scandal, May 9, 10, 11), Woodhull for President of the United States, F. Douglass for Vice-President. (Maddox of Counter Council, president of the convention, first day.) >Laughingstock of New York and United States. >The rest, officials of the Counter Council: John T. Elliot, vice-president, G. R. Allen, secretary (and member of Committee on Resolutions and Platform). In the latter committee, Th. Banks (one of the five founders of the Counter Council, November 19, 1871). Also Mrs. Maria Huleck on one of the committees. In the Central National Committee of New York there figure: G. R. Allen, Th. H. Banks (next to Colonel Blood, member of Section 12 and lover of Victoria), J. B. Davis. >Breakup of the Counter Council. >Section 2 (French) removes Laugrand (until then the French secretary of the Counter Council) as delegate. They accuse the fellow "of using the organization for political purposes, and as a sort of adjunct to the free-love branch of the women's rights party…. Citizen Millot" (he proposed the withdrawl of Section 2 from the Counter Council, which was accepted) "stated upon the introduction of the Resolution that only three sections – 9 (Claflin), 12 (Woodhull), and 35 – were represented in the Apollo Hall 'odds and ends' convention, by scheming men for political purposes, and that the delegation in the said convention pretending to act for the Federal Council was a spurious one and self-appointed." (But the Federal Counter Council did not repudiate them.) (The World, May 13, 1872.)
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 19:45:32 No. 687134
>>687064 >Because the societal constellation that constitutes the oppression based on race, sex and sexuality (as examples) simultaneously has a demographic that collectively benefits in each of those domains or are treated as on top, as the center. Many people have grown used to a certain culture that has placed that demographic at the top or at the center and when attempting to change said culture, we are met with a backlash reaction, because said demographic sees their power slip away or believes what has been is natural and to do away with it is unnatural. They have the tendency to lash out in response to addressing and changing this societal constellation. ok this is very anti marxist. Power is held by the ruling class based on their material asserts not hereditary traits associated with their personhood.
What you're describing is closer to the feudal concept of divine right of kings but twists to be some weird racialist ideology.
>I agree. Which is why I also place class first, but I don't advocate for "anti-idpol" whatsoever and think "idpol" should be engaged with it, because said demographics are suffering under it in the meantime and we ourselves can contribute to that suffering with our own actions. Even as fellow comrades. your logic doesn't follow.
if you put class first why are you wasting your time with IDpol?
>I'm describing reality actually what you're describing exists solely in your head.what is reality is saying that this oppression is a result of capitalism and will only be done away with at the abolition of capitalism, to do anything else is at best redundant and at worse a distraction.
>What you are downplaying here has been a core part of other people's lives all their lives what is that exactly?
>i don't see it "as a distraction," it's harm we have to address as well. we do address it with Marxism, not IDpol
>Doing away with capitalism enables us to do away with these other forms of oppression, but doing away with capitalism alone doesn't end these forms of oppression. no one said it did.
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 19:47:00 No. 687138
>>687098 >>687095 >>687089 And yes, that is what idpol leads to: a massive liberal fixation on identity that leads to hucksters hobby horsing.
In this case, it was bourgeois electoralism.
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 20:25:07 No. 687180
>>687134 >Power is held by the ruling class based on their material asserts not hereditary traits associated with their personhood. >What you're describing is closer to the feudal concept of divine right of kings but twists to be some weird racialist ideology. .. No, very clearly we can tell that the societal constellation, which is the result of capitalism, has favored some demographics over others. Power does not only come in the form of material assets, but is also expressed in culture. Therein lies another dimension of power that oppresses people or benefits people, who don't own the means of production privately.
It isn't and that's just pure egotism. Aiding people in their struggle with those secondary forms of oppression can attract them to the communist cause, you can alleviate their suffering in that regard and you can formulate further theories to dismantle said oppression for after the fall of capitalism, for which we both agree doesn't happen solely because capitalism is gone. Additionally, bigoted socialists can turn away those people. I've asked here before how they would do away with the other forms oppression after establishing socialism, and I didn't receive any good answers and the bigotry on here, be it misogynistic, homophobic or problematic in regards to racism shows me that self-avowed communists can still pose an issue.
Then obviously we will have to address the subject of dismantling the secondary forms of oppression additionally.
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 20:35:35 No. 687191
>>680694 Yeah, American blacks are pretty much fucked.
The libs are filling you with candy and turning you into a big pinata for the end of America party and at least a portion of you seem cool with this. They'll use their news and academia and movies and crypto commercials to suck your cocks and sing your praises until the white population is so fucking sick of it that there's a violent backlash.
I don't want to ever see a race war in my life but its what they're working towards. I swear its like a card they keep up their sleeve and threaten to play at critical moments (see: pic related)
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 20:37:15 No. 687195
>>687180 >No, very clearly we can tell that the societal constellation thats not true but at least you're not hiding your opposition to marxism
>capitalism, has favored some demographics over others no one denies this.
>Power does not only come in the form of material assets again the position wasn't that power *only* comes from material asserts but the material asserts are where power is derived from.
>but is also expressed in culture. Therein lies another dimension of power that oppresses people or benefits people, who don't own the means of production privately again it is expressed in culture by those who have a certain degree of material asserts not merely some hereditary traits
ok why not
>Aiding people in their struggle with those secondary forms of oppression can attract them to the communist cause no one disagrees however this isn't an excuse for IDpol
>you can alleviate their suffering in that regard and you can formulate further theories to dismantle said oppression for after the fall of capitalism marxism isn't about alleviating suffering under capitalism
>I've asked here before how they would do away with the other forms oppression after establishing socialism, and I didn't receive any good answers and the bigotry on here, be it misogynistic, homophobic or problematic in regards to racism shows me that self-avowed communists can still pose an issue. maybe you should read some theory then. Marx's concept of base and superstructure should answer your questions
half of your posts have been arguing against points no one has made also you were unable to address:
your logic doesn't follow.
if you put class first why are you wasting your time with IDpol?
>I'm describing reality actually what is that exactly?
>i don't see it "as a distraction," it's harm we have to address as well. we do address it with Marxism, not IDpol
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 20:55:08 No. 687208
>>687205 one thread does not a raid make
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 21:06:09 No. 687217
>>686866 This meme is funny to me because the extent of my political involvement (demonstrations and so forth) around 2011-2012 were with the gay rights movement and not Occupy, which didn't particularly interest me.
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 21:15:06 No. 687224
It's cool being treated like a scapegoat for the left's failures, though. Keep up the good work, guys!
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 21:43:29 No. 687258
>>687253
junko !!9cfznBf./Q 2022-01-11 (Tue) 21:54:31 No. 687275
>>686847 >People here even refuse to create a telegram channel because it's considered a "fascist" platform or whatever I proposed it in the congress Matrix a couple weeks or so ago and the main objection was that the app exposed your phone number by default, not that it's a "fascist platform".
junko !!9cfznBf./Q 2022-01-11 (Tue) 21:57:00 No. 687278
>>686717 >I think the best method would be containment threads for the typical /pol/ topics. The key here would be enforcement of the "no bad faith argumentation" rule + organic participation from people informed on the topics
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 22:00:44 No. 687286
>>687253 >Why? Simple. You killed our movement in the 1940s. We will kill your threads. you did that yourselves
>>687275 >>686847 use xmpp you idiots
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 22:01:36 No. 687289
>>687253 >You killed our movement in the 1940s. We will kill your threads.
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 22:06:50 No. 687302
>>687253 >existing communist states like China
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 22:09:44 No. 687306
>>687253
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 22:11:04 No. 687309
>>686847 Matrix is awful. That kind of software veganism is not conductive to anything but hipsterism and misplaced elitism.
If we truly wanted to reach out to people we would be using Discоrd but anon will oppose it on culture war grounds.
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 22:18:13 No. 687328
>>686871 > Identity politics has been sponsored by major corporations since OWS for a REASON. Why the fuck do you think corps now show how "progressive" they are and behave as if they're the number one supporters of all this shit? This edges a bit too much towards conspiratorial thinking. It doesn't need to be that complicated.
More, dedicated customers = more, reliable profit, principally.
It's the same reason there are chinlet coffee companies now too. Companies invest in PR so that customers will attach themselves to these companies as "supporters" or "stans" as a parasocial relation with some bodyless Lovecraftian horror.
The second benefit is a psychic balm on alienation, it makes people feel like they're "doing something" while only reinforcing the real source of their pain. Capitalism recuperates problematic elements, who knew?
Liberal idpol sucks about as much ass as reactionary idpol,
Like all liberal struggles for liberation.It aims to only address secondary contradictions while either ignoring or re-enforcing the primary contradiction of Class society
Counterrevolutionary intelligence services DID latch onto the specific liberation movements as a way to undermine the left, but those movements already existed, and were rejected by the US Communist left.
>>687048 Racism in its modern incarnation is a hangover of Race Science, an invention used to justify the
trans-Atlantic slave trade because slavery used to have a religious basis (non-Christians could be enslaved, if you converted you were to be freed), and the genocidal colonization of native land in the New World. It's a historical phenomenon that can be overcome.
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 22:24:50 No. 687343
youre completely correct and youre right to say it
>>680500 >>680565 >>680558 >>680545 missing the point. liberals being retarded idealists and moralists is obviously not going to change and right now that usually includes a lot of "idpol" language. people taking their own and other peoples social identities, even when theyre somewhat nebulous and circumstantial, is also not going to change.
none of this is the kind of "idpol" that the "anti-idpol left" was a reaction to. there was like a 5-6 year period where if you were "on the left" in the west you were as a rule bombarded with people talking about the world in terms of privilege. it reached peak mass between i'd say 2014-2018, and its been fading since. look around. there is now more people frothing at the mouth about "wokeness" and "cancel culture" than there are people shrilling about pronouns and privilege.
sure they still exist all around and youll see plenty if you go looking for them on twitter and college campuses, sure they are in many ways the most frustrating political opponents of communists because they call themselves "leftists" and play around freely with the rhetoric of capitalism and exploitation and class when it suits them, and among the mass of bad faith left-liberal noise there is in fact a large minority of people who are fundamentally left-liberals but nonetheless are sincere in their sentiments and misguided, which allows these kinds of left-liberals politics to penetrate into earnest organizing efforts on the backs of people who mean well but have been entirely miseducated
but it really is not that bad anymore. its like you people memory-holed what "leftism" in e.g. 2016 was really like despite this entire website being premised on attacking it. it used to be that among leftists on social media you would dependably be berated for saying that some fad sexuality like "demisexual" is a meme. you would be actually seriously "held responsible" and people would expect you to make amends for casually enjoying "reactionary media" like black metal or gangster movies. there was a huge outcry over kendrick lamar saying he liked stretch marks on women bc he wasnt allowed to comment on womens bodies. you used to reliably have your own identity interrogated before you could give any kind of opinion about issues involving any kind of group you didnt belong to. if you want to go looking for shitty circles you can still have that experience, but it is NOT ubiquitous anymore. that initial deluge of left-liberal insanity burnt out, chilled out, and a lot of people just matured and got some self awareness.
that kind of left-liberalism is still a real tendency that still holds currency in socialist circles and organizing and it should absolutely still be opposed in a principled way even when its inconveniant, but it no longer has a monopoly on the rhetoric, it just doesnt.
for all the whining around here about /leftypol/ "going soft", left twitter has become a lot more like /leftypol/ in the last few years than /leftypol/ has become like left twitter.
the most popular podcasts on or adjacent to the left – trueanon, chapo, cumtown, etc – are all to varying degrees dismissive of "idpol" and do so freely without any outrage. it is perfectly acceptable now to mock rainbow capitalism without needing to give a fuckton of qualifications to avoid being called homophobic. theres plenty of left social media cliques whose whole thing is roasting idpol grifters and it doesnt get their own socialist commitments called into question.
at a certain point you need to look around and realize that the reaction to idpol now has much more momentum than idpol does. dave chappelle has restarted his entire career to great fanfare based almost entirely on him selling himself as the brave anti-woke truth-teller, Glen Greenwald and the whole Grayzone crowd gave themselves brainworms with their anti-idpol obsession and now sound like weird marcyist Republicans half the time. astroturfed hysteria around "Critical Race Theory" is everywhere. there is a massive cottage industry in the media, online and on tv and in reporting, built around phantoms of a 2013-2018 era idpol wave that doesnt command nearly as much cultural authority as it once did.
at this point its absurd to so prominently frame your political positions around opposition to a dying fad. and at a certain point there needs to be some self reflection as to whether youre being attacked for emphasizing class politics and criticizing liberal identitarianism, or if people are just responding to you acting in a provocative and antisocial way. the former used to be common enough that the latter could be excused as a perfectly sensible reaction, but more and more i see people claim theyre being witch hunted by woketards when actually theyre just bad at expressing themselves in good faith disagreements
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 22:29:14 No. 687352
>>680431 Or you know, we just do leftism without engaging in idpol…?
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 22:33:08 No. 687360
>>687343 You're right. But what should we do about it? Shut down /leftypol/? Has it served its purpose?
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 22:44:50 No. 687375
>>686886 Fuck off. I’m a queer person and I agree with him 100%. Any exploited worker with class consciousness would agree with me.
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 22:44:59 No. 687376
>>687360 of course not, the idpol tide receding doesnt mean that social media isnt still complete dogshit or that being able to post anonymously has lost its value. i wish there was some way to reliably grow imageboards and other older forum types but it always seems like pissing in the wind. /leftypol/ should 100% be preserved even if only because its one of the most used chans outside of the shithole thats 4chan, and rare blessing that it happens to be a leftist chan. im just saying its retarded to pretend like /leftypol/ is still the one place on the internet where socialists can say naughty things & that were persecuted for telling the truth or something
Anonymous 2022-01-11 (Tue) 22:57:55 No. 687389
>>687309 >D*scоrd What fucking software did you just fucking recommend to me, you little used? I'll have you know I am the top paying FSF member, and I've been involved in numerous anti-DRM movements on my Lenovo Thinkpad, and I have over 300 confirmed freely licenced projects. I am trained in free software activism and I'm the top programmer in the entire GNU project. You are nothing to me but just another sucker to Microsoft. I will wipe your hard drive the fuck out with software freedom the likes of which has never been seen before on the internet, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with promoting that absolutely proprietary shit to me over the Internet? Think again, motherfucker. As we speak I am contacting my decentralized network of activists across the world and your IP is being traced right now so you you better prepare for the storm, noob. The storm that convinces you to wipe out the pathetic little thing you call Windows. You're fucking owned, kiddo. Proprietary software can be anywhere, anytime, and it can violate your fredom and privacy in over seven hundred ways, and that's just in your browser. Not only am I extensively experienced in convincing people to switch to Linux, I have access to the entire arsenal of CLI commands, and I will use them to their full extent to wipe your miserable operating system off the face of your hard drive, you little shit. If only you could have known what RYF certified retribution your little 'I have nothing to hide' comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn Windoze user. I will shit GNU all over you and you will drown in it. You're banned from the Church of Emacs, kiddo.
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