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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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File: 1641780873843.jpg (8.32 KB, 264x191, samefag.jpg)

 No.684411[View All]

Imageboards have a very long history of sticking "-fag" as a suffix on something to refer to certain kinds of people: drawfag, samefag, stormfag, gayfag, etc. It's very much a part of our tradition, but sometimes traditions change. Is this a convention that we should follow as an imageboard?

There have been arguments for and against this linguistic convention probably as far back as it existed. It is widely adopted on imageboards and off them, but we are a specific case with specific aims. Should we not critically evaluate how we conduct ourselves on this and other questions of communication? What is the function of using -fag or other similar terms? What effects does it have? Does it serve and/or hinder our purposes (it could do both in different ways)?

What do you say, /leftypol/? Let's talk about this.
114 posts and 11 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.685095

>>685092
hacktivism emerged after 4chan did anon, like several years after the fact lmao
"Anonymous" the hacking collective was a co-optation of the already-existing idea of the anonymous collection of 4chan, which it was outlived by even!

 No.685121

File: 1641820000111.png (129 KB, 1569x427, 1620627073223.png)

It always has been quite depraved, though, 4chan. It's time to admit it so that this romantic illusion can be dispelled and people can mature a little. The infantile, kiddy rebellion of the petty bourgeois teenager of libertarian persuasion transforms into the vicious cruelty of the chinlet chinletd.

 No.685126

>>685121
>The infantile, kiddy rebellion of the petty bourgeois teenager of libertarian persuasion transforms into the vicious cruelty of the chinlet chinletd.
Very, very true.

 No.685132

>>685121
I tend to agree, and find the fetishization of "chan culture" kinda weird. /leftypol/ was always pretty divergent from the idea of chan culture overall, both denouncing its rightwards turn and its grillpilled-to-liberal origins.

 No.685272


 No.685338

>>684919
>internet food-chain
Haha someone should make an attempt at this food-chain. It's easy to determine the absolute bottom, but who would be the higher ups and where would /leftypol/ fall under?

 No.685403

>>684411
it's a convention which should generally be eschewed as part of a conscious distancing from other imageboards. on arriving on /leftypol/ the 4chan user should be made aware that they're not in kansas anymore. any argument about whether the term is offensive or not is irrelevant when compared to asking directly: what's the social signal we're sending here? 4chan-derived or independently-developed imageboard culture.

(but really it's not used enough here to be relevant. so the main practical suggestion is: when you see a bad post which also uses the -fag suffix, take note that you can probably have fun by insulting the poster for using it in addition to dismantling their argument.)

>>684444
>Firstly it filters out the sensitive crybabies who care more about political correctness than political power (this is a whole topic unto itself frankly).
the same is true for much of the instinct towards keeping it - to appeal to oversensitive imageboard crybabies.
as /leftypol/ is irrelevant, the idea we're reclaiming it is laughable. (especially when contrasted with people who call themselves fags - they're used in a different kind of way.)
the third case is the best argument, but doesn't come up that often, and when it does will also often be accompanied by bad arguments. anyone who goes "um, fag is a slur??" is going to be told to kill themselves for being a newfag about 20 times before someone comes along and possibly makes the "so you see, it's actually socially constructed" argument.

>>684713
the real debate is whether to conceptualize /leftypol/, as you do, as just one part of an overarching community based only on their sharing of a common user interface.
put another way: it's not a matter of trying to make 4chan not say -fag because saying -fag is wrong so much as a matter of not saying -fag to make clear that this isn't 4chan. (which is the justification typically used by other imageboards that discourage saying -fag)

>>685075
biggest faggot ITT

>>685079
>so, is there any kind of modern replacement which can be made to take the same place as -fag while reflecting the modern condition of chans?
the unsatisfying drop-in replacement would be "friend", which has the fun combination of annoying kids who wish they were on /b/ before it was just porn while also being a reference to decade+ old wordfilters.

which, for such a long post, is a rather rude short answer. but that's the nature of the internet today, that's why it makes a good replacement - it's not well thought out, rooted in deep conditions, etc, it's trivial content slotted in because it'll provoke a response. it would be excessive to offer much development beyond that.

>>685338
the top would be an abyssal puke pool of twitter-reddit-discord interaction with disconcertingly frequent chunks of ex-somethingawful users floating in the broth

 No.685435

>>685403
>the top would be an abyssal puke pool of twitter-reddit-discord interaction with disconcertingly frequent chunks of ex-somethingawful users floating in the broth
This is the best what the internet has to offer? Really?

 No.685463

>>685435
it's not the best, but it eats everyone else. the humans of the food chain.

 No.685467

>>685403
i think calling someone fren instead of fag as a way to piss off image board retards is like the best and only answer as to why you should do it. So much so that I will start doing it fren.

 No.685472

>>684606
/thread

 No.685654

>>684631
>Implying half of you arent glowies too

 No.685782


 No.685804

>>684532
>Also /siberia/ isn't a leftist /b/, it's just a generic /b/
The (underage) posters there - and in all the sideboards, not just /siberia/ - are very insistent on the boards not being about leftism if you bring this up.

I mean what's the point then? Sometimes I wonder if posters and the staff see leftypol as a place for lefty wankery or rather they see it as their online club house.

 No.685841

>>685403
>any argument about whether the term is offensive or not is irrelevant when compared to asking directly: what's the social signal we're sending here? 4chan-derived or independently-developed imageboard culture.
Several posts have made this same argument ITT but everyone who is for it ignores it and keeps pretending it's about the former point.

 No.685844

>>685079
>so, is there any kind of modern replacement which can be made to take the same place as -fag while reflecting the modern condition of chans?
There doesn't need to be one. Not fag, not anon, not comrade. I do not care about board culture anymore.

 No.685972

>Is this a convention that we should follow as an imageboard?
Im pretty sure most people here already dont do this anymore
I dont care about what language people use, the board is pretty insular and lefties already have an internal drive to change their language and bahaviour if its obviously damaging in wider normal society. See the wordfilter filtering uyghur to uyghur.
Be the change you want to see. People have been saying "drawfriend" for years at this point on here.

 No.685974

>>685972
ive been had by the eternal wisdom of the wordfilter

 No.686078

I don't think "fag" has generally referred to a gay person in like… 20 years. It's used in that fashion sometimes, but those instances are pretty few and far between. On imageboards it's usually used to describe a person in a specific context (ex: drawfag being an artist) or someone's that's whiny and annoying.

also this >>684430

 No.686523

>>685403
>the same is true for much of the instinct towards keeping it - to appeal to oversensitive imageboard crybabies.
This is a false equivalence. Crybabies are the people who complain about others' speech. This is not the same as simply speaking, and the instinct "towards keeping it", i.e. to speak as you're used to, is simply not comparable to changing your ways to appease the aforementioned crybabies.

In a sane word, some posters will use the "-fag" suffix, some will use "-friend" (just like some may use "-man", and others "-person") and neither will derail away from meaningful topics into 133-reply-long discussions (134 now, I guess) bitching about the other.

And the benefit of filtering the wreckers who would start those discussions should be obvious, the only consideration should be whether it's practical. (It ultimately is, but obviously not because it acts as some kind of warding spell keeping them away. Chans are open to everyone, and particularly sensitive to spamming, the only thing stopping anyone from flooding you with complaints is their free time. It's practical because giving up isn't. The game of language policing is iterated. Yielding only shows the tactic is effective and encourages further attempts. What discourages them is not any particular term, but rather never ever budging when they swarm to complain and "correct" you.)

 No.686532

>>684411
Shut the fuck up glowie faggot

 No.686540

File: 1641892563591.gif (20.96 KB, 1169x823, sig107.gif)

>>686523
> i.e. to speak as you're used to, is simply not comparable to changing your ways to appease the aforementioned crybabies.
except of course that it is, that when you're told that you speak in a way that reveals you don't fit in, that you're tumblr or twitter or reddit or whatever, you're being chastised for speaking as you're used to.

your conception of the entire situation is wrongheaded. like many others you're mentally trapped by imagining that the problem people have with "-fag" is that "fag" is offensive, and that an outside group of people are trying to move words around because they're offended. a position that's wrong, but worse is embarrassingly dated (so very, very, pre-2015. remember SRS?) in its conception of swarms of people being out there to "get" you and your in-group signals. nobody is afraid of the word fag. you aren't "filtering wreckers", you're signalling. it's all signalling. you'll get up on the pulpit in defence of speaking naturally for the fagfags, but will you do it for a casual "problematic"? i have my doubts - that's an outgroup signal.

 No.686543

>>685132
>/leftypol/ was always pretty divergent from the idea of chan culture overall, both denouncing its rightwards turn and its grillpilled-to-liberal origins.
lol what? people here will die on the hill for their right to say uyghur and fag. just look at the replies in this thread, full of people desperately wanting to look cool on the internet. god forbid those evil /pol/yps think we're SJWs! they'll make fun of us and memes about us! :(

 No.686546

File: 1641892950000.jpg (199.96 KB, 1080x1030, ntyrys3k21w51.jpg)


 No.686547

>>686523
>the instinct "towards keeping it", i.e. to speak as you're used to
<going to the supermarket
>"thanks cashierfag!"
<someone cuts you off in traffic
>"watch where you're going uyghur!"
<playing a new game with friends
>"haha, I'm such a newfag at this! you'll have to teach me the rules."
nobody talks in real life like they do on the internet. in fact, when I see anons write uyghuruyghuruyghur over and over, or fagfagfag, that just makes me think they're a repressed bitch in real life, and once they get on the internet they can "feel free" and be the I-don't-give-a-fuck badass that they wished they were.

 No.686570

>>686540
I mean, yes, if some idiot makes a 138 (139 now) reply thread about whether we should be collectively speaking in a particular way, I might in fact drive by and tell him to drop that shit.

You are making the mistake of assuming I came here to argue about the "fag", when I'm actually here to argue about meta-level principles.

(And assuming that people somehow stopped pushing newer and newer "inclusive" terminology is increasingly deluded. It's not just that you must be completely detached from reality not to encounter it. It's also that if you genuinely are, it's precisely because you spend your time in places that once refused to budge and were left alone, for the price of dropping off the face of polite society.

>>686547
Guess what, uygha, we're on the internet, not on the street or supermarket. (Situational) code-switching is perfectly normal human behavior, and chans in particular always strongly warned about and discouraged exporting their shit elsewhere.

>they're a repressed bitch in real life, and once they get on the internet they can "feel free"

[serious bearded man] Yes.

 No.686577

>>686570
my fag you need to relax. pedantically: "should we be speaking in a particular way?" is only one of many questions posed by the OP, and by far the least interesting one.
meta level principles are always derived from an attempt to shape immediate realities.
people everywhere are always doing everything, what you've got is a preoccupation that can't help but let itself slip out, looking at the vast infinity of the internet and picking out the pieces of statistical noise that frighten you. here's a thought: what about "the phenomenon of developing uninclusive terminology, from OP is a faggot to YWNBAW." (in quotation marks because it'd make a great book title.)

>code-switching is perfectly normal human behavior, and chans in particular always strongly warned about and discouraged exporting their shit elsewhere.

then i put this to you: surely /leftypol/ as a non-chan, should help *chans maintain their policy of not exporting their shit elsewhere. if people can be expected code-switch between 4chan and real life, why not between /leftypol/ and real life, and between /leftypol/ and 4chan?
(and so the real dispute: "is /leftypol/ a chan?" pokes its head out of the water, the signal aspect starts flashing rapidly from red to green to red to green, from full to empty to full to empty, the AWS bell screaming, the driver's hands unable to hit the fast moving override button.)

 No.686633

4chan went down the shitter because of mods who would constantly excuse straight up garbage posts because apparently it was supposed to be "culture"
chans are the only forums where even basic moderation is seen as a fucking crime. why? who knows

 No.686660

what a worthless thread. if we had serious moderation it would be either purged or moved to the trash board in an instant

 No.686669

>>686577
>looking at the vast infinity of the internet
Ah, obviously. This may come as a surprise to you, but some people are also interacting with others in real life. (Okay, that wasn't entirely accurate, I was being facetious for the purpose of sarcasm. What I am specifically thinking of here is left-wing orgs - not the only place one can encounter the problem, to be sure, but the one closest to my heart and this site's theme - and I will readily admit it's questionable whether they currently constitute real life or some kind of long-winded LARP. What I contend is that language-policing freaks are one of the strongest forces pushing them towards being the latter.)

>what about "the phenomenon of developing uninclusive terminology

Note my scare quotes around "inclusive", though. Chan terminology is inherently inclusive, both in intention and practice. It excludes noone but the easily offended, and even for them, there's a "paradox of tolerance"-style argument to be made about how it's a good thing, actually.

>if people can be expected code-switch between 4chan and real life, why not between /leftypol/ and real life, and between /leftypol/ and 4chan?

Real life behavior has real life consequences, conformism is a way to avoid them, you don't have to agree with what people conform to to respect their right to do so, as well as encourage them to do so for their own good.
Chans? Much of their point is enabling communication that's free from reputational constraints. There's a value in that which I would encourage everyone to try to preserve.

>is /leftypol/ a chan?

I mean, I look at the site's credits and notice it's running on a software called "vichan" and "lainchan". Arguing it's "not a chan" would probably require some cultural tribalism bullshitting about uniqueness of the userbase, because functionally, it self-evidently is one.

 No.686704

>>686669
In all of my time offline the only noteworthy form of language policing I can say I've encountered is children being chastised for swearing. Plenty of time spent agonizing over specific choices in wording and the like, but never any "please don't say 'X'…" type thing.
The reason orgs are LARP-fests isn't because of linguistic pedants. Insofar as any exist, it's likely downstream of the fact that the party form is irrelevant to present circumstances. Given the present state of working class organisation, a party can only take two forms: "serious" but likely doomed electoralism, or LARPing. Once you set aside the possibility to make immediate change and move into the world of setting out "demands" that nobody has any reason to listen to, you're already playing an elf mage. If someone succeeds in making everyone in the org refer to the colour of the sky as Green, they'll be the most effective activist in the entire org because they'll actually have changed how people act. An org that doesn't act on the world as a canvas for the obsessive to act upon. A vulnerability that an org that acts on the world doesn't have because it's preoccupied with planning and conducting actual tasks. (But this isn't unique to "language policing" - time spent arguing over language use in an org is wasted in much the same way as time wasted arguing over theory.)
If much of this sounds vague to the point of insanity it's because i'm assuming some prior familiarity with the "Deliver the Goods!" thread, the tl;dr of which for our purposes might well be "Parties LARP, Tenants Unions don't".)

>Chan terminology is inherently inclusive, both in intention and practice

I am deeply impressed by the ability to so elegantly weave the evidence that this is not the case - that it's clearly designed to exclude somebody, and that this is a good thing - into evidence that it is in-fact the case.
But the same can be done for the flip side: constraining language choices is inherently inclusive - the only people it excludes from the in-group are those you'd want to exclude anyway.
The in-group can be defined by pronouncing "shibboleth" properly, or by pronouncing it improperly. Both have the exact same form: they draw a line, they put some people on one side of it and some people on the other side of it. My side, your side. The outgroup, the ingroup.
(And indeed, in an org arguing over theory, over language, over any petty little thing, you often find that it's really a personal dispute hiding behind words. The party splits because it contains an ingroup and an outgroup, rather than the party being the ingroup and the rest of the world being the outgroup…)

>Chans? Much of their point is enabling communication that's free from reputational constraints

they fail very badly at this, but in a way that isn't immediately obvious. you can't get rid of the basic human desire, the basic monkey desire, probably even the basic dog desire to know who's in the ingroup and who's in the outgroup. there's always going to be a reddit spacing newfag. past posts may not follow you like future posts as they would under a username, people may not know your face, but they'll still find a way to draw lines and they'll often still put two and two together to identify recurring obsessives.
(and, although reputation doesn't apply so strongly, people often act as though it does - still have to get the last word, still have to get the (you)s, still have to show i'm not mad… even if the nature of the medium itself lets people play with these tendencies.)

>I mean, I look at the site's credits and notice it's running on a software called "vichan" and "lainchan". Arguing it's "not a chan" would probably require some cultural tribalism bullshitting about uniqueness of the userbase, because functionally, it self-evidently is one.

my position: the name of the software is not particularly relevant and there's value in a distinction between imageboards (a style of website) and *chans (denoting a specific cultural and userbase crossover). now, you can argue back and forth about the terminology used, but that's the best way to do it in two words rather than going "futaba style imageboards with 4chan-derived culture" and "futaba style imageboards with culture independent of 4chan" or some other monstrosity.
and for the site to be culturally independent enough for that distinction to matter the userbase doesn't have to be unique, provided it code switches or otherwise acts differently the thing being measured there - culture - changes. even if you want to say "well, /leftypol/ isn't that different" it certainly applies to other imageboards.

 No.686772

>>684426
>It makes it seem like bigotry is tolerated here
It clearly is with that example alone.

>Now maybe you think that because the current left is swallowed by wokeness, that this is a good thing, that we should have a place where we can say whatever we want

Very sound reasoning from someone who definitely doesn't tolerate bigotry.

 No.686774

yes and if you're feelings are hurt so easy get off the internet

 No.686791


 No.686802

>>686791
fuck off grammar fag

 No.686809

>>684411
>>684411
No one forces posters to say -fag so just chill

 No.686815

>>686704
>Plenty of time spent agonizing over specific choices in wording and the like, but never any "please don't say 'X'…" type thing.
This is not my experience, which does in fact include plenty of literal "please don't say 'X'"'s. But more generally, it includes way too much bickering about what constitutes "inclusive" language, and way too little about what constitutes an effective message.
I mean, I agree with most of what you say, assuming your "party vs. tenants union" is a mental shortcut for "no practical goals vs. practical goals". But it doesn't counter what I'm saying unless you're specifically claiming that an org will turn inwards if and only if it lacks a practical goal. My take is that it will turn inwards because specific people are interested in it turning inwards and, if successful, force the org to drop practical goals and pursue internal purity fantasies.
(As I mentioned above, it's not just leftist orgs, they're just a specific case of a general tendency of aspiring individuals to use sectarian mobilization and purity tests as an effective way of advancing their position within hierarchies. Which often does work for individuals, but always damages the structures they advance within. In your take, a practical success would breed more practical success, in mine, it would attract careerists who proceed to undermine it for personal gain. The latter just honestly seems way more congruent with reality.)

>The in-group can be defined by pronouncing "shibboleth" properly, or by pronouncing it improperly.

That's not what the dichotomy is. The dichotomy is between adhering to shibboleths and not adhering to them. Those adopting the latter usually understand the implication of this "excluding" the people who require adherence to shibboleths, but it's just not the same kind of exclusion that's implied by the active policing of the in-group necessary to enforce said adherence.
(I mean, ostensibly-racist /pol/ having statistically more melanin than any random "inclusive" baizuo group should be enough to demonstrate the inherent practical difference between the two approaches.)

>they fail very badly at this

I think it's individual people who fail at this. Surely, those individuals' problems often accumulated into a return to shibboleth-adherence in practice. Whether it's instinctive or learned, I wouldn't know. What I do know that once you manage to unlearn it, it truly makes you freer, so I'm personally not giving it up.

>there's value in a distinction between imageboards (a style of website) and *chans (denoting a specific cultural and userbase crossover)

Okay, that's a fair distinction that just wasn't clear with your word choice.
I would still say the functional characteristics of imageboards as a method of communication are ultimately more relevant to this kind of discussion than specifics of culture (in a classic base vs. superstructure way).

 No.686830

>>684411
Typical liberal obsession with signifiers over content. On the other hand whole populations of eastern countries receive the most primitive vitriol on leftypol, not even affording these countries any analysis unlike the West, and any attempt at discussion is immediately derailed by said vitriol. This is not just imageboard linguistics, like your trivial issue, but /pol/ ideology as well.

 No.686984

>>686830
>populations of eastern countries receive the most primitive vitriol on leftypol
not true

 No.687099

I just use the word friend
samefriend
drawfriend

 No.687133

File: 1641930286937.jpg (6.27 KB, 188x268, nkvd.jpg)

>>686809
>mfw the anon hasn't included his mandatory slurs

 No.687136

>>687099
based and friendpilled

 No.687206

>>687136
What's this you've said to me, my good friend? Ill have you know I graduated top of my class in conflict resolution, and Ive been involved in numerous friendly discussions, and I have over 300 confirmed friends. I am trained in polite discussions and I'm the top mediator in the entire neighborhood. You are worth more to me than just another target. I hope we will come to have a friendship never before seen on this Earth. Don't you think you might be hurting someone's feelings saying that over the internet? Think about it, my friend. As we speak I am contacting my good friends across the USA and your P.O. box is being traced right now so you better prepare for the greeting cards, friend. The greeting cards that help you with your hate. You should look forward to it, friend. I can be anywhere, anytime for you, and I can calm you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my chess set. Not only am I extensively trained in conflict resolution, but I have access to the entire group of my friends and I will use them to their full extent to start our new friendship. If only you could have known what kindness and love your little comment was about to bring you, maybe you would have reached out sooner. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now we get to start a new friendship, you unique person. I will give you gifts and you might have a hard time keeping up. You're finally living, friend.

 No.687212

>>687099
So you're a friendfag?

 No.687280

>>687212
friendfriend, friend

 No.687326

y'all fig newtons

 No.688176

>>687326
I didn't know Steve Crowder visited this site. Nice.

 No.688201

File: 1641990411654.jpg (49.44 KB, 720x701, poop.jpg)

>>685338
People used to make these all the time, but they stopped because there isn't really a directional flow anymore. Shit just swills around.

The prevailing opinion is:
>The internet is five websites, each consisting of screenshots of text from the other four
And that comes from a twitter screencap which makes twitter the defacto top site.

 No.688578

>>684411
chans were already shit, but they took a nosedive once the tumblr raids/GG shit happened. It ruined the entire internet

 No.688580



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