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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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File: 1641878588970.jpeg (3.07 MB, 2952x2024, Tony_robert-fleury,_l'ult….jpeg)

 No.686380

Why Modern colonialism is worse than ancient colonialism or "conquest" as practised by Mongols, Arabs, Maghreb, Greek, Roman, Ottoman, Chinese ecc. for example?
Why ancient colonialism is forgotten?

 No.686386

>Why Modern colonialism is worse than ancient colonialism
Who said it's "worse"? Modern colonialism is discussed more because it impacts our present far more than the ancient version.

 No.686388

things are more civilized today than in ancient times
for instance, there was no international law, there were no war crimes, wars were often started with little to no justification other than they thought they could win
Political expulsion was one avenue for ancient colonization, and conquest another. Both have fruit to polities who wished to "make a name" for themselves, and generally become their independent from the mother polity.
Late medieval colonialism was mostly about profits

 No.686398

>>686386
When discussing post colonialism and nativism ecc. People tend to forget how many layers of colonization are there.
If was watching a video by a post colonialist/nativist youtuber and she said some spooky shit. Idk what country her ancestors are from but part of africa was colonized or "conquered" by arabs too, shouldn't a process of colonization get rid of islam too for example? How far we have to go to truly decolonize? Italy too had a lot of internal colonization, should i apply nativist theory to italy it would be a return to monke.

 No.686516

I don't know how could anybody defend how modern Colonialism is worse than ancient colonialism.
Ancient colonialism straight saw the ethnocide of many different cultural groups and the enslavement of whole peoples.
If anything people who argue for ancient colonialism have a quite "romanticized" and sanitized idea of the material conditions of the common folk of ancient times. That or they have not read enough of ancient history.

 No.686607

Op is retarded

 No.686618

File: 1641899372701.png (760.59 KB, 2500x1249, Ancient_colonies.png)

i don't think anyone distinguishes between "ancient" and "modern" colonialism except for a certain subsection of marxists maybe
any way, colonialism isn't unique to "modernity"

 No.686621

>>686618
as in, there's no uniquely modern colonialism

 No.686624

>>686380
>Why Modern colonialism is worse than ancient colonialism
Because it's happening right now.
Are you retarded?

 No.686631

>Why is capitalism worse than feudalism? Why is feudalism forgotten?
same energy

 No.686672

>>686618
Wait, were Etruscans descended from Lydian colonists? Is that why they thought they were Trojans?

 No.686673

>>686380
>Mongols, Arabs, Maghreb, Greek, Roman, Ottoman, Chinese

None of these ethnicities were colonial powers you giga retard

 No.686675

>>686380
>Mongols, Arabs, Maghreb, Greek, Roman, Ottoman, Chinese

These nations sought to expand their borders while integrating the conquered peoples within their own core nations as full citizens, colonialism is either waging a genocidal war to create living space for your settlers or subjugating a nation to take its resources and enslave the locals

 No.686679

>>686673
>>686675
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish%E2%80%93Roman_War

 No.686683

File: 1641902398381.png (342.42 KB, 1645x833, lam.png)

>>686672
picrel
>>686673
Greeks kinda were

 No.686685

By this retard logic the Poles "colonized" the Lithuanians and Germans and Ruthenians, the Germans colonized the West Slavs and Celts, the English colonized the Welsh, the Prussians colonized the Baltic people, Scandinavians colonized the Sami, etc and etc…

Not every conquest is colonization

 No.686702

>>686685
Ok, then what makes conquest better than colonization?

 No.686837

>>686380
Read Lenin stupid

 No.686838

>>686380
Because its effects are so profound, more than those by ancient ourguys. Also its lasting legacy are to be noted.

 No.686841

>>686673
>mongols
>arabs
>ottoman
>roman
although they were not but were still expansionist empires. try again next time

 No.686842

>Mongols
>Better than modern imperialism
Holy fuck you really need to stop watching Haz

 No.686844

>>686380
Bourgeois moralisation

 No.687189

>>686618
>i don't think anyone distinguishes between "ancient" and "modern" colonialism except for a certain subsection of marxists maybe


every subsection of marxists. its the same as imperialism.
things are defined by their relation to the means of production and their material conditions, not your ideas about how things should be. just because people use "colonialism" to describe both doesn't mean they are the same thing.


you are basically saying that capitalism is human nature because there is no different between private ownership and bartering for sea shells. if you don't have a material analysis you don't have an analysis, you have baseless speculation and conjecture.

 No.687193

>>686841
it is important to note that these were all progressive empires while modern colonialism stifled progress

 No.687194

>Why Modern colonialism is worse than ancient colonialism
I think because chattel slavery and racism are relatively modern phenomenons

 No.687197

>>687194
anon, in the ancient era it was common to slaughter everyone in a captured city except the women and little boys who you would take as sex slaves until you raped them to death as well.

 No.687199

>>687194
>I think because chattel slavery and racism are relatively modern phenomenons
They had them in antiquity too, though obviously in different forms. Here's an interesting video on ancient Roman concepts of race. I will acknowledge though that the brutality of the Atlantic slave trade was unprecedented, and far exceeded that of antiquity, the Arab slave trade, etc.

 No.687200

>>687194
Where did this talking point come from? Who is the absolute fucking dipshit who said ancient people didn't hate each other for petty ethnic/cultural reasons and send each other by the thousands to die in the salt mines?

Sure, they weren't using 19th-century scientific methods to breed stronger slaves successively nor was the crimes limited to just one race in particular but to pretend that questions of race and slavery in the Americas somehow differ in any way from the rest of the world at a fundamental level is so goddamn stupid.

Why? Tell me why.

 No.687202

>>687200
It's from Haz and other psuedo-leftists that idealise people like the Mongols, Caesar, etc.

 No.687203

>>687202
Like my BF shills for Caesar even though his campaigns in Gaul were basically Generalplan Ost

 No.687210

>>687202
Haz seems fine. I'm talking about these soybrained white western libs who are always saying "slavery was always b-b-bad but America's was the worst! Please forgive us black kangs! I am guilty of the sins of my father! Please I beg! I want to be good! I'll be your slave if you ask!"

American liberals are just fucking pathetic. They are historically illiterate cowards who can't reckon with the evils our species have always engaged in, never even mind dream of a future where they are in any way lessened or done away with.

They want masters and slaves forever.

 No.687216

>>687210
You're just excusing slavery by saying 'uhh it always happened' in turn, so get fucked.

 No.687218

>>687210
go outside

 No.687223

>>687210
It's unfortunately not just liberals engaged in this, many (most) left organizations will try to remove you if you don't agree with that under the guise of 'protecting colonized peoples'

Also there is too much to be gained for little risk and so anyone with somewhat black skin can get whatever they want with the racism card. The allure of power is too tempting for people to pass up and liberal guilt is a free pass for anything you do

 No.687225

>>687216
Pointing out the objective fact that American society's brutality is not a historical aberration isn't "making excuses" for it.

 No.687238

>>687223
>Also there is too much to be gained for little risk and so anyone with somewhat black skin can get whatever they want with the racism card. The allure of power is too tempting for people to pass up and liberal guilt is a free pass for anything you do
Please refrain from using /pol/ talking points.

 No.687244

File: 1641936811452.jpg (602.39 KB, 1920x1280, caesar.jpg)

>>686380
>Why Modern colonialism is worse than ancient colonialism or "conquest" as practised by Mongols, Arabs, Maghreb, Greek, Roman, Ottoman, Chinese ecc. for example?

uygha france used to be celtic before the romans showed up

 No.687248

File: 1641937001355.gif (314.33 KB, 850x728, galatia-gaul.gif)

>>687244
LAND BACK

 No.687261

>>687189
neo-colonialism is more modern because it's specifically exerted through finance capital, but "european" colonialism up until the 19th and 20th centuries was no different from "ancient" colonialism
even at its height, the Spanish Empire was still inferior militarily and economically to the German and Italian princes and bourgeois of the Holy Roman Empire, and even Bourbon France, which is why its monarchy still managed to be so cucked to them

 No.687264

File: 1641937621840.jpg (461.84 KB, 1280x1002, English_Ships_and_the_Span….jpg)

>>687261
oh, and the English too

 No.687267

>>687251
>but "european" colonialism up until the 19th and 20th centuries was no different from "ancient" colonialism
Iirc generally conquest in antiquity could be quite brutal, and it often involved a lot of murder, enslavement, looting, destruction, etc. However keep in mind that these were not capitalist societies, and so there was no imperative of accumulation. As a result the actual rule of such empires in the long term weren't necessarily oriented to ruthless extraction or exploitation. I've even heard some historians argue that there was a tendency for wealth (or at least currency) to flow from the centre of the empire to the periphery, as imperial elites spent lavishly on exotic goods from the far reaches of their empire.

 No.687283

>>686672
The Romans were a mix of the Trojans and Latins because that is what the Aenid says. Etruscans were probably descended from a pre PIE culture.

So when are we getting a Socialist Rome flag?

 No.687284

>>687267
>However keep in mind that these were not capitalist societies, and so there was no imperative of accumulation.
well, there was some imperative in exploiting the natives and selling some of them off as slaves but that didn't last too long. there was also the need for a kind of "lebensraum", land that could be settled for luxurious plantations that would subsidize commodities for the metropolis through lucrative protectionist deals, which can be a little capitalist but not really

 No.687288

>>687284
>subsidize commodities
only certain commodities, so not really commodities, lol

 No.687339

>>686675
>while integrating the conquered peoples within their own core nations as full citizens
pay jizya kaffir

 No.687353

>>687339
You could just convert.

 No.687359

True does happen

 No.687363

>>687248
Why is this a gif

 No.688606

>>687200
>Sure, they weren't using 19th-century scientific methods
Thats the difference. Race was invented as a pseudoscientific catagory to justify capitalism. It did not exist in this context because science wasn't a thing yet, thats what people mean when they say racism was "invented by white people".

 No.688607

>>687284
>a little capitalist
what is "a little" capitalist???

>Colonial policy and imperialism existed before the latest stage of capitalism, and even before capitalism. Rome, founded on slavery, pursued a colonial policy and practised imperialism. But “general” disquisitions on imperialism, which ignore, or put into the background, the fundamental difference between socio-economic formations, inevitably turn into the most vapid banality or bragging, like the comparison: “Greater Rome and Greater Britain.” Even the capitalist colonial policy of previous stages of capitalism is essentially different from the colonial policy of finance capital.

 No.688646

>>687339
And? I'm 100% sure the Dhimmi fared 1000X better in the Arab caliphates than the New World natives could ever dream of, shove your orientalist propaganda up your ass whit*id

 No.688947

>>688646
You are the one with the orientalist pow here faggit

 No.691180

>>686398
I think there is quite a bit of apologia for Arab Empire of the past. I've definitely heard people say things like "they had slavery, but it wasn't that bad".

I'm in a reading group with an Black woman from an Arab country and she basically says this all the time

 No.691181

>>691180
to be clear, she says that there's a lot of apologia for it.

 No.691216

>>691180
Are there structural difference between slavery in the Muslim world and the West?
Was there a difference in statut and treatment between slaves in thoses places? Did the proportion between productive slave labor and domestic slave labor different? What about the scale it happened? Is there any work related to this?

 No.691376

>>691216
I don't know, but maybe start here

https://themaydan.com/2020/10/anti-blackness-in-the-muslim-world-beyond-apologetics-and-orientalism/

https://sites.duke.edu/researchafrica/files/2020/08/0-4-Debating-Anti-Blackness-in-the-Arab-Muslim-World-RAR-Editorial-2020.pdf>>691216


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