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 No.688610

Online, there are large swathes of Young Americans interested in achieving Socialism in our country. This is perhaps simple enough, given how decayed Capitalism has gotten here and how even the most basic provisions found in other States are considered taboo by the American political structure.

Simultaneously, it's commonly understood that America itself has acted as a unique obstacle on the growth of Socialism. Historically it's been to the Right of most other States and certain material features of the country has created a unique set of traditions which have been no great boon to Socialism.

What I want to do with this thread, is catalogue the various challenges posed to American Socialism and how we might rectify them.

The Issue of Internationalism
Internationalism, I believe, has developed mostly within the context of Europe and "Old World" countries. That is to say, an internationalist movement of proletarians would come more naturally to Europeans and other states in the Eastern Hemisphere in no small part because Europe was historically both the birthplace of Socialist Thought and home to a Kaleidoscope of nationalities, languages, cultures, and heresies all trading and warring with one another throughout its history.

To highlight this, I believe it's considered the norm in European countries for people to speak multiple languages: English, French, German, Spanish, so on. Marx spoke around 4 languages if I recall, and Engels spoke 10. By contrast it's historically considered the norm in America to only speak English. Polyglots have been regarded historically as either intelligent elites or fifth columnists depending on how Melinated their skin is.

Similarly, despite America being a vast land, it's the geopolitical offspring of The United Kingdom. For centuries it was the Anglo-Saxon political class that ultimately determined the direction of the country and its culture. Historically speaking we've inherited an Island Culture with all that entails: always looking inward. Across that great expanse of water lies a decrepit land of Bohemians and Hunnic barbarians.

This isn't to say that American Socialists should reject Internationalism. Rather, that the American Socialist Movement is one in which Internationalism will inevitably play a diminished role compared to European States. There's only two Nations with which we share a direct land border. The history of our migrations are far more straightforward than the constant intermingling of European tribes and ethnographies: such that we could carve the west up into blocks and form delineate borders with a ruler. To our North are people who speak the same language as us (and French) and to our South is a thousand different scions of Iberia that we've segregated apart from us with fences and walls. There's a general sense in trade and war, that what happens beyond the horizon and the vast body of water below it is none of our concern: a war in Afghanistan seems as real as a war on the moon.

The Atomized World, Workplace, and Trade Unions
One of the unique problems facing American Socialists, is the relatively depleted collective consciousness of any sort in America, especially today.

The earliest political struggle within the newly formed United States, was that of the small land-holding farmers (represented among the Founding Fathers by Thomas Jefferson) and the bankers and Northern Bourgeoisie (represented foremost by Hamilton.)

Rightly or wrongly, Jefferson saw the rise of industrial capitalism as a horrific threat to American liberalism. In part because he understood that if a man is dependent on another man for his way of life (as the Proletariat is under Industrial Capitalism) then the idea of a democracy based on reason between legally equal individuals would collapse in on itself.

Our ever-expanding territory had smothered aspects of the class struggle for decades. This was because it seemed entirely possible, for a brief period of time, for Americans to have a measure of individual control over their circumstances. The Prole could go west and homestead, and the modern evolution of that thought was a 20th century economy where the petite-bourgeois replaced the rugged Homesteader.

Thus the largest issue with raising the consciousness of working Americans as a collective class is that everything about our society, the mediation of reality to us, is atomized down to that of individual problems and individual solutions. I'm a grocery clerk, the young people I work with are working in a grocery store as a precursor to starting their careers in some white collar office after college. The elderly people are, similarly, acting as though their work is a mere distraction while whittling away their twilight years. Very few people even bother trying to do what I do as an actual career, there's no sense of being bonded to our workplace.

Similarly, our wages are negotiated individually. We get raises after a review period wherein we're told whether us, the individual employee, has met all the expectations set out by the company.

America's poor and working class is not so much "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" so much as confused homesteaders. They've been taught that the individual is the locus of reality, and they don't engage in society through communal labor so much as the voluntary cooperation between ostensibly equal individuals: Going to the same Church. Rooting for the same football team.

American Leftism itself has always maintained an Anarchist streak: Syndicalists in the IWW, the assassination of various politicians and capitalists by individual actors. Fascism similarly ha faced similar issues, the collective thuggery of brownshirts has to be mediated into Libertarian Militias, themselves rooted in historical reactionary "volunteers" like Southern Lynch Mobs and The Pinkertons. That is to say, the Freikorps seems more like willing civilians engaging in small-scale group violence than an organized veterans movement.

This is perhaps why the American Left is divided into a hundred billion microsects. As it stands only the CPUSA and PSL (I believe) exist as a truly national party apparatus in a majority of states. Even then, some "districts" are composed of only two or three Socialists trying to start a reading group.

Formulating Socialism in an American Context
America as a geopolitical entity poses a unique problem for Socialists, as I said. A successful Vanguard Party in America will, by organically addressing the contradictions of organizing in America, look radically different from its European Comrades.

For one, a successful American Socialist Movement would likely be one in which foreign/international affairs is Secondary or even Tertiary to the primary goal of building Socialism in the United States. Which isn't to say adopting the collaborationist/reformist line of Social Democrats, or even being "patriotic", so much as the major issues within the Movement's power to change would be generally localized problems. Socialism in One Country as it were.

Secondly, by the nature of American Society and Culture, the Vanguard would likely be small, to an extent decentralized, and highly adaptable. I believe that Che Guevera warrants an additional study by American Leftists. His writing on Guerilla warfare and how Guerilla Cells are organized can easily be adapted to other forms of political organizing.

Given Socialism here has to be sought out by individual initiative rather than a pre-existing culture that absorbs the proletariat through Union/Political community, I believe that the best course of action for Socialists is to form cells of 3-5 people, focusing intensely on organizing a local community into councils and collective groups that can later be weaved into a patchwork tapestry that would make up a truly national movement.

Regardless, to meet the challenge that is building Socialism in America, we must necessarily seek new understanding and theories for organizing, rather than conservative dogmatism.

 No.688636

File: 1642019719249-0.jpg (336.15 KB, 800x480, roman-senate.jpg)

>>688610
Interesting article here:

https://www.cpusa.org/article/bill-of-rights-socialism-and-the-future-of-the-republic/

>The most well-known republic in ancient history was formed in Rome with the overthrow of the Roman monarch Lucius Tarquinius Superbus by the patrician aristocracy of Rome. Tarquinius’ rule had become so intolerable to the aristocracy that they resolved by degrees to overthrow him.


>Yet the patricians by themselves could not bring to bear enough force to decisively win in their revolutionary struggle. The revolution was sparked when the masses of plebians rioted over the rape of Lucretius by Tarquinius’ son and her subsequent suicide. This mass activity was critical for the aristocracy to unite and banish the monarchy and replace it with two consuls who would be able to “check” one another through a veto.


>The mixed constitutions of republics emerged out of this historical process as the institutionalization of a balanced form of class rule. The Roman aristocracy was able to secure its position of power in the Roman Senate. Yet spontaneous plebian activity in the revolutionary struggle forced the patricians to integrate the popular class into its republican system as well. Checks and balances in a republic are reflections of the underlying balance of class forces at a particular moment when that republic is first constituted.


[…]

>According to political scientist Kent Brudney, Machiavelli “accepted the class basis of political life and believed that class conflict could be beneficial to a republic.” The “creative possibilities of class conflict” were recognized for “their importance to the maintenance of Roman liberty.” Brudney continues: “The episodes of conflict between the Roman patriciate and the Roman people were vital to the development of good laws and to the continuity of Rome’s founding principles.”


>This class-struggle understanding of mixed constitutionalism was also at the fore in the debates around the ratification of the U.S. Constitution.


[…]

>Thus, we see that “mixed constitutions” of republics are only the institutionalization of class struggle. If the republic is supposed to make the affairs of public power a question of public input, it must always balance the class foundation of the state with at least the nominal political participation of the masses. Ruling class power in a republic is always concentrated in the senate, and popular power is always located in a “lower” branch of government. This balance creates a dynamism between the two while also developing a hegemonic understanding of the state as representing “the whole people,” even if the state is always constituted under a specific class basis.


>Bill of Rights Socialism deepens the theory of the mixed constitution and gives it a proletarian character. Rather than calling for the abolition of the senate as such, Bill of Rights Socialism recognizes the need to reconstitute the republic along proletarian class lines, transforming the current senate founded on the “wisdom” of slave owners and oligarchs into an “industrial” senate that is instead based on the wisdom and experience of the leaders of the working class.


>Like Lenin’s soviets, the industrial senate would be built out of “the direct organisation of the working and exploited people themselves, which helps them to organise and administer their own state in every possible way.” Leaders, drawn from the broad working-class majority, would carry with them both an intimate knowledge of all parts of the production process and a distinct working-class perspective into the development of public policy. And like both the soviets and senates past, the industrial senate would be insulated from universal direct election, with a focus on cultivating tested working-class leadership collaborating to build and protect a common vision of a democratic socialist republic. The class character of the senate would serve as a “check” on one side of the equation.


>But Bill of Rights Socialism can grow only out of the success of a massive people’s front. Led by the organized working class, this front would also contain all progressive people and class allies, including small farmers, small- and medium-size-business owners, the self-employed, and independent intellectuals and professionals. The primary stage of socialism does not end class struggle but transforms it under the decisive political rule of the working class. A “People’s House” would provide a democratic space for these other class elements to make constructive and progressive contributions to building socialism without sacrificing or obscuring the working-class nature of the new republic.


>Further, experience from the last century indicates that even a working-class state can degenerate bureaucratically without broader popular participation and oversight. In addition to incorporating non-proletarian class elements constructively into the workers’ republic, the lower house would also provide a space for the exercise of universal suffrage and the direct election of representatives by the whole people. These popular representatives could play a consultative role to the industrial senate and provide institutional oversight. This would provide a “check” on the other side of the equation.


>The “checks and balances” between the industrial senate and the people’s house would capture the “quarrels and the noise” familiar to American democracy while preserving absolutely the republic’s fundamental class nature. This dynamic interrelationship creates the conditions for the third core idea of republicanism to prevail, the “contestatory citizenry.”

 No.688642

Socialism alone cannot fox the literal decades of shitty policies, systems and horrendous foreign relations this country contains and runs on

Your gonna need a little more than just socialism fix this shithoke

 No.688643

>>688642
Sorry I was wrong
It wasn’t decades it was centuries

 No.688733

I'm a bit torn on the whole Socialism with American Characteristics concept. On the one hand, I would kind of like (sentimentally) to see socialism create a rejuvenated republic that carries on the historical American mission shorn of racism, classism, sexism etc. I definitely see the appeal there and understand how even hardcore leftists can feel like America would lose something if she abandoned her ideals in favor of purely technocratic socialism.

On the other, let's be real. America is at the apex of technological advancement and a technocratic socialism would produce, almost necessarily, the most advanced society in the world by far. A tentpole of its economic advancement is its facility to attract hyper-competent immigrants and socialism forcing them to jump through arbitrary hoops to fulfil long-dead (or never real) fantasies of Jeffersonian citizenry is a little silly and counterproductive.

Any communism worthy of the name would need to do away with the old bourgeois symbols like the flag, why not do away with ossified ideas of citizenry as well? While speaking to the culture is a good idea usually, in America a lot of people's idea of nationhood is fundamentally reactionary and proto-imperialistic.

The other point of your post regarding exactly *how* to achieve socialism in America, is the better one. I think locality is the often overlooked aspect of American politicking and we do need to organize local socialist movements before we take the nation. I blame the lack of the tendency to think locally on what I call "presidentism," the tendency to view presidential elections as the ultimate manifestation of American democracy rather than the least democratic aspect of the body politic. That gets people wrongly believing in a national movement developing spontaneously.

 No.688877

>>688733
>I would kind of like (sentimentally) to see socialism create a rejuvenated republic that carries on the historical American mission
>fantasies of Jeffersonian citizenry is a little silly and counterproductive.
What is the American mission if not the egalitarian and populist/anti-aristocratic Democracy envisioned by Jefferson?

 No.688886

File: 1642031187838.jpg (284.72 KB, 799x412, Power-to-the-people-1.jpg)

>>688733
There was another passage from this >>688636 that was interesting in that it argues that contradictions and struggles within the working class would continue to exist in a socialist republic guided by proletarian political power for a long period of time, although the initial steps must be made before its establishment, while also using that reality to guide the reconstruction of the American republic on a different basis. In other words, revolution is a necessary step but not "in and of itself the solution to social problems."

>The contestatory citizenry forms a fundamental basis for the Bill of Rights and so must serve as a basis for Bill of Rights Socialism. These rights include freedom of speech, of assembly, of faith and conscience, and the right to be informed about the functioning of public power. Politically critical art, protests, and organizations must play a fundamental role in the construction of socialism in the United States and thus must be protected under Bill of Rights Socialism.


>Struggle does not only occur between oppressor and oppressed, between exploiter and exploited. Struggle also goes on within the oppressed and exploited. Historical development has created an unevenness within the working class: divisions around race, sex, sexuality, religion, cultural beliefs, nationality, language, and so on. This unevenness can be overcome only after a long period of struggle to resolve these divisions and build a unity through our diversity; to give real content to the national motto “E Pluribus Unum.” While the initial steps in this process of internal struggle for unity within the working class and democratic forces must be made before the establishment of socialism by building a people’s front, the establishment of socialism does not mechanically erase the social unevenness within that people’s front overnight.


>Revolution and reform are distinct, but also deeply interrelated. The development of social scientific methods and professional specialization has produced the historical capacity to carry out deep and broad reforms to the social system in a planned, scientific, and rational way. Reform can and must always go on, improving social institutions and making sure they advance with the times. However, reform does not happen abstractly, but according to the degree of political will brought to bear on the process. Reform in a social system hits a wall when the ruling class is no longer willing to exercise its political will to allow the reform process to deepen and expand according to the needs of the populace.


>Revolution is not in and of itself the solution to social problems; revolution is the punctuated transformation from one form of class rule to the next. This transformation in class rule does not replace reform, but unlocks it to unfold more deeply, at a faster pace, and in a more thoroughgoing way than the degenerate ruling class that was replaced could or would allow. By elevating the working class to the level of the ruling class in a workers’ republic, the struggle for reforms is not ended but transformed. Republicanism allows this reform struggle to take place both on an individual, contestatory foundation protected by a socialist Bill of Rights, as well as within the bounds of law constrained by socialist constitutional forms.

 No.689088

>>688733
>I'm a bit torn on the whole Socialism with American Characteristics concept.

It's less-so-much the conscious creation of a Socialism that's been compromised by Americanism but rather that any successful socialism that happens in this country will organically adapt to the characteristics of the country. It wont be the imposition of a system from above, but the creation of one from below.

>>688877
Though he's loathed for being a slave owning aristocrat, I'd place Jefferson as being Center-Left of the Founding Fathers, given he appeared to be legitimately committed to the cause of Liberalism rather than a crypto-Monarchist like Hamilton

 No.689089

>>688877
The American mission has largely seemed to be that of an expansionist slave empire that very smugly clarified their democracy as being between “legally equal individuals” because they knew that half the people in their fucking territory were defined as non-humans and another third could not even vote and some were even written off for extermination from the very beginning

But hey, maybe the story of a brutally violent, expansionist, eugenicist genocidal slave empire that inevitably transformed into a brutal reactionary global empire the first chance it got hits different when you’re one of the celebrated in-group citizenry instead of some lowly despised subject like some black nigha from the city like me

 No.689113

>>689089
Let's not forget that the first Socialist State was born from the remnants of the Arch-Reactionary of Europe, Tsarist Russia. That it was the Russian Proles coming to an accord with the oppressed nationalities within said Empire that toppled the Tsar.

That America has committed horrific crimes against the people within America, I don't think can be denied. However within America there's been conflicts and contradictions, nuance in a word. You had Jefferson and Hamilton. Confederacy and Union. Proles and Capitalists. A galaxy of views and struggles and causes, not a linear narrative.

 No.689146

>>689113
They didn’t commit horrific crimes against their citizens, not for the most part
No their most horrific crimes were always against explicit non-citizens, entire indigenous villages slaughtered like animals days after worthless “peace treaties” and scalped for bounties
Slaves tortured, murdered, and subjected to nightmarish Joseph Mengele-tier tortures for modern gynecology to be born; and then black colonial subjects after the “end” of slavery being ruthlessly murdered for “crimes” ranging from whistling at a white women, to protesting the murder of your own husband, to simply being in the wrong town once the Sun goes down
You ever heard story of Mary Turner? She protested her husband’s torturous murder by a lynch mob, she was heavily pregnant. She threatened to go to the authorities due to the lynching. In response, the mob chased after this pregnant woman, beat her, bound her, riddled her with bullets, and set her body on fire. They cut her open with a pig splitter, she was so deep into her pregnancy that the child that was inside of her cried out after they split her stomach open. They ground the infant’s skull under their heel and buried Mary in a shallow grave in the middle of nowhere, they marked her grave with a beer bottle. This was in 1918.

So fuck this country, fuck its very foundations, fuck its piece of shit slave owning founders, fuck its hideous fucking flag, fuck its piece of shit national anthem, every worthless piece of iconography it’s ever shat out, and most of all fuck anyone, whether they be /pol/shit or a “socialist” that tells me I need to be a “patriot” or feel anything but utter hatred for this evil fucking empire. America should be utterly destroyed, a socialist America should not even be recognizable as “America”, this country sorely requires a cultural revolution. Fuck this genocidal empire and its sickening history, there has never been a moment of light in the history of this empire, at least the Russian Empire was formed by the indigenous inhabitants of Eastern Europe, America was formed by genocidal invaders from across the sea just a few generations ago.

Fuck it, fuck everything about it

 No.689262

>>689146
>So fuck this country, fuck its very foundations, fuck its piece of shit slave owning founders, fuck its hideous fucking flag, fuck its piece of shit national anthem, every worthless piece of iconography it’s ever shat out
Do you honestly think that this sentiment will in any way appeal to the average person? Most people may not be MAGA tier mega patriots, but they certainly aren't edgelord Sakaists either. Demanding that people renounce their nationality will get us nowhere, which is why no socialist project in history has ever done it.
>there has never been a moment of light in the history of this empire
Way to spit on the legacy of all the Americans who fought against slavery, imperialism, racism, etc.
>at least the Russian Empire was formed by the indigenous inhabitants of Eastern Europe
Yeah "indigenous" inhabitants who expanded from their heartland and brutally subjugated so many of their neighbours that their state was litterally known as "the prison of nations." There is nothing uniquely reactionary about America, there is no reason to believe that America as a national entity is unsalvagable. If Russia can be transformed then so can America.

 No.689268

>>689146
>America was formed by genocidal invaders from across the sea just a few generations ago.
>Fuck it, fuck everything about it

nobody tell this guy about how civilizations have been formed for centuries

 No.689274


 No.689296

>>689146
>They didn’t commit horrific crimes against their citizens, not for the most part

The Battle of Blair Mountain, Kent State Massacre, the Bonus Army Conflict, Johnstown Flood, and Haymarket Massacre were all acts of horrific violence directed against America's own citizens by its state however.
Sure, generally speaking they saved the worst violence for people outside the state, but that's true of most every nation and doesn't make America this uniquely reactionary state where the majority population can't be brought to Socialism because they've been living a life of cocaine and blowjobs for the past few years.

>You ever heard story of Mary Turner? She protested her husband’s torturous murder by a lynch mob, she was heavily pregnant. She threatened to go to the authorities due to the lynching. In response, the mob chased after this pregnant woman, beat her, bound her, riddled her with bullets, and set her body on fire. They cut her open with a pig splitter, she was so deep into her pregnancy that the child that was inside of her cried out after they split her stomach open. They ground the infant’s skull under their heel and buried Mary in a shallow grave in the middle of nowhere, they marked her grave with a beer bottle. This was in 1918.


Yes and Russia was launching constant pogroms against the Jews. Still was the first commie state. With the state being born from Russians themselves and not just an alliance of periphery peoples subjugated by it.

>So fuck this country, fuck its very foundations, fuck its piece of shit slave owning founders, fuck its hideous fucking flag, fuck its piece of shit national anthem, every worthless piece of iconography it’s ever shat out, and most of all fuck anyone, whether they be /pol/shit or a “socialist” that tells me I need to be a “patriot” or feel anything but utter hatred for this evil fucking empire. America should be utterly destroyed, a socialist America should not even be recognizable as “America”, this country sorely requires a cultural revolution.


Emotional hysterics doesn't benefit the cause of Socialism. American Socialism requires Americans of all colors and creeds to support it. Going on long "fuck America" tirades might make you feel good but it accomplishes less than nothing.

>Fuck this genocidal empire and its sickening history, there has never been a moment of light in the history of this empire, at least the Russian Empire was formed by the indigenous inhabitants of Eastern Europe, America was formed by genocidal invaders from across the sea just a few generations ago.


Pretty much everything east of the Urals was colonized by the Russians at the expense of its native people. There's also the Finns, Poles, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, etc that all also were subjugated by the Russians.

You're painting an almost narcissistic image of yourself as almost uniquely martyred by the reactionaries of the world rather than the reality that you're one of many oppressed peoples.

 No.689318

File: 1642046152156.jpg (343.93 KB, 1800x1205, AAA-CHIC-and-ALAN.jpg)

>>689296
I chalk the tendency up to occasional loss of composure, but I don't think it's capable of thinking in a strategic and revolutionary way, as in the sense of taking political power.

Also I think there's truth in that white leftists in America often have the option of retreating from real struggle. Like, they'll go on to get decent jobs or inherit a trust fund. That's a real fact that has to be submitted to radical criticism. At the same time, in a real struggle in which the rulers of American society feel like their backs are up against the wall, they won't hesitate to kill white leftists either. And the shock of recognition that this is true can be a radicalizing moment.

 No.689333

>>689318
I agree; I think it's important to remember pragmatism over raw emotion.

I can also understand that a lot of white radicals could just end up leaving the movement, being absorbed into the wider capitalist system of America. However I don't think that's a death knell for socialism out here, just as it wasn't for the Russians of The Empire.

 No.689334

>>689146
The purpose of patriotism is to correct that which is wrong.

 No.689343

>>689146
Based take Comrade, you have the only correct stance in a thread filled with apologetics for the U$ Empire disguised as “Socialism with American Characteristics”, LOL. This article by Black Red Guard provides the Marxist-Leninist-Maoist analysis on what strategy a Socialist Revolution should take in dealing with the unique nature of Settler-Colonialism in the Prison house of nations know as the U$ https://redvoice.news/defeat-us-imperialism-liberate-the-inner-colonies/ .

 No.689353

File: 1642049674007.png (480.53 KB, 468x601, hinterland.PNG)

>>689296
>The Battle of Blair Mountain, Kent State Massacre, the Bonus Army Conflict, Johnstown Flood, and Haymarket Massacre were all acts of horrific violence directed against America's own citizens by its state however.
Also don't forget MK Ultra, COINTELPRO, Ludlow Massacre, First Red Scare, repression of Bacon's, Shay's and Whiskey rebellions, etc. Not to mention the general poverty, suffering etc. that comes with being a member of an exploited class. Sakaioids would have you believe that the state wasn't directing violence against the proletariat as a whole, but it very obviously did, even if colonized/racialized people had it the worst.

 No.689375

>>688610
>Young Americans interested in achieving Socialism in our country.
>our country
You clearly aren't from the US going by your grammar and writing style, so what's the point of this thread?

 No.689427

>>689375
First time I've ever been told I'm not an American. I was born and raised here, my family's been American since at least independence time.

 No.689600

It is telling that when considering the problems of the present day and near future, leftists are perpetually looking back into the past. Your average American has no clue about the laundry list of strikes, massacres, atrocities etc. committed to their ancestors decades or centuries ago. It's ancient history that has no bearing on current day political strategy. Likewise whatever pre-modern political legacy of the founding fathers and the colonization of America has is entirely irrelevant to the composition of the modern US state.

 No.689609

Yes, they are stuck in the Anglo box

 No.689830

>>689146
Based take, this guy gets it.

 No.689836

>>689146
>anprim flag
>actually has a good take
based, well done anon

 No.691167

>>689088
Cali's flag already had the star or not?

 No.691183

>>689600
100%
>>689146
This post reeks of american exceptionalism and absolves the author of understanding the contemporary conditions of the US by taking refuge in its well known, horrible, but distant past.

 No.691219

>>689343
>Black Red Guard

Really? You're listening to that idiotic burger "Maoist"?

I think the issue I have with western Maoists is they care much more about “revolution” and very little about serving the people which is why many of them hate Deng and Xi.

 No.691347

>>691219
Is he “Idiotic” to you because he dares to call out Dengist China as a Capitalist, Imperialist, and Fascist state, along with opposing the Settler-Colonialist U$ Empire and advocating for the Self-Determination of New Afrika, Aztlan, and the First Nations after a future Socialist Revolution? Because if you think these things are “Idiotic” then you should GTFO and go back to some Dengist/Duginist MAGAtard “Alternative” media website like the “Moon of Alabama”, the “Unz Review”, or “The Saker”, that practices Orientalist Qanon (instead of Trump being the sole savior of humanity, Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin jointly take that role with Trump as the secret agent helping the “Based” Eastern Imperialists vanquish the “Degenerate” Western Imperialists), LOL.

 No.691387

>>691347
Yep, we've got a Sakai brained schizo here, as well as our resident "Eco-Socialist" here. And nice of you to call me a "MAGAtard" when I never talked about Trump at all and think he's an idiot.

Read Hinterland and actually learn something about the current situation in America and stop thinking it's still the 1950's.

 No.691463

>>691347
>advocating for the Self-Determination of New Afrika, Aztlan, and the First Nations after a future Socialist Revolution?
Not that these should be opposed but people here really overestimate the enthusiasm to participate in some hypothetical quasi-balkan ethnostate federation, especially with the somewhat delusional condition that all cumskins will be returning to EVROPA.

 No.691476

>>691387
>Read Hinterlands!
<See, now that whites are also facing poverty, now the situation is finally truly bad, shit was just peachy and clean when neoliberalism was only destroying blacks and latinos!

 No.691477

>>689334
The purpose of patriotism is to take pride in that which you know is wrong
The purpose of nationalism is to deny that it is even wrong

 No.691479

>>691463
I'm Scots/Northern English. Please don't send me back to EVROPA. I've got epigenetic trauma, whenever I hear some piece of shit talking with some Londoner Queen's English accent, I feel a bizarre kind of rage.

 No.691484

>>691476
t. Person who clearly hasn't read Hinterland

 No.691492

>>691463
If you read the article I posted, you would know that it is not advocating for all Whites to return to Europe, but is instead supporting the Self-Determination of New Afrika, Aztlan, and the First Nations, in regions that are already majority Black (The Black Belt), Chicano/Mestizo (The Hispanic Southwest), and Native American (various Native American Reservations) respectively.

 No.691499

>>691484
I just think it’s funny
You people demand we “read Hinterlands”, but have you ever given half a fuck about black proles being dispossessed of housing in urban centers (gentrification)? Did you ever give a fuck that black proles were the first to be kicked out of unions, kicked out of jobs, and torn away from industrial labor to be cast down to lumpen Hell, prison slavery, or wage slaving in the service sector?
Black proles were the very first victims of neoliberalism left to fucking rot while white labor aristocrats cheered and cried tears of joy as that piece of shit Reagan took power, and yet I never see you people discuss the monumental collapse of their conditions of life. It’s always just “Muh poor ruraloids” with you.

 No.691536

>>691499
This. The White Working Class dug their grave the day they started voting for Corporate Neoliberal Republicans (Reagan, both Bushes, and especially Trump dominated this demographic, which in alliance with the White Petit Bourgeois Suburbanites were the base that propelled them into the White House) due to irrational fear of “Le scary Black Man”, LOL.

 No.691549

File: 1642197987354-0.jpg (107.59 KB, 1024x512, Ej073xEXcAAf6ME.jpg)

File: 1642197987354-1.jpg (358.01 KB, 1123x1476, 402_1.jpg)

File: 1642197987354-2.jpg (110.7 KB, 936x936, SocialismDemocracy.jpg)

>>691499
>You people demand we “read Hinterlands”, but have you ever given half a fuck about black proles being dispossessed of housing in urban centers (gentrification)? Did you ever give a fuck that black proles were the first to be kicked out of unions, kicked out of jobs, and torn away from industrial labor to be cast down to lumpen Hell, prison slavery, or wage slaving in the service sector?
Yes, actually.

 No.691550

>>691499
>have you ever given half a fuck about black proles being dispossessed of housing in urban centers (gentrification)? Did you ever give a fuck that black proles were the first to be kicked out of unions, kicked out of jobs, and torn away from industrial labor to be cast down to lumpen Hell, prison slavery, or wage slaving in the service sector?
Yes. Where have you been? Opposition to segregated unions dates back to the fucking IWW of the 1910s, advocacy for a black self determination goes back to the CPUSA of the 30s. Why are you talking as if white socialists in America are just now becoming aware of racism? The point of telling people to read Hinterland is that it thoroughly debunks the myths that white proles have been shielded from the effects of neoliberalism, that they don't suffer horrifically under capitalism, and that declassed white labour aristocrats are turning to fascism. It's essentially an antidote to Sakaism. It's aim isn't to suggest that racialized people don't have it worse, but to point out the extent to which their interests align with those of white workers.

 No.691553

>>691549
>>691550
I don’t mean you as in the CPUSA, I meant “you” as in the population on this board
We both know this board had a Hinterlands thread for months but has it ever had a single thread about gentrification in America’s urban centers and the utter collapse of black incomes from the 80s to the 2010s, with the collapse accelerating every decade?

 No.691557

File: 1642198255512.pdf (843.17 KB, 180x255, towards independence.pdf)

All must be shilled to about my book

 No.691560

>>691557
Mate
Why did you take a highly personalized (as in, only used by you) internet meme and turn it into a book?

 No.691561

>>691553
Literally who are you even yelling at? This supposed group of /leftypol/ers who support prison slavery and Reagan's union busting is a figment of your imagination

 No.691562

>>691553
>I don’t mean you as in the CPUSA, I meant “you” as in the population on this board
The population of this board also cheered the George Floyd protests, constantly urged them to become more radical, constantly expresses support for movements like the BPP, regularly tells off /pol/tards, etc.
>but has it ever had a single thread about gentrification in America’s urban centers and the utter collapse of black incomes from the 80s to the 2010s, with the collapse accelerating every decade?
Idk about those issues specifically, but it's definitely had threads talking about racism and issues which especially affect black or other racialized people like police brutality, prison industrial complex, etc.

 No.691565

>>691561
He does that every day

 No.691573

>>691565
Why would someone spend their time and energy trying to be a wrecker on an imageboard with like fifty users
He better at least be getting paid for that shit, otherwise it's just embarrassing

 No.691577

>>691561
There’s not a group of leftypolers that do that, just think it’s funny how nobody’s ever sitting around theorizing about the conditions of deeply impoverished American blacks forced out of places their families have lived in for decades so labor aristocrat whites (le dreaded PMC) can take their homes, a process that is a large part of why the police forces in the states became so heavily militarized and why so many black people I know tell me they know their neighborhood is fucked (as in, most people will be forced out in a few years to a decade) once they start seeing constant cop patrols
>>691562
> The population of this board also cheered the George Floyd protests, constantly urged them to become more radical, constantly expresses support for movements like the BPP, regularly tells off /pol/tards, etc.
Yea, but let’s be honest fam, the biggest protests in US history and one of the few revolutionary leninist groups in US history are sort of impossible for a leftist forum to just ignore
> Idk about those issues specifically, but it's definitely had threads talking about racism and issues which especially affect black or other racialized people like police brutality, prison industrial complex, etc.
I honestly just think the process of gentrification and blacks being the first to get sacrificed on the neoliberal altar matter much, much more
Black people were taken from being by and large a demographic representing an industrial proletariat to being turned into lumpens and service workers (service if you’re lucky), all the police system really does is enforce this particular present arrangement. And yeah, sure, neoliberalism eventually sacrificed plenty of whites after they proudly stood for Reagan, but the thing is, as a demographic enough of them were placed in relatively comfy positions such as white collar office jobs to hold this off for a long time, to hold off any sort of explosion or any radical shift in their political views
Idk if you know this, but when deindustrialization originally began, many people were entirely for it and there was fucktons of media about guys (usually, but not always white) wanting to “escape” the terrible awful no good very bad unionized factory job his father and grandfather had, when the tide somewhat turned against the white collar job shit, it wasn’t for reindustrializing, but because white collar wage cuckery was seen as dull and boring too. You can’t ignore that for many Americans, I think even the majority, the 80s wasn’t a time of apocalyptic horror we understand it to be, but a “revitalization”, when that particular generation of labor aristos could enjoy what they saw as a relatively idyllic existence in their suburbs while they knew the urban centers turned into a hellhole
It’s not so simple as “Reagan came and fucked over ALL workers” because he didn’t, his policies were a Sword of Damocles, eventually they doomed everyone but it was not evident to most in the beginning, and still American blacks have faced the worst of the collapse, even in this century.

 No.691578

>>691573
You only think I’m a “wrecker” because you not only genuinely think you’re above criticism, you also never ever want to hear criticism anyway

Absolutely zero self-crit, this board wants zero self-crit
Why not just mod a subreddit then?

 No.691580

File: 1642199257575-1.jfif (426.21 KB, 1486x1037, skid_row.jfif)

>>691553
I mean not to leap to the defense of the PRC's Online Ministry of Basket-Weaving Enthusiasts here, but I would argue that America has a dual-faced character, which reflects the fascination with Hinterlands and other Rural subjects.
Most of us on here with a stable internet access, I'd say, live in urban and suburban parts of the country. To normies, our idea of "rural" is really just "suburbs with a lot more trees." But when it comes to real rural poverty (something which isn't necessarily color based as there are still rural African-American communities) we're woefully naive.

And not to reveal too much about myself, but I'd say my radicalizing moment was actually traveling up North, into real Rural America, and witnessing firsthand the poverty experienced there.

I went to a little town on the southern border of Oregon. Nice enough place, though the only form of entertainment seemed to be going down to a gully that the town dumped its garbage in and firing off assault rifles (it was the first time I fired a Kalashnikov, beautiful weapon.)

I saw children running around in the nude across gravel roads.
I saw "houses" built out of ramshackle garbage collected from the nearby dump.
I ate greasy food at a "burger place" that was built into a converted mobile home and covered in bible verses.
I learned they had no police force of any kind, and that the law was handled by the locals themselves: a group of methed up teenagers that beat an elderly woman within an inch of her life and were partying in her house only stopped after a combat rifle tore through the thin walls and blew the head off one of them.
I met a family of black people, nice enough folks, that I learned earned a reputation for complaining about "N*ggers coming up from California voting in Democrats."

Sure I've woken up to crack addicts screaming outside of my house in the suburbs. Sure I pass by trashy RVs and tent cities on my way to work. But this was my first encounter with rural poverty, because America is a necklace of cities with everything else between them some kind of dystopian horror-show we like to pretend doesn't exist.

Here in California, I drove out into the desert, on the border with Nevada, and saw the kind of poverty out there. Burned out husks of RVs that tweakers cooked crystal meth in. A homeless man so thoroughly cooked by the sun it looked like his skin had scabbed over and he was some kind of charred zombie. Houses with roofs collapsed in and impromptu walls formed around them from rusted metal, torn from the carcasses of burned out cars. Half of the directions my friend (who was out doing wildlands firefighting) gave me was some variation of "turn left at the pile of used needles and go past the truck tire."

You live in urban areas, and I hate to say it but you grow numb to the kind of ambient poverty you witness everyday, especially when you feel like you have no power over it. To a great deal of urbanites witnessing the constant dystopia that seems to be rural America, it's something new and interesting and something they've not yet grown accustomed to being unable to fix.

 No.691590

>>691578
I think you're being SO intellectually dishonest by suggesting that there's a serious number of people here who don't care about black workers that I can only imagine this behavior coming from someone consciously trying to wreck shit.

I apologize for not considering the possibility that you're legitimately this retarded.

 No.691594

>>691580
Good post, you should expand this a bit and publish it on New Multitude

 No.691595

>>691577
>Black people were taken from being by and large a demographic representing an industrial proletariat to being turned into lumpens and service workers
That happened to everybody. Even if it happened to black people first, we're talking differences of a few years here. White industrial communities were already being hollowed out in the 90s.
>as a demographic enough of them were placed in relatively comfy positions such as white collar office jobs to hold this off for a long time
What comfort is that to the ones who weren't so lucky? Are they supposed to feel better because some people who look like them are doing okay? Part of the problem with talking about whites "as a demographic" is that it obscures the actual racial makeup of poverty in America. Poor white people outnumber poor black people, they always have, even at the height of postwar prosperity. There are more white than black people murdered by police, more white people on foodstamps, in prison, unemployed, below the poverty line, etc. They may be underrepresented, but as I said, what comfort is it to a white prole suffering under capitalism that other white people he has no connection to are doing okay? America's working class has always been multiracial, and thus so have those who suffered.

 No.691604

>>691580
Know what
I may not fully agree with you, CPUSA anon, but I do respect you
You always maintain your composure and remain rational and engaging in any discussion
I will say, I am from one of the urban centers and have always lived here. NYC to be exact, big enough city that I can say the name and not doxx myself
It is like a dystopian hell here, to the point that the more rural areas I’ve seen look nicer
I see desperate homeless people almost every day on the trains, constant decay everywhere, closed up shops, trash everywhere, almost every place you go feels like a crime is just behind the corner, it’s a real nightmare. I’ve seen the neighborhood I grew up in get gentrified to shit to the point that the last time I visited 2 years ago I saw not a single black or latino there, and this was in fucking Harlem, downtown Harlem, but still. My own father was forced to leave a home our family has had since the 70s because they jacked the rent up real high. Honestly the cities are like a nightmare hell by now, but I guess everywhere in this country is. Even Downtown Manhattan which used to look like some sparkling palace city freed from the rot of the rest of the city looks like a gross shithole now, I feel like I’m gonna get stabbed going there now and I live in fuckin Brooklyn.
>>691590
I’m not intellectually dishonest at all, don’t care =/= hatred
And consciously wreck what exactly? Really, what is there to wreck on a tiny board where people are always arguing anyway that I’ve personally been using (at least the various iterations) for about three years now?
>>691595
> what comfort is it to a white prole suffering under capitalism that other white people he has no connection to are doing okay?
I think the problem is, while it provides zero material comfort, it’s clearly had enough of a psychological effect for them to (for the most part) marry themselves by the hip to the US Empire, its military (which drains resources that can help them), its general ideology, and the nation as a unit.
The question is always, what would it actually take for them to choose an alliance with non-white workers for a communist struggle over the American Empire in the hopes of top-down reprieve? Because, as you say, America has imposed much suffering on them, yet they are fiercely loyal to America anyway.

 No.691650

>CPUSA Anon
Filtered

 No.691695

>>691650
Consistently one of the best posters on the board, easily in the top 5. Filtering him is a surefire way to out yourself a brainet.

 No.691780

>>691604
I appreciate the compliment, and for what it's worth you seem to be a terrific writer, and the passion you display is self-evident, even if I disagree with you here and there.

America's rapidly becoming a country of the very rich and the very poor with a rapidly dissipating middle class falling between the margins. Everyone acknowledges it to a degree, though /pol/ calls it "Brazilification" or some other equally stupid term and blames it on "diversity."

I'll admit between the two of us you undoubtedly have had less from the start. My family's history is the old dream of WASP-gentry and our rapidly diminishing fortunes. We came here as indentured servants, purchased a farm, as America expanded west we fought in the civil war against the confederacy, purchased a railroad company, and then frittered away our fortunes: going from executives to lawyers and doctors, and then lawyers and doctors to regional retail mangers, then regional retail managers to local managers, and finally today we're just lower-middle class grocery clerks.
As far as early memories go, it was less being taught that the American Dream wouldn't exist because of my heritage, so much as grappling with a depressive idea that your entire life is going to be a struggle against one long toilet flush down the sewers.

When I was no older than six I had to run to the phone because the cracked out roofer we hired at a family friend's recommendation was threatening her over pay.
My parents would get into screaming fits over bills, with my dad throwing shit and smashing doors, my mom would spend her time staring over all the money we owed and sob in front of me.
At the same time, I had wealthy Aunts and Uncles we'd visit, and I'd see just how stark the difference was. They'd get trips to Paris for the Summer, we'd sleep out in the living room because our Air Conditioning broke down and half our house heated up like an oven.
My family would try to help out this homeless vietnam veteran on occasion, if in part to be good Catholics, and I'd see firsthand how poverty affected people. Then I'd go up to Beverley Hills because a cousin was celebrating his birthday there, and I'd see a bunch of Ralph Lauren cunts joke that the guy sleeping outside some luxury car dealership was probably dead.
America is rapidly falling apart, the bottom half of this pyramid scheme of a country is shattering, and the wealthy have reinforced walls and armed guards all to protect gaudy McMansions and crappy lawns.

 No.691782

>>691604
I apologize for calling you a wrecker earlier, that wasn't fair. I was overreacting to my first impression instead of reading your posts carefully

 No.691817

>>691604
>I think the problem is, while it provides zero material comfort, it’s clearly had enough of a psychological effect for them to (for the most part) marry themselves by the hip to the US Empire, its military (which drains resources that can help them), its general ideology, and the nation as a unit.
I'm not even sure if that's true. Generally poor people in the US are apolitical. I'm not sure how many white people on food stamps have a strong commitment to the American Empire. The middle class (many of whom are workers) is a different story of course, but I'm not talking about them.

 No.691856

>>688610
Anarchism has much more potential in USA.

 No.691859

>>691856
They wish

 No.691885

>>691859
Libertarianism is just theorylet expression of individualist anarchism.

 No.692089

>>691856
More like left libertarianism rather than purely anarchism. All the hijacking done by the libertarian party can just be hijacked right back.

 No.692125

>>691856

i wish

 No.692933

>>691856
Anarchism is more popular, arguably (I believe "Conquest of Bread" was more looked up than "State and Revolution" according to Google Trends out here) but I'd say that doesn't correlate to potential, the opposite in fact.

Anarchism's historical failure has been its inability to successfully launch and protect a revolution. I don't say this to insult Anarchists, it's just a historical fact. While Anarchism has had some small scale successes, it can't efficiently capitalize on those gains, nor organize a strategic push. CHAZ/CHOP is a decent example of that, hats off for making a squattopia, but it was undermined by liberals almost immediately and essentially boxed in and sieged by the cops.

As it stands, I'd say Anarchism as it presently exists is an albatross around the neck of American Socialism. It's filtered in an American context through the individual, and thus it's more likely to result in narcissistic media personalities like Agent Kochinski being the locus of fan groups working only towards their own self-marketing than it is to form decentralized Soviets.

 No.692945

>>692933
One thing America sorely lacks is a synthesis of socialism tailored to American conditions, not just in terms of analysis but also in terms of its messaging, adaptation to America's political and historical context, etc. I'd say the IWW came the closest to this in its heyday, and the CPUSA at one time did a pretty good job too, though idk what you lot are up to these days. Say what you want about Caleb Maupin, but some sort of SWAC is sorely needed, even if his specific concept of it is flawed.

 No.695759

>>688610
>Rightly or wrongly, Jefferson saw the rise of industrial capitalism as a horrific threat to American liberalism. In part because he understood that if a man is dependent on another man for his way of life (as the Proletariat is under Industrial Capitalism) then the idea of a democracy based on reason between legally equal individuals would collapse in on itself.
>Our ever-expanding territory had smothered aspects of the class struggle for decades. This was because it seemed entirely possible, for a brief period of time, for Americans to have a measure of individual control over their circumstances. The Prole could go west and homestead, and the modern evolution of that thought was a 20th century economy where the petite-bourgeois replaced the rugged Homesteader.
Their was no industrial capitalism on the frontier, the frontier which existed from 1607-1900. This is over two thirds of American history. During this period of time, in some areas thier was a frontier which had different class relations from those that are typical of capitalism.

 No.695839

File: 1642448305381.png (525 KB, 1038x488, 69846890458609456.png)

>>692933
>CHAZ/CHOP is a decent example of that, hats off for making a squattopia, but it was undermined by liberals almost immediately and essentially boxed in and sieged by the cops.
I think anarchists often lack a sense of history and think in idealist terms. That's also a smart observation about getting boxed in. Same thing happened to Occupy where they got boxed in at these urban camps. A similar problem affected the Black Panther Party where they would mount pitched defenses of party offices, which was a tactical mistake because there was no way they could hold out when facing a protracted siege. I think black organizers have learned from that mistake. (A related mistake they made back then was having no clear distinction between party work and underground work which gave the cops an easy excuse to carry out raids on their offices under the guise of hunting fugitives, arms, etc.)

I think it's worth noting that the biggest example of getting boxed in in 2020 was in Seattle (ahem) which is one of the whitest major cities in the country. I don't say that to be insulting either, it's just a fact.

The relationship between POC and white anarchist / Occupy movements has also been interesting since the anarchists behind the general assembly process and the consensus-based form of occupation privilege voices of color and stress that they try to take into account racism and systematic privilege, but it's obvious that it hasn't worked as countless stories of racism, seclusion of minorities and more radical voices have been prevalent everywhere despite the "leaderless" leaders who seem to be majority white males. Not to mention the shooting in CHAZ. The responses from already existing organizations of POC and existing struggles in POC neighborhoods have been lukewarm at best.

What does this show? That well intentioned white people are not enough to eliminate racism and in fact may be even worse because occupiers get extremely offended if they get called racist or privileged? Or that the movement has always been a reformist, utopian waste of time?

 No.695857

File: 1642449387713.jpg (164.73 KB, 1199x828, JAVLO6u.jpg)

>>695839
fuck off, black nationalism is a skitzo ideology

 No.695870

>>695839
>I think anarchists often lack a sense of history and think in idealist terms. That's also a smart observation about getting boxed in.

Eh, it ain't even my observation really. As Chairman Mao once said:
>"Keep men, lose land; land can be taken again. Keep land, lose men; land and men are both lost"

In regards to the issues of racism, seclusion of minorities, and (if we're talking Occupy) rampant sexual harassment, I think again this shows the failure of the Anarchist model of leaderless organization, at least in the U.S.

No one wants to think they're going to turn a blind eye to corruption, even if a friend does it. Everyone likes to imagine they have iron-clad principles or lines they wont cross. I think the sad realization when growing up is that most people, sadly, can't cling onto whatever individual code they claim to believe in. When the arbiter of right or wrong is just the individual, then they can use any kind of mental gymnastics to justify what they're doing to themselves (if not others.)

Without an organized apparatus with a monopoly on violence to mete out justice in its cool rationality, then you have law or leadership by Charisma. I think this is especially notable with bread tube and the rise of YouTube Anarchists.

As stupid as he is, I'm decently certain Agent Kochinski isn't consciously racist, if you need an example, but at the end of the day he's still a white dude with a small cult of personality surrounding him, and if he clashes with a black guy over leadership, he'll throw mud and insult to get what he wants. And when attendance and action is entirely voluntary, nothing prevents the losing side from taking their ball and going home. Especially in America where you could leave CHAZ with relative ease and binge Netflix or Pornhub.

A strong organization should be one that can withstand a leadership struggle with all people involved still maintaining unified action.

>>695759
That was mostly my point. Jefferson wanted an America composed entirely of smallholding farmers, and he saw the frontier as a way to make such a thing a reality.

>>692945
The Party understands the importance of tailoring Socialism for an American context. To some extent it's also why we don't parade around with pictures of Stalin and Mao despite respecting them as intelligent and dedicated revolutionaries.

 No.695879

>>695857
I'm not one. I'm saying there's a serious contradiction when "horizontalist" anarchists – who are also enthralled by liberal identity politics btw – end up doming a black kid in the middle of their autonomous zone that's ostensibly about protesting men with guns who think they're authority figures shooting black kids. There's just something *wrong* with that.

And everyone knows with anarchists pride themselves on not having leaders or cohesive structures, but there's always some dude or group of dudes who run the show, but they're blocked by their own ideology from acknowledging that those dudes are in charge – which is more akin to a "totalitarian" state of organization than whatever they say about Marxists.

Or look at the chauvinism from so many self-professed "anarchists." There are so many examples of it.

This guy nails it here:

>>695870
>Without an organized apparatus with a monopoly on violence to mete out justice in its cool rationality, then you have law or leadership by Charisma. I think this is especially notable with bread tube and the rise of YouTube Anarchists.
There's another good point here too:

>A strong organization should be one that can withstand a leadership struggle with all people involved still maintaining unified action.

Strong orgs can handle debate. Too much conformity is a bit boring. But I think the absence of organization leads to the various mistakes that keep happening.

 No.695881

>>695870
Also you know who else built a movement around Charisma? That's right

 No.695884

"Uphold Racism-Anarchism thought"

 No.695959

>>695870
>A strong organization should be one that can withstand a leadership struggle with all people involved still maintaining unified action.
This is an interesting read kind of relating to what you said

https://illwill.com/vital-cells

 No.695983

>>695870
>The Party understands the importance of tailoring Socialism for an American context
What's your opinion on Maupin and "socialist patriotism" and "Socialism with American Characteristics"? Do you think he's actually chasing right deviations? How does his stance on the national question in America differ from that of the party?

 No.696076

>>695983
>Socialism with American Characteristics
Any American Socialism will need a different economic and political framwork then anything ever seen before because
A) No socialist revolution has occurred in a post-industrial digital age society
B) The Soviet model clearly collapsed, therefore a different model is needed if one wishes to not repeat their failures
Both these points are also true for western europe and east asia

 No.696085

>>695983
A socialist revolution in amerikkka will never happen. The goal for socialists should be to accelerate its collapse so that revolution may flourish in imperialised countries.

 No.696338

The Tulcel Menace

 No.696372

They are stuck in the Anglo box

 No.696415

>>691560
APLICAR EL SHAYISMO ANPRIMFAG

 No.696467

>>695983
Caleb Maupins “Socialism with American Characteristics” is essentially Fascism with red paint just like the ruling ideology of Dengist China, and anyone who takes him and his gibberish seriously is either a gullible idiot who needs to read more Theory, or a poltard in disguise who is trying to lure Marxists into embracing a Far-Right ideology. Finally, anyone who opposes the stance of Lenin and Stalin in support of the Self-Determination of Oppressed Nations, and who blames the USSRs National Delimitation policy for its eventual collapse, is promoting a vulgar bastardization and deflection of the true reason for the USSRs collapse, the Revisionist clique that seized power under Khrushchev and allowed the Liberal Gorbachev to complete the final dissolution of the Socialist system, along with parroting the Reactionary Great Russian Chauvinist narrative (promoted by Putin, Dugin, and other Eurasianist Vlasovite Fascists in modern Capitalist Russia) that Self-Determination for the Oppressed Nations (ie. Ukrainians, Belarusians, Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Turkmens, Kyrgyz, Tajiks, Armenians, Azerbaijanis, Georgians, Moldovans, Estonians, Lithuanians, Latvians, etc.) of the former Russian Empire in their own SSRs was a “bad thing” (despite the fact that this was the policy of Lenin and Stalin that helped create the stability that allowed the USSR to become a superpower).

 No.696766

>Online, there are large swathes of Young Americans interested in achieving Socialism in our country
Stopped reading right here.
Most Americans online are weebs or gamers who are either apolitical larpers or rightoids.

 No.696778

>>696467
>Finally, anyone who opposes the stance of Lenin and Stalin in support of the Self-Determination of Oppressed Nations
He doesn't oppose it though, he's said multiple times that he supports self determination for black people, indigenous nations, etc.


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