Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 21:52:31 No. 691511
What if the worst part about being a janitor is the shit tier compensation and the fact that everyone treats you like some lowly untouchable piece of shit?
What if cleaning garbage isn’t inherently miserable and not everyone is fundamentally opposed to the idea of it but rather the aforementioned shit wage and shit treatment?
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 21:52:38 No. 691512
I'll fuck you till you love me, faggot.
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 21:55:47 No. 691526
>>691511 >What if cleaning garbage isn’t inherently miserable and not everyone is fundamentally opposed to the idea of it but rather the aforementioned shit wage and shit treatment?
It's inherently shitty, mindless, filthy and low autism score tier. A janitor's expendable. It's also unfair to reward him the same as professor or programmer.
(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 21:56:31 No. 691531
I like kitchen work because it's got lots of dead hours and I get to drink on the job with zero repurcussions. Under socialism, I would do the same thing with more money and healthcare.
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 21:56:52 No. 691533
based and tysonpilled
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 21:57:10 No. 691534
There should be incentives for less desirable jobs, but hopefully we could also educate people to actually clean after themselves for the most part
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 21:57:28 No. 691535
fpbp and /thread
My grandpa was a janitor during the socialist era and literally had no problem with it, you got a good wage and could actually live pretty alright for a relatively simple job. One of the first things old dudes here like to note about live back then was how clean everything was.
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 22:04:40 No. 691546
>>691526 >Why would anyone just choose to be a janitor it sucks so hard! <Well what if we just didn’t treat janitors like subhumans and paid them a decent compensation for their necessary labor? > NO JANNOIDS ARE DIRTY SUBHUMAN ANIMALS THAT DESERVE A BARELY SURVIVABLE WAGE, UNLIKE HECKIN BASED PROGRAMMING BROS WHO EXIST TO DO little more than increase corporate control over everyone’s lives
See, OP, you answered your original question
Can’t wait until the jannies ban you and yeet this stupid pointless thread
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 22:17:38 No. 691570 >>691526
It wouldn't so bad if it wasn't for fuckers like you. Besides you get to listen to music all day and at the end of your shift you've physically achieved something, which is a lot better than a lot of jobs I could name.
And hey look, maybe you get to drive a fun machine like anon says. Even when I just worked at a supermarket we had a floor cleaner machine we pushed around, it was kinda neat.
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 22:26:53 No. 691579
>>691570 > It wouldn't so bad if it wasn't for fuckers like you. Besides you get to listen to music all day and at the end of your shift you've physically achieved something, which is a lot better than a lot of jobs I could name.
Legit I wouldn’t mind being a jannie if they didn’t treat you like some lowly fucking dog for being one, I always think about how much more bearable wage cucking could be if you could at least put in your headphones during the shift
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 22:28:53 No. 691582
I also think a job should be fun, or at least just nice. Even if it's just little things you get pleasure from. Jobs don't have to be (and shouldn't be) grand uber-important things. Sometimes it can be nice and gratifying to just vacuum a pile of dust up and listen to the shit rattle through the vacuum tube. I personally work in a clothing warehouse as a receiver. My job consists of lifting boxes and then putting them down. It's not a glorious job at all, and sometimes it sucks and can be very hard on my body. But I get to drive around on a Raymond electric pallet jack which is sick as hell, I get a lot of exercise, and sometimes I can just throw in my headphones and just listen to shit while I scan.
I don't think a programmer is better than me, and I don't think a programmer deserves more than me. If not for me, you wouldn't have clothes and they would be rotting on a dock somewhere. I can certainly live without the next Instagram update, fucking loser.
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 22:39:36 No. 691605
>>691526 >It's also unfair to reward him the same as professor or programmer.
It sure is. As a programmer and former academic professional, they deserve more compensation than me in either of those roles.
Anonymous ## Janitor 2022-01-14 (Fri) 22:43:28 No. 691611
I wasn't coerced, I just think it's a shitty jobs that someone has to do to keep the place usable.
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 22:51:45 No. 691619
Workers will be responsible for keeping their own workplaces clean. Simple as.
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:02:05 No. 691631
>>691508 >In a communist society, where everyone enjoys good education and equal opportunity, why would anyone choose to become a janitor?
Because there will be a rifle pointed at their back.
The easiest and most efficient solutions are most likely to be used by any system.
Anonymous ## Mod 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:03:53 No. 691633
Back in your cage!
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:05:49 No. 691637
>>691631 >The easiest and most efficient solutions are most likely to be used by any system.
So why don't they do this under capitalism?
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:06:31 No. 691639
When it's not about money it will be about the importance of that role. Aside from nuisance of a mess there is health hazards that come with not cleaning especially in places you eat and hospitals. It wouldn't be looked down so much because it's not a low pay job not a lesser socioeconomic grouping. Also jobs will stop existing to the degree they do now. You don't need a special education to be a janitor so everyone can be the janitor every once in a while. You know have some responsibility and not make a mess and help clean up if you have the time and energy. This is just for things that cant be automated easily though some janitorial processes can be done by machines or materials that self sanitize.
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:08:48 No. 691644
Lmao and here comes the lolbert just ignoring everyone saying
>Because they can get better compensation and not be treated like animals
You literally can’t imagine janitors being treated like human beings and being shown the respect they deserve, burgers really are orcs holy shit
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:09:23 No. 691645
They do, they employ the most desperate losers for scraps-wage coerced by the threat of homelessness.
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:10:59 No. 691647
>Since janitors are subhumans, surely the only way communists could ever fill this completely essential and vital role is to literally force people at gunpoint to do it? Like, that’s how they did garbage collection in the USSR, right?
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:11:13 No. 691651
>>691644 >Um… they will voluntarily choose a very shitty job, out of all other comfier ones and equally rewarded, because… BECAUSE THEY JUST WILL OK??
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:12:26 No. 691654
You know in USSR janitors were still payed with wages, had to pay rent or face homelessness and had shittier living standard than other professions, right? It doesnt answer OPs question at all.
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:14:47 No. 691657
Literally what makes sanitation a shittier job than other jobs aside from being treated like shit and getting paid like shit? Why is it inherently worse than spending all day every day in an office sitting in front of a computer with a manager you despise where you need to put up with bullshit office politics every day and must always look busy and totally focused on “work” every hour of the shift (outside of lunch) and also need to be continuously “striving” towards some nebulous imposed goal and will sometimes almost certainly be given work to do even when you go home?
Or are you just a petty booj cunt and can’t even imagine what actual office work is like let alone any other job?
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:15:42 No. 691659
I just found a solution: the profession of janitors would be done by the same people otherwise put into gulags. In USSR these people were forced at gunpoint to mine rocks in gulags, hell its already socialist approved!
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:18:22 No. 691663
Thing about idealism is that some individuals betraying their material interests doesnt disprove the statistical tendency of people to do the opposite overall.
You know, the whole marxist view of history is people acting in their selfish self-interest. Thats how you get from one stage of historical economic development to another. Thats also how you get workers revolution in the first place. Not because of some self-sacrifice bullshit of couple utopists.
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:21:04 No. 691666
Ah so by "rifles" you just meant "the threat of homelessness"? Sure makes socialism sound better than capitalism then, since they both have that but one at least rewards you with the fruits of your labor.
>>691651 >equally rewarded
And why should they be equally rewarded? Nothing more economically sensible than incentives for labor less people want to do.
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:21:52 No. 691669
Janitorial work can be shared by people in the workplace or place of study. Otherwise, deep cleaning services are not badly paid nor badly seen.
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:23:19 No. 691673
>>691657 >Literally what makes sanitation a shittier job than other jobs
Because you move A LOT, you have to clean disgusting icky things like some revisionist peeing all over the bathroom stall and its overall soulcrushing.
Compare with entering some numbers into microsoft excel.
Fact is this: you need a janitor in every workplace building and there wont be enough self-sacrificing volunteers dedicating their lifetimes to cover this immense need. Suddenly after your revolution youll be desperate to solve this somehow ASAP. Two solutions exist: you either give them extra rewards to make it worth it or youll coerce them. In both cases youll betray your beliefs. Now youre fucked.
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:24:55 No. 691676
>>691673 >In both cases youll betray your beliefs
Again you fucktard, why the hell do you think giving extra rewards for some work is contradictory with socialist principles?
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:25:02 No. 691678
>>691673 >Sanitation is bad because it requires physical activity
>You have to touch icky things
Not everyone is a bitch
>And it’s overall soul crushing
Because people treat you like shit and will directly tell you you’re an inferior person for not working a soul crushing office pencil-pusher type job
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:25:22 No. 691679
>>691666 >And why should they be equally rewarded?
Because to each according to his needs.
To each according to his contribution would be only the lower stage of communism.
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:26:00 No. 691681
Ah so that's why people like you never bathe.
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:26:15 No. 691683
>>691676 >Again you fucktard, why the hell do you think giving extra rewards for some work is contradictory with socialist principles?
Because I have read Marx and OP said communist society.
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:29:04 No. 691691
>>691679 >Because to each according to his needs.
That's only in fully developed communism, where most services would be automated. You yourself were just talking about "right after the revolution".
Nor does the phrase imply people should get only what they need and nothing more. It's consistent with incentives.
>>691683 >Because I have read Marx
No you haven't lol
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:30:20 No. 691692
>>691691 >It's consistent with incentives. >No you haven't lol
Yeah lmao, this conversation has just ended. This is waste of time for me.
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:31:11 No. 691694
No point arguing with someone who hasnt read a single book.
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:32:47 No. 691701 >>691526
A job harsher on worker would be compensated accordingly. Since education is vocational you'd find that "programmers and professors" too are plentiful, but they are also in a lot less demand than janitors. And of course since compensation is not a prize for "outcompeting" your fellow workers, it may very well be that the cushy professor and coder earn closer to the more strenuous job of the janitor. Adequate staffing and technology can be used to help janitors do
work and fix the undesirable jobs to be not so, instead of allocating to these jobs the "failures" of the social darwinist order that have the least bargaining power to refuse miserable working conditions.
Ultimately, everybody knows that jannies
do it for free
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:44:56 No. 691709
Okay, i will try once again for your underage champ brain: giving different incentives for different kinds of jobs to lure in people to do them means you just created a job market. Its a cost-benefit calculation. This kind of rewarding is specifically defined as only lower stage of communism (called as socialism by later marxist authors to distinguish it from upper stage communism, as marx used communism and socialism interchangeably).
So much for communism then, which is what OP asked about.
Im sure you totally didnt get your understanding of marxism from reading imageboard posts and funny images.
proposal 7ko 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:45:44 No. 691711
Everyone shall serve as their own janitors, and have turns at the janitorial duties. After all, the burden of menial labor should be fairly distributed and not be relegated to just one group of persons, and also is to be respected as an important part of the operation of an excellently run socialist society. If this is not feasible in all situations, then, since the role of janitor usually is not particularly desirable, extra pay shall be provided for the job, which is ironically what is supposed to occur under capitalism but rarely does.
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:46:32 No. 691712
Non-autistic people can understand that when OP mentions "communism" he's not talking about fully developed communism, where "jobs" as we know them will not exist, as that would make his post inherently contradictory. You, however, seem to suffer from an overabundance of chromosomes, especially since you have answered your own fucking objections raised in
with the posts you just made (ie admitting that offering extra rewards immediately after revolution does not "betray our beliefs"), probably because getting called out on having never read Marx made you look up what the quote actually means.
In short, kill yourself.
Anonymous 2022-01-14 (Fri) 23:58:24 No. 691720
Shut the fuck up, liberal
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 00:12:05 No. 691733
>>691508 >in a society where workers are valued, why would anybody be a worker?
durr communism is when social mobility, and the easier it is to become a porky, the communister it is
eugenics-kun 2022-01-15 (Sat) 00:14:40 No. 691736
People aren't defined by being "janitor". Most people working shit jobs do them to collect the paycheck, then go home and live their actual life. It's rather curious you seem to believe people should be defined by their specialization, but it makes sense if you understand the eugenicist implications of this managerial thinking. There is a "cult of smart" dependent on the belief that intelligence is a sacred substance available only to a few enlightened, and that the filthy masses must be kept subjugated by the smart ones. It's absurd because these "smart" people are maladaptive and pathetic creatures, just as they were designed to be.
There's a lot of things I'd rather not do, but I prefer not wallowing in shit forever. Eventually, I get around to cleaning the house and realize it's not actually that bad, and it wouldn't be nearly as bad if I didn't let it get to a point where cleaning was absolutely necessary. There are far worse things in the world than janitorial work. The present association of janitors with the underclass is extremely eugenist - rehabilitation for the underclass, if it exists at all, slots them for janitorial work, then tells everyone to hate the janitor for some inexplicable reason, and heap scorn on them far beyond any need to do so. It's one of the triumphs eugenics will keep enforcing, in order to make the eugenic mindset stick in the populace. Eugenics requires an underclass to be constantly punished, forever. Me, on the other hand, I would see just about any work I'm likely to do as morally equivalent to being a janitor, unless I'm asked to be a killer or raper (which I would consider lower and abominable, but eugenist society considers those professions laudable and things that make you "alpha", so there's some values dissonance). Honestly people make so much of this shit. The way I would see it, for all the general duties, there'd be a common "worker" assignment and appropriate pay and hours. This absurd need to divide the workers into gradients is eugenicist and serves no function, when the work involved is not terribly difficult or essentially different. The real distinction is this presumption of intellect, usually for jobs that don't require such an intellect. There's no great difference between janitorial work and working as a factory grunt, or a million other working-class jobs. Part of the trade union movement was emphasizing the distinction between skilled and unskilled workers, and making that gulf into something that distinguished the tradies from other worker scum, and that's why the unions had to be co-opted, so that the establishment of worker gradients would be finalized with compradors in the working class. There are a lot of handymen who don't have any particular specialty or credential. Present society would be far more expensive if such people didn't exist, and it's one of the ways you can possibly get out from under this effort to segregate humanity into permanent eugenic castes, or at least limit it. The eugenist model would have specialist contractors grifting endlessly to extract all the wealth commoners could acquire, and then legislate it so that people can't escape the system.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 00:16:32 No. 691738
Shut up incel or make a point.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 00:19:37 No. 691743
Are you some kind of mental defective? I already did:
You don’t understand what a labor market is.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 00:21:01 No. 691745
You are the one retarded enough to say that luring people into unattractive jobs based on supply-demand principle of incentives is compatible with upper stage communism
HOLY FUCKING SHIT
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 00:21:30 No. 691747
>why would anyone choose Janitor Because it’s an easy entry level job with reasonable pay. Why not?
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 00:22:46 No. 691751
>>691745 >Incentives are the same as supply and demand
The economic illiteracy is strong in this one.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 00:24:30 No. 691754
>>691751 >Satisfying high demand with low supply by increasing compensation to supply has nothing to do with supply and demand
This… has to be trolling.
I cant anymore. I cant.
Nobody is this fucking retarded. This is down syndrome tier.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 00:29:09 No. 691762
Again, this isn’t how S&D or how labor markets operate. This also begs the question of why a communist society wouldn’t try to say rapidly or gradually eliminate that type of labor through automation or making workers (within reason) clean up at work.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 01:33:14 No. 691831
What? Why the fuck jannies have a cap now, jannies are supposed to be anonymous.
We have enough with the mods shitposting around here.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 01:37:33 No. 691835
We could instead coerce people to respect janitors, janitorial activities aren't that bad anymore there's lots of equipment to play around with and cleaning chemicals aren't that harsh anymore. Cleaning and maintenance can bring a sense of accomplishment too. But there is social stigma attached to it, that's driving people away.
It's possible to share a duty like cleaning and not make it a dedicated job, or we could pay out incentives too, just imagine the cleaning lady getting payed just a little bit more than some labor aristocrat that used to look down on her, there would be real surplus enjoyment that would make for ample motivation.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 02:07:06 No. 691868
>>691526 >It's also unfair to reward him the same as professor or programmer.
Why? If you think there might be a problem with skilled workers leaving a region (which would be in a scenario before
and probably not what the OP wanted to talk about), the word you are looking for is
. But why would that be unfair?
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 02:32:08 No. 691898
Because this board is morphing into a díscord server/subreddit more and more with each passing day. Notice how all the threads are always the same flagfags and namefags talking with each other
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 02:33:27 No. 691901
I work as a jannie/groundskeeper thingie, and I do exactly that, just listen to music or podcasts every day, no boss breathing down my neck, getting complements from happy tenants when I clean the area. It's a nice job.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 02:41:01 No. 691911
Don’t you think it has something to do with no longer being one board on a much larger imageboard though?
I mean, leftypol is fucking tiny mate, the last big growth was during the George Floyd protests and if anything it’s probably receded from there
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 03:39:06 No. 691959
socialists shall be clean like the DPRK does.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 03:55:00 No. 691980
Rent was very low in the USSR
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 04:00:47 No. 691985
>>691654 >had to pay rent or face homelessness
Bullshit. It's funny how wagecucks project their own problems at socialism.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 04:03:09 No. 691991
Janny duty instead of jury duty.
I've been in timeshare places that basically do that, each room in the place has a different chore for the week. Room 7 vacuums the place, Room 5 cleans the dishes in the communal kitchen. Not sure how well that would apply to a capitalist corporate workplace where profit comes before health…
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 04:16:28 No. 692000
>>691898 >Notice how all the threads are always the same flagfags and namefags talking with each other
What shit threads do you post in?
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 05:46:39 No. 692081
>>691651 >Switching goal posts
First it was they wouldn’t choose a job where people treat them like shit, next it’s that they wouldn’t be paid enough? Pick a lane
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 08:02:24 No. 692133
In any society you have to force people to do undesirable jobs. It's just how it is.
Socialism just provides better pay and other perks.
eugenics-kun 2022-01-15 (Sat) 08:35:40 No. 692148
I think the concept of working under socialism was historically very different, and had good and bad sides. The bad is that you're pretty much forced to work or else, though there's a lot of malingering going on, but this isn't "bad" except that it creates some consequences for people who really don't want to work or don't believe in what they're doing. At a basic level though, the good is that there is some sense that the society actually wants you for something, and doesn't throw people away for nothing. If you told me all I had to do was show up to work not drunk, without the rigamarole of "choice employment", I wouldn't be that upset. It's the bullshit of working that makes it impossible, and that literally is the stated reason why so many are legally disabled, because the demands of working life were made so ridiculous that large swaths of the population are mental defectives with no hope of rehabilitation, because obligations to show fealty and humiliations are so regular that they literally drive people crazy and give people PTSD. I might not like that I'm basically be dragged to work, but it's better than being dragged through this humiliating process and then dragged into having my life become state property anyway. I probably would not have done well in socialist society, but at least there would have been the possibility that something better was possible. That's not possible in this society, in any realistic sense. Every time I've tried to do that, I've been kicked in the teeth and told I'm crazy for even trying. This is a society of hustling and shitcanning, not a society where anything is actually produced.
Anyway, I'm not opposed to the idea of meritocracy in principle, but it really needs to be a meritocracy that rewards actually doing something rather than some petty conceit people hold. The big problem with this is that, if people can have a dignified existence just being a worker, the "luxuries" you can win are usually to make life less onerous from social obligations, or you have to make increasingly absurd justifications why a few can have so much more, or you have to make petty wealth distinctions into large ones by force. So it's a really difficult balancing act without acknowledging that different classes wind up existing, without the necessary political advancement of the people so that this sort of petty dickering doesn't have to happen. Basically, technocratic society has so many incentives to do the exact opposite of what you'd want to do in such a meritocracy. The inverse is that an educated minority doing very vital work feel they are not getting what is due to them, and see the common workers as an impediment to their own advancement. You're always going to have this problem of meritocracy in any arrangement of society, unless you imagine people as something they aren't or people are much different in the future such that our present conceits about intelligence and merit aren't an inroad to recreating class society. This is to say, if you were imagining a system that worked in perpetuity and was the most just possible, we are very far from that, and it would be better to recognize that we really should be looking at why we have a meritocracy in the first place, so we can do the things we actually wanted instead of dickering over who is the most ideal person or how to make the perfect society. That way, people can have actually good things again, instead of this shitshow where all the choices lead to being shit on or being sacrificed to the state. It's not a trivial issue, but even today it is not the great destroyer that makes us conclude socialism is impossible. There is no obstacle to paying janitors and treating them decently, and so much of the shit treatment of janitors is explicitly because janitors are selected as an "underclass" position. There's all sorts of these petty distinctions in the lower classes of labor, where people are desperately clinging to any job and will kill each other for Wal-Mart positions.
eugenics-kun 2022-01-15 (Sat) 08:39:21 No. 692150
Further, the point is that the janitor would have something else to do with their life, rather than being defined as "janitor" or their assigned grade in society, with a limited list of things people in his caste are supposed to be. I'm a fucking bum and I've had to learn not to hate myself as much as I'm obligated to by the present society. I'd rather not be a bum, but that's the society we have today. Very likely, if I did work some shit job, like that time I did that, I'd go home and pretend I was sleeping the whole time. Then I'd pursue my hobbies because I have no life, and I wouldn't be burdened with this shame and constant PTSD flashbacks (flashbacks that will never be officially diagnosed because they were created by the fucking system, and the system can't be making people sick, of course not!)
eugenics-kun 2022-01-15 (Sat) 08:42:56 No. 692154
The deal as I understood it in the USSR is that you worked for the government, and you liked it or not but you shut up. It probably got nasty if you wanted to be in a more prestigious position, and workplace harassment was common in shit-tier jobs because most of them didn't want to be there and there was all sorts of stealing and shit going on. But the deal was straightforward - shut up, accept the system, get your paycheck, then piss off and do whatever so long as you don't try to overthrow the government. Here in America you get a rigamarole before you essentially reach the same conclusion, but with a merry-go-round of abuse until you're beaten into compliance and lied to the whole time. It's all so sneaky and sinister and there's this great kayfabe that we live in a democratic and free society, but we're controlled like rats in a lab and treated as such.
So, yeah, pretty grim choices at the moment.
eugenics-kun 2022-01-15 (Sat) 08:45:13 No. 692158
Mind, I'd probably get the PTSD in any society, but I can't see it being much worse in a different society short of just being institutionalized or killed. (And yes, that did happen in the USSR, and probably would have been my fate. USSR was hell for mental cases.)
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 09:17:11 No. 692184 >>691508
>In a communist society, where everyone enjoys good education and equal opportunity, why would anyone choose to become a janitor?
In a communist society people would not be stuck with one job, but motivated to mantain society AND pursue personal interests. In the morning you can be a lumberjack, in the afternoon a janitor and in the evening a teacher. What under capitalism and early socialism we call "jobs", under higher-stage socialism and communism will be more like flexible "tasks", where free and widespread education and training centres will allow you to change tasks with flexibility instead of being stuck with one alienating 8-hour a day job for life.
Being a janitor can be an opportunity to earn labour-vouchers under socialism and besides it's not like everyone will want to attend university because some people are more suited or talented for menial and practical jobs.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 09:30:51 No. 692193
someone needs to clean up the trash, m8.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 09:38:43 No. 692199
i don't think more complicated jobs can work that way, this isn't the 19th century anymore
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 10:21:09 No. 692209
>>692184 >In the morning you can be a lumberjack, in the afternoon a janitor and in the evening a teacher
So, i will have to weork 12-15 hours under commuinism, huh?
Jokes aside, this is one of the few things Marx got wrong imo. While we should build our education system so that people can change their occupation easier and have a pretty broad wroldview, instead of super specialists in several tasks that are useless outside of them, thinking that people just gonna easily switch professions en masse without significant drop in productivity is pretty stupid. You need years to get pretty good at what you do unless we are talking about very simple jobs like janitor, but jobs like that would be automated and replaced by a more technical and complex ones over time. Specialization is the key to productivity after all.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 12:12:08 No. 692296
This entire thread is about menial work that is not automated yet, which is auspicable to free man from the burden of those jobs.
Anyay a person pursuing higher education and more complex jobs inevitably need to be somewhat specialized in that field because of the lenghty education. But if a biologist works say 6 or 4 hour a day I don't see why he/she can't make video lessons on wood working in the spare time, or write poetry. The concept is, you shouldn't be defined by your job like it happens under capitalism and people have passions and can contribute to society with it.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 13:11:49 No. 692331
>>692296 >This entire thread is about menial work that is not automated yet
And most of it is not automatic just because you can exploit people but you can't exploit robots. Technologically there is nothing that prevents us from automating it. Ffs someone even posted pictures of ride-on floor scrubbers in this thread already.
>But if a biologist works say 6 or 4 hour a day I don't see why he/she can't make video lessons on wood working in the spare time, or write poetry
You are talking about leisure activity not about changing occupations on the whim. And most jobs ARE ALREADY pretty complex copmpared to time of Marx, since even farmers need the skills to operate complex machinery and posess some rudimentary scientific knowledge to be effective. And in a society where automations is not stalled in the name of profits it's gonna be even more pronounced in less than one generation.
>you shouldn't be defined by your job
Don't fucking move the goalposts
>people have passions and can contribute to society with it
Last time ichecked you need skills to make contribution and skills take a lot of time to develop regardles wherever you are driving, making a bluepring, writing a piece of software or making a movie.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 14:55:50 No. 692385
why would you rely on people choosing to do something?
Wouldn't it just make since that whoever is in charge of X workplace or area to assign someone to do it? Criminals as the clean up crew? some sort of resource compensation for doing jobs people don't like.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 15:07:40 No. 692396
That's literally the implication of the meme you posted, dont play dumb
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 15:14:39 No. 692398
its not though. the meme is attacking liberal ""socialists""
you're either trying to argue in bad faith because you're hurt that people are attacking liberals are you're genuinely retarded and think attacking X position means endorsing Y position
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 15:17:59 No. 692400
The shame that comes with being a janitor is cultural rather than inherent. In Albania, people of various levels of education volunteered on their day off to clean the streets without needing a gun to their heads.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 15:18:33 No. 692401
Half of the meme is reacting (ie. reactionary-ing) to perfectly innocuous things like 'anything is okay as long as there's consent' or 'modern art is valid', you're just REEing about conservative spooks
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 15:20:46 No. 692404
reacting and reactionary are not the same thing retard :^)
>perfectly innocuous things like 'anything is okay as long as there's consent' or 'modern art is valid',
why? because you say so? massive retarded cope
>you're just REEing about conservative spooks
you're crying because leftypol is attacking liberals
sounds like you're just projecting at this point
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 15:23:03 No. 692407
>>692404 >reacting and reactionary are not the same thing retard :^)
They are when you're crying about aesthetic differences like 'muh blue hair'
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 15:25:17 No. 692410
What the fuck is the point of the meme?
Do you think the only way to be anti-liberal is to become a reactionary shithead?
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 15:29:04 No. 692414
you must be a retard who thinks attacking X position means endorsing Y position
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 15:34:15 No. 692416
You litterally have reactionary points in your meme
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 15:46:29 No. 692425
your meme is ridiculing modern art and libs who like it.
Ever heard of what Hitler called degenerate art? I'm not trying to make a "you're litterally hitler" point but the way hitlerists treated modernism in their time is very similar of how people who agree with you treat modern art nowadays. This is just another example of how your post advocates for reactionary response to libearlism.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 15:49:54 No. 692430
>>692425 >your meme is ridiculing modern art and libs who like it.
yes and? modern art is just used for money laundering and liberals that like it are pretentious retards
>Ever heard of what Hitler called degenerate art? I'm not trying to make a "you're litterally hitler" point but the way hitlerists treated modernism in their time is very similar of how people who agree with you treat modern art nowadays. This is just another example of how your post advocates for reactionary response to libearlism. <Hitler criticized art <if you criticize art you are literally hitler.
you must be trolling or are you not even trying at this point?
Why are you so hurt that people make fun or liberals who like shitty art?
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 15:50:56 No. 692432
>>692413 >>692382 >>692398 >>692404 >>692430
everything about this screams r/stupidpol
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 15:53:11 No. 692434
Maybe I don't understand what you qualify as modern art because we don't seem to be on the same page.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 15:54:45 No. 692435
Inb4 leftypol defends a quintuple of content creators they should despise because
>oh no le anti-woke dogwhistles in meme
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 16:02:00 No. 692452
But I guess I might as well look into what this is
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 16:03:39 No. 692454
You would do well to, post-modernism is anti-socialist
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 16:04:32 No. 692455
Start with Arvatov, much easier to read. Pretty decent analysis of art from marxist perspective, though obviously not without some faults.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 16:06:52 No. 692459
Okay, I guess I'll look into it.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 16:09:14 No. 692463
of course not. Because you're trying to project Hitler onto people who criticize liberals
quit being a schizo
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 16:11:03 No. 692470
Considering the state of the bourgeoisie "left" I'm starting to think Hitler had a few good points
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 16:12:21 No. 692474
Chill. Don't rage, just explain your position.
Also, so called "modern art" is not really different from the rest of the art today. It is still subject of commodification and artists are alienated from production creating petty bourg elitist mindset and dependancy on ruling class patronage.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 16:14:13 No. 692480
Dont get me wrong he was obviously bad, but considering the amount of blue haired freaks and literal shit smeared on canvas that's being associated with the "left" nowadays it makes one raise eyebrows. It's not an endorsement of Hitler, but a condemnation of the pseudo-left
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 16:15:43 No. 692484
>>692463 >quit being a schizo
Sure thing, thanks for the advice, I don't know where I'd be without you.
I've simply asked for your point and all you've answered back is this shit? I'm litterally trying to understand what the fuck you're trying to say.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 16:17:38 No. 692489
>>692484 >I've simply asked for your point and all you've answered back is this shit?
It's an image board. Comes with a territory, sadly.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 16:19:23 No. 692497
Absolutely, which proves the earlier point that decadence, no matter what the justification, is anti-socialist in nature. Pedos like Voosh and troontrapoints may as well be waving Nazi flags, because those are their ideological forefathers
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 16:25:01 No. 692509
Decadance is pretty subjective tho, rather saying something is decadant or degenerate is no different than saying "i don't like it", you should make your point by relying on analysis of material forces behind otherwise you may be led astray by focusing your attention too much on superficial stuff like blue hair.
We are materialist, not idealist, so we sould be able to do better than point and say "it's degenerate", right?
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 16:26:58 No. 692512
if you bothered to read there was more then just what you quoted
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 16:27:54 No. 692516
Indeed we are materialists, which is why the material decline of society and people via decadent pseudo-culture is all the more observable. People are becoming complacent with mindless capeshit after capeshit because the media tells them that it's good, then they fatten up on toxic chemicals from McBurger or whatever because their favorite youtubers tell them that real socialism is when you do whatever you want and weigh 300 pounds and have multiple self inflicted mental disorders because that's body positivity. When this is all that the real proletariat sees of the "left", they become convinced that only the right really represents them, leaving them easily exploited.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 16:33:04 No. 692530
>>692516 >Indeed we are materialists
Are you? You reiterated stuff you don't like, but you didn't provide solid material basis for you judgement.
>material decline of society and people via decadent pseudo-culture is all the more observable
Change a copuple of words and you will get usual rightoid diatribe about joos and uyghs making their society degenerate. Which is probably why the other poster called you on it.
Read the book i posted and see the difference in approaching the subject.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 16:34:51 No. 692538
whining about joos isn't an argument
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 16:37:16 No. 692544
It is an argument, just not a very good one. Regardless, it was actually my whole point that the anon should make a better arguments for his position.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 16:38:23 No. 692547
ok well I'm rejecting your reactionary whining come back with a real argument
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 16:39:37 No. 692552
Did you mistake me for the other anon? Or is this just weak attempt at trolling?
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 16:41:45 No. 692557
no but at this point all you're doing is whining about statements
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 16:48:17 No. 692576
All you did was whine about "muh degeneracy", you are in no position to pretend that you are on an intellectual high ground there.
I'll even say that people like you are prime material for fascist who use psudo revolutionary rethoric to lure people in.
Read more theory. Or at least some theory.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 16:55:58 No. 692595
>>692576 >All you did was whine about "muh degeneracy"
ahhh now you pivot to "I'm going to accuse you of exactly what you exposed ME of doing"
>I'll even say that people like you are prime material for fascist who use psudo revolutionary rethoric to lure people in.
first it was
<Hitler criticized art, YOU are criticizing art, interesting
<stop liking what I don't like or you're a fascist
is this bad faith arguments or are you genuinely retarded?
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 17:03:17 No. 692614
>>692595 >"I'm going to accuse you of exactly what you exposed ME of doing"
What are you even talking about?
>Hitler criticized art, YOU are criticizing art, interesting
That was a different poster, you idiot. My fucking sides.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 17:06:31 No. 692621
>>692595 >What are you even talking about?
>>692576 <All you did was whine about "muh degeneracy"
after being called out for constant whining about people shitting on liberals
>That was a different poster, you idiot. My fucking sides.
n no that wasn't me ; ;
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 17:09:54 No. 692627
Take your meds, faggot.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 17:11:34 No. 692631
>>692621 >n no that wasn't me ; ;
It wasn't him it was me you schizophrenic mess of a man
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 17:19:51 No. 692646
so were there literally zero janitors in the USSR or something?
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 17:20:21 No. 692651
>>692450 >leftypol is so desperate to prove they're "woke" that they'll sideline the left in favor of liberalism No, it's that leftypol doesn't care about "woke/antiwoke" nonsense to begin with. That isn't sidelining the left, that's being more coherent in their leftism then most "culture war" obsessed faggots are.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 17:21:16 No. 692652
You need to be tortured.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 17:40:04 No. 692692 >>692382
Okay, but most of the "Jannitors will inherit the land" nonsense is
wagies and their revenge/escapist fantasies.
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 17:56:06 No. 692749 >>692692
oops wrong image
Anonymous 2022-01-15 (Sat) 22:17:53 No. 693014
It is just a ban evading faggot on the tor node. Ignore/report.
Anonymous 2022-01-16 (Sun) 05:44:00 No. 693483
because you'd only work for four hours a day and would be compensated extremely well in comparison and it would be temporary (many others would rotate through) and you would have other opportunities provided to you like education or training for a better job
Anonymous 2022-01-16 (Sun) 06:11:46 No. 693501
Janitor is the kind of job that would either be
<delegated to all employees at a workplace as part of everyone's duties <incorporated into common education or civil service so that everybody spends some of their time working at least some of these necessary but shitty jobs, instilling a sense of respect for those workers Which would be better depends on the workplace. Cleaning things up in a nuclear power plant might require special knowledge or something for example.
Anonymous 2022-01-16 (Sun) 06:13:52 No. 693504
What if instead of calling them "janitors" you will call them "landscape designers" and pay them well?
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