No.915584[Last 50 Posts]
This is a thread only for people who actually do IRL organizing to exchange tactics and ideas. Its time to stop whining about bullshit like Wiccans or shizo pedo rape cult conspiracies, and actually get some actual lessons out of each other, for fucks sake.
Explain your situation, ask a question on what you would like some advice on, and give insight into what you do right now and how successful you are.
Let me start off
>I am the chairman of a local chapter of a socialist nation wide youth org of a european country
>We have, on paper, 90+ youth members in our local chapter
>We have, on paper, 1000+ members nationally
>Recently formed out of a split, still very much in flux
>The real local cadre is around 10-15 people with varying levels of commitment, about 6 people at each weekly or so meeting
>The ideological and practical education of our cadre is low
>Following a broadly orthodox marxist line, as opposed to classical marxist leninist, or maoist, but also containing trotskyites and anarchists
Now the thing I would like your feedback on is explaining how you conduct meetings, how to educate cadre, how to retain cadre, how to ensure people show up, what communist youths are even supposed to do. So let me sketch out what we do now
>We meet once every 2 weeks, set time, set place, set day
>The meetings agenda is made during the two weeks by people finding interesting topics to discuss, and compiled by me, together with any things that need to be done organizational wise
>We discuss developments nearby, such as opportunities for media stunts on specific topics (such as fucking with rich fucktards), setting up protests, our involvement in activist groups and the student union/labour union protests
>We check our list of tasks we made last time, and see what got done
>We discuss the points of that week
>We formulate new points of action based on the outcome of the discussion
>End of meeting
Now, what we do not do is, but not out of any conscious decision
>educating cadre
>stands
>making or selling newspapers
I think our largest issues right now is retaining and educating our cadre, both ideologically and in terms of skills, as well as finding enough tasks to do to keep our members engaged if more people happen to show up. We have an okay influx of new members because of the media attention we have, and via direct recruitment via friend circles. The biggest issue is making sure new members keep showing up after the first 3 times.
How do your orgs handle these topics, how would you do it differently, and does it translate into tangible results? How do we (if we should at all) find work to do for our, on paper, sizable cadre, that youths (below 28, mostly highschool and student aged) find enjoyable that also contributes to the workers movement and our party?
Inb4
>Do you have a motherparty?
Sort of, but not really. Our org is the result of an entire youth wing getting expelled together with a few, but not many, older members. The youth currently dominates the amount of members, which is both a blessing and a curse.
>Go commit terrorism
No
>Doing anything actually useful is CIA, just post on leftypol about anime titties behind 4 vpns instead
Kill yourself
No.915587
Ok, why are you posting here. This is ICL, not IRL….
No.915589
>>915587Its called being able to ask the advice of people who might have some experience, like our comrades in India, the philipines, the chinese comrades, people organising in southern europe, south america.
If my own org had all the answers, we would have taken over the country.
No.915646
where anime tiddy tho
No.915669
>>915584>european>>Following a broadly orthodox marxist line, as opposed to classical marxist leninistjust admit you are in an imperialist nation and that makes you oppose leninism, lmao
also
>splitngmi
No.915677
can someone explain to me the point of organizing, and how it fits into a broad strategy for meeting your aims, and what those aims are?
I don't think I really agree that the "just get people some wins" mentality works, but thats from hearing people not ever getting any wins, getting burnt out, then turning lib…. The other side of that seems to be engaging in perpetual charity for the homeless to claim some kind of win.
Is there even any point? I feel like i dont fuck with a pure economic or structural idea of socialism, it's more about social control of the political sphere and political control of the economy for me, a society based on socialist philosophy rather than just trying and failing to get some kind of welfare support or something. What's the way to actually make shit better? Without the anarchist shit of stopping at "just build a whole economy and make it how u want from ground up" bullshit. Can people even be gotten on your side for political action? Does political action like voting actually matter when so much is literally actually rigged? Should we just focus on local elections? Should we build a movement to gain support? What's the strategy, and what are your goals?
I hope someone can answer, cause i'm asking in good faith, not trying to be cynical. Just i really don't know what strategy to follow to begin to effectively and scalably help out with shit.
No.915738
Is there point to trying to organize if you happen to be autistic? I can talk to people reasonably well but I'm not confident that I can break down years of propaganda and anti-political cynicism in my older colleagues (most of them)
No.915743
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Shortcutsthis book is essential for actually organising gang, the most important of all gang
No.915747
>>915669the imperialist core left is at least 2 thirds leninist in some way shape or form
No.915816
>>915738How exactly would being autistic negate the benefits of organization?
Seems like a non-issue.
No.915824
>>915677>I don't think I really agree that the "just get people some wins" mentality works, but thats from hearing people not ever getting any wins, getting burnt out, then turning lib…. The other side of that seems to be engaging in perpetual charity for the homeless to claim some kind of win.Consider someone whose values are helping the community.
Ideology and political involvement is just a means to an end. If you want to help homeless people, and 'the left' where you live aren't doing any mutual aid, then the church or lib institutions are likely to be the most effective method to promote your values, even if you believe believe socialism is the solution and charity/aid is a bandaid.
Anyway, your initial question of 'the point' and 'your aims' are completely relative and change from org to org. It's still an excellent question and I want to hear answers, but there is certainly no universal answer even if just talking about communist orgs.
No.915841
>>915816I see it as beinv an obstacle to the actual task of organizing, especially when there's little to organization locally, I'd be starting from scratch
No.916347
>>915669>As opposed to means you actually oppose something, rather than it being a different way of saying "rather than"English comprehension is hard for you I see. Just because you don't adopt 100 percent of the Bolshevik ml party form doesn't make you reject Lenin.
No.916350
>>915677>I don't think I really agree that the "just get people some wins" mentality works, but thats from hearing people not ever getting any wins, getting burnt out, then turning lib…. The other side of that seems to be engaging in perpetual charity for the homeless to claim some kind of win.It's worked for religions for centuries. But you're right it doesn't translate into revolution at all.
No.916406
>>915584>>Recently formed out of a splitC L A S S I C
No.916422
>>916406I'm so sorry the party we used to be in decided to denounce Marxism, expell us, said immigrants ruin the country, and declared they would be willing to work the hardest neoliberals.
You got anything useful to say or are you just going to jack yourself off?
No.916426
>>916422kek is this in the Netherlands?
No.916444
>>915677>can someone explain to me the point of organizing, and how it fits into a broad strategy for meeting your aims, and what those aims are?Lets formulate the aims, in a way that probably all marxists could agree on
>We wish to establish a society where the workers are, as a class in its totality, in direct control of the political and economic power of out society, in order to repress the bourgeoisie and build toward a society where the bourgeoisie is abolished, opening the way towards full communismNow with that out of the way, lets get into the broad strategy
The only way to do this is to capture and replace the state with a workers state. To achieve this, there must be a political party, a political organization, that acts as a workers government, being the expression, under the control of, the proletariat, which enacts the above stated aims. This party is the political decision making body of the proletariat, just as the state is the decision making body of the bourgeoisie. The party is the political power of the workers movement.
To sustain and grow this party, workers power must be build. This means labour unions, not in the apolitical self-interested sense, but linked directly to the party. Unions aren't to be just small groups of workers working in a cartel form, but a large organization that recognizes that only the working class as a whole, working in solidarity and lockstep, can defeat the capitalists. In this manner, labour unions protect all workers, the ones who aren't on strike support those who are, unions will try to ensure workers dont engage in activities to undermine the work of the other members via indirect scabbing. These unions are the economic power of the workers movement.
Additionally, to ensure our media, our message, our ideology can be spread uncensored, we need our own media. We need newspapers, websites, tv networks, radio, whatever we can build independently of the bourgeoisie, to spread proletarian values. We also need cultural groups with an explicit proletarian ideology, to ensure workers can freely participate in culture on their own terms, rather than being subjected to bourgeois institutions. Proletarian gyms, proletarian cinemas, proletarian bars, proletarian libraries. This media supports the union and party with cultural power, and the party and union support the media with economic and political power.
These are the three main pillars which we ought to build. The workers movement of europe, before the first world war, were build in this manner, and were massive. Only by building these 3 pillars of power, can you attain full dominance.
With these three, you have actual dual power. You have dual power in culture, via your media. You have economic power, via the unions. You have political power, via the party. Only with a base in all three can you sustain secondary projects such as "mutual aid", as the video here
>>915696 explained. Mutual aid should not be charity, it should be the political education of the masses. First, we show that by consistently being able to provide these things, the party, the movement, is stable, reliable, and is there for the workers. To do this, you need a strong economic base. Then, you use this to ideologically educate the people. For this, you need the cultural and political base.
"Get people some wins" or "win an election", isnt a political strategy. You're not building workers power. Charity, community gardens, helping the homeless, does not build workers power. These are good things to do, obviously, but should be done consciously with a good political motive and benefit, when your party has the power base to do them. Helping the homeless is a show of strength to the working class, that you are able to solve the problems in their neighborhoods, but in itself, it does not build any kind of power.
Now that we've gotten this down, lets go by your post one by one.
>I don't think I really agree that the "just get people some wins" mentality worksIndeed, it does not work
>The other side of that seems to be engaging in perpetual charity for the homeless to claim some kind of winAlso does not work
>it's more about social control of the political sphere and political control of the economy for me, a society based on socialist philosophy rather than just trying and failing to get some kind of welfare support or somethingYou are correct. I hope that my earlier writing clears some of this up, but if not, feel free to ask for clarification.
>Can people even be gotten on your side for political action?They can. If we look at how it was done before, we can see that the way to do so is to find workers with specific grievances, and be the people organizing them. Workers needing a union, people trying to protect their homes from being demolished, that sort of stuff. You, as a marxist, go in there, and train these people to organize themselves, you teach them how to conduct meetings, you explain why certain tactics work and why others won't, you explain why they have to fight for themselves rather than vote. Do this, and you are already making people class concious. Make it clear that a true marxist/socialist/communist/whateveryoucallyourself party is not about electrocalism, we are not about "winning votes". We aren't there to tell them to "just vote for us, we will save you". They have to save themselves, and we are like them, also fighting for ourselves. Only together, as a class, united in a party, can we make a fist and destroy the system that causes our collective misery.
>Does political action like voting actually matter when so much is literally actually rigged?A twofold answer:
1. We cannot vote ourselves to socialism. Voting, in the end, is not the solution. This much should be clear from everything i wrote before.
2. Nevertheless, voting does
something. With voting in bourgeois democracy, you can enact limited control over society. You can frustrate the bourgeoisie, you can, in some situations, push for laws that will make the organizational work of the workers easier, protect their rights in the workplace, protect unions from the bourgeoisie, direct some of the funds of the bourgeois state towards the workers. So voting is always something you ought to do.
In the end, the bourgeoisie will show that they are fundamentally anti-democratic. Eventually, you will get repressed. A large socialist party getting repressed only solidifies what we have been saying all along about the bourgeoisie into the minds of the workers. Even when illegal, we will go on. We still fight for the workers, we still have our newspapers, and now the workers will be more galvanized.
Hopefully all this gives you some insight into what we ought to be doing, in broad strokes.
No.916447
>>915743Thank you, i will read it.
No.916449
>>916445Kek I sympathize, that entire org completely melted down holy shit haha
No.916454
>>916449Yeah the original socialist party is collapsing in on itself.
Gee, i wonder why, when you purge all the people who actually did all the work.
We are trying to keep going though, especially as a youth group. The time within the SP wasn't the best for training principled cadre, so any tips are appreciated.
No.916458
>>916454interesting. Good work!
What's the general tendency, if I may ask?
No.916463
>>916458I think the dominant tendency right now is Orthodox marxism, whatever you may define that as.
The real thing that links all the people in our orgs is two core points though
>Fuck capitalism, we need some form of communism through a political party>You should be able to talk to comrades outside of structures of the party, and openly criticize the party. As much as possible of the discussion of the line of the party ought to conducted openly, as it will show to the working class the reasons and tendencies that exist because of them, and also trying to run an airtight vertical org is untenable and undesirableThe main point around which we we're expelled, or rather, which was used to justify the purge, was that we "worked outside the party structure" by doings things like "drinking a beer with people from other chapters" or "discussing and coordinating in the party with people who we ideologically we're close to". So thats a strong core value, which is also why we have anarchists and had a trot org join us, there is room for their line too.
We will see how it develops, a more solid tendency should be able to solidify over the coming time.
No.916530
>>916463>which is also why we have anarchists and had a trot org join us, there is room for their line too.Can you elaborate on this further? I don't think it's much of a secret which org you're referring to now.
I'm especially interested in the Trot group, because the Orthodox Marxist ethos of party organization is usually at odds with them. Was it a case when your local campus IMT / CWI / etc. chapter broke with their masters in the UK to join a less sectarian party? Or did that leadership order them to join the numerically bigger party so they could "build the cadre" with entryism?
No.916550
>>916463>>916530Oh that's nice to hear!
Personally I've always found Trots a chore to work with because of a tendency amongst trots to prefer absolute doctrinal purity and are very quick to dismiss anything that doesn't follow it, but hey if you guys are managing to make them stay without excessive conflict, that's all the better and I wish good luck to you, comrade!
No.916594
>>916550>>916530>I don't think it's much of a secret which org you're referring to now.Oh yeah sure. Theres people from IMT in local groups. There arent any specifically in my local chapter, but i haven't heard of anything that indicates they throw a wrench in the cogs or anything. (They did whine about some chapter working together with maoists and called for it to be forbidden but they got laughed off)
I imagine they hope to gain some new members, but having a mass socialist youth movement is in their interest. I dont think they broke off the IMT. IDK.
>but hey if you guys are managing to make them stay without excessive conflict, that's all the better and I wish good luck to you, comrade!Thanks!
No.916615
When I was in a youth com org, I was not there for long time.. but I think what was missing, is organizing workers and some goal like "free time for workers, no wage cut!". My education on the subject was very weak, just private property and porky is garbage blah blah.
It was at time when I was studying in school, but I had a job too, and even then I was tired at this job and the future looked bleak. Sadly there was no one else working, or working with workers, so I had no one to discuss this with.
I did not read Marx and Lenin page to page, what can I say, mostly I lurk something I do not know which is not systematic.. But in fact mostly scientific study is done like this. You take a problem, lurk, think and conclude something. And a simple goal like less working time, can be rigorously put in simple concise text, sure like any publication it should link to Marx and etc.
No.916683
I'm not in a position to contribute anything useful, but this is a good thread idea and best of luck to all of you
No.916692
>>915584>Let me start off>>I am the chairman of a local chapter of a socialist nation wide youth org of a european country>>We have, on paper, 90+ youth members in our local chapternobody gives a shit about your zoomer LARP splitter party, Rat.
No.916706
>>916692Then don't reply, fucko
No.916717
So what do you guys do? Bike Infront of cars to make people drive less? Cuz that's what I would do if I had an org in the NL
No.916719
>>916717>Bike Infront of cars to make people drive less? Why would we do that?
If you want to reduce car use were better off trying to get public transport to be affordable rather than bully car drivers.
No.916728
Based thread.
>>915584>The biggest issue is making sure new members keep showing up after the first 3 times.I'm not an organizer, but speaking from the little experience I have, in order to attain this you first need find an answer to:
>what communist youths are even supposed to doYou need to have some theory of change and plan of action in order to hold onto people. I was very briefly involved with a Communist party, and I simply stopped going to meetings because beyond theory discussion (which was good) there was nothing to do, but hand out flyers and write manifestos that for some fucking reason had to be in the style of Soviet bureacratics.
The "doing stuff" part doesn't need to be anything grand or sexy either. Just something realistic enough that committed members can feel that fullfilling their obligations is actually building towards a purpose other than embarassing themselves publicly. There's an actual personal cost to being an active and open Marxist, and so there needs to be tangible, achievable goals to motivate people to make that commitment.
I quit looking for political orgs and simply moved from working an isolated and lonely job in care industry to factory work. People know I'm some vaguely commie type, but I get respect for being good at my job and showing up for union shit. It's not agitating for a revolution, and it's not really even organizing but just knowing I'm clearing up the Commie name by being a normal human being and a good work mate feels better and more productive than the depressing shit that goes on in some of the far Left orgs I know.
>our involvement in activist groups and the student union/labour union protestsI think this is the most promising line of inquiry, especially the union part. There are excellent resources in terms of how to organize unions (check out Jane McAlevey), but I haven't found a resource on how Leftist cadres can organize within unions. Maybe build a squad of SLATs to infiltrate some industry with a lot of young blood in the workforce? IDK, but I hope you keep posting on this thread.
>>915589>Its called being able to ask the advice of people who might have some experience, like our comrades in India, the philipines, the chinese comrades, people organising in southern europe, south america.I think you should be very conscious of the fact that all since all those places have conditions different from yours, their strategies will not necesserily apply to your ssituation. I'm simply saying this because this is a real mistake Leftists keep making. Trying to apply Mao's tactics of protracted people's war in places like France and Italy completely fucked some orgs up. I honestly think the best course of action for those of us in the developed world is to look at people like McAlevey and some other labour organizers that are doing good, and finding ways to apply those lessons to more radical and openly political organizing. Real innovations come from grappling with very particular, concrete problems.
>If my own org had all the answers, we would have taken over the country.Absolutely based and humble-pilled attitude.
No.916729
>>916728 (me)
>SLATSFUCK! I menat SALTs.
No.916733
>>916717>So what do you guys do? Try to hook up with chicks, mostly. Lots of girls looking for activist groups, and they usually tend to go for the leaders of the group. It's the only reason to do a split, tbh.
No.916859
>>916733>Lots of girls looking for activist groups, and they usually tend to go for the leaders of the group.There's a certain truth to this, but it reveals a dynamic in many leftist parties that's much darker. A Marxist party will of course have a big emphasis on theory and political education, and therefore the more knowledgeable and experienced members will teach the immortal science to the new recruits. What this means in practice usually is that the new recruits are first and second year uni students and that significantly older members of the party will assume a mentor role, and this mentor role can be exploited to entice your awestruck students to have sex with you. This dynamic is especially strong in Trot and ML orgs where all members must pretend to agree with the "party line" because members can be shunned or expelled if, for example, they put the wrong date on when they think the russian revolution was betrayed.
The end result of this, usually after years of abuse, is a rape scandal. Rape scandals have caused a large number of Trot and ML parties to implode, notably the UK SWP, the US ISO, and most infamously the Workers' Revolutionary Party in the 1980s. The WRP was led by Gerry Healy since its founding in the 1940s, and Healy exploited his theoretical authority to have sex with student recruits - even as Healy himself entered his 70s. It all fell apart when more than three dozen women simultaneously accused him of sexual abuse, although he likely had hundreds of victims over his decades as theoretical high priest. It reminds you of all the sexual abuse scandals of the catholic church - the same dynamic is at play, both in left wing sects and literal religious sects.
Sorry OP (if that is you), I didn't mean to imply that you are / will become the next Gerry Healy, just had something to say on the structural origins of all these left rape scandals. As for how to stop this dynamic from happening, I think banning dating within the party is a step too far (the dating aspect is an undeniable draw for a lot of young people including myself tbh), but I have a few ideas. The first is to deliberately avoid creating a theoretical orthodoxy, "party line" or cult of personality. Obviously the activist core will still mostly be theory nerds, but try to keep a diversity of opinion and share responsibility for political education. Definitely avoid the Trot scenario where you have paid full-time lecturers driving from campus to campus and fucking a different girl at each one. The second is just to know this dynamic exists. The religious sexual abuse scandals have led to a lot more caution if not reform, the Gerry Healy scandal should provide the same lesson for the left. No.916979
Im going to contain my sneers for now to this post
>>916733>It's the only reason to do a split, tbh.Being kicked out for being a marxist appearantly isn't according to this dude.
But yes, splitting off as a group known for being a sausagefest, while I myself wasn't anywhere near any sort of leadership role at the time, to get pussy, is totally why we split off with several hundreds of people.
>>916859You know, I feel like you guys are just projecting tbh.
>Sorry OP (if that is you), I didn't mean to imply that you are / will become the next Gerry Healy,> I think banning dating within the party is a step too farWe defacto did this
>The first is to deliberately avoid creating a theoretical orthodoxy, "party line" or cult of personalityWhich is what we have, we have none of those
> Definitely avoid the Trot scenario where you have paid full-time lecturers driving from campus to campus and fucking a different girl at each oneWe don't have this
>The second is just to know this dynamic exists.We know. We appointed an LGBT and womens work group and also party confidants, one male, one female, one non binary, to prevent such issues.
Everyone knows trot groups are rapey, and we do everything to avoid such situations.
No.916987
>>916728Thank you for the wise words
>You need to have some theory of change and plan of action in order to hold onto people. I was very briefly involved with a Communist party, and I simply stopped going to meetings because beyond theory discussion (which was good) there was nothing to do, but hand out flyers and write manifestos that for some fucking reason had to be in the style of Soviet bureacratics.Insightfull. This confirms some of the suspisions i had.
>The "doing stuff" part doesn't need to be anything grand or sexy either. Just something realistic enough that committed members can feel that fullfilling their obligations is actually building towards a purpose other than embarassing themselves publiclyWe will try to work on this
> There are excellent resources in terms of how to organize unions (check out Jane McAlevey)Will do
>I think you should be very conscious of the fact that all since all those places have conditions different from yoursTrue, thats why we aren't maoists. But I imagine there must be some people somewhere in an industrial part of india or whatever that have some experience with running an org, or at least know who to point to to get advice. Nothing is a blueprint, but learning is always useful as long as you measure it up to your own conditions.
>look at people like McAlevey and some other labour organizers that are doing good, and finding ways to apply those lessons to more radical and openly political organizing. Real innovations come from grappling with very particular, concrete problems. Will look into it. Thank you.
I hope you will find a leftist org near you some day that isnt hyper cringe. Good luck, comrade.
No.916990
>>916728>SALTsAlso what is a salt?
No.917006
>>916979>We appointed an LGBT and womens work group and also party confidants, one male, one female, one non binary, to prevent such issues.You split off from the main party so you could engage in identity politics and get women and LGBT people into leadership positions? This is communism to you? Why should the gender of a person or who they fuck matter when choosing appointees?
No.917017
>>916990Strong arm labour tactics. Basically this is an old union tactic where young and commited activist infiltrate non-union workshops to help orginze them from within. Takes high levels of dedication, but can be highly effective.
No.917036
>>916987>But I imagine there must be some people somewhere in an industrial part of india or whatever that have some experience with running an org, or at least know who to point to to get advice. Nothing is a blueprint, but learning is always useful as long as you measure it up to your own conditions.This is also a good point. And getting in touch with proper worker's organisations in India and other such places can be useful on its own. If you form relations with them and later gain a foothold in a union for example, that can open up some real opportunities.
No.917110
>>916979>You know, I feel like you guys are just projecting tbh.No idea why I thought Trot rape scandals were relevant tbh. I thought about scrapping everything at the third paragraph but said fuck it and posted it.
I think it's because I went on another research dive about the Healy rape scandal lately, specifically the SEP / WSWS's reaction to it (they split from the WRP after the scandal). You may remember that the WSWS was adamant about defending accused sexual predators of #metoo like Weinstein and Spacey. Well, even back then their newspaper
defended Healy from most charges of sexual exploitation, only drawing the line when one of his victims was below the legal age of 16. This wasn't Healy's worst crime though you see, it was him betraying Trotskyism by vulgarizing the dialectic. Really bizarre stuff.
No.917133
>muh organizingyou actually think you’re the genius that’s gonna craft the perfect system that creates a revolution through your theoretical prowess?
>>916979>Everyone knows trot groups are rapey, and we do everything to avoid such situations.ok. have you ever tried being critical about why that might actually be the case? is there a reason why wouldn’t have a desire to be critical about it in the first place?
No.917160
>>917133What exactly do you mean by
>muhWhen you say
>muh organising? Why is that there in the context? Do you think communist should be disorganised? Or perhaps you think they talk about organising without actually getting into the nitty gritty of what that means and how it is done? In which case, that is literally the point of the thread so contribute something positive instead of being a moaning little bitch.
No.917235
>>917155i remember when this was a kind of funny meme instead of a raging cope
No.917239
Don't be afraid to talk to your local union organizers or the IWW or something to get help with organizing your workplace. They want to help you.
No.917649
>>915584I asked some comrades who have also dealt with inactive members in their orgs what they did, the advice they gave was to contact each of the inactive members one-on-one. Either by calling them or texting them and hava a conversation on why they're inactive, if they're interested in getting involved again etc
Having the one-on-one conversation had greater sucesss than just sending out a mass email that would just go into people's spam folder
>Now, what we do not do is, but not out of any conscious decision<educating cadreI'm a candidate member for my org, and what I've been doing is attend weekly zoom calls discussing sections of our program as part of my onboarding. The purpose of these weekly meetings isn't necessarily to just educate me on the party and its program. But also as a way for me to demonstrate my commitment to the party, that I won't suddenly just ghost the party once I become a member.
I think having weekly reading groups on your program or any other important text would be a good way to give people who do come thing to do, and a reason to keep on coming. And perhaps once your org has sorted itself out it could move to a candidate member system for new people who join
No.918401
>>917649>I've been doing is attend weekly zoom callsP R A X I S
R
A
X
I
S
No.918475
>>916444>>916444Amazing post comrade, this is exactly what this forum needs. Someone please screencap.
Are there any good books you recommend that go into more detail on these topics?
No.918476
>>916719There is little reasons to drive a car in the Netherlands. Most car users here deserve to get bullied. Yes PT could be made more affordable but people here use cars to get from their neighbourhood to the centre when it takes 15 minutes max to do so by bike
No.918482
>>918475it's a terrible post and the anon does not know what the fuck they're saying.
>2. Nevertheless, voting does something. With voting in bourgeois democracy, you can enact limited control over society.As a political party or organisation you should only enter elections if you know you will win. Only starry-eyed liberals and their pet project single issue party acolytes are the only ones who think you can gain power or popularity through electoralism. If your first step is to get on a voting list among the 2736252737363 parties in your country, and fight over the 10% of the votes of people who do not vote for one of the major centrist parties, you've already failed.
Start a local, city org, gain power on the ground. Build networks, provide services. Then, once you know you can get a seat on the city or regional council, or a mayoral position, then you get the org/party on the ballot, and then you win. Then the election and votes become an actual expression of what people want, not just a way for you to play politics.
No.918572
>>918482"Even where there is no prospect of achieving their election the workers must put up their own candidates to preserve their independence, to gauge their own strength and to bring their revolutionary position and party standpoint to public attention. They must not be led astray by the empty phrases of the democrats, who will maintain that the workers’ candidates will split the democratic party and offer the forces of reaction the chance of victory. All such talk means, in the final analysis, that the proletariat is to be swindled. The progress which the proletarian party will make by operating independently in this way is infinitely more important than the disadvantages resulting from the presence of a few reactionaries in the representative body. If the forces of democracy take decisive, terroristic action against the reaction from the very beginning, the reactionary influence in the election will already have been destroyed."
Marx/Engels 1850
No.918573
>>916444Workers state in Belgium? In US with 76% GDP - services? Same percent is employed in services.
I think the workers should organize to gain monopoly in necessary for living production: food, fuel, construction, etc. Since not just one company produces say grain, the workers should organize to gain control of multiple farms/factories at once, to form the monopoly. This between-factories organization is why they need a party.
If they have monopoly, they can produce for themselves what they need very efficiently and trade with everyone else on their terms. It is still capitalism, but with workers monopoly in some of the production. This monopoly is just a continuation of collective worker bargaining. Collective bargaining is what workers do when they join a union.
It is also an order more interesting for workers, than just some slightly higher wage at some individual factory.
What I propose is not against the workers state, but just some initial formation.
No.918754
>>916729Why SALT when you can SLAT?
>*bashes them over the head* No.918772
>>918482I think you got the wrong impression, comrade. Either that, or i misinterpreted the original question.
Voting, even if you dont participate, works to gain some control. Voting for socdems is better than not voting.
As you correctly pointed out, participating when you can be assured to at least get a seat is a good idea. Electrocal success requires lots ofextra work in campaign season, which is why we, as a youth party, do not participate in national elections.
I think you read too much into my answer on "does voting work", because it does do something. Even voting lesser evil, does something, it helps a little.
I do agree with marx here
>>918572 but keep in mind that putting up a candidate and pulling off a full campaign are two different things. For small parties with limited funds, keep your means in mind.
>>918475This book (pdf related) goes into it a bit deeper, but its also a critique of the ML party structure, so its not only about that topic.
>>917649Thank you. I will discuss with some of the older cadre and the national org how to make work of the education.
No.918829
>>918572>1850check your calendar, it is 2022. The political landscape has changed a bit in the past 172 years.
No.920562
>>918982"My word is gospel. What I write here are universal truths that are true for all time." - Karl Marx
No.920582
>>918982>>918572marxism is a science this is why it must remain ever unchanging and keep clinging to shit thats doomed to fail like electoralism lmao
No.920686
>>915584Czerwona młodzież, is that you?
No.920941
>>920686No. What is their ideological orientation with regards to marxism, previous "real existing socialism" and internal democracy?
It might be worth for us to get into contact with them as a national org.
No.942792
What's a good org to join in USA?
Not frso
No.942800
>>920582Name something more viable in the present conditions, unless you're infiltraring the military and forming a free officers movement or something you're not going to overthrow the government
No.942817
>>916444thank you very much for answering my question so well.
I have some more:
So i understand now that the point of organizing is well, to organize the people with grievances into a group who can leverage their power for change, and to educate people on the nature this change should take (and not educate dogmatically, but scientifically, as putting forward what has worked before and what should work now). I'm pessimistic on two fronts (and i should say i've never attempted to organize so this is just from my perceptions, there are 0 socialist organizations in my state at all):
One, if only people with grievances are gathered, will there ever be enough people to actually enact change at any given time? And this kind of leads into my next question,
Two, how do you retain people? This is a really stupid/naive question i feel like because it kind of assumes people will drift away if their immediate needs aren't getting met, or if they aren't drawn into stimulating action or at least finding companionship in the organization - but do people just stick around and wait till critical mass is built or what? Most importantly, it seems like there's a difference between the fundamental problems which cannot be dealt with under the current system, and the symptomatic problems which draw people in. If you get people on the level of the first, the deep problems which characterize a deep reality of our life in modern/postmodern capitalist society, they will be philosophically socialist and long-term socialists, true converts. But if they're only drawn in on the surface level problems, then theyre only looking for a solution, not a revolutionizing total worldview which socialism is (at its best, at least). To add to this, the elites already know they need to enact some kind of structural socialism to compete with china and keep the economy somewhat alive, how do we distinguish ourselves from these "socialists" (who right wing people somewhat correctly identify as socialist). The difference is at the level of actual people's control, but the level of any individual material grievance is that the level of material reality, which can be ameliorated some by those in power… This all taken together, does my question even make sense? lol. I hope you get it anyways. Like how to move from superficial (but very important) needs, to what really characterizes even the most basic and broad platform of anyone who is socialist? Thank you
No.942822
>>916444>>918772>Defending "lesser evil" voting I hope you're not implying what I think you are implying, because I'm not voting for a bourgeoisie party period. Some random socialist party which is making some kind of ill attempted bid? Sure, but anything other then that, no.
No.943542
>>942817>One, if only people with grievances are gathered, will there ever be enough people to actually enact change at any given time?Definitely. Remember that grievances of our class are things like "my entire neighborhood, and those others, is being bulldozed", "i don't earn enough an hour to feed my children healthy food" or "i am forced to work with toxic chemicals and all my coworkers die at 60 from cancer". The working class has a lot of grievances to address at all times, and capitalism only allows for so much concessions to the working class for so long before the need for profit rears its head again.
>Two, how do you retain people? This is a really stupid/naive question i feel like because it kind of assumes people will drift away if their immediate needs aren't getting met, or if they aren't drawn into stimulating action or at least finding companionship in the organization - but do people just stick around and wait till critical mass is built or what?Very good question. This exact thing is what plagues serial single-issue socdem/left-populist parties. They try to organize, but don't bind those people to them.
I think figuring this out is one of the main points we have to tackle. But in my view, the important point is to bind these people to your party not on single issues or promises of better tomorrows if they vote for you, but for you to fundamentally integrate the people into the party, a true mass party, where the orgs they set up directly have a say in the policy of the party. Soviets, if you will. Of course, this is not even mutually exclusive with aspects of a vanguard party, because you would still want to actively recruit the most class conscious and oratorically capable workers into your party.
In my opinion, what we see in a lot of left populist parties is that the main way they do activism is charity cases, the party helps the people, vote for the party and they will make your wages go up, trust the party. But they don't encourage union membership, they don't organize permanent neighborhood councils. They just pander populistically. Advanced communist parties have street chapters, floor chapters, where everyone from the street or neighborhood, or the factory, can come and meet, if they operate openly, and discuss their grievances. Most socdem and left wing parties in the west (western Europe, mostly), only have two sorts of membership. "Be a bureaucrat", for which you have to spend long times weaseling your way up the top down structure and kissing the right asses, or "pay up and fuck off", where you are a member but really, you don't have anything to say.
The cultural pillar is perhaps also important to keep in mind. In the past, the workers used to congregate in socialist pubs, socialist neighborhood houses, socialist sports clubs, all of which promote cohesion and continued politicization.
I personally think that if we really try to politicize these organizations we help workers set up, to make sure the tenants union isn't just about getting better rent rates for only its own members, but recognizes and agitates on their root causes of their suffering, and bind them together with an overarching societal ideology, we should be able to prevent single issue atomisation. This might be difficult in the west due to rampant individualism, where people cant see the whole of society for what it is, but it might be the only way.
You are entirely right in the fact that you can't just "do some organization of a tenants group" and then have them in the pocket. The capitalists will try to make these single issue things. But I am confident that, especially with the deteriorating standard of living in the west, many workers can see that their wages, their safety, their lack of housing, their lack of future prospects, is all connected together.
>>942926Two different people, but it fits together nicely.
No.943609
>>943600
Biden and trump is a special case since trump might due to sheer incompetence actually be the less shit option. Nonetheless, this isn't applicable in most of the world where usually politicians aren't reality TV stars, but calculated sociopath.
No.943614
>>943609Trump had policies that were actually decent
Biden just causes things to fall apart
mid terms will be fun
No.943620
>>943597
Also I think it's quite a stretch to say "voting is revisionism" given that no serious socialist thinker ever advocated against it. Its just that people like Lenin never wrote about "we need to vote for the srs" because there was no democracy. Likewise, the SPD before their betrayal, contended in elections themselves, so didn't need to do lesser evilism.
However, considering most of us are in tiny parties with no chance at national elections, I think voting for the lesser fascist, because of a lack of alternative candidates, is a smart move.
No.943628
>>943620>I think voting for the lesser fascist, because of a lack of alternative candidates, is a smart movewho is the "lesser fascist"
No.943660
want my banking details too?
No.943667
>>943628Alright, you guys do realise one of the sides in European elections (and America too for that matter) calls for what amounts to McCarthyism right? I vote for the side that wants to freeze rents, not the side that opened a hotline to doxx leftist teachers.
No.943676
Im trying to rally fellow university students to start translating rare political books into a language most of the country will be speaking in the near future, alongside with building a pirate library of historical and political books in both english and spanish, but each time we set our agenda they never keep it. I feel like im hearding cats, I feel do disilussioned because Im of the few people in my country that is in the position to do this work. Im not sure what to do
No.943681
>>943675
>I am
meant to say we are
No.943683
>>943667>Alright, you guys do realise one of the sides in European elections (and America too for that matter) calls for what amounts to McCarthyism right?are you referring to cancel culture?
No.943686
>>943675
Look bro I don't care if you're so autistic about voting, since it literally matters very little. Go ahead and don't vote. But if there is a local election I am going to vote for the least shit option if there isn't a Marxist option. Pick some other hill to die on and stop derailing the thread. We clearly both agree that there should be revolutionary parties participating and that of we can vote, it should be on them.
No.943688
>>943683No I'm saying they are litterally saying the left has infested all levels of education's and they need to purge every teacher who isn't right wing.
No.943689
>>943686the issue is you're probably voting against working class interests
No.943693
>>943688but what liberals are doing to anyone who straws too far from the mainline democrat neo liberal view could also be considered a form of McCarthyism like the Biden admins new ministry of truth
No.943698
>>943688Also I'm not sure you Americans realise how far the red scare went in most places. It used to be you wouldn't be able to get most jobs, even in the private sector, if one of your relatives was a communist. So strawman me all you want with "only Hollywood and academia", you're just talking out of your ass. I like being employed, I like not having my windows thrown in by right wing mobs, I will vote, if forced to choose between two, for the succdems putting a stop to that, rather than the ones who allow it.
Now back to organizing.
No.943702
>>943698I agree that is a reason why not to support democrats and liberals with their modern day McCarthyism against anyone who strays from modern liberalism
No.943703
>>943692
You didn't prove me wrong, you're kust shouting very loud, this thread is about organizing, and I don't care to get into a multi day shit throwing fight over whether or not you should for Joe liberal over Adolf Von Nazi in the one or two elections between starting to organize and the moment you can put your own candidate forward.
No.943706
>>943703>You didn't prove me wrongprove what wrong? I was mocking your shitty political nihilism and masquerading as liberalism
>and I don't care to get into a multi day shit throwing fight over whether or not you should for Joe liberal over Adolf Von Nazi in the one or two elections between starting to organize and the moment you can put your own candidate forward.your concessions is accepted
No.943717
>>943698>>943686>>943667the issue is you're probably voting against working class interests
but what liberals are doing to anyone who straws too far from the mainline democrat neo liberal view could also be considered a form of McCarthyism like the Biden admins new ministry of truth
I agree that is a reason why not to support democrats and liberals with their modern day McCarthyism against anyone who strays from modern liberalism
You've shown where your class interest lies. I think you're scared of the truth.
>>943703>You didn't prove me wrongprove what wrong? I was mocking your shitty political nihilism and masquerading as liberalism
>and I don't care to get into a multi day shit throwing fight over whether or not you should for Joe liberal over Adolf Von Nazi in the one or two elections between starting to organize and the moment you can put your own candidate forward.your concessions is accepted
No.943728
>>943707
Yes, being employed is my class interest.
No.943729
Glowie Glowie Glowie glowie fed fed glowie glowie glowie glowie glowie glowie cia fed fed fed psyop glowie glowie glowie glowie glowie fed fedpost glowfag glowie glowie glowie
It's called the real movement to abolish the present state of things, not the real movement to organize or go outside glowie
No.943730
>>943707
>I like being employed, I like not having my windows thrown in by right wing mobs,
<You've shown where your class interest lies.
What did he mean by this?
No.943735
>>943730resorted to larping and schizo posting now?
No.943737
>>943728>>943730>doesn't like right wing mobs>votes for the right wing mobsWhat did he mean by this?
No.943840
>>943742I'm not
>>943739Now back to organising.
No.943877
>>943840lol well guess you ran away
No.943938
why did my posts get removed when i pointed out one's oppurtunism?
No.943979
>>916717>put yourself in danger and cause traffic accidentsGreat advice, comrade!
No.944382
>>943676>university studentsstop
Literally, they're good for some things but perhaps looking further afield like language groups like ESL things is better.
No.945561
Alright, time to stop putting it off. I'm going to join a socialist party.
I live in the middle of nowhere so I'll definitely have to relocate in the near future if I want to actually do real organizing, but I figure I can at least attend some online events in the meantime. Even beyond my politics, I think being part of an actual group will do wonders for my mental health.
praise me for doing the bare minimum pls
No.945565
>>945561Also, when I do move, any recommendations for what American city has the most active/effective labor and/or socialist orgs? I have no real career aspirations beyond organizing workers so I'm cool moving wherever.
No.945691
>>943542wow thank you, my hope is resparked lol idk how i didnt think of this myself cause it seems so simple now, thank you so much anon <3
No.945945
>>945561>>945565Organizing in rural areas is possible and necessary.
What is your political orientation? Different parties have different territories so to speak. PSL is big in California for example.
No.946057
>>945945>>945565yeah i wasn't gonna say anything cause i think they gotta just live it and work it out themselves, but i'm in the same situation, live in a rural area that seems kind of bleak, but moving away also was a bad idea, like at least i get the vibe of this place better. And anyways someone's gotta organize somewhere… might as well start where u are
but that said i think everyone's journey has to work itself out thru practice
but i know where i'm gonna be, it's right here in this small city in the middle of nowhere.
No.949982
>>945561Fucking nice comrade, proud of you. You're already doing more than half the radical lefties in the west.
>>945691Don't worry, I had to read manuals of old communist parties, books about organizing, and discuss this extensively with other to figure it out. These all seem obvious in hindsight, but it took many people many decades to figure out these basic things. The best we can do is read what they wrote down about it, so we don't have to reinvent the wheel.
No.950013
im the ceo of antifa
we kidnap straight white married men and force them to watch bambi sleep in exchange for soros bux, it’s bussin 😎👊💸💰💰🤑
No.950061
So at this point I feel I have 4 options:
>Unionize my workplace
>Get involved in politics in my immediate locality
>Start some sort of group at my (online) school
>Get involve in politics online
However I feel like unionization at work is doomed to fall and screw me over if I even try, and I currently still live at home in a very right-wing, semi-rural area so I think it's a situation similar to my workplace.
So I guess that leaves me with two options, but I have no idea what kind of group I would start through school, how I would set it up, or what it would even do.
And well, since this is a thread about actually organizing I feel like online "activism" is out of the question.
No.950367
Does anyone who does mutual aid know where one could get large amounts of fruit for cheap?
No.951111
>>945561>Alright, time to stop putting it off. I'm going to join a socialist party.Good.
Now join a union too.
Then join a local liberal activist circlejerk as well.
Once you've collected all three, you'll get more experience about what not to do in four months than in years of just doing one.
No.951113
>>950061Don't start anything yet.
Join what you can, even liberal orgs, and just suck up knowledge and learn (what not to do).
Sign up to what you can, attend what you can, reach what you can, then in two months review where you're at and then maybe start something.
Failing is still learning, and it's good fuel. Let the hopelessness wash over you, and once it has you'll be mentally and emotionally liberated to pursue your goals.
No.951127
>>950061i'm a ruralfag too and recently ive realized that i had lots of organizing opportunities at my last job, people would come up to me and talk about how management fucked them over, how they'd discriminated against and not getting moved to another department, etc. But instead of being like "yeah i know what you mean theyre horrible, we can put the screws to them if we gang up whats ur number?" i was just happy to gripe with them and shoot the shit. I feel like in retrospect one of the people might have been trying to get smth going but i was just too stupid to see it, since we both got injured and fucked over by the company. I feel fucking stupid now, cause i just assumed there was nothing u could do i guess….. now i'm gonna be a fucking magnet, i wont leave anyone un-squaded.
No.951131
>>950061p.s., there's lots of drug problems, lots of fucked over vets, and lots of angsty kids in rural areas. People might not be there politically in explicit ways, but they have the instinct cause we're all workers at the end of the day. And at least if we're not all workers, we all feel screwed by the coastal elites and washington and shit.
No.951486
>>950367>Does anyone who does mutual aid know where one could get large amounts of fruit for cheap?Yes, Go to your loca wholesale fruit and vegetable market where the local buisnesses go to get their frut or get it delivered from. Everything s picked up pretty early in the morning so late morning is the best time to go often, just ask people, they are usually happy to give you the stuff that's going o turn soon and the stuff nobody want as most people are against the wastefulness of capitalist society.
If not you can still take it from their dumpsters but it's not as comfie.
I can maybe answer more questions about this if you need as it is something we used to do a lot.
No.951495
>>951486Do you reveal your political aims at all or just say that it's going towards people that need it?
No.951511
>>951495I'd go with the latter always. Even from a normal every day perspective I think it is better to be about what you do than what you believe, Obviously read a situation but I'm not sure that the former relevant or would gain you anything most of the time.
No.952126
>>951881my party already operates an organisation that sets up stalls in the city for about 3 hours every sunday. We already offer food, drink, and clothing, it's just we rarely - if ever - give out any fruit.
No.952231
>>915584Please tell me how to organize if I am an autistic shutin with 0 friends who can barely say hello to a stranger
No.952248
>>952231Dont. Focus on yourself first.
No.952274
>>952248Well this feels lazy. I'm also a transhumanist and do not feel comfortable interacting with large groups of people who I don't know especially from my 4chan mind poisoning about how many people want to murder me.
No.952283
>>952274I don't think anyone cares anon. If you are not a firstie move to somewhere actually safe and normal, if you are a firstie, nobody wants to kill you, consume less twitter.
Get friends, to do this, stop acting like a freak and take some diazapam.
Sage for this has nothing to do with organizing.
No.952287
>>952283Thanks anon. Ur rite sorry
No.952289
>>952274>4chan mind poisoningplease don’t “organize”, thanks
No.952294
>>952231>>952274>>952287Your life is never too bad to read theory. Even the best communists of all time had to take a break from life every now and then to catch their breath and read some books.
p.s. 4chan is not at all representative of public opinion, as I'm sure you're aware. Very few people in the first world have any violent inclinations towards trans people so you shouldn't let that stop you from trying to make friends.
No.952592
>>951113In my immediate area I know of a branch of the DSA, a soclib/socdem Latino organization, and an organization of older hippies from back around the Vietnam War. Unfortunately my work schedule makes it hard to go to meetings because I work evenings and my anxiety issues don't help either, but I can try to go to as many meetings as I can.
>>951127>>951131It happens, no reason to feel stupid. I guess I can try to talk politics with more people, see if anyone else feels the same way.
No.952763
>>920941Based on their manifesto published few weeks ago (they are splinter from PPS, a "socialist" party that went full neoliberal)
>support for planned economy including wide social services, guaranteed employment, lowering the working day>pro-ecology>freedom comes after having basic necessitiet met>synonim of socialism is participatory democracy (no mention of DotP tho)>patriotism (as in self-determination)>very pro-feminism>critical of NATO and RussiaSource in Polish (good full google translate on that shit):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hLKKn1GvjWM-MNttC1FGAsQPakiLcSih/viewGiven conditions of polish movement. They keep quiet about AES, are infiltrated by trots (but arent fully commited, and do have ML fraction connected loosely to Instytut Marksa) and as for internal democracy I can't tell.
No.953255
If I'm moving to a small city in the American south that appears to have zero local orgs, what should I do? I've thought about trying to start a DSA chapter, since I think that would have the highest likelihood of success in the area and I could maybe help keep it from becoming radlib if I get in on the ground floor. I've attended a few DSA meetings where I live currently and their theory was actually pretty good, but I really got involved because I didn't plan to live here long. Any advice?
No.953265
>>953255I advice against this path. You'd better recenter and start building a chapter of a communist party with a good line instead.
No.953314
Comrades, how should a socialist do to try and organise if islamic conservatism is very dominant and communism(marxism-leninism specifically but it's ambiguous) is banned in his country? Considering I am a uni student what is the best thing to do, and how to do to minimise risk of being burned to death or jailed for 7+ years?
No.953373
>>953314I wish i could help you in that. I don't feel confident advising you on this with any degree of confidence.
Are you from iran? I know that there are some communist groups in diaspora, but the safest thing is to just to push within the allowed limits of your country and not try to be explicit about being a marxist or ml, but just to push class conciousness. But don't listen to me, this is so different from my own circumstance that i have no idea. In real talk, looking to lenin, who operated in illegality too, might be worth it.
>>952763thanks
>>952592>but I can try to go to as many meetings as I can.Sounds good
>>952274> my 4chan mind poisoning about how many people want to murder me.Couple steps:
1. Get off 4chan (and this board, for that matter)
2. Get off twitter
3. Go outside and have drinks in a bar at least once a week with some friends. Call up old friends you lost contact with if you dont have any current ones. Go to some event via something like meetup.com or some activity club if you cant find anything.
4. Keep this up for at least half a year
It should help you with your extremely toxic internalised fear and hatred of yourself. You really shouldn't try to see politics as a way for you to fix such a major part of your life, politics is exhausting. The important part is to deprogram yourself
ie touch grass No.953878
>>953373thanks for the advice, i am from the jakarta method country. i might organise a reading club or some sort to get some comrades first, as i am now totally alone and couldn't join any union before getting a job. i know there is a street anarchist presence in a neighbouring province but i have no idea on how to get in touch with them, and i am not really an anarchist.
No.954390
>>952806I love CPK so much lmao
No.963340
hello! my city's communist/left orgs are doing a rally this weekend over a local issue i'm pissed off about. i feel i should show up and support it. not a communist but it's not explicitly a communist rally-it's organized with a range of left and advocacy groups.
i've never actually been to a rally-i don't know anyone here whose really politically active & growing up lived in small places with dead political scenes. im kinda realizing that i have no idea what you do at a rally lol. i've done like canvassing stuff but with that you just show up and they tell you what to do and send you your way. so i guess i'd really appreciate some general pointers and maybe answers to some questions from you more experienced guys
1) safety-is it okay to go alone? should I wear discrete clothing? covid mask to cover face? it's not going to be heated so i don't think there's any worries about cops or anything like that, but i'm just thinking about like if there's going to be people taking photos of protestors or following them home or shit like that esp. since it's going to be a rally with hammer and sicke flag waving communists.
2) what to do when there? just talk to people, ask questions? is there like some specific protest culture/etiquette i should know about? obviously common sense stuff applies-don't be a dick, don't be a sperg, etc but i'm just making sure
3) is it worth going if i can't really commit to future work? i'm busy with uni and work, & i dont plan on formally joining any orgs as they're all demcent parties & i'm not ideologically a good fit for them.
these might be silly questions idk, i just have never really had a chance to do this before and i'm realizing i don't know what i'd be doing. going straight into unknown political situations is kinda nerve wracking i guess.
No.963381
>>963340>safety-is it okay to go alone?Of course!
>should I wear discrete clothing?I wouldn't worry too much tbh, if you want to avoid trouble with cops just wear regular clothing, nothing that makes you look anarchist/black block/antifa/communist. Regular jeans and shirt is fine
>Covid mask to cover face?Just take one to be sure, the organizers might appreciate it depending on what stage of COVID your country is in.
> it's not going to be heated so i don't think there's any worries about cops or anything like that, but i'm just thinking about like if there's going to be people taking photos of protestors or following them home or shit like that esp.Ive never heard of that happening. If it's not gonna be explicitly communist then you should be fine if you just wear normal clothing, the crazies won't target you
>what to do when there? just talk to people, ask questions? Its a great opportunity to meet the local groups. I would hover recommend talking to the ones who are specifically doing things like manning a stand or handing out flyers, they are the ones most likely to feel comfortable with talking to strangers. If you find a group you like, ask if you can come by some time.
>is there like some specific protest culture/etiquette i should know about?Don't take photos or film people. It makes you look like a cop or right wing wacko and lots of the more radical people get upset about it because of possible incrimination.
>is it worth going if i can't really commit to future work? i'm busy with uni and work, & i dont plan on formally joining any orgs as they're all demcent parties & i'm not ideologically a good fit for them. Of course! I think you might be surprised about who you find. You don't need to be a cadre member to be in an org, you can be a "yeah I show up for protests or a cool lecture sometimes" member too! Or just talk to them. If you can network a bit, you can always just say no afterwards.
I think going to that protest is a great idea. Don't worry too much about it getting messy. If it gets sketchy, just leave. You're under no obligation to put yourself in danger if you don't feel comfortable with that. If cops attack a protest, their main goal is to disperse the crowd, not to make casualties, so if you leave you are good. Its unlikely to turn bad though if it's organised by larger less adventurist groups like demsocs, it's mostly the anarchists and antifa who usually invite escalation by the police (sometimes just by being there, the cops hate black block). And the anarchists usually know that if they want to start shit they should do it seperately after the protest, so as to not scare normies away from future protests, they're not stupid.
No.965359
>>953373There's a Zoom meeting being held by the DSA today at 8:30 PM to discuss actions to be taken with regards to the abortion debacle, should I bother attending?
No.978454
>>978432It's a very broad question you ask.
Make contact with unions in other cities. Travel to meetings and make connections, get advice + training and see how workplaces similar to yours organize. Bring this knowledge back to your city and implement it.
inb4 but my circumstances are slightly different, what do
No.979663
>>963345Interdasting… Thanks.
No.993413
What kind of job could I get to help the cause? Or is my political science degree worthless in this regard?
No.993501
>>993413yes probably very worthless
get a normal job, not some lizard person job
No.993557
>>942822How difficult is it to understand that when communists say that you should vote, they are not saying you should *only* vote.
No.993559
>>993413Food production, like learning industrial methods of food production that can be replicated instead of relying on the corporate supply chain. You saw what happened at CHAZ.
Police officer. Literal power with the ranks of our biggest immediate obstacle.
No.993561
>>993557Having read ballots submitted by anarchists (compulsory booting or fine), I can understand someone requesting clarification.
No.993574
>>993501I have a normal job and I hate it, I hate being yelled at by petite bourgeois assholes to fix their shitty Internet connections so they can go on Facebook and whine about Critical Race Theory, I want to do something meaningful
>>993559I don't know if being a cop is such a good idea but I suppose I can see about food production
No.993575
>>993413Your political science degree is actually very useful, you just have to apply it to get into the ranks of the bourgeoisie party apparatus and the subvert the party from the indside aaaand you're an apologist for imperialism and are forming your own social-democratic party.
Sad. Many such cases.
No.993582
>>993575See that's what I'd like to avoid
No.993583
>>993559there's a culture within police departments that weeds out people like anon
Even double binds to pull you into the shit, e.g. getting heat on you for both ratting out corruption and abuses, and for being part of corruption and abuses. No matter what you'll be dragged into it, and forced behind the blue wall of silence. You don't get to be someone reforming from the inside.
(also military is easily a bigger threat + less evil for most people in it and you get good experience)
>>993574im sorry about your experience at your job, i know how it feels. I don't expect to ever have a job i feel "meaningful" since the nature of capitalism is that all your efforts go into private hands, and your job's survival is dictated by how well it competes, not how well it does meaningful or valuable work. Anyways good luck on winning the rat race anon. We're all trying to beat you to get that meaningful job that also pays the bills and doesnt involve being yelled at ;)
My advice is to find meaning outside of work, and try for a job that just doesnt force you to get abused by shitty people
No.993584
>>993582Jokes aside, I think your position to construct a movement is better than you think. Political sciences can get you into some bourgeoisie party or movement, sure, but you should see what their errors in organization are, try to sway the more radical members or sympathizers to your side and eventually break off.
Though, will your comrades be classpilled enough?
No.993594
>>993584you can't just construct a movement by having the right line and trying to steal people involved in bourgeois parties
poli-sci anon would be better off just talking to their neighbors and coworkers
some degrees are just a waste of money (unless you're trying to get in with bourgie political apparatus or academia)
No.993595
>>993594That's exactly what Lenin did
No.993598
>>993595Its what trots do and it doesn't work. Lenin also didn't do that.
No.993599
>>993413I recently learned there's lobbyists for education and universities and whatnot. In the end though political science is a "how to fascilitate imperialism" study, so you might need a backup plan.
No.993612
>>993599(Or build a portfolio, move to china and produce anti western propaganda)
No.993640
>>993638I bet 100% that thread is filled with concern trolls saying stuff like
>the internet isn't for organising >not your personal army >it is simply not possible no point in trying >you're a larper or some variation of these.
All of these responses are however complete and total bullshit, posted by either feds or idiots but the result is the same. The poster is absolutely right.
No.993641
>>978432In their workplace, in their neighbourhood, talk to them and ask them about how things are in these places, start right in the immediate, and gradually expand the picture
No.993681
>>993638there was a song in ussa (that i didn't heard b t w), it said something like "if all (young) guys of all earth…" etc
but later in the 90s or so it was memed as "if all hicks of all eath" (basically if all idiots/brainlets)
so obviosly that works only in theory or in maoist stalinst shit where you need machineguns to shoot hem as well
not convinced, but yeah works in theory
No.993683
>>993681you see the theory implies that the individual is not idiot (while in practice it is greatly overstated)
this was also one reason austrian army (and empire) stopped existing b t w, they overestimated their forced but greatly underestimated russian forces (per capita) in their army, as the result they sucked tremendously and dramatically
and even the nazi commander was fired cuz he was retarded
No.993684
tldr realz > feelz
No.993701
>>952806Kenya is going to be alright 😊
No.993713
>>>915584
Go to work places of workers, and ask them about their material conditions.
Only listen what they say.
Go home read theory about those particular material conditions.
Go back to the worker and present them your theory
See how it goes, do the workers accept your theory ?
Back and forth between theory and praxis, until it fits.
Recruit more workers, students can't be the main base for communist organizing because studenting ends after a few years and then your members evaporate away.
Party politics is hard, you have to ban everything that could lead to interpersonal drama, no relationship between members, no orgies, no social club functions like parties and no culture stuff. Focus only on the material conditions of workers and ignore all the topics that originate in the bourgeois political spectacle.
Start by building dual power as institutions for mutual help.
Get your members to go through military training or other enforcement institutions of the bourgeoisie, that can be a very good way to learn (positive and negative) lessons from the incumbent system. Especially if you have to defend your self against informal terror.
The best opening for socialism to regain prominence will be during partial systemic collapses of late stage capitalism. If your socialist organization can become a support structure for people during crisis, you will be able to entrench it. Your threat model is about defending that support. You are not preparing for a revolt that sweeps the old rulers out of the halls of power. The halls of power are crumbling away, and the next chapter in prehistory will belong to who ever can maintain civilization for the masses.
No.993892
>>993713Hey anon, you got a temp/burner email you can be reached at?
No.993988
Help guys I work at a US supermarket and two of our locations have just filed NLRB election petitions out of the blue. Anybody here been on a union organizing committee before? How do you go about building support?
No.994571
>>993583Thanks comrade
>My advice is to find meaning outside of workYeah I'll try that, thank you
>>993584I mean I figure it certainly wouldn't hurt to have all that information
>>993594I have no idea how to bring up the subject of politics though
>>993599That's what I'm afraid of, I don't want to be some Democratic Party bureaucrat
No.994631
>>994571i bring up politics just like i bring up other stuff: awkwardly and based on what im thinking in the moment
I'm one the one to say how to organize, but how i've breached political topics is just to say "hey ive been thinking about this" and go from there basically. If your relationship to the situation is that you're trying to sell them on smth or recruit then, I'd focus on changing ur relationship to politics to be more chill, getting at the real reasons and understanding how those reasons are kinda universal, and then understanding if some of those reasons for being into politics are just personal autism, and then don't go from that angle unless you wanna just talk about smth that interests you (rather than trying to get them to vibe with it necessarily). I've been asked to join shit with a friend, and basically it was the same, just "hey i been thinking about doing x". I think the casual and self-interested route is the only acceptable one. Cause at the end of the day it is just that you want some change, and u want ppl to help. It helps to make friends first and gauge where their head is at overall, too.
No.994652
>>993640The poster is
semi-right, but as the more serious people in the thread pointed out:
>OP is an idea guy except without even having the decency of a rudimentary idea. Literally just another worthless "WOW WE SHOULD DO SOMETHING" post with no plan>join a group that knows what they fuck they're doing (they mentioned for example joining IWW )>most of the sub are libs>much of the sub aren't USA and most would be in different statesand as I will point out:
>OP is a clueless lib>100:10:1 : if a thousand people saw that, only about 10 would do anything more than click an up arrow or type 'wow that would be great!'Now, of course, I am absolutely not saying that the idea of 'use the interconnected web to amass a force capable of accomplishing useful online things or helping people discover real local groups'. Of course there are things that even shitty /r/antiwork can do (and debatably
have done; see Kellogg's anti-scab raid and legal advice giving). I just realize reddit is an abysmal (design-wise) and
vulnerable place. What they should be doing is finding communities that are capable of action (as much as we like leftypol, I personally think it's better as a social forum than a place to plan, for security reasons and unhelpful legacy). Hell, make a Lemmy instance or other forum hosted in a non-NATO nation to promote some definite actions. But making a vague 'i ll design the logo' post is lib shit that goes literally nowhere.
If I didn't screencap that post, it would have been forgotten already. You personally could do better to organize that community into something helpful.
No.994678
Watch out for orgs that exist solely to rope people in and get them to pay subs solely to fund salaries for "full-time" members. The whole thing gets degraded into cadres basically becoming Mormon missionaries. Complete waste of time. Looking at you, Trots.
No.995161
Reposting from:
>>990739
>>990768
>>992302
>Unfortunately as movements, orgs, and formations remain marginalized, so will these circles be susceptible to abusers, cranks, and opportunists. In order to combat this, mass literacy on trauma and abuse as well as individual principled practice can help insulate growing movements from these behaviors and guide individual comrades to navigate spaces safely and recognize threats to said safety.
>Growing orgs like CPUSA or PSL need to have accountability processes in place to help resolve long term conflicts and increase the capacity for rehabilitation of comrades who are still potential assets in the struggle in the face of allegations of abuse, true or not, that is centered around the needs of the victim as well as conflict resolution in general. Abusive behavior is reactionary behavior. Satiating sadistic or entirely self-serving impulses at the expense of comrades is to me a call-sign of potential corruption or lack of integrity that undermines the organizational culture when attrition and burn out are common problems that every org faces as members die, are caught up in survival in the system, or have not fully committed to action. Interpersonal and abusive dynamics are often times very complicated. NOT having institutional support on a national level to help resolve these is a recipe for same marginalization and attrition that has plagued left orgs for ages now.
>Marginalized movements who have no sense or understanding of mass politics and without such accountability processes will devolve into said cultish practice as they are too absorbed in intellectualizing and gratifying the needs of the abusers. Intellectual rigidity is a sign of dogmatism.
>t. Anon who organizes and encounters these problems way too often.
No.995166
>>995165>Apologies for the late response. Regardless if you see this, I think it'd be handy for other folks.
>First off, when you can, read this study: https://academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4358&context=gc_etds
>Sure, the main focus of the study is anarkiddies but the author uses historical contextual examples using other formations as well like the BPP or SDS. You might pick up something useful regarding interpersonal relations regardless. So imagine all of these issues, success, and limitations that a decentralized community has encountered, and now imagine if disciplined and principled cadre of organizations implemented forms of accountability on a local or national level.
>Suprisingly enough, the only org that has some sort of an restorative/HR/internal conflict resolution type thing is the DSA. Maybe PSL has one after the whole fiasco that was aired on Twitter a few years back, but haven't received an update on that. From what I've seen of which is aired publically, DSA only has a single national harassment officer that coordinated with local chapters and that hasn't been as effective as it could've been over ongoing internal struggles regarding Palestinian solidarity. Now they're considering from what I've heard, expanding this structure to a whole council of grievance officers instead of just one person as it is difficult to juggle all of these things individually. If your org has a bunch of social workers, honestly that could work quite well if you wish to look over what DSA has publically available and adjust it. Demcent is good during crises for dealing with conflicts, but isn't enough for movement building I believe. No.995229
>>952763>critical of natolmfao what, they love both nato and eu, they are also full of anarchists (go figure)
No.995703
>>995166>Apologies for the late response. Regardless if you see this, I think it'd be handy for other folks.No worries. I'm reading it just now :)
Thank you for the link, I'll read it and spread it to the team.
I've looked at DSA's procedures:
https://www.dsausa.org/resources/harassment-and-grievance/Looks like aye good basic framework to build on.
No.995773
>>995703Just be careful anon. You never know if others who may benefit from the lack of internal accountability will crawl out of the fucking woodwork. Just be mindful of those who would pushback against something like this. That's why I recommend reading the study to get a grasp of historical examples to elaborate your case. Not essential, but I think it would really help.
No.1003936
Is there any point to me joining the IWW as a… what's the foodonym for an aussie? Kangaroo? Vegemite? Beer? Halal Snack Pack? Whatever.
-> My industry has a union already,
-> I suspect it would be too dilute to be any more valuable than the existing union.
-> I don't think I would be doing anything valuable in return, beyond donating.
-> I'm in a large corporate, the office alone has 10,000 people and my team is pretty well paid so most peers aren't going to be motivated to organize radically. The young ones are sharing our salaries but that's about it as far as I foresee.
I don't even know what to do with the current union apart from pay dues until I need a laywer or they push out an an enterprise agreement. Almost feels like I'm at the top of the bottom and there's nothing to do but run around to see which orgs need my help.
No.1005423
>>1003936Is there any point to not joining? The best part about joining orgs like the IWW is meeting other people that might introduce you to other radical movements.
Let's say a new radical movement starts in your city that's better than IWW. How are they going to recruit? If they know you're a radical that might be interested, they will ask you first.
No.1007974
>>916859>Trot and ML parties to implodelol, it only happens with Trotskyists.
No.1007995
>>994091>revolution-has-vanished-replaced-with-fantasies-of-dual-power-counterpower-base-areas-abolition-and-other-bottom-up-bourgeois-democratic-illusionsbitch how do you think you organize a revolution? you just assemble a party the night before?
No.1008010
>>994091>one million page maoist essaylmao
No.1008061
>>1007995you quoted a part of the
URL and then asked for clarification, wtf lmao
to answer your question: NO lol, but if you want an in depth answer, PUT THE LINK IN YOUR ADDRESS BAR AND READ THE CONTENTS, OR EVEN THE **ACTUAL TITLE AND NOT JUST THE FILE NAME LMAO
😂**
>>1008010(you) as well, you have been noticed
No.1008227
>>1007957We forbid "slide into dms" of new members. It's our unofficial anti simp rule.
No.1008252
>>1008227what they say:
>We forbid "slide into dms" of new members.what they mean:
<party leaders have first pick of new membersPolitical parties, "activist organisations", "non-profits" are just dating clubs for leftist oriented people. Find me a party or org where those in leadership positions didn't fuck one or more of the members. FIND ME ONE.
No.1008253
>>1008252Unruhe's Protracted Peoples War Brigade
No.1008255
>>1008252United Red Army (Japan)
Members committed suicide because they took self-crit sessions too seriously. Pretty intense atmosphere; don't think anyone was screwing around.
No.1008260
>>1008253I meant existing parties or orgs.
>>1008255I'm talking about contemporary ones, so 90s onwards. This thread is about current organising efforts, and all currents organising efforts boil down to people wanting to fuck.
No.1008262
>>1008260Ok Maupin's org.
No.1008263
>>1008260>>1008262Also the Infrahaz collective. Haz is keeping his purity for Allah.
No.1008264
>>1008262Wasn't a sex video leaked of Maupin? lol
No.1008265
>>1008263Didn't he attempt to have sex with that girl streamer that came to visit him?
No.1008266
>>1008264No that was just meme-ing from glowies because he's affiliated with RT.
No.1008269
>>1008263>>1008265Haz and Sameera Khan are fuggen. They said so on stream. She came out half naked from the shower.
No.1008289
>>1008252>Here is what we do, it works<NOOOO YOU ARE LYING YOU ACTUALLY ARE A SEX PEST WHO USES YOUR POWER TO FUCK ALL THE HOT CHICKS AND BOYS. THIS IS THE TRUTH, EVERYTHING YOU SAY CANNOT BE TRUEStop projecting, kill yourself, sex pest.
No.1008294
>>1008264>Maupin>Muh christian values married incel-tier soyboy ginger in a bad suit>Pulling any pussyplease
No.1008296
>>994091Jesus how long is this article
No.1008315
>>1008294>>1008264it was screenshots of a gay porn video (supposedly) of maupin
No.1008333
>>994091Awful article. Actually most people believe in building all those things in order to build the power to launch an all out offensive.
You can’t launch an all out offensive immediately.
For a guy that is rightly into vanguards, this whole thing is just ultra left bollocks. A revolution takes time
This is fucking long, where does he actually suggest an alternative? I’m guessing it comes down to “do all those things I’ve just said are bad, but do them cool like how I don’t do them but are saying you should”
Or “build a party and vooooote” as if that hasn’t been tried endlessly. The problem being that nobody will vote for you unless you have a strong base, and that base will lack discipline unless it actually has a reason to stick with you, I.e you are actually doing things for them.
Just some salty trot pretending to be a based Stalinist probably mad his 4 member party still has 4 members while the youth are actually out engaging people.
Sad. Many cases.
No.1008342
>>994091This is written by exactly the guy who starts speaking at a meeting and everyone switches off because they know what’s coming. Absolutely nothing tangible or useful to what is being discussed, tangent after vaguely related tangent, the chair asking the them to wrap it up, only for them to raise their voice and move on to another unrelated point, head so far up their own arse they can’t even see the blatant boredom they have just brought to an otherwise vibrant endeavour. He tries to open up his rants to people post meeting and they move off to somebody else. Frustrated, he goes home and writes this blog post where he feels the need to write (1920) after he cites infantile disorder lmao.
Hopped up on his own big brained intelligence, lots of finicky “well akshually”
Nobody cares Kenny, you’re fucking boring
No.1008461
>>1008289why are you triggered by an anon mentioning something you totally don't do? why do you feel called out? wait, you aren't aware your leaders are "sliding in people's dms"? you sweet summer child…
No.1008488
>>1008061>>994091>you quoted a part of the URL and then asked for clarificationI didn't ask for clarification. That's a rebuttal to the retarded argument that I could glean from the URL alone.
>READ THE CONTENTS, OR EVEN THE **ACTUAL TITLE AND NOT JUST THE FILE NAME LMAO The title is literally the same as the URL.
As for the article itself:
>For all their aversion to collective discipline and democratic centralism, for all their anti-vanguardism, for all their donning of dogmatic ideologies and petty sectarian bickering, it’s striking how firmly united most Leftists under the age of 35 in the US are on the notion that passing out free food, doing community gardens, and (maybe…most never get this far) some NGO-style tenant organizing will lead to…revolution? Beneath the absurdity lies the fact that revolution—in the sense of a civil war in which the bourgeoisie is overthrown, their state apparatus is destroyed, and the means of production are seized—has vanished from people’s political horizons. It has been replaced with grandiose illusions bearing monikers such as dual power, counterpower, “base areas,” and abolition. Unifying all these illusions is the notion that it’s possible to carve out “bottom-up” direct democratic forms of territorial (or “community”) control by the proletariat and oppressed people that gradually supplant bourgeois power without having to launch an all-out offensive aimed at the seizure of power—in other words, eating away at bourgeois rule without ever having to decisively overthrow it.So the whole thing is a massive straw man. People don't do these things for their own sake, but as part of building a revolutionary organizaiton. Dual power and so on are ways to recruit people by way of proving at present that communistic models of organizing can help meet the people's needs that capitalism fails to do. It is much more effective to prove our case through action than words. The point, however, is to amass power so that eventually there will be the critical mass (and even more importantly, an
already existing and functional communist organization that can handle large-scale supply and logistics) necessary to do a revolution.
No.1008517
>>1008461All you constantly do is post retarded shit, accusing anyone offering a solution as secretly plotting to do the opposite. You have no fucking idea about other people's orgs and how they behave, yet you accuse them of being the scum of the earth to a degree or specificity that I can only conclude you yourself have the fantasies you constantly throw at others. Yes you piss me off because your a right twat who doesn't do shit other than shit up internet forums, fantasize about power abuse and act just like some holier than thou liberal policing clapping.
No.1008520
>>1008488Exactly.
It’s actually mad he took the time to do it really. It must be what, at least 10,000 words? Mans wrote a dissertation about how awful it is that some well meaning students handed out some food without first getting the consent of 1/5th of the local population, with citations and everything.
Somebody really needs to learn to chill. Reeks of autism and not in the good way
No.1008521
>>1008517Also yes I know for a fact they "don't slide into dms" because I know them. It's not even about leadership, who have 0 respect in my hyper anti hierarchical national culture, but about random members who are sex pests, like the guy dming every new female member and asking to be dominated and asking for feet pics. that's the kind of people we kick out and make clear to others that this is unacceptable.
If you want to project your own depraved fantasies of being the eternal glorious leader of some random sect, go write some stuff on a fanfic site, but leave normal people out of it. We don't have eternal leaders, the only thing leadership entitles you to is being shit on on a constant basis, which is why nobody does it other than out of pure revolutionary duty.
Kill yourself.
No.1008561
>>915584it's lonely here in west coast Canada, I am having zero luck finding orgs even around my town.
No.1008873
>>1007974I'll admit that I can't think of any major sex scandals that caused an ML party to implode, but that's because almost the entire organized ML movement imploded for other reasons over the course of the 1980s. I have no doubt that the leaders of New Left ML sects were often abusing their authority to have sex with student recruits, but it wasn't until the 2010s that this became widely viewed as exploitative. Take for example the Workers' Institute of Marxism-Leninism-Mao Zedong Thought, an ML political organization that devolved into an out-and-out sex cult starting in the 1980s.
My main point still stands: the structural form of older leaders recruiting young students makes this kind of exploitation possible, and the practice of Comintern-model "democratic centralism" makes it much worse. Right now it seems that ML organizations have been growing much faster than Trot groups. I think a major reason for this is popular image of Trotskyist splitting and sex scandals over the past decades (the history of ML splitting in the New Communist Movement is unknown to them). However, as long as these ML groups continue to share the same Comintern model of party organization, wherein members must hide their political views in public and the leadership manages control of information and debate, they're eventually going to run into the same problems. Case in point: we're already starting to see a string of minor sex scandals in ML parties, one in the PSL last yearish and apparently one going on in the Young Communist League right now.
>>1007957If you didn't see it already I have an earlier post dealing with the subject above (
>>916859 , also I'm not this guy
>>1008252 ). Besides that, having party confidantes or greivance officers is a good idea as suggested above. You also mentioned the UK SWP - they infamously mishandled the allegation against "Comrade Delta", but I've heard lately that they mishandled a recent allegation of sexual abuse in the complete opposite way. A completely anonymous blog post came out accusing one of the leaders of the SWP of sexual assault, and rather than investigate the matter at all they immediately announced the expulsion of the accused member. The problem was that there was zero corroborating evidence and the defendant in question was in a long term relationship and was not known to hit on anyone in the party. He eventually took his case to state courts as libel and won. I read about all this in the Weekly Worker sometime last year but I can't for the life of me find the article. Anyway, the evidence points to the guy being innocent and it's a warning of what can happen if measures against sexual abuse in the party go too far (where to draw that line I'm not sure).
>how has the "no fucking within the party" worked out in previous movements?I honestly can't think of any parties that had this rule, but I can think of a few that banned fucking
outside the party. J. Posadas' sect and the little known Democratic Workers' Party both regulated the sex lives of members. They insisted that both partners be members of the sect and demanded that the decision to have children should be approved by party leadership (less time for selling newspapers, you see). The DWP also demanded that all homosexual members hide their orientation in public, despite the group originally being founded by a bunch of lesbians.
No.1009690
>>1003936Yeah it's worth it because they've got good tools and resources plus training.
Join for upskilling imo if nothing else.
No.1009693
>>1008255>Members committed suicide because they took self-crit sessions too seriously.damn
No.1009695
>>1008255they killed someone for masturbating and visiting a bath house
No.1010304
>>1008255They were still fucking. It's just that most of the time the sex pests were killed.
No.1010314
>>1010304If the movie about the URE is accurate then they actually were revolutionary celibates. The second victim in the movie was subjected to a "struggle session" for wearing makeup and therefore "putting sex above the revolution". For her alleged crimes she was tied to a tree in the winter cold and frozen to death.
No.1010322
>>1010314I'm not going to lie. The only thing I know about the URE is from that movie too. You do have to remember, however, that one of the characters was a mother.
No.1010523
>>916546Holy fucking shit
No.1010537
>>1010314Glad to see the revcel movement is as strong as ever
No.1010632
>>1008333>this much cope and projectionsage why can't you be normal
No.1010641
>>1008488>The point, however, is to amass power so that eventually there will be the critical mass (and even more importantly, an already existing and functional communist organization that can handle large-scale supply and logistics) necessary to do a revolution.I'd like to know what your understanding is of how a revolution could plausibly take place? I've been reading more lately and it seems like Lenin's model was that the party is for propagandizing and leading the revolution (having a program based on a deep understanding of the situation, and who have come to resolutions on how to deal with certain economic problems of, initial steps to take, etc.), but ultimately they wait and propagandize until there is a revolutionary movement already which is powerful and sweeps away (maybe temporarily+locally) the power of the bourgeoisie, and then to help organize soviets and then to struggle for the communist position within these soviets, and these will be the government of the dictatorship of the proletariat.
I never see the idea of soviets in modern (loose) revolutionary programs outside of dual power ideas, which lenin explicitly calls out as a bad practice, since the point is to replace and break up the bourgeois government, and if they're set up but have no power people will lose interest in them and it'll be propaganda against the idea of soviets. This idea seems to be held up by practice.
I think kites is cool cause they're actually trying to be constructive and put out sensible and thoughtful analyses- but as far as i can tell they have NO clear program, and their main claim to action is "going to the masses" and doing social investigation. But there is a consistency there, since they follow the tried and true method of building up a vanguard party of dedicated communists rather than a mass party with the dual intentions of both building up knowledgeable communists, and also doing direct action and being a sort of community council, all wrapped up in one.
Since no one seems to have a coherent revolutionary program, I'd love to ask you if you happen to? I'm here to learn
>>1008561Back in the day the strategy was one big party, and local sects of even two or three members. This was deemed super important. We don't have any competent revolutionary party anymore… RIP
No.1010664
Great thread, it was a pleasure going through you anons' thoughts.
Here's hoping there's anything setup here in Puerto Rico. Shit is fucking depressing in here.
No.1010665
>>1010664Quick search on CPUSA and even >DSA brings no results. Shit's fucked
No.1010666
>>1008258This is Jason Unruhe's mods?
No.1034622
Howw can we move organizing away from closed, antagonisitc platforms like facebook?
Can we have a way to track Hot Protests In Your Area?
No.1035062
>>1034622there are a million private ways to communicate. Pick a handful of ways to contact ur org on any propaganda, books, etc. u distribute. Also talk to ppl face to face. There's no reason to organize online. You're not there to organize leftoid hobbyists into a hobby group. You're there to organize the proletariat (and sympathetic petite-bourg and lumpens) into an educational and war machine. Facebook's only use for this is spreading propaganda, but not organizing
No.1035124
CP of Canada imploding and purging over a sex scandal. Get your formation a grievance process ASAP folks.
No.1036007
>>1010641The kites article is 100% correct and it's mainly opportunists, revisionists and social fascists who are seething that their wasting their time doing all these defensive programs. The fact that nobody takes seriously the experience the Malcolm X society in doing electrorialism speaks volumes of the white supremacy that permeate these "revolutionary" charity groups (they'll also tell you to vote foe democrats or Bernie Sanders)
No.1036963
>>1035124So is Figthback lol
No.1036969
>>1035124I'm especially disappointed about this one since I had been getting involved with my local chapter and liked everything I saw. I was even going to apply for membership, but now people I know are being purged for siding with the victim.
No.1037166
>>1036969>>1036963Any juicy details on the scandal? For the sake of materialist analysis, of course.
No.1038110
>>1035124>Get your formation a grievance process ASAP folks.Any suggestions to copy?
No.1038118
>>1010632What is exactly is projection or cope about it? It is exactly your typical hoighty toity I am the only real Leninist listen to me you silly ultras while I present a criticism that is objectively ultra leftist.
So often people harp on about going to the masses as if they are this noble and mythical unicorn being. In fact, it is just everybody around you, unless of course, you are a pseud blog writer and all your friends are doing a PHD or work for an NGO… in which case you are actually still part of "the masses" probably, many people writing a PHD are skint. Neither are the masses in any way homogenous and very rarely is there consensus on much, or even consensus on the frames through which to look at things.
Having railed against these orgs not doing enough social investigation and "going to the masses" enough, in whatever fatuous fashion he means by that, he then goes on to tell us all, as if we didn't know, that a communist party should be preparing for an all out offensive on capitalism, as if those two things, at this stage, aren't completely ludicrous when said together.
The simple fact remains, the vast majority of the proletarian in western countries are not ready for an all out assault on capitalism, far from it.
First then, they must be organised into formations which resist capitalism directly, then through an actual, dialectal process of them learning through experience, they will come to see who the real enemies are and how they operate.
They will not learn through haughty blogs. They will not even learn, through you knocking on their door and talking to them about it. They will learn, through getting together to fight for something, and winning, or losing, repeatedly, collectively.
Only once this process has been repeated numerous times, by a lot of people, so that it is an engrained part of culture, having learned lessons, hard lessons, will those people have the discipline and knowledge necessary to actually carry out a revolutionary program.
Nobody, and I mean, nobody ever, has "gone to the masses" successfully by knocking on their door to ask them if they would like to do an all out assault on capitalism one day. It has literally never happened. To speak therefore, at this stage, of building a party with explicit stance of "launching an all out offensive" in this manner is objectively ultra leftist. If we were to say, we must begin organising so that one day we may launch an all out offensive, this is one thing, the correct things, to poo poo organisational efforts which directly involve the empowerment of the proletariat based on their lack of immediate all out offensive is frankly ridiculous. Kites blog should reveal which all out offensive he is preparing for so we can all have a good laugh
Many times however, communities have united over local issues, and workers over work place issues, which have then coalesced into intra communal or sector wide struggles.
again, all of this takes time.
There is literally not one piece of projection in my post. I am not a member of a political party, I am only a member of organisations which are specifically designed to carry out social investigation among the masses, and bring them together to do something about it.
There does not exist, in the USA, a communist party " going to the masses" in the way he describes. There does not exist one in the UK, although the one that is closest to doing it in any meaningful way supports the organisations I am part of.
No.1038122
What do you guys think of George Jackson?
No.1038931
>>1038110The DSA has a publically available template called Resolution 33, but it is flawed and insufficient as orgs grow and the workload mounts. What is likely needed is a national *council* of trauma-informed harassment grievance officers. Currently the grievance process itself is subject of vicious infighting by the Dem-placating National who are using gaps in the structure to retaliate against the principled anti-imperialists within the org.
PSL has a process too I believe, but I don't know the details.
Refer to:
>>995161>>995165>>995166for more details.
No.1039142
>>1010641>Lenin's model was that the party is for propagandizing and leading the revolution […], but ultimately they wait and propagandize until there is a revolutionary movement already which is powerfulThere's no reason to simply wait when you can help precipitate the revolutionary moment and build working class power to put the revolution in a better position when its time arrives.
>since the point is to replace and break up the bourgeois government, and if they're set up but have no power people will lose interest in them and it'll be propaganda against the idea of soviets.It's only propaganda against the idea of the soviets if you fail to do anything useful with them or (wrongly) promise that organizing people in this way is itself going to revolutionize society. Contrarily, organizing people directly in the present is a more effective form of propaganda than simply biding your time and telling people the end is nigh. It's much harder to effectively guide a revolutionary movement if you don't already have a working relationship with the people, and it's additionally harder to have a deep understanding of the situation if you don't work with the people in the class struggle.
>Since no one seems to have a coherent revolutionary program, I'd love to ask you if you happen to? I'm here to learnYes, and it has enough in common with Lenin's plan, the difference being that the more you prepare for the revolution (by organizing and arming the workers) the more ready they will be. Dual power and the like is not the end in itself nor is it simply a "defensive" program as
>>1036007 says, but it also functions as outreach/propaganda and material proof for alternative modes of production and distribution. Revolutionary organizations in the pre-revolutionary stage need to find the cracks in the system and handle the problems facing the workers that capitalism cannot and/or that it creates. In this sense they are defensive, but they also demonstrates how to construct a replacement and creates more opportunity to prepare (education, training, accumulating resources) by alleviating the strain placed on people by capitalism. Your outer circle should be involved in solving problems and marshaling resources to solve those problems, such as coordinating people in doing mutual aid. Your inner circle should be involved in educating, training, establishing contact with organizations elsewhere, more secretive actions like arming people, etc.
Recruitment to the organization proceeds from the outer to the inner, with theoretical education and participation in the organization being part of the process. This way people can benefit from and participate in the work the organization does, under the guidance of the communists who take any opportunities to push the people and related organizations in a more revolutionary direction, which is the short-term big picture function being fulfilled. This entails pushing the various organizations involved in class struggle (like unions) to become more militant and coordinated so they can do more effective action and build their strength. It's also important to have multiple centers or cells and to expand the inner circle so that there are too many people to effectively repress or control. To that end, the most essential education to be engaged in is not simply education in theory, but in how to organize and educate people. The body/bodies of theory are all there already and aren't in danger of disappearing in the way that effective organizers and educators are. And the thing about this method is that there are already people out there who actually are just doing charity, but you can bring them into the fold by making their efforts more effective at what they want to do and growing the revolutionary organization with people who are already engaged enough to be doing (as yet ineffective) work.
No.1039501
>>1038118>this smug>obviously didnt read the thing he's claiming to criticize>just as much of a "My org is the only one doing anything, no you don't "go to the masses", idiot, you GO TO THE MASSES like I do it, I am the only real Leninist listen to me you silly ultras" as he claims the thing he didn't read is about>this much projection>all this text to say nothingdisappointing
No.1039541
>>1039142this is a really great response anon, thanks
I'm sure I mischaracterized Lenin's strategy, since active involvement in class struggle for the purpose of raising people's political consciousness is key, and so it's no difference between your strategy and the OG one.
I think on the topic of dual power and filling in the failure of capitalism, one side of the coin is class struggle and the other is doing the government's work for it. Within activist and anarchist conceptions, the goal of dual power is worded the same as you put it, to fill in the cracks - the problem with this is that no dual power is established this way, there's only state power and charity/NGO-tier activism, whereas actual dual power would be contesting state power. And similarly, class struggle has to move beyond conceptions of failure of capitalism as cracks, because in reality they're antagonisms, and you have to take a side and fight rather than inhabit the crack opened to communist, solidaristic class power ways of doing things. The struggle is a struggle and, well the only example I have is the panthers, who really were engaging deeply in class struggle and it got into illegal means of strongarming people, and they had their neighborhood centers where people could come and get help with their problems, enlist to help, etc. They ended up getting raided and even fighting battles from those offices. Dual power means dual power, and power comes from the barrel of a gun. You're demonstrably 100% right about the need to organize, build up proletarian power, organizational capacity, knowledge and culture, etc. - but calling this dual power seems like a lie. It's a power struggle, there always is cuz the class war is always going on, but it's not an actual replacement, back-burner government which is ready to step in. These things always fall into activist causes and peter out, or they get in a shootout with government forces and don't last. There's a real need to take things in stages - to build worker's power, to agitate and help with organizing insurrectionary or insurgent moments, and then to step in to organize governing bodies.
But i can see the value also in getting people a political education through some dual power structure, my contention is that it won't be able to be a real organ of class power while out in the open. I don't see why underground or issue-specific organizations wouldn't also give the same level of political training and understanding of proletarian power and all of that- but with ability to fully wage class struggle, fully able to hold actual (if limited) power in their hands.
On another note, recently I've been thinking about the difference between leninist and maoist conceptions of revolutionary work. They're not far off, but the maoists have much more emphasis on the direct fight, and take for granted to obviousness of oppression and the causes. In america it seems like a split approach can be used, because people living in the barrios and ghettos and reservations know basically what the problem is, there's a general understanding that there's a war on, and there's no doubt about the economic causes, cause corruption is all around. So we have pockets of imperialized nations within the country which traditionally that's the sphere of maoist work, while the rest of the (mostly white) working class falls more towards needing to build up a political consciousness, and needing to build up solidarity, and so falling under the leninist conception of what needs to be done. It doesn't make sense to a street hustler to focus on unionizing and class struggle, but lumpens need communism as much as anyone else. I think we gotta approach the situation from that dual perspective. Anyways i'm just some person in a place with 0 politically going on yet lots of desperation and poverty and drugs, i'm not politically active so i'm not saying anything from experience, just lots of book-learning.
No.1039562
>>1039541>the problem with this is that no dual power is established this way, there's only state power and charity/NGO-tier activism, whereas actual dual power would be contesting state power. And similarly, class struggle has to move beyond conceptions of failure of capitalism as cracks, because in reality they're antagonisms, and you have to take a side and fight rather than inhabit the crack opened to communistYeah I meant to add to the previous post an extention to the metaphor that once you fill in the cracks you form a wedge you can drive into them to threaten the power of the current state and mode of production. In practical terms this means moving on from just picking up the slack of capitalism but taking over functions that it does try (and usually fail) to perform. That way you put the current system in the position of making itself overtly antagonistic to the interests of the people. One of the most direct ways to do this is by providing security. The Black Panthers are a good example of this, having patrols guarding their community from police. That's a step up from "filling in cracks" by running clinics for people without healthcare. One of the most fundamental functions of the state is providing security through force, and if you can usurp that function even partially you do a lot (at the very least ideologically) to undermine the current order. Not to mention the direct benefits to the people.
>It's a power struggle, there always is cuz the class war is always going on, but it's not an actual replacement, back-burner government which is ready to step in. These things always fall into activist causes and peter out, or they get in a shootout with government forces and don't last.The organizations tend to come and go no matter what. The challenge is to build real gains that can outlast any individual person or organization. This is hard to conceptualize in our current situation where communism globally has seen such a big setback. But fortunately a lot of the history of class struggle and labor movements exist and can be learned from or reignited. We don't have to start completely from scratch. And that's part of the problem here, no currently existing organization (party or otherwise) is going to be what drives the real revolution (at least most likely not). Dual power isn't a permanent second state, because if we could get to that point we'd have the ability to replace it. It's just the means by which we wrest control from capitalism and the state while still living under them, and the way we can hold in reserve the power we need to take action when the opportunity presents itself, regenerating when something fails. What we call it isn't really what matters. What matters is its function of moving history forward by building up working class power.
>my contention is that it won't be able to be a real organ of class power while out in the open. I don't see why underground or issue-specific organizations wouldn't also give the same level of political training and understanding of proletarian power and all of that- but with ability to fully wage class struggle, fully able to hold actual (if limited) power in their hands.It would behoove us to use a combination of many strategies at once, some of them overt and some of them covert. As I suggested before, we want to knit together the organizations that already exist or are now forming that are involved (or trying to be) in the class struggle in some way or another. The reason you would want a "main" or "central" organization that is (more or less) open is so that anybody who is open to taking that step from just being in the class struggle to being a Communist will have the opportunity. It really doesn't need to be centralized that much though; local chapters of course should be able to engage in education and training more or less autonomously.
>I think we gotta approach the situation from that dual perspective.Yes, we should be using a mix of strategies appropriate to a given situation. Not just for different parts of the world, but for opposing different parts of the system in the same place. Smashies have their uses. Socdems have their uses. Maoist guerillas have their uses. Part of the problem we need to overcome is the attachment to tendency so much that we write off useful methods because they aren't part of our special brand of communism. Strategy and tactics have to be evaluated in context. Whether a certain move in a game of chess is a good or bad move depends on the state of the board.
No.1040840
>>915584Any advice on organizing unions within industries where workers are borderline petite-bourgoeis and have no serious material complaints, like in STEM?
No.1040853
>>1040840Invest your efforts organizing unions in places where they are actually needed.
No.1040886
>>1040853How can you organize unions in places you don't work and don't interact with the people?
No.1040977
>>1040886Join a general-purpose union (IWW being the most famous example) and act as a liaison or equivalent to the workers in those industries.
No.1041344
>>1038931Thanks.
Basically it seems to me that the rule of "don't shit where you eat" is a good rule of thumb.
No.1042253
>>1041344Eh. I think institutionally established mass literacy on abuse and trauma is more important as abusive behaviors isn't always of the sexual nature. If comrades fall in love, I think that's fine, as long as they know the red flags that may interfere with their health, the heath of other comrades, and their work.
Like Lenin had sex. He just wasn't an abusive, reactionary charalatan as most of the sex scandals in recent decades seem to suggest of the accused.
No.1042346
>>1042253>institutionally established mass literacy on abuse and trauma is more important as abusive behaviors isn't always of the sexual natureIt should be part of core education, because it's directly relevant to class struggle as a common form of abuse and control used by capitalists, politicians, media, clergy, etc against the workers.
No.1043389
>>1042346Absolutely x100. If folks have on-boarding meetings, I suggest displaying it as a prominent feature of organizing experience within this group. Also, consider this: what is the existence of the proletariat, but heaps of trauma placed upon them? To bridge the gap of understanding between us and the masses and to address the underlying concerns of workers, we must learn how to respect boundaries, understand what constitutes the trauma of who we are reaching out to and thus improve how to effectively show solidarity.
No.1044094
>>1043721The National Lawyer's Guild in the US is something kinda similar although it isn't explicitly communist. Any thoughts on them if you have any? Or do you want groups like that to place a more explicit emphasis in your post?
No.1044102
>>1044094>Or do you want groups like that to place a more explicit emphasis in your post?Exactly. It's one thing for a group like this to have vague commitments to broad concepts like civil rights or progressive politics. It's entirely another to have a group that consciously aims to wage class struggle in the courts with the explicit goal of aiding in the proletarian conquest of power. It's like the difference between a anti-capitalist and a yellow labour union.
No.1044105
How viable would it be to organize through a "Church" of Communism to benefit from tax-exemption and the other bullshit that the SCOTUS is currently passing regarding religions? There are currently lawsuits being brought by Jewish people and the Satanic Temple to demand a right to abortion under religious freedom principles, since both groups treat abortion a religious ritual. We are of course on track for christo-fascism, but even then you could form a "Christian" communist church or even one that is crypto-communist. How viable would something like this be for outreach, as a front organization, or even as the org itself?
No.1044113
>>1044105Isn't that what basically what Caleb Maupin and Keaton Mansford are doing with the CPI?
No.1044119
>>1044105The Church of Karl Marx of Latter-Stage Capitalism.
No.1044218
>>1043721Isn't this just liberal reformism? I guess if the focus is on helping individual people's cases it's not though.
No.1044220
>>1044105As a big fan of Jesus Christ I think he's clearly a communist. I don't think it would be a big stretch. Realistically, they just won't bother allowing it though. It may be better to have it be a religious front WITHOUT explicit communist ties, but in reality you personally and all the other members are just also coincidentally communists?
No.1044231
>>1044218No, it's waging class struggle on the front of legal battles. Like I said, this would need to be combined with a wider range of strategies including electoralism, mass line, mutual aid, labour action, militant activity (in Minecraft), etc. However all of these other areas would benefit from having a robust legal arm that could frustrate and even thwart attempts to deploy the legal system against the ruling class movement.
No.1044883
>>1040840Social justice unionism.
Basically drop material interests and build a de-facto union over issues like the employer being involved in "illiberal causes*, like selling arms or supporting gentrification or doing business with an anti-trans law firm. Lean into idpol, and look for ways to turn allyship into solidarity. For example if your employer has H1B staff try to use their identity as a platform for idpol "allyship" - and then turn that into real solidarity rather than white guilt. This will build an activist core that can step in when your field is proletarianized.
UAW has had a lot of success with grad students as well, I think going after early career professionals is the way.
No.1044962
>>1044218>Isn't this just liberal reformism?Everything that isn't revolution is reformism. Sometimes you just gotta use the tools to have to address the problems as they arise. Just keep your eye on the prize and it all adds up imo.
No.1044966
>>1044883>UAW has had a lot of success with grad students as well, I think going after early career professionals is the way.Can you expand on this, never heard of them…
No.1045154
>>1043721This was actually implemented on a wide scale during the years of the Comintern. It was called International Red Aid, and it was devoted to "organise material and moral assistance to vanguard fighters for the cause of communism who are locked in prison, forced into exile, or for any reason excluded against their will from our fighting ranks". The most successful section of the IRA was its US affiliate, International Labor Defense, led by later Trotskyist pioneer James P. Cannon.
<Cannon mapped out plans for the ILD in a 1925 discussion in Moscow with exiled IWW leader Big Bill Haywood. “Deeply concerned about the persecution of workers in America,” Cannon later recalled, Haywood “wanted to have something done for the almost forgotten men lying in jail all over the country…. They were not criminals at all, but strike leaders, organizers, agitators, dissenters – our own kind of people. Not one of them was a member of the Communist Party! But the ILD defended and helped them all.”
<The ILD’s greatest campaign was for the victimized anarchists Nicolo Sacco and Bartolomeo Vanzetti, framed up and convicted of murder in a robbery. International Red Aid launched an international campaign to save them from execution, which included demonstrations in the tens of thousands. The two defendants were executed regardless, but the Sacco-Vanzetti case remained a defining experience in the radicalization of a generation.The reason that you've probably at least heard of Sacco and Vanzetti's case, as opposed to the dozens of accused anarchists of the nineteenth century, was thanks to the tireless efforts of International Red Aid. They defended all "prisoners of the class war" even if they didn't share the politics of the Comintern. What makes this story tragic is that James P. Cannon himself later became a prisoner of the class war when he was sentenced in the first ever Smith Act trial in 1941. Not only did the CPUSA refuse to support his case, they actively
celebrated the jailing of the "Trotskyite wrecker". This later came back to bite them when the Smith Act was turned against the CPUSA itself in the 1950s, devastating the party.
Source is here:
https://johnriddell.com/2021/07/29/international-red-aid-1922-1937/ No.1045170
>>1045154Thank u so much for effort post anon
Can u share ur list of personal theory that u found most important to get this smart?
No.1045179
>>1045154So it was q comie version of anarchist black cross? Cool.
No.1045224
>>1045154This is exactly the kind of thing I had in mind, I'll definitely look into it more.
No.1071028
hey does anyone know why the ML parties (USA) have such different tactics than the MLM parties? To explain what I mean, CPUSA and PSL both cater more towards the myriad activist/political struggles, while FRSO basically flat out says the importance of socialists is in embedding in the working class (i guess they mean like unskilled jobs for the most part) and then (agitating and) properly summarizing the outcomes of various efforts at class struggle. Basically MLs be like "yeah join our mass org, we do marches and shit, also everything under the sun as long as it helps ppl" (PSL e.g. seems to have a heavy focus on the housing issue and all it's facets and struggles around that), while maoists be like "join the rank and file of the working class and help directly with political education through class struggle. The only difference between a socialist and non-socialist worker is that you know how capitalism works, so you can sum up experiences more accurately and with a class bent that gets people class conscious"
What's the deal? both seem good. Any of the organized huge dick/breast chads want to tell me which your org does or which u think is better? Cuz tbh FRSO is the only non-clowny party in the US but they're still kinda clowny. It's weird how PSL at least is obviously catering more to activist and leftist types than about like merging class struggle with socialism. Maoists seem cool but why are they not taken more seriously? Why have trots and ML boomers dominated? Tbh idek what CPUSA is about as far as action, it seems to have less reach even than PSL, but they seem more labor oriented and less activisty.
i'm not in any org rn cuz i'm a student and live in the basically depopulated apocalyptic wasteland that is western middle america, so sadly i dont have any experience with any of these guys to go off of so i might be wildly misinformed, just getting my shit from what their websites and publications focus on but not seeing their local impacts
No.1072238
>>1071028It's wrong to say that frso does not cater to activists, all maoist formations attempt to work from the relatively advanced masses to the intermediate masses. The reason that the frso has such a disproportionally large role in organized labor is that the current incarnation of the frso grew out of a split from high union density states, and that they actually practice union infiltration. But the bulk of frso activity was in the oppressed nationalities movement when i was a member. My experience in the FRSO was during the George Floyd summer and they were not really able to support new locals. They also insisted on recruiting through front groups and it became a chicken and egg problem where we didn't have enough manpower to build a front group to get more manpower.
I think that another problem that the FRSO has is that it, as the only above-ground national maoist formations in the country, pulls in a lot of maoists who then realize that it is actually M-L more than maoist and leave. I think a large formation organized in Florida under FRSO and the split off. They are in this weird cognitive dissonance of supporting the current PRC while at the same time supporting CPP, NLFP etc.
No.1072377
You have to think about communist organisation with the resolute idea that you mean to overthrow the world capitalist system and the full consequences of that idea in your mind. This is not an arena for half measures. The thing you intend to do, if done correctly, will liberate the working masses from the culmination of thousands of years of class struggle. It is a historical sea change that would change forever the course of humanity. Because of this, there are extremely powerful interests, with massive resources, and absolute not moral scruples, who will resist to the death, probably yours, whatever form of organising against them you attempt to achieve.
Because of the vast power imbalance, and because of the nature of capitalism. You will NEVER have as much capital as they do. You will NEVER has as many resources to buy weapons. You will NEVER have the same level of technology.
You are left then with two advantages, the weight of numbers of working class people compared to the bourgeoise, and the ability to withdraw your labour, which is what creates all value within the capitalist system. These two advantages work only in tandem. You do not have the numbers if they are unable to work together, you do not have the ability to withdraw your labour if it is not in numbers.
The entire communist game therefore is getting people to work together, in vast numbers, to cease working for the capitalist it to work for themselves.
The removal of labour does not necessarily mean the strike, but every endeavour which removes the proletarian from their historical place as an instrument of production, to their historical place as an instrument of revolution. The repurposing of human labour for revolution is the withdrawal of labour from the capitalist system and into the revolutionary system. A soldier in the red army has withdrawn their labour from capital and now works actively against it.
This represents an inherent problem however. In the immediate, in an unstable system, the larger the numbers, the more difficult it will be for these people to work harmoniously together. To strike as one. The interests are so various and vast, coming from all different kinds of perspectives, that it is inevitable they will come into conflict, even in the pursuit of revolution. If they act sporadically, coming to differing conclusions, which may make them work against each other, they will not be able to achieve revolution.
The interests must therefore be lead by a body which represents their shared interest alone, that is, their class interests. This body is of course the communist party.
The communist party, in order to achieve its purpose, must be completely resistant to, subversion, assassination, arrest, infiltration, ideological degeneration, dogmatism, infighting, and so on.
The only way to over come external problems, assassination and so on, subversion, is to act so as that your actions are not detectable. Your ideas not known. Your leadership not known.
But then, how can this leadership gain the trust of masses? How can this leadership direct the diverse interests of the working class, when the working class do not even know their name?
This is why in discussing organising, we must discuss 2 things: the creation of mass organisations, which are the only means by which large numbers of proletarians can come to decisions to resist their situation and 2 the relationship of a hidden communist party to these organisations, which is the only body which could possibly successfully lead these mass organisations.
So when I think about organising, it is split completely. At the same time, amongst the masses, we must act in a certain way, suggest certain structures, unions which are member lead, directly democratic, from the bottom, are necessary by fact in order to properly engage membership.
But, how can there be democracy within a hidden paty? Democracy of which the proletariat have a say? Not possible. Though, if the relationship of the party agents is simply to be within the mass movements, pushing them forward, and collecting the perspectives of proletarians within them, the party leadership can begin to become informed of the wants and needs of the masses and answer to them.
So, there is organising in the one sense and organising in the other.
I'm gonna write more posts on this. I'm not sure how long I've rambled now.
No.1072651
>>1072377>You have to think about communist organisation with the resolute idea that you mean to overthrow the world capitalist system and the full consequences of that idea in your mind.is that why you're a part of an org whose peak activity is collecting signatures for a petition?
No.1072664
>>1072660No, Sage, I'm not mad, I'm just pointing out that you like to talk shit and pretend you know things, but when it comes to you DOING something, you do fuck all. You're a manager in a fucking coffee shop and a canvasser for a tenants union (this is doubtful cause you haven't mentioned them in a while, so maybe you got bored of it), but you go on like you're a champion of the workers. You enjoy smelling your own farts ans going on long diatribes because it gives you a dopamine boost. I'm here to call you out on your bullshit. Deal with it.
No.1072667
>>1072651>>1072664Useless comments. Anon gives an insightful effort post and your response contributes nothing. Not a single organization that currently exists in North America has the means, structure, and theory of change to be worthy of being considered a credible organ of revolutionary struggle. As such, make a case for your own if it is, become the change we need to see, or stop being an armchair critic. Simple as. Address the substance of the post or stop bitching.
>>1072377>subversion, assassination, arrest, infiltration, ideological degeneration, dogmatism, infightingTo add on to this post, this is why a harassment grievance process is an absolutely essential necessity within 21st century organizing, to hold corrupt and abusive members accountable as well as to function as the means in which interpersonal conflicts that emerge within formations, whether organic or *instigated*, are able to be resolved. I cannot stress this enough, comrades need to try to create one within your org, or work towards building the capacity to have one as soon as one can. Political education about trauma and reactionary abusive practices must be spread far and wide for mass literacy, as it is an essential part of the interpersonal interaction with comrades, with workers, and recognizing who are our enemies when engaging with the local political landscape.
No.1072668
>>1072667>AnonHis name is Sage, says so right there above the post. He's got a password to protect the username and everything.
>or stop being an armchair criticWriting bullshit is revolutionary activity, but calling out bullshit is being an "armchair critic"? lol
No.1072671
>>1072668>His name is Sage, says so right there above the postI don't care. Address his ideas.
>calling out bullshitIdc about your beef with them. Address the ideas in their post or stop shitting up the thread.
No.1072678
>>1072671>Idcsounds like it
you're such a loser lmaoo
No.1072686
>>1072671>Address the ideas <prove a negative tierWhat ideas? He hasn't said anything, and what he has said is so colossally stupid that it cannot be responded to within the post character limit.
>act so as that your actions are not detectable. Your ideas not known. Your leadership not known.>act so as that your actions are not detectableThen you haven't fucking done anything, have you?
>Your ideas are not known.That's not a communist party, that's a cult.
>Leadership is not known. LOL
> 2 the relationship of a hidden communist party to these organisations""""""""hidden communist party""""""" this is so fucking retarded that I don't know how to even respond. What's the point of a communist party if it's hidden. Sage doesn't even know what communism is LMAO.
>how can there be democracy within a hidden paty? Democracy of which the proletariat have a say? Not possible. hahahahah
>Though, if the relationship of the party agents<"party agents must also be ninjas" - Sage, probably >is simply to be within the mass movements, pushing them forward, and collecting the perspectives of proletarians within them, Ah ok, they "simply be" in movements, but then also "push" movements forward, just like that. >Collecting perspectives of proletarians within them
"Hello sir, may I have your opinions? I am an agent of the party" Or wait, people mustn't know they are talking to the agents, right?
>the party leadership can begin to become informed of the wants and needs of the masses and answer to them.Even in his "ideal" formulation he still has to have the "party leadership" in an ivory tower, completely removed from the masses, waiting on "agents" to bring them "proletarian perspectives" so they can "answer to them" like gods.
YWNBAC. get fucked Sage.
No.1072691
Someone's DEFINITELY mad
No.1072693
>>1072686>I won't address the post>addresses itlmao loser
No.1072698
>>1072691>gets rekt>ur mad! ur mad!>>1072693I addressed a few select parts, not the whole post. Are you defending him because you thought his ideas were good and now you're embarrassed? Don't be, just learn from it and move on.
No.1072702
>>1072698No one's defending him. I'm saying I wouldn't work with either of you cause you're undisciplined at the least.
No.1072706
>>1072702>I'm saying I wouldn't work with either of youok, and? what does that have to do with anything?
No.1072710
>>1072706ok, I am saying you're correct but the right course of action is to ignore those sort of comments.
No.1072754
Kek, seethe and cope lord doesn’t know how the bolshevik party came into being lmao. Motivation to make big again soon.
No.1073736
>>1072678Not an argument.
>>1072686Even though your "arguments" are in bad faith, and some can barely be called arguments anyways, they are better than randomly sperging out over someone's ideas in a post because of a trip. Good improvement anon. Your points regarding commie leadership potentially being isolated from the masses in exchange for security is a good one.
No.1073738
>>1072377To continue, I will first address the type of organising that must be conducted on the mass level, before linking this into the activities that must be conducted by the clandestine party.
To begin, in lieu of an all out militarised structure, such as in Cuba, it must be established that mass organisations of various types have historically been the vehicle by which revolutionary politics have otherwise been conducted. In many other instances, the mass organisations have ended up forming the militarised structures. Even in Cuba, the work of the Guerrilla core was to create a mass Guerrilla front. For the purposes of this section however, we will assume we are talking about non military responses to capitalism.
As is stated above, the proletariat have 2 advantages over the bourgeoise, their numerical superiority, and their position within the chain of production, which is essential, compared to the bourgeoise position, which is superfluous.
As stated above also, the contradiction within these advantages is that, due the number and variety of proletarians, very often it is difficult to get them to act as one, in favour of their class interest. Very often, identity struggles, the limiting factors of an economy and this resource allocation, as well as perceptions of differences in productive position can lead to differences in aims between sections of the proletariat.
Further, the proletariat have been the subject of entrenched bourgeoise ideological harassment for hundreds of years. Thus, many of them do not believe the socialist struggle to be correct, and of those that do, although they believe it correct, many believe in it cannot be won. Of those that do believe it is correct and can be won, many lack the skills to realize victory.
The purpose of mass organisations then, is to rectify these problems, to unify the working class into decision making bodies, that is, to organise them. A truism, so, in order to be unified decision making bodies, they must develop protocols for assessing issues, when to take action, how to take action, as well as meta protocols for the longevity of the union itself.
Once protocols have been developed, they can then act decisively in the resistance to their conditions, that is, to mobilise them.
What many groups or parties get wrong, is in thinking that mobilisation comes before organisation, or is an end in itself. In fact, mobilisation is effectively useless, if it cannot be purposeful, directly so, tactical, in that the state of play is deeply considered in order to fulfil the purpose, and sustainable, so that the strategy can have the longevity it needs. It is easy to mobilise hundreds for a march to the town centre. It is all together a different task, to mobilise 100 people, to tactically advantageous positions, over and over again until victory.
A mass organisation then, a union, or a mutual aid outfit, has to form itself in such a way that all of these criteria can be met.
Chiefly, to be a unifying force, the organisation must focus on issues that are widely felt, and present a viable solution to the problem, as well as the means to defeat it.
Only with these features can an organisation hope win over people who are beaten down, distrustful, and have heard it all before.
In order to do this, the chief focus of any organisation, should be in the first instance to understand which issues affect the people within its remit, and how they can be solved.
The people generally best placed to talk about their own issues, are those effected by the issue, Therefore, the organisation must be in direct contact with these people, and crucially, must not only include them in the process of formulating actions, but they must be able to take a leading role in it.
The people will largely only trust a body they are not forced to join, if they feel they have some control over it. Further, if they do have some level of control, they are far more likely to engage with it, to put time and effort into it.
Therefore, it is not with some lofty liberal idea of "DEMOCRACY" that we go about including the working class in the decisions which effect them, but of a material need. If your mass organisation has no followers, it is not mass and with nobody to organise, disorganised therefore. Easy to organise a bare square of concrete.
The evidence is written all over the labour movement, the more disconnected the union becomes from its membership, the less engagement they have, the worse it fairs, and the susceptible it becomes to elite capture.
Baring this in mind however, is again the contradiction in organising, the contradiction on the contradiction, for, while the proletariat must feel ownership, they must also in fact be organised. Equally to having no members meaning you have no organisation, if those members never act in a unified way, neither can they be said to be within an organisation.
Further, some of the proletariat are more engaged in the struggle for whatever reason, and are more willing to expend time and effort organising the masses. Therefore, the union itself will have leadership, and must have leadership.
Indeed, a large amount of union literature focuses on the idea of developing leadership. Developing leadership again requires the potential leader to feel they are in control or at least have an influence on what is going on.
The leader must feel this to the extent that they are willing to bring people along with them.
Indeed, we may think of a large part of the process of organising as developing the consciousness of promising individuals, so that they too can in turn develop consciousness.
The message here is again the same, in order to develop consciousness, it is not enough to be in the union, but they must also struggle with the union and learn from it. In order that they will do this, again, they must have a stake in the decision making process.
A large part of developing organisational consciousness is passing down skills. Being part of an organisation and influential within it requires skills, how do we set up a discussion which includes as broad a perspective as possible, while keeping structure to that discussion, and from that discussion drawing tangible conclusions to act upon? Such facilitation is a skill. There are innumerable skills required to organise. Not least either , charm, tact, the ability be compromising and self critical, you must be a good communicator. That is leaving aside astute tactical awareness, etc.
The outfit must be member lead.
When it comes to deciding upon actions, those actions we must take into account:
what is the goal of the specific action? How will this action help to achieve our goal ?Can the action feasibly do this? Who holds the power in the situation, how do they wield it? Who are their allies, who are our allies? What further action can be taken in the future towards our goal if this action is unsuccessful? Do we have the resources to conduct this action? How will this action affect the broader organisation?
In the answering of these questions, the fledgling organisation will no doubt find that its goal is extremely broad, the action unlikely to achieve the goal, all the power in the enemies hands, resources are limited, and allies thin on the ground.
The goal then, must broken down, stage by stage into smaller, more achievable goals, which in turn will grow organisational capacity, to be able to complete larger goals.
It is necessary to do this because the workers must see that they are winning. If you can achieve small victories, people will start listening to you, once they do, they become engaged, once they are engaged, your resources have grown.
By all means, if by chance you genuinely feel you can make a big win with a decisive action, you should go for it, however, rarely for a small organisation is this the case.
You must be prepared to start small. The absolute key though, is to start small, with a clear and well laid out plan through which this small action will grow the organisation.
It is also imperative again, I say for the 10th time, to give people influence and control over the endeavour, but it must be matched with above. To develop a leader, or even an engaged member, it will often have to be coaxed out of them. As you incrementally develop the organisation, the organised must develop with it.
No.1073739
>>1073738This section isn't done but I've been here for like half an hour so I'll continue later
No.1075183
>>1075182no sexual relations
No.1075556
>>1075182Party members should be briefed on trauma and abuse literacy as part of political education and/or onboarding to supplement a more general code of conduct that is established as the baseline decorum between each other.
This code of conduct should encourage solidarity, respect of boundaries, and assumption of good faith with grievances taken to the accountability process.
>>1075183Retarded. Will you prevent families from joining the party? There should systems of accountability along with mass abuse and trauma literacy for people to learn how to respect boundaries. Simple as.
No.1075569
>>1075556churches have 'systems of accountability' that don't stop pastors buggering the children.
No.1075694
>>1075569no, just wrong, the problem is they literally don't have systems of accountability and instead their crimes are covered up by others, even sometimes when it's taken to court the church will back them, and the communities will shame kids for speaking out against the men of god
people pretending to have something to seem more trustworthy does not give the lesson that that thing they pretend to have is always doomed to fail. Not saying this as a snappy critique, but it's smth i've had to learn after falling for that premise (and becoming an anarchist). Often ppl in power will just lie about what they do. It doesn't make the shit they lie about any worse, it just means u gotta look out for liars too.
No.1076457
Do workers organize for collective bargaining/demands at their workplaces, if not, why?
No.1077301
>>1075565Based revcel chad
No.1079254
>>1077301*Unbased cult incel
Lenin was a sex haver and was based. Folks just don't want to deal with the hard work of actually building resilient orgs so you guys ban stuff like anti-social, fringe weirdos. I for one, will follow the footsteps of great socialist sex havers like Marx, Engels, Kollantai, Luxemburg, and many more. Sex is fine. It is the social dynamics surrounding it in leftist interpersonal relationships that need change to make organizations stronger.
No.1079610
>>1076457>workerswho, exactly? People ITT or in general?
No.1080226
>>1079610At factories, mines, medical personal and so on where workers work close.
Pic - why not?
I've asked this question may be a year ago and curious if something changed.
No.1080649
>>1080226>Pic - why not?While it's a good idea and I like it, I'm gonna be the devil's advocate here.
Why not?
Because we don't have 2x trained people for every single position. It would take 10-20 years to transition to such a system because you'd have to recruit and train more people, which gets harder for professions that require a lot of schooling and training.
It'd also be a logistical nightmare, because now you have twice as many people to move, feed, house, etc. Cities would have to double in size, where are these people going to come from?
Thinking about it, I guess in the beginning of the transition most jobs would be in the transition itself, in construction, administration, logistics, manufacturing, feeding. You'd need armies of workers, which is based when thinking about it. It'd be a multi-decade project.
The implications of the undertaking is that it would be abandonment of the countryside and rural villages. Farms and stuff like that would remain, but nobody would live there. If the jobs double, the other people have to move from the villages to the cities. It'd be the complete urbanisation and proletarisation of a country.
No.1080695
>>1080649I see
>>1080226 more as a cover for the inevitable result that we just don't need that many people working at all.
It's like a stop-gap until enough consciousness is achieved and people go "Hol up, why does this job even exist?" and instead of trying to mutate it it just withers away.
Basically people have internalised work for the sake of work, rather than work for the needs of their community.
No.1080810
>>1080649imma be real
i have no clue where you get most of this from so i'm just not gonna touch it
But seeing as per 2002 about 50% of US labor is literally producing nothing of value, actively destroying value, or just shuffling money around - there's basically no need for all the shit ur talking about. How long does it take to train someone, not talking about education but on the job training? A week to 6 months. Halve the hours, get rid of the bullshit literally no use value creating jobs (often just scams and protection rackets btw), immediately move those ppl who are mostly already concentrated in cities into productive jobs near where they already are, and just train them up. Sure there are lots of jobs that need actual education, and that'd take a while to get ppl educated up, so you're right there but if it takes 2 years to have it 80% down, 4 years to be like 90% down, and 8 years to have all productive jobs halved in hours - great.
But honestly it's maybe better as a slogan because if working class power could push through such a wild demand/restructuring of the economy, then we'd have the power to stop paying in wages at all. But as a transitional measure this is absolutely necessary, as one of the early actions taken under the DotP.
What i'd love to see is an accounting of what we'd save if production was planned based on need rather than market fads and guesswork since so much shit is just destroyed when no one buys it or the style changes or no one has money to buy it, and adding that with the amount of real use values capitalists use up or make unavailable (afaik their capital can be disregarded since if theyre not using it for their consumption, then it's being used to direct production and in an oblique way is directing the consumption (negatively) of the workers exploited to make the profit and so it can basically poof into thin air and nothing is lost to the accounting of real production) - and then the rest is pretty accounted for i think in the simplistic accountings of unproductive labor that people have done, since withholding capital and keeping consumption from happening and using capital to poorly direct production are bundled up in unproductive labor already… i think. If anyone can sort of "check my math" there or knows about studies looking at the FULL costs of capitalism on society, i'd love to hear it. Cause while the US could cut labor in half and both produce and consume the same amount in a vacuum (or like, international stasis), equalizing consumption and productivity and labor internationally to me is just a wild card since idk how much it'd negate the ability to lower hours and keep consumption up.
Any book or research paper recs?
No.1125355
>>1124019Are you asking what their day to day consists of, or what they have accomplished?
No.1125357
>>1124019go to meetings, talk about stuff. have speakers talk about things. go to protests for various lost causes. possibly sell newspapers or hand out flyers
No.1125661
>>1107498>the cell is falling apartSorry to hear the foko-bro :(
But such is the nature of ecological or organic style structures.
Go solo for a bit, just listen and watch until you feel more energised again.
No.1147421
I'm seeing posters in the main street for at least two different orgs. Much better than commercial garbage.
No.1154868
>>1154542There's a snake in your
group, missed rhyming opportunity
No.1189477
bump because good trhtread that needs 2be scene
No.1193598
>>1124019Responding as per the request of
>>1193066So it's important to keep in mind that a lot of the Left in the U.S. is fractured, isolated, and recovering from both the fall of the USSR and decades of red-baiting. So, a lot of parties and orgs are just getting back off their feet. I think Kaiserreich for HoI IV has unironically turned some gamers into Wobblies (hey, if they're socialists I don't fucking care what does it) and I believe the FRSO is recovering after a brief bit of state-sponsored terror.
So I can mostly only speak about the CPUSA.
For one,
most activity seems to be based around clubs. State and local ones. In SoCal there's a bulletin we use to coordinate things and keep us aware of what's going on in a given district; labor struggles, meetings, so on.
On a smaller scale, districts tend to form clubs. Basically, groups of geographically close comrades cooperate on a given project. Sometimes its public gardens, other times its mutual aid. I know some that distribute clean clothes, blankets, food, and water to the homeless while handing out Party Pamphlets. Sometimes groups of artistically minded people form art collectives and host public galleries based on a theme, like anti-colonial struggles or feminism.
When workers are struggling to unionize (as was the case of the ALU) we try to assist where possible, distributing food and water and pamphlets on the benefits of union organizing. We'll attend protests and poor people's campaigns. Basically, we're there to help the proletariat.
As for election season, sometimes we get involved phone banking for candidates, or even do things like involve ourselves in the Bernie campaign; namely because it gives us a chance to learn from experience what a campaign is actually like, as well as talk to people, forge connections, and maybe even radicalize a few.
>inb4 DEMOCRAT SHILLBack in '08 an older Comrade apparently was phone banking for Obama. One of the numbers he called, I think it was in West Virginia, the guy hears Obama's name and he huffs:
<"Lemme get this straight, do you want it to be the White House or the Black House?!"The Older Comrade responded with:
>"Well would you rather live in the poor house or live alongside the Black House?"Anyways apparently they talked for a while about the importance of economic policy, how it matters more than race, so on.
Maybe it didn't change the guy's view, but it at least gave our Comrade some idea of what to expect. Some argument. Some way to reach out to people.
As it stands, the party's growth has been healthy, its funds are stabilizing. Right now we're trying to branch out into the electoral arena, though that's easier said than done.
If I have some free time, I'll try to talk about practical organizing, putting ideas into reality, so on.
No.1194509
Friendly greetings from the Communist Party of Cuba to the CPUSA; figure it would go here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0drW8pfPO-8 No.1195332
>>1193598>>1194509
>cpusago back to langley, fed
No.1195382
>>1195332I wish I made fed bux.
No.1196226
>>1193598>"Well would you rather live in the poor house or live alongside the Black House?"Too bad he ended up in the poor house anyways because 0bama cared more about bailing out the FIRE sector.
No.1207843
My current school has since last year restricted all students from using the Wi-Fi, in an attempt to cut usage since the DOE refuses to increase the amount of allotted bandwidth. In response, some of the socialist teachers in this school(a blessing) and I came up with the idea of creating a new union to replace the corporate bootlicking one(since obviously student struggle on its own has not produced much aid at all). You might say I shouldn't care since I'm about to be out of this place anyway, but in the meantime(apart from contacting my local IWW chapter) what could be done to assist this drive?
No.1207871
>>1193598>>1194509cocksucker CIA glowie, it's an insult that you call yourself a communist
respectful hate from latin america, FUCK you
No.1207877
>>1207871What's your issue with the CPUSA?
No.1208023
>>1207843>You might say I shouldn't care since I'm about to be out of this place anywayI might not. That would be a silly thing to say! The education system is important.
No.1208274
>>1205724
No.1208275
>>1208274Linking that post from the brazil thread because its really good and on topic
No.1210798
Should I get involved with EWOC? I am unionized and my union is in a comfortable enough position that it is unlikely to see any kind of opposition to leadership. I want to help organize somehow, but I can't do it in my own workplace in any meaningful way.
No.1210831
>>1210798in my experience EWOC is mostly a referral service for directing workers to unions, rather than directly leading organizing. idk if that's changed (left the slack like 9 months ago bc I moved out of the states). their research team is very good and it's a good way to meet other labor organizers, but you might have a better time working with other people in your current union to try to start a drive at another workplace that's related to yours
No.1215373
>>1207843Well, I've sort of improved my view on things. There is always unmanagable contradiction without the mix of the students' movement and the teachers' movement. In a student movement without teachers, we get performative rallies that go nowhere. In a teachers' movement without students, we get reactionary policies that harm the students and some teachers as well, making it harder for them to do their jobs(like the Wi-Fi). I've had quite a few teachers that might scab(my chinese expat history teacher comes to mind, but no hard confirm or deny on that yet), but as long as the comrades advance the MORE line on one point and the SDS line on the other, things should be good.
No.1215374
>>1215373Along with that, I applied to the SDS, but they never responded. Anything I can do to fix that?
No.1215653
>>1215374it's going to be a hard sell for you to get support from outside organizations as part of a student movement, because most organizations correctly recognize that student movements have very high turnover built-in year on year and require high levels of organizational investment (e.g. training people who are completely green) for very little return
you're almost better off trying to get in touch with a cohort of past alumni than trying to get a union or political organization to spend resources on this
go through past yearbooks and look up the political donation lists for everyone you can on opensecrets to generate a set of initial leads and see if you can get outside pressure that way
No.1215751
>>1215653>it's going to be a hard sell for you to get support from outside organizations as part of a student movement, because most organizations correctly recognize that student movements have very high turnover built-in year on year and require high levels of organizational investment (e.g. training people who are completely green) for very little returnfire pussy tho
No.1249414
boooomp (realised I never finished this long posts, I'll do that soon I hope)
No.1256902
i've recently considered joining an org, but it may be for the wrong reasons. my job as it has been has been depressing me more and more, the business is run on toothpicks, workers constantly go in and out, boss is completely out of touch… at this point i'm just going to leave said job and i'm hoping that an org will have some of the answers to get me out of this funk. don't know if i'm making the right choice or not.
No.1257429
>>1249414> I'll do that soon I hopeI hope so too :)
No.1257465
>>1072377> I'm gonna write more posts on this. I'm not sure how long I've rambled nowInstead of doing this, how about reading mao and lenin, they have figured out exactly what you're rambling on about.
No.1257466
>>1257465(Keep in mind though that these orgs formed during times of repression, not during times of being able to operate openly. Lenin wasn't exactly a secretive figure during the uprisings.)
No.1257467
>>1075182Same issue has been brought up again and again, you just need to ensure there are no sex pests in the party. Relationships will arise within parties, and they are not a problem.
No.1257536
>>1195332just because cpusa is keep around as a pet political party for the bourgeoisie to say they allow free speech, does not mean that is the only thing it is. Are we to forget that a mao zedong larper was able to turn the virginia branch into a weird struggle session quasimaoist org or that the louisiana branch is known to make public statements that contradict the silly "eco-socialist," "craft beer lover" who posts cringy vote for hillary pieces on people's world?
No.1265016
>>1257039okay i sent in an application, but i've never done this so i have no idea whether its supposed to be like a job interview or not. if it is i might have come across as unprofessional.
No.1265030
>>1256902I really fell like I'm in the same boat. I spent the last few years in retail hopelessly overqualified, and saw things that I wasn't supposed to, like a disabled man being abused by micky mouse cunt managers and the general worst aspects of humanity encouraged and amplified. I got into marxism by accident;. quit, found a better job. but that's degenerated into the same shitty situation, run by clueless management, lizard brain business owners, where it has gotten to the point I get depressed going in. even on part time.
I work in a porky store serving porkies , the upper class live on a permanent cruise ship with us as their entertainers. I get palpitations of rage just thinking about it. and urges the next time I hear boomer platitudes about 'sucking it up' or 'pulling up your bootstraps' to strangle the fucks to death with a pillow.
at least if I joined an org I fell like I'd have an outlet, even if it's moving boxes and shuffling papers.
No.1265353
>>1265016You're joining a working class organisation. Bourgoies expectations and cultural norms of you groveling before superiors labeled as "professionalism" are not a think.
Don't worry, it will be much more like meeting old friends than going for a job interview.
No.1265363
Are there any trot or orthodox Marxist parties in the US? I'd totally be open to joining that over the clownish ML parties here or whatever CPUSA considers themself.
No.1265377
>>1265363IMT (International Marxist Tendency) is in the US, afaik
No.1265378
>>1265377thanks anon, im checking them out.
No.1265379
>>1265378> For a twenty-hour workweek with no loss in pay and a national minimum wage of $1,000 per week.absolutely joining now, im a single issue Marxist
No.1265410
IMT is like the most expensive reading group that exists
No.1266543
>>1265030You're in a good spot to get more comrades into those positions though, until the whole crew of the ship is communist then you can
No.1301751
>>1301583Starting a reading group and putting up some fliers on some billboards might be a good idea. I havent dealt with something like that before. Ive asked how they establish new cells over here.
Isnt there some larger orgs nationwide or in your state that you would want to join? And then establish a local chapter with their help, rather than do something seperate on your own?
No.1301757
>>1301751I definitely think starting an org chapter would be a longer term goal, but I feel like because I'm not from here and don't know the situation on the ground really that it might be better to start with something a little less intense, to get a read on things I guess and to make some connections. Essentially I want to establish a beachhead for more highly organized stuff down the line.
No.1302316
>>1301583>The most I've found is a left-leaning pro-labor student group on campusJoin them. Start there. Build your connections before starting any groups imo. Involves touching grass though.
>>1301891jej
No.1302394
>>1302316I'm not a student so this seems weird to me. I'm also probably way older than most of them. Though maybe just talking to them could help get me plugged in locally.
No.1302421
Comrade active in student and worker union here
The issue with your party to me is that without any political machine capable on running an election campaing your members will quicly be dissapointed and vote for reformist parties
You sould ally with other orgs, especially with ones that have influence among unionist and the elderly, having ties with student activism means that you guys will always have space to recruit new members ,in the long run you will have the power in any alliance
No.1302430
>>1302394It is slightly weird, but it isn't "omg that guy is a fucking creep" weird. Its just a little out of place. If you email them/ message them on whatever social media, you can simply say "I'm new in town and yours is the only socialist organisation I can find, looking to get involved in a reading group or something" which is.. the truth.. I imagine they would probably be at least somewhat helpful. Messaging through some form of social media is better than an email I think, makes it seem less formal.
They may think you are a cop also, so try and not come across like a cop
No.1302514
>>1302430I follow them on
instagram but my pfp is pic related. Maybe I should change it before I message them…
No.1302707
Anyone know if there is some party that has their cadre training program available for me to look at?
No.1303118
>>1302514Nah half of them will probably be similar
>>1302707Lmao. Oh dude. If only you knew how bad things really were
No.1303131
What makes an org good? Like what should I look for when joining an org, is it really just a go and see if you vibe type of situation, or are the concrete hallmarks of good groups to join?
For reference i live near a major US city in a "liberal" state, and just based on cursory google searches there are tons of groups with offices, so for me I just want to make sure I join an actual good org and not a cult or glowfront.
I'm actually going to something this weekend that is hosted by my local socdem chapter though I don't have much hope since its actually closer than going into the city I want to give it a go
No.1303140
>>1303131>What makes an org 👻good👻?Why are you joining it?
Without knowing that first, we can't truly answer the question for you.
No.1303143
>>917017NTA but I'm so used to that acronym being SAlt (Socialist Alternative, annoying culty trots)
No.1303149
>>1303140>Why are you joining it?Honestly because I need to touch grass but I also wanna talk about dismantling capitalism
No.1303151
>>1303149Alright, so I'm assuming that means the
primary goal is to build a real-life social group. You want to find like-minded people and be engaged in the/a socialist community.
That opens it up a bit, if you can find (for example) reading groups or socialist/anarchist libraries (my city has at least one so its a possibility) those may be also on the list to try if for whatever reason the orgs don't work out.
No.1303380
>>1303131Does it (also) engage in things that aren't:
>having a stand with flyers in a park>showing up to a demonstration once in a while>selling newspapers (which no org should actually still do these days imho)>posturing online about how they are the one and only true orgWhile also not being socdem? Then it might be worthwhile.
>>1303151My org is pursuing a long term strategic goal of creating working class social circles and communities around the party through which to recruit new members. Such a social circle would be a great place to start with touching grass and talking about dismantling capitalism. Long term goal, though we have established a (small for now) recreational socialist sport group (hikes and such) which undertakes activaties sometimes and through which we did gain some members as described.
No.1303386
>>1301751I asked around, and it seems like they used our national orgs social media platform, as well as pasting posters on walls, they held starting events for a new chapter in several cities where no chapters existed before. From 4 attempts, one succeeded because an existing socialist friend group showed up.
So a reading group might not be a bad idea.
You americans really need to start working on consolidating your orgs though. Within our country theres only 2 serious revolutionary socialist orgs, us (mostly marxist but slightly more broad) and the ML party (smaller and just as much on its ass as the rest of us, doesnt really seem to undertake much in terms of growth). The other left wing parties are either minute tiny cults you cant even find online or the national identity politics party (which has marxists in its ranks but isnt explicitly anti capitalist)
No.1310295
Here is an article (Aug 22) from a campus in The University of Melbourne, Australia,
"one of the country's largest breeding grounds for leftist thought", about the most
hated group on campus,
Socialist Alternative (the core of Victorian Socialists).
It uses surveyed responses, overwhelmingly from people who are highly aligned with SAlt's stated purpose, to understand why
"94% of students who knew enough about SocAlt to answer this question said they would never consider being involved with the group." I believe this is useful as a tool to understand how
not to do promotion, and what things your potential recruits are being turned off by.
https://farragomagazine.com/news/article/farrago/Why-the-Left-Sucks-An-Inquiry-into-Campuss-Most-Hated-Political-Group/Firefox's reader says it's a 15 min read so I'll sum up my highlights:
>71% of people who have interacted with SocAlt made direct reference to disliking their promotion and recruitment tactics. Of this same group, only 14% referred to a dislike for SocAlt's ideology. People don't even inherently dislike them because of their politics! To quote one student, "Whilst I agree with [their] ideas, I personally do not feel like accosting people outside the Baillieu Library."
>[survey response] "It's all virtue signalling. Wanting to be a part of a leftist organisation for me would be one that actually provides mutual aid and does something for other people instead of getting angry at people who don't want to fork out $65 to go to a 'Marxism' conference… they just seem to go against everything leftists actually want by prioritising this intellectual, academic promotion of ideology and theory instead of going out and helping people."
>As we're all cripplingly aware, we're working on a very strict time frame with the impending climate crisis. The time for moral purity is long gone. [] We need to stop being so rigidly moralistic and get strategic. I'm not asking you to change your views, SocAlt; I'm asking you to play nicely with the others. You don't even have to promise not to talk about them behind their backs (please, just don't mention communism at the climate strike again). In times of crisis, triage is necessary, and when all is said and done, I'm sure you would agree that the mobilisation of people away from the Right takes priority over your right to free speech and purist political expression.
>A couple of months ago, I was having coffee with a friend involved with left-wing StuPol, and they told me that some of their other StuPol friends were discussing organising a group outing to a shooting range to prepare for the revolution. >[] But, if we can't even mobilise people enough to change the date [note: campaign to change the Australia Day holiday away from the landing of the first English colonization fleet], do you really think a proletariat revolution is on the cards? The working class are not about to take their ploughshares and turn them into swords once more! A 2016 study found that in recent years, the trend in Right-wing populism has actualised into working class people increasingly voting for Right-wing candidates. These are the people you need, the people you're trying to help, and they're not even on your side. It's time to reassess.<> [DISCUSSION TOPIC] [] reform and revolution [] are not mutually exclusive. You can be a revolutionary and support reform. We can debate until the cows come home whether reform will ever be as good as starting from scratch, but you can't possibly disagree that a social democracy in which everybody has equal and free access to high-quality healthcare and education isn't undoubtedly better than our current flavour of neoliberal capitalism. Additionally, to argue that reform prevents revolution is illogical and dangerous.>Reform can be revolutionary, and it is also far more palatable to the masses, which makes it more likely to happen. 21% of UniMelb students who agree with your ideas–but don't want anything to do with you–chalk it up to your inability to consider an alternate solution to revolution. By turning them away, you're closing yourself off to a lot of future comrades, comrades No.1310334
>>1310295>(please, just don't mention communism at the climate strike again)Yeah let's not talk about any solution to the problem!…
No.1310470
>>1310295>71% of people who have interacted with SocAlt made direct reference to disliking their promotion and recruitment tacticsDude this is how right wing student unionist work in my country , you cast a large net and approach random students directly acting like their freind ,promising help with classes etc , 70% of people will realize you dont really care about them just their votes and will find you disgusting but the 20% thats retarded enough will still vote you
And since the more political aproach leftist tend to use only works with people who are already intrested in mass action you end up with :
A right winger talks to 100 people the 3/4 will be annoyed by him but the 1/4 will like him
A leftist talks to 20 people the 3/4 will like him buuuuuuuut the 1/4 of 100>3/4 of 20
No.1310471
>>1310470Although they are a lot of people who have eaten up neoliberal propaganda and think campuses should be without political activism at all
No.1310472
>>1310295>TFW 'playing nice' means not mentioning communism around people.fug i hate libs.
No.1310522
>>1310472It is much more than that
No.1310808
Had a vote in my Communist Party chapter on not supporting NATO. The atmosphere was electric. All fifteen of us voted unanimously that we are against NATO. After we had some beers, talked about Christmas plans and then we went home.
Can't wait for next week's meeting. Capitalism's days are numbered. I can feel it.
No.1310882
>>1310808That's nice, anon. I'm happy for you.
Here we raised funds for our Christmas Without Hunger campaign where we bought food and supplies for families from occupations that didn't have enough money. Then, we coordinated a protest inside supermarkets in all major cities of the country to ask for donations for those in need. We got verbally abused by some lumpens but we got what we wanted rather peacefully for most cities.
No.1310886
>>1310882Is this a double reverse troll?
No.1310926
>>1310334>>1310472>HMM LOOK A BUNCH OF EVERYDAY LIBERALS. LET'S UNNECESSARILY BRING UP A RADICAL IDEOLOGY THEY ASSOCIATE WITH GENOCIDEIt's called rhetoric, and it's
fundamental to the success of our society given our current condition.
>b-but communism goodliterally
doesnt
matter
If you absolutely must, mention socialism. It's actually palatable to the people they're aiming to recruit. Purist masturbation has no place in contemporary praxis.
Why do we have to explain this to you? It's basic human empathy.
No.1310942
>>1310926 [cont]
Do you think the fascism pipeline would work if they started with "We're nazis, sieg heil! Jews need to be wiped from the country to save our economy." ?
You need to realize that in most countries, communism sounds like that to people. Stalin, purges, planned famine, blah, blah.
And no, telling people it's not true isn't how you teach them it's not true. They're straight-up unable to even consider that yet. You'll sound like a holocaust denialist.
No, they introduce those elements later, once their audience is receptive.
Then you can talk about controversial things like communist movements.
Now, you can talk about communist
ideas early on, but if a lib sees a hammer and sickle or other obvious symbols, you might as well have shown them a swastika.
At events trying to introduce people to support leftist ideas, you are actively fucking socialism over by being a tactless purist. And for what benefit?
No.1310951
>>1310808BASED
NATO WILL FALL IN 30 DAYS
No.1310955
>>1310472>>TFW 'playing nice' meansnot being a purist splitter trot and collaborating with other socialists
No.1310972
>>1310470That article situation is more like:
>org shouts at 250 people and of the ones who actually listened, 94% said they they would never consider being involved with themWhich is less than both those scenarios.
>btw 80% would have liked them if they weren't cuntsThis org isn't going to get that 20%. They aren't making friends and doing favors, they're just actively revolting people. They can't even get 6% of people who are predisposed politically to like them.
No.1310976
>>1310942No anon this is incorrect. Just pretending not to be a communisst is never going to work. Walk like a lib, talk like a lib, you will become a lib.
No.1311098
>>1310942>Do you think the fascism pipeline would work if they started with "We're nazis, sieg heil! Jews need to be wiped from the country to save our economy." ?Because Nazis have a genocidal program that they have to ease people into. Communists have nothing to hide.
No.1311345
>>1310972>Whilst I agree with [their] ideas, I personally do not feel like accosting people outside the Baillieu Library."This is a myth though ,in any student election the groups that just put up posters and dont "accost" people get fewer votes than the ones who do , people who find student organzing annoying tend to be apolitical
>Inb4 but but they are saying they agree with such and suchIts doesnt matter what take you hold in your head if you arent actually active in politics you are apolitical
No.1311352
>>1311345Yea, crying about 'acosting people' just seems like concern trolling by a rightoid or a lib about doing street outreach and such tbh. I woud be heavily surprised if there was more to 'acosting' than selling a newspaper outside or telling people information/inviting them to a meeting.
No.1313589
>>1310926>>1310942Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.
People like you are the reason the climate movement is governed by liberal NGOs.
No.1313608
>>1310942>the fascism pipelineIt's another Hitler particle irradiation theory episode
No.1313801
>>1310976That's a really dumb thing to say, nazi.
>>1311098In most Western countries, the mere concept of communism is something people need to be eased into.They were a national enemy of the culture capital of the world and all the Western governments. The education system and the vast majority of their all media that mentions them depicts communism as failed, inhuman dictatorships.
I am not exaggerating by bringing up comparisons to fascism. I know we aren't like them at all.
It literally doesn't matter to most people. Your idea of communism (what we are aiming for) directly contradicts the typical Westerner's current understanding of communism (cherry-picked failures plus complete lies). They see communism as some ultra-totalitarian grey failed starving dystopia where you can't even criticize the government, bent on world domination. Stalin ate all the grain and drank all the rain. Mao killed 100 million because he didn't agree with them. Everyone has the same haircut in North Korea. The Stasi were the Gestapo, East Germany was East Berlin and they lost the fair-and-square test of east vs. west. They have accepted this (consciously or not) and it's their understanding of 'communism' however well you put lipstick on it. That amount of delusion takes more than a speech to unlearn.
That's why pipelines exist.
You don't jump from "letting companies do anything they want is bad" straight to "socialism is the way forward, regardless of historical mistakes" in a week. Until they are eased in, the mere word 'communism' turns them away the same way a stranger endorsing Qanon would turn you away from
really considering what they say. Yes, I am not exaggerating. That repulsive.
We are Leftist Politically Incorrect. Enjoy our struggle, comrades.
No.1313809
>>1313589why yes it's tactful communists' fault and not the fact that liberalism receives large amounts of capital, is firmly within the overton window of liberal democracy, and is supported by national liberal media
Do you honestly think we had a chance at jumping from within the Cold War straight to communists openly leading the popular climate movement?
No.1313827
>>1311352>I woud be heavily surprised if there was more to 'acosting' than selling a newspaper outside or telling people information/inviting them to a meeting.Article quotes a survey response:
>"Once my toenail came off and I was on my way to uni health services, they still tried to stop me going"Attempting to stop someone from leaving a conversation to seek medical attention is generally considered socially unacceptable.
I don't know if you're mistaking the article for talking about leftist orgs in general (it clearly isn't).
Even the attached screencap in that post shows /auspol/ saying they hate SAlt. Even their fellow trots at the WSWS (SEP) repeatedly call this org the "pseudo-left" [picrel].
Some lib YouTuber got stalked by them after getting banned from their conference, despite the two attendees he was interviewing insisting he wasn't harassing anyone.
Furthermore, they are not the only revolutionary Marxist socialist organization on the campus the article was written from. Solidarity's student club don't get any visible hatred, certainly not near this scale.
It's fair to have benefit of the doubt in mind when liberals complain about political groups. Of course.
SAlt aren't that. They are the Mormons of Trotskyism, but with a more plastic smile and more prone to rage.
No.1314002
>>1313827Now i am not saying weirdo neotrots arent a thing but i am of the opinion that we shouldnt generalize political orgs even when we disagree
In my country the KKE youth is often criticized for being low autism score idiots with a culty devotion to protecting their parties honour, they are ,i have gotten to even physical altercasion with KNE members but when an apolitical student criticizes them i point out how right wing careerist have a way less critical with their party since they hope to earn money off politics
No.1314052
I've been in a party for a couple years now and honestly I don't think we've accomplished anything.
Meetings, giving out flyers, going to protests… it's always the same circle of people. I don't feel like our cause is getting more popular, all the contrary. I try not to be defeatist but it can feel quite pointless.
No.1314057
>>1314052Which country are you from? If there hasn't been any progress, you need to review your tactics with your org or join another one.
No.1336772
>>1314052This is the normal state of social metabolism. Historically significant events are the exception, not the rule. A single spark can start a prairie fire, but only during a drought. Your organization is subordinate to History. Discard the capitalist short-term, grow-or-die imperative. It is ok to have slow periods. The CPC existed for 25+ years in extremely revolutionary conditions before it managed to win over and lead the whole Chinese proletariat.
I strongly recommend reading the FRSO document on the mass line as well, even if you disagree with the organization's capitalist-roader line.
https://frso.org/main-documents/some-points-on-the-mass-line/ No.1337826
>>1336772That is fine, but the party should be building to clearly defined goals. If it is not doing this and succeeding, then it is not building to be robust when the revolutionary moment comes
No.1338036
A fellow comrade yelled at me today because I gave a local eshay two toasties and a sanga instead of one of each :,(
No.1338043
>>1338036The fuck do these words mean
No.1358498
>>1338036>>1338043well, eshays (adlay) is pig latin for 'session' but it's been since bastardized by derros to mean young bogan yobbo dickheads.
your mate handed out the right number of sausage sandwiches to this mad lad but one too many grilled cheese sandwiches! so some stingy scrub got salty and had a whinge. we socialists can't be too generous and hand out too many slices of bread oath.
No.1358506
>>1302430It's not slightly weird, it actually is. Judging from his pfp the guy probably doesn't know how to navigate a social circle well.
What he could do is ask the staff if there's an org better suited for him around these parts.
No.1358524
>>1303131It's a bit of both and the two are interconnected. Groups who are laidback won't do much, and groups who try to get shit done often have one or two careerist elements in them making the whole thing very drama prone.
If you're just trying to meet up with people it's better you join the first category and avoid the second. Also for the love of God please don't fucking try to flirt with the only girl the group. They already assume everyone who's saying hi is trying to fuck them, because they tried. And I don't care that one actually succeeded. Don't even try to be flirty.
When I used to go threre I always acted like I had a job to do. I befriended people individually, and steered clear of the org's treasurer and leader (careerists who ended up joining our country far left party), unless they basically demanded too much of us in which case i usually was the first one to voice my issues. I can understand that some people want to prop themselves up politically using the org, but you're not putting me to work so you can appropriate our performances so you can become a regional coordinator. In other words, lead by example.
The treasurer on the other hand was actually a very savvy guy who had a spreadsheet with municipal elections across our turf, and was having fun trying to study correlations between certain kind of political actions and election results. He'd also do it for practices uncommon in our country, such as phoning people, knocking on doors and not just flying. That guy was bretty good, and i'm sure he's doing well in whatever party he joined.
I usually avoided my own college student union because these were just filled with virtue signalling drama queens. One of them was my ex-gf's friend and she blatantly admitted that most of the cancelling and shit she did was a cry for attention.
No.1366959
>>1071028>>1071028I can't speak to CPUSA or FRSO but I can tell you right now that you have the wrong impression of PSL. PSL does not "cater" to activists. The fact of the matter is that PSL understands that the duty of communists is to join with the people in their struggles and to fight alongside them. If your impression is informed by the question as to why we aren't doing a guerilla war, you must understand that the actions we take are in concert with an analysis of the immediate material conditions. "Maoists" in this country are not really followers of Mao. Mao was a Marxist-Leninist who made major contributions. But PSL is not "maoist" because the label historically refers to whose line you adopted in reaction to the Sino-Soviet split, China's or USSR's. PSL considers the Sino Soviet split to have been a mistake. Although PSL's founding members were from Worker's World Party, and even though they were influenced by Sam Marcy, and even though they have a common history with Trotskyism, they are not "Anti-Stalinists" or Trotskyists. PSL is not concerned with all the debates about whether Stalin was right, or whether Trotsky was right, or whether Mao was right. These debates are useless and are the true clown shits.
No.1366963
>>1008873>>1008873>Case in point: we're already starting to see a string of minor sex scandals in ML parties, one in the PSL last yearish and apparently one going on in the Young Communist League right now. why are you doing fed shit? the only "accusation" that i have been able to find is a blog post written by an anonymous maoist, who does not even appear to be a part of an organization. i am equally suspicious of your claim about young communist league. you have to get a grip and understand that the feds are professional counterrevolutionaries and COINTELPRO is their game. i guarantee that if a democratic centralist group were to actually have to deal with a sex pest, they would immediately remove that person.
No.1367817
Hi everyone!
I am working with the Northeastern U union effort. And the University has started its anti-union campaign. The university created the email address gradunioninfo {at} northeastern {dot} edu for students to use to receive anti-union talking points that disregard our collective right to bargain for better working conditions. It would be very helpful if you sent emails to the email address to make it useless for spreading anti-union talking points. Please be polite, and nondescript. If you use my example try and change words or use misspellings to disable any filtering they try and do.
Here is an example:
to: gradunioninfo {at} northeastern {dot} edu Subject: A quick union question
Hey!
Why are you running an anti-union campaign?
Thanks, {an annoyed citizen}
No.1367825
>>1367817Sign it up to all the spam services in existence as well as all the accounts you can from all services. Be sure to click "resend email".
No.1367846
>>1367566Praise Milley, National Salvation Council soon.
No.1373549
>>1366959BASEDBASEDBASEDBASEDBASED
No.1374518
>>1373477Keep it up comrade!
No.1415453
Just saving this thread from digital oblivion…
No.1415457
>>1373477Nice work, but be careful because apparently stickers/posters stuck with razor blades attached is an old Nazi trick
No.1415909
>>1415457That and eggshell fuckers
No.1417173
>>1415457That's why you put your own sticker over them
No.1417416
>>1415457razor blades are steel right? magnets should help detect them
No.1417559
>>1415457Good point. This one was just an amateur job saying 'gommies killed 100 goriilian read a book' on some tape.
>>1415909Explain, is it just sharp and gets under your fingernails, or something else?
No.1417609
>>1417559>Explain, is it just sharp and gets under your fingernails, or something else?They're very hard to peel off because they're so thing and really stick in crevices.
When you finally do, they're made in such a way that only tiny bits come off at a time.
Further, they're a sort of soft-matte to slight-gloss finish which makes drawing over them difficult as nothing really takes, whether ink from a mop or just permanent pen.
The only saving grace is that they're about $14 per tiny sticker, so they're pretty uncommon except in high traffic or points of interest areas.
No.1417623
>>1417609Sounds super complicated for something you can do by just cutting the sticker a few times after you place it. It makes it so you can't just peel the sticker off in one piece as well.
No.1419030
>>1417623They're pre-cut in that sense, so it's just stick, rub, and go.
No.1419061
>>1419030I recently checked out IGD's guide to wheatpasting where they have a recount at the bottom about a crew plastering posters across a city. In a high-traffic or high-security situation when cops can show up (or citizens can get suspicious), you don't want to be wasting time cutting up a poster/sticker on the spot.
https://itsgoingdown.org/field-guide-wheatpasting-everything-need-know-blanket-world-posters/ [at the bottom]
pic unrel, just looking for an excuse to post
No.1419237
>>1419061>WheatpastingBuying some wallpaper glue costs litterally next to nothing and works way better.
No.1419817
>>1072238I had the exact same experience as you comrade. I felt my local unit wasn't able to express the autonomy needed during the 'Floyd Rebellion' through our own dynamism we got a fair bit done but it was a drop in the bucket compared to what I believe the situation called for. We were a newer formation and really did not get any assistance when it came to building up our "forces". A lot of what came from above was imo out of touch with what workers needed to hear (As close to you can get to endorsing Joe Bidet for president as you can get, fuck that the whole system is illegitimate). I have some great memories of my time and feel I learned a lot from my experience but I think that they need to deossify a bit and reflect on the new world that exists. All said with love, I think the party line on a lot of things is really great and I have a lot of love for the people I met during my brief stint with them a lot of hard working and down to earth communists are in that party
No.1420096
>>1419320>>BuyingWhat, do you cum flour or something? You also buy wheatpaste ingredients. If you're such a retard self sabotager who doesn't want to invest anything into overthrowing capitalism just steal it. The packets fit up your ass, you might try putting it there
No.1438961
well I guess this was already asked in
>>1124019 somewhat, but extra answers would be nice too
No.1438970
>>1438960>I am not an anarchist, but suspect my labour will be more useful in an anarchist movement than a socialist organization. At least they're doing something material.[Citation needed]
>Anyone in an org that actually does something instead of being a bureaucratic waste of time and money?Organise renters unions, act as a nexus to bring together activists around local issues and use our experience and political insights to elevate it to a higher political level and raise the political conscious of the people involved.
No.1438973
>>1438970>[citation needed]lol not gonna sauce you on my local anarchiddies because I don't feel like making Smith's job easy.
But yeah, the local commies are a ghost town, even people in my country's thread agree. If I lived in a different part of the country it might be a better story.
>[the rest]I appreciate it, thank you.
No.1438979
>>1124019The democratic socialists in my area give people free food and condoms
No.1438981
>>1438973try to merge the two
No.1439020
>>1438979Short reply: charity isnt mutual aid
Long reply: You should try to build up networks of working class people that help each other. The role of the party is not to collect money and give homesless people food, nor does it build workers power, because the homeless don't have any power, nor does it train the workers to self organise and improve their lives while increasing class conciousness.
No.1439034
What's the next natural progression from a reading group to? I saw an article by a MLM discussing exactly that but forgot to save it.
No.1439041
>>1439034Try organising some low stakes action stuff like putting up posters or stickers. Get used to coordinating as a group in meetings. Once you're comfortable doing that pick something like trying to organise some student tennants if you're in or around unis if something bad can be found (doing research by talking to people is part of it) or if some law being broken can be found.
I think getting to know the other activists if there are any is important. Show up to protests, etc.
No.1439043
>>1439041(This is from my own limited experience of course)
No.1439713
>>1419817do you have any other org you recommend? Or did you leave them and take a break from parties or activism?
No.1442896
>>1442874They're more based than the Australian groups
No.1443176
>>1438960Yeah and if there's like an ML party around who is actually doing shit, anarchists should help them too. Any org that cares more about collecting dues and having meetings than accepting work from volunteers has their priorities wrong. Unless you're actively engaged in some kind of armed struggle the ideology of an org is often window dressing.
>and no, none of the locals are involved with the unions :( the shitty social dem party beat them to itThat's not an excuse lmao, in fact it's a totally backward approach. All these parties and orgs should try to interact more. Treating organizing like a territorial dispute is stupid.
This
>>1438981Instead of just picking between orgs, the task in a situation with a splintered movement is to knit the groups together as much as possible. At the end of the day they all have the same goals (ostensibly) and it shouldn't be too hard to sort out who is actually doing things vs having some kind of sectarian circlejerk (although if they are at least reading then it might be helpful in getting more people to read).
No.1443416
I'm seriously thinking about quitting my org. They demand too much of my time. I'm a (mediocre) STEM student and I'll lose another semester because I haven't spent much time studying since they really needed my attention this entire last month on the University's student body election.
I'm torn apart and I don't know if this is the right thing but I see no alternative.
No.1443426
>>1443416Of course it's the right thing, you need to focus on your own life first, they shouldn't have even asked you to do that much. There's always more work that could be done but you need to maintain your own existence and just contribute any time you have to spare, focus on school first absolutely.
No.1443475
>>1443416vid related
You're not the next Lenin or something. Do what you need to do. Focus on your own shit instead of making sacrifices that won't accomplish much. You will be more useful to the movement in the long run if you have yourself taken care of.
No.1443810
>>1443416Don't just quit. The problem lies with your org.
These political death cult tactics are the reason they bleed members and never become a mass movement. You're not a bolshevik during a civil war. They aren't either.
Write out the examples of unreasonability and address them at your next meeting. Only this way can the org critically reflect on it. If they don't give you space for it, pushish it online and spread it around. They have failed in their self criticism if they dont allow you to voice the reasons they make you quit an entire org.
No.1443814
>>916347>English comprehension is hard for you I see.that just further proves that you are an imperialist, and an anglo chauvinist.
No.1449459
>>1442874 here, I was told to join Vallankumous, Finnish section of International Marxist Tendency. How is IMT, does anyone know? I know they're trots.
No.1449468
>>1443814Im from Europe not an English country
No.1449470
>>1449459>we can't do anything because we haven't analysed the conditions properly!>oh no, conditions have changed>we can't do anything because we haven't analysed the conditions properly!>oh no, conditions have changed>we can't do anything because we haven't analysed the conditions properly!>oh no, …It's great if you want to sniff your own farts in a university classroom in the evenings and sell newspapers during the day, while upholding your chapter's leaders' thought.
IMT is a cult.
No.1466659
Anyone have resources/guides for setting up a democratic constitution/protocols for a new org or project? It's only a small project right now but we want to do it right, because it could feasibly expand to hundreds of people.
The two main things would be making things run smoothly and preventing avoidable dramashittery from bad actors & wreckers.
No.1466821
My party chapter is currently working to build some connections between organized labour and our city's large Palestinian/Arab community. We just held a joint action with a Palestinian solidarity organization to commemorate the Nakba, and this happened in the midst of a long running strike. We've been heavily involved in supporting the strike as well, and I suggested to some members of the Palistinian group that we should try to build closer ties between organized labour and anti-imperialist elements in the Arab community. I suggested that they should join us in our efforts to support the strike, and they seemed fairly enthusiastic (they're mostly young, black and brown socdem uni students, with one confirmed Trot among them). Essentially, we're trying to put a kind of proto-Rainbow Coalition together, since the striking workers are almost entirely white, and mostly from rural areas outside of town. We would be aiming to inject anti-imperialist consciousness among the workers (as well as combat any potential racism and xenophobia), and promote class consciousness in the Arab community. Ideally this would result in more workers supporting local anti-Zionist/anti-imperialist forces, and those forces in turn supporting labour. Of course my only concern will be any kind of cultural friction that may emerge here, since I've heard these workers express some backwards views on certain social issues. I'm somewhat worried that these young students may be seriously put off by this. Does anybody have any experience with building these kinds of coalitions, or any suggestions in general?
No.1466882
>>1466659Depends what org do you want to make? I would try and look at a constitution of a group or org and extrapolate from that.
https://www.marxists.org/history/international/comintern/3rd-congress/riddell-translations/Communist-Party-organization.htmhttps://ocrev.org/organization-of-communist-revolutionaries-us-membership-constitution/https://munkaspart.hu/rolunk/szervezeti-szabalyzathttps://www.bannedthought.net/Philippines/CPP/2016/CPP-ConstitutionAndProgram-2016-English.pdfAs for the issues that you wanted to avoid, I don't know what ideological background you're coming from, but I recommend that you vote on an organisational committee to draft standing orders, organisational principles as well as the rights and duties of the members. Make it clear as day what these are and hammer them in at every opportunity. Make it known that each and every person would be subject to criticism and disciplinary action if they void these principles.
Naturally, education helps in this as well. Legion's "Constructive Criticism Handbook" might be helpful to you and your comrades here as well if you want to root out and quash these issues.
"Iron discipline does not preclude but presupposes criticism and contest of opinion within the party… Iron discipline does not preclude but presupposes conscious and voluntary submission, for only conscious discipline can be iron discipline." (Uncle Joe)
No.1468222
>>1466821>>1466821No experience but you should at least hold a briefing with both the leadership of that group and the workers and prepare some speecher connecting the struggles explicitly, explaining why solidarity is important for both groups. Make sure they are educated on what to say and how to tackle potential problems.
It's not a big problem if they don't mix at the site of the strike, it will take some time to build solidarity and get them used to each other, they're human after all
No.1469259
i tried to organize my local mcdonalds, but the lumpen Mcdonald workers just spat on me.
As I stopped at the drive-through to get my nuggets, I decided to conduct praxis and give these proles class consciousness. I started explaining how they were basically modern-day slaves and that they were better off rising against their masters. They spat on me and called me a filthy communist and told me to go live in china, then they put their heads down and continued to pick the cotton.
How do I conduct better praxis
No.1469260
>>1466821Might I suggest the workers and Palestinians get to know each other then you introduce the cringe students
No.1469262
>>1469259Do it at your workplace not someone else's son
No.1469263
>>1469262i tried at the factory i worked at for a week, but the same thing happened
No.1469265
>>1469263Ok son lay out what happened at the factory blow by blow
We'll work you through this
No.1469269
>>1469265I started explaining how we were paid less than one unit of what we produced by the tens of thousands per shift, by the hour. They told me to leave if i didn't like it so i did
No.1469270
>>1469269So son was this your first job?
No.1469271
>>1469270anon i think you're being baited
No.1469272
>>1469270no but i always get the same reaction
No.1469273
I don't mean to offend but I'm curious
Was it the manager you said it to or your coworkers
No.1469275
>>1469272Do you have bills to pay and people to feed?
If not carry on and I salute you join your local org even if it's a cult trot org as long as it's the most active and I salute you
No.1469277
>>1469275You'll be learning to salt unions son
Have fun
No.1469279
>>1469273i was on the line slaving with them. my friend who referred me and I were new hires who were being paid 1 or 2 dollars more per hour than some of them. we told them. they just kept slaving lol.
there was one who was paid the least and the manager had him climbing like 50 ft in the air to fix shit. told him and he didn't really comprehend
No.1469286
>>1469279Yes yes so you do know what salting a union is I hope
It's when you join a workplace with the explicit purpose of unionising it
No.1469289
>>1469286unions are illegal here. the best I could've possibly done is what I did. i got like 4 people, three of which I knew, to quit shortly after
No.1469379
>>1469259Did you remember to remind them that they are black/latinx? Maybe they didn't understand his oppressed they were.
No.1469724
>>1469259Either youre genuinly retarded or 99% chance this is bait.
No.1476821
>>1476806Reminds me of a lot of shit you see from the CPC-ML, a Canadian Hoxhaist party. They're of course more hardline than the Comintern era CPC, but this expresses itself in extreme caution and cageyness that delves into outright deception. They regularly hold events without any mention of their party, so the average attendee wouldn't know it was a communist event until they showed up. They're also super insular and are often unwilling to share information that would be extremely helpful to the socialist movement in general. I'm talking shit like contact information for union leaders and other progressive, pro-labour elements. It's like they want a monopoly on these connections for their party, even when it's obvious that the communist movement as a whole would be stronger if other parties had access to them.
No.1476837
>>1310295This kind of stuff is a big problem with UK trots too. For example they gained a lot of distrust for hijacking the popular dissent against teh Iraq and Afghan wars, using the banner of 'Stop The War' as a shell organization to do essentially nothing but to act as a feed organization in to 'Socialist Workers Party (trot)' and then every election to tell you to vote labour.
They also have a very high membership turnover as a result of this and targeting mainly students, so it is easy to say it is not even an effective tactic.
No.1476843
>>1476837Yeah, that's exactly the kind of thing people are pointing out with this group, someone even mentioned:
>Leftists in Britain, the US, and Europe have been voicing the same criticism of their local [Cliffite] Trot orgs for decades No.1478111
>>1449468decolonize your mind
No.1505031
>>1505029stinky ultra shoo shoo
No.1505093
>>1505017PSL sounds based
No.1505101
>>1505024The vanguard party americans doesnt want and need, but they deserve.
No.1505105
>>1505101curious on what is ur idea of a party that americans would want and need
No.1505127
>>1505017Talk to your local unions and try to get them to merge and/or build a workers' organization from there. Legacy parties that mainly just LARP are most likely not going to matter very much in the long run, and the important work to be done at this time is building working class organizations and
teaching organizing skills and class consciousness to workers, not trying to build up a party centered around historical movements.
No.1505130
>>1505127Thank you for an answer. But why do i want to merge unions exactly? And how is this done?
No.1505134
>>1505105 >>1505128 (me)
Althrough this is a harsh truth i think organization will change this, in brazil i see things improving and soon i hope america will be not a country that i hate and despise but a country that actually stand for justice and peace in thr world
No.1505135
>>1505128>Anti-Fascist and Anti-Rascist>Posts about a Ethnostate that was openly involved with RhodesiaLmao
No.1505146
>>1505130The unions are where the workers of the present are the most active and engaged (talking about the more spontaneous grassroots kind, not legacy ones like the writers' guild btw). This is where the
material interests of the working class are already beginning to manifest as
class struggle. This is the core of what will drive the communist movement and eventually revolution. Right now though, worker power is limited because the working class is so fragmented. Marx ended the Manifesto by telling workers to unite for a reason, and it's the same basic logic behind unionizing itself - strength in numbers and common interests.
This logic makes it easy to justify collaboration and coalition building, and having some kind of connection like a syndicate or One Big Union is a necessity to performing a
general strike or similar sorts of tactics. In the interim it also means greater support for single-industry strikes. If you have workers from various industries organizing together, then when
one industry strikes, they can be supported by the workers in
other industries as fellow union members (who are still at work earning money and paying dues normally). Networking can also help people find new jobs in different industries if the need arises.
>And how is this done?Ideally you'd be actually in one or more of these unions, but you could also contact them and volunteer to do the legwork of coordinating between them. Obviously that works better if they know and trust you which is why it's good to actually be a member for a while first. It also helps to understand how they operate, which is pretty important for being able to communicate between them. It would be best for unions to have an officer position devoted specifically to the task of coordinating with other unions - some do - but at the moment a lot of organizing workers are building and learning about all of this stuff from scratch. That's also why it's important for communists to be involved with these unions, to lend bigger picture insight and a longer-term view of things as well as (hopefully) historical knowledge of labor movements and class struggle that can be learned from. And also to push the unions to the left obviously.
No.1505500
>>1505148No lol, i just telling americans are still fearful of leninism so they take yet libby aproaches, im no social reactionary patsoc shit or bigoted cunt, Try to find me using the lame argument that LGBT is imperialism because i would tell that reactionaries from attacked countries justify imprerialism for opressing proles and LGBT peiple while liberals from atlantia exploit that.
No.1505503
>>1505500And also i add how some opportunists try to fuse reactionary views and fool idiots believe that they are socialist because the lack of any meaningful leftist party but also how reaction is stronger there.
No.1505622
>>1505500nobody wants to be a "professional revolutionary," people wanna be a revolutionary in their own ways without to being pigeonholed and contrived due to gravedugged moralism
No.1505625
>>1505148Dammit I think Haz managed to purge all our infiltrators out of his weird culty microsect's d*scord
If any of our moles are still there can they dig through the logs and see whether Haz did a seminar on detournement?
No.1505628
>>1505625Sorry should probably mention why I asked
>>1505148The funny thing about that pic is that stereotypically it's the ones at the top who think China is socialist and the ones at the bottom who don't
No.1505629
>>915841Is there a national org that is active but not local to your area?
If so you can start a chapter
No.1510459
>>1505127>Legacy parties that mainly just LARP are most likely not going to matter very much in the long run, and the important work to be done at this time is building working class organizations and teaching organizing skills and class consciousness to workers, not trying to build up a party centered around historical movements.You just described the function of a vanguard party: to train cadre, to teach organizing skills, building working class organizations
>not trying to build up a party centered around historical movementsI don't think that accurately describes what PSL or CPUSA is actually doing. What is your evidence that this is the behavior of PSL or CPUSA?
No.1510519
>>1505148LMAO neither of them are ML. Goof ball shit
Also, can we stop listening to pseudoanonymous sock puppet accounts with videogame/anime pictures and acting like they have something insightful to say
>>1505017PSL is so strong right now and they're only getting bigger. The People's Forum (with which the PSL works with a lot) is going to have a Revolutionary Summer School where they'll have people learning about Thomas Sankara and other figures. I think it would be stupid if PSL didn't have some cadre go to that because I can almost guarantee that a lot of groups will have people there, even if they are not necessarily socialist, the outcome of hardened, veteran activists meeting with communists is that they either become communists as well, seeing how their struggle that they've engaged in is actually a microcosm of the struggle against hegemonic imperialism, or they become bitter anti-communists. This is another reason why Democratic Centralism is so important. PSL comrades practice DemoCent and have procedures for how they talk to people. They are communists 24/7. Honestly, great people. We're going to see a lot more of them in the future. THe only negative things I can ever see about PSL are posts where the author names a totally unverifiable anecdote about some "bad" thing that *someone* in PSL did, but never anything concrete
No.1511010
>>1505146So I joined a union as a prereq for getting my current job. I am a member afaik in that dues are taken out of my paycheck and I join the benefits plan. If I contact them to try and get more involved, what should I say? I have a lot of social anxiety sorry if it seems like I'm clueless here
No.1511426
>>1510459>You just described the function of a vanguard party: to train cadre, to teach organizing skills, building working class organizationsWhere are the old parties doing this though?
>What is your evidence that this is the behavior of PSL or CPUSA?Where are they in the current labor struggles? I've seen PSL showing up at protests and the like but I've never heard of either of these parties trying to work with unions and
labor as opposed to focusing on electoral politics or professional activism, trying to repeat western communist movements of the 20th century without any significant support from the working class.
>>1511010Do they not have meetings? If they're not representing the rank and file they're not a real union. A lot of unions these days are completely co-opted by the company and are just a way of managing worker dissent. Surely you have contact information for them at least. Just for your own sake as an employee there you should ask them about union meetings and what the structure/relationship is between the leadership and rank and file. And you should also talk to the other employees who've been there a while to get their opinion.
No.1511927
>>1511010>So I joined a union as a prereq for getting my current job.>I am a member afaik in that dues are taken out of my paycheck and I join the benefits plan.That sounds like the kind of unions scandinavian countries have. You should know that those kind of unions work
with the government to find a deal that is most palatable. Use them for benefits, use them when something goes wrong at work, and things like that. But don't join if you think those unions have revolutionary potential, because you'll find it is a boring bureaucracy that simply carries out its role in the capitalist system. That role is to keep you satisfied, pacified, and be a shield for the companies against your grievances.
No.1512351
>>1511927They always could do with more volunteers on the customer support phone lines
>>1511010This is your foot in the door if you'd like to do some infiltration work for us
No.1512633
>>1510519(pseudonym means 'false name', so someone using a handle is pseudonymous. pseudo
anonymous does not describe what you're talking about)
No.1513076
>>1511426>Where are the old parties doing this though?I can't speak to all the old parties
>>1511426>Where are they in the current labor struggles? I've seen PSL showing up at protests and the like but I've never heard of either of these parties trying to work with unions and labor as opposed to focusing on electoral politics or professional activismCPUSA does electoral politics in the sense that they endorse Democrats. While PSL does run candidates in some elections, including the Presidential election, that is not the focus of their strategy. They recognize that the odds are stacked against the left, against socialists, especially in the United States where the legislature is not really parliamentarian in the usual sense. The use of election campaigns is just another form of agitation, another opportunity to expose the contradictions.
The PSL comrades in my area were organizing with the Starbucks workers who recently unionized, as well as the UUP SUNY/CUNY faculty and staff union.
>trying to repeat western communist movements of the 20th century without any significant support from the working class.Support from the working class has to be cultivated… The working class isn't simply going to follow someone just because that person is saying the "right words." You have to struggle alongside them in their authentic, organic struggles and to provide context for their struggles, and to do so consistently, and to be consistently principled
No.1513090
>>1513076>The PSL comrades in my area were organizing with the Starbucks workers who recently unionized, as well as the UUP SUNY/CUNY faculty and staff union. Yes, and I've just seen them working with the UPS workers in their current negotiations. I stand corrected (gladly). I just opened the thread to issue a retraction on that.
> You have to struggle alongside them in their authentic, organic struggles and to provide context for their struggles, and to do so consistently, and to be consistently principledYes, that was my issue originally, is that a lot of parties are in their own bubble doing struggle sessions and printing newspapers but not actually interacting with workers in any meaningful way. I have been corrected about PSL in that respect.
>>1505127 (me)
>>1505017I was wrong, talk to PSL if they're in your area (but do still look into the unions). I was ignorant of their involvement, probably due to their small size and relative absence local to me. If they are not yet active in your area or not active with the unions perhaps you can help them in that regard. An openly socialist organization coordinating with unions is even better than the organic labor movement we've seen so far, and represents another step in the development of the workers organizing and building revolutionary potential. It's great news and I'm very happy to be wrong about it.
No.1513148
>>1513090My apologies for my passion. I did not wish to appear hostile.
No.1513194
>>1513076>The use of election campaigns is just another form of agitation, another opportunity to expose the contradictions.They're doing a piss poor job of it. Everyone makes fun of the CPUSA for their electoral interventions and I have not seen anyone's minds change about capitalism, it actually makes the CPUSA more repulsive since any young communists first impulse is to avoid the democrats.
No.1513690
what are you supposed to do when you constantly feel left out in your org? they're not very active as is, but when they do anything it feels like they never give me any information on it beforehand
No.1513698
>>1513148You didn't, no worries.
>>1513690>what are you supposed to do when you constantly feel left out in your org?The squeaky wheel gets the grease as they say. If you notice an issue speak up, you may be the first/only one or you may call attention to something that others didn't think to or couldn't get to.
>>1513194Yeah, that's why I was dismissive of them. I have similar feelings toward electoral participation in general (in the US). I will credit PSL with at least shooting for seats it's actually possible for outsiders to win, but I still think it's usually not the best use of resources (all the time spent campaigning could be used working on fixing problems more directly or organizing). There are cases where it makes some sense like going for city council in a large city, if you can actually push for policy change that would do something useful you might be able to get more done that way. But that's a rare case.
No.1513721
>>1513194To be honest, I am very much unaware of what CPUSA has as its orientation toward bourgeois elections in current year. I had heard in the past that they endorsed democrats, but admittedly, I haven't heard much analysis or claimsmaking.
PSL does participate in bourgeois elections, but does not endorse democrats. PSL does not make election campaigns its main focus all the time because they prefer to do direct action, whereas the electoral campaign process isn't usually likely to result in a PSL member attaining public office (the odds are stacked against communists, in general, since they oppose all the big moneyed interests), so the function of electoral campaigns for an organization like PSL is as platforms of agitation, as platforms from which the class character of the bourgeois imperialist state can be shown, plainly, to the masses, and to articulate from this privileged, public platform that the party is in opposition to bourgeois class rule, that they have a proposal, that the people can take power and take ownership of the means of production, implement workplace democracy, initiate, in general, the democratization of society, annihilate chauvism by attacking its root cause, etc.
TLDR:
The people grow to trust vanguard parties like PSL or CPUSA by being shown by the communist party, the most advanced section of the working class, through commitment to struggling alongside the people, not because they were leaders in bourgeois parliaments, but because they distinguish themselves as leaders who are fighters for the people, revolutionaries dedicated to struggle, bravely raising contradictions in the face of the most powerful men in the country, defying their class rule and their contempt. The communists must be able to speak as leaders of the nation.
No.1513724
>>1513721im gonna be honest i have a question about the leninist method u advocate… What is the reason for the competition among communist groups which is so obviously detrimental for the development of the subjective forces as a whole, that is assumed that by the end one group will come out on top, with a leadership that is known and trusted, like in a positive brand association way… Is this necessarily how it is? I know this issue isn't settled in the US where there are orgs like FRSO (both splits) who have been around a while, are communist and serious, but don't see the need to be a "communist party"; they see they coming in the future.
Like similarly to the development of the existing progressive movements into the United Front being a goal for making revolution, could we see the existing array of subjective forces as incomplete and requiring unification and development into a higher form?
I do get how it arises out of necessity that there will be relatively advanced and relatively lagging, and the lagging will follow the advanced in certain situations and this is beneficial… but people won't follow a party into revolution, they'll follow abstract leadership to the ballots at most. I can't find any justification for the model of the relationship between communists and everyone else as a relationship that requires convincing the masses to have faith in us (or in some leaders among us) and then obey.
And what is leadership exactly, when it's revolutionary… in other words, dissolving the existing power structures? It's not the ability to command obedience. What communists give to the wider progressive movement is knowledge and education… communist leaders are the educated, and devoid of the power to enforce or seduce obedience to enlightened rule, our role seems more relegated to leading through education. Which seems to me like it requires whole apparatuses for educating and inculturating people who are already politically active, so they can do their jobs better… Is this right?
No.1513771
>>1513724>>1513724>What is the reason for the competition among communist groups which is so obviously detrimental for the development of the subjective forces as a whole, that is assumed that by the end one group will come out on top, with a leadership that is known and trusted, like in a positive brand association way… Is this necessarily how it is?I cannot speak to it other than to say that the U.S. government has sought to destabilize the left, to use COINTELPRO to break up organizations, to sew division among revolutionaries, to lock up our leaders, etc.
>>1513724>I know this issue isn't settled in the US where there are orgs like FRSO (both splits) who have been around a while, are communist and serious, but don't see the need to be a "communist party"; they see they coming in the future. I don't know much about FRSO but this is a strange statement. I don't know what you are referring to exactly. Who said this?
>>1513724
>Like similarly to the development of the existing progressive movements into the United Front being a goal for making revolution, could we see the existing array of subjective forces as incomplete and requiring unification and development into a higher form?What united front?
>>1513724>could we see the existing array of subjective forces as incomplete and requiring unification and development into a higher form?What do you mean by subjective forces? If you mean subjective conditions not being high enough for revolution, we would be in agreement. The objective conditions already exist, however.
>and requiring unification and development into a higher form?The contradictions do have to be resolved, by way of synthesis.
>I do get how it arises out of necessity that there will be relatively advanced and relatively lagging, and the lagging will follow the advanced in certain situations and this is beneficial… but people won't follow a party into revolution, they'll follow abstract leadership to the ballots at most.Most people do not vote. Most people understand that bourgeois elections are rigged.
>>1513724> I can't find any justification for the model of the relationship between communists and everyone else as a relationship that requires convincing the masses to have faith in us (or in some leaders among us) and then obey.You have it twisted. The communists do not seek to impose onto the masses and ask them to follow our lead, or to accept our "knowledge." Our theory affirms their lived experience of struggle, of oppression. The communists having a revolutionary theory that is clarified by practice, convey to the masses while struggling
alongside the masses in their authentic, organic struggle, the historical, material context of struggle, and show how it is part of the same struggle that others are having throughout this material stage of imperial capitalism. The masses are not detached from reality. They are very much acquainted with the reality of oppression because they are submerged in it. So we are not in the business of telling them that they are oppressed. We are also not in the business of telling them that they *MUST* follow us. It is quite the opposite. They are in their organic struggles co-leading the struggle. We as trained, professional revolutionaries assist them, by providing them with a political platform, and to affirming to the material root cause of their struggle: capitalism.
So no, our expectation of the masses isn't that they should "obey" us. This is just an anti-communist pronouncement.
>And what is leadership exactly, when it's revolutionary… in other words, dissolving the existing power structures? It's not the ability to command obedience.Where did I say that communists wish to make people obey? What way in which do you propose we implement in order to dissolve existing power structures?
I suppose you meant to say that we should abolish vertical hierarchy and implement horizontalism. The horizontalist consensus mode of decision making seems very egalitarian, but it does not actually abolish vertical hierarchy, it only hides it, and masks it, covers it up, and causes de-facto dictatorships because individual people might have outsized influence on account of having themselves a political platform or have a seat in government, or because they are internet-famous, etc. Waiting on consensus (everyone agreeing) can take time, and can immobilize action. None of this is to say that we can;t have debate, we absolutely must have debate, but we also must affirm that when we are done debating something, and that when we have voted democratically what to do, we should accept the outcome of the vote, and put aside our own personal interests in the interest of unity of action. Horizontalist consensus organizations actually fail at consensus because sometimes sectors of the organization implement contrary programmes. DSA, for example, is an organization that is definitely not a Leninist vanguard party, since its decision making model is not democratic centralism. DSA is currently split on the issue of the proxy war in Ukraine. The DSA Internationalist Committee is staunchly opposed to the proxy war, but other DSA people I have seen were pro-NATO, pro-USA, pro-sending more guns and money to perpetuate the conflict, etc.
>What communists give to the wider progressive movement is knowledge and education… communist leaders are the educated, and devoid of the power to enforce or seduce obedience to enlightened rule, our role seems more relegated to leading through education.Again, this anti-communist nonsense about communists wanting to impose onto the masses, when the communists are very explicitly against treating people like objects and affirm, actually, the interest in developing the critical consciousness of the people so that they may attain subjectivity, become free agents, become able to see the contradictions for themselves, that they can with clarity pursue their own humanization after having been dehumanized by capitalism.
>Which seems to me like it requires whole apparatuses for educating and inculturating people who are already politically active, so they can do their jobs better… Is this right?The whole point is to make revolution possible. The state has an array of professional counter revolutionaries. If we are to win this shit, we need to be at the very least as well organized as the bourgeois imperialist state, and eventually to be able to outmaneuver the state.
No.1515102
>>1513771>I don't know much about FRSO but this is a strange statement. I don't know what you are referring to exactly. Who said this?FRSO is an organization, it doesn't deem itself a "party", essentially a pre-party organization indefinitely. It's not trying to be the mainstream or represent communism in the US as a whole, i guess. I assume liberation road is on the same page, they openly avow themselves as movementists.
As for FRSO, they say so in their writings, their program or manifesto or one of those if u want to check it out
>I cannot speak to it other than to say that the U.S. government has sought to destabilize the left, to use COINTELPRO to break up organizations, to sew division among revolutionaries, to lock up our leaders, etc. There is also legitimate discontent with existing parties that causes splintering
>What united front?This is a term that refers to an alliance of progressive forces, usually in the context of being against fascism
>What do you mean by subjective forces?The disparate or unified collection of class-conscious individuals
>Most people do not vote. Most people understand that bourgeois elections are rigged. Good point, though in many places the elections are not fully rigged and low voter turnout only hurts people. But as it stands, most people in my country the US who are eligible to vote do vote at least some of the time.
>You have it twisted. The communists do not seek to impose onto the masses and ask them to follow our lead, or to accept our "knowledge." Our theory affirms their lived experience of struggle, of oppression. The communists having a revolutionary theory that is clarified by practice, convey to the masses while struggling alongside the masses in their authentic, organic struggle, the historical, material context of struggle, and show how it is part of the same struggle that others are having throughout this material stage of imperial capitalism.Ah, this makes more sense thank you. But what exactly is the purpose of conveying to the masses the historical and material context of struggle? What are they supposed to do with that knowledge?
No.1517412
so i'm being kicked out of my org for… not saying "please" or "thank you." what the actual fuck?
i wish i had the actual words to describe this. i've always been left out of the loop and now they're kicking me out for the shittiest reason. i hope larger orgs don't do this shit.
No.1517414
>>1517412they might be lying to you about the actual reason.
No.1517415
>>1517412Sounds like they had another reason and this is just the excuse they're using. Not very good way to handle it even if you actually deserved it.
No.1517423
>>1517414>>1517415yeah i'm figuring as much, but i can't stand it when people aren't honest with me because there's nothing i can do to change it. i've had a hunch the group was hiding a lot from me for a while now and i have no idea how to deal with it. i'm more angry than i should be right now and probably just need to take a walk.
No.1519104
>>1515102>Ah, this makes more sense thank you. But what exactly is the purpose of conveying to the masses the historical and material context of struggle? What are they supposed to do with that knowledge?All struggles under Imperialist Capitalism are actually the same struggle. The struggle of the Cuban people against the blockade imposed onto Cuba by the United States is but one facet of struggle against the U.S. Empire. Black Lives Matter activists in the United States are also facing off against the U.S. Empire. The same is true of Palestinian activists fighting for the self-determination of Palestine against Israeli apartheid. The U.S. Empire supports Israel and empowers Israel. So the struggle of Palestinians against Israeli apartheid are in a struggle against the U.S. Empire, for which Israel is effectively a colony of. The struggle against poverty and underdevelopment in the U.S. is part of the same struggle against U.S. Empire. It is quite literally all connected. The fact that these struggles are connected is vital because it points to the possibility of multinational, proletarian internationalist unity against imperialism!
No.1519109
>>1515102>>Most people do not vote. Most people understand that bourgeois elections are rigged. >Good point, though in many places the elections are not fully rigged and low voter turnout only hurts people. But as it stands, most people in my country the US who are eligible to vote do vote at least some of the time.I would not blame any American for saying that the elections in the US are rigged.
Of course, there is a great deal of politically backward people who believe elections in the US to be rigged because "the election was stolen from Trump in 2020" … I think that is a ridiculous notion. People who insist that the vote is rigged because of voting machines or because of some irregularity on election night or because of a spurious claim of voters being "bussed in" might not be entirely wrong but things like voting machines are really a distraction from the fact of the matter, which is that the only "viable" political candidates in the US are the ones who have the closest proximity to Capital.
Every Presidential election breaks records on how much private money is raised. On top of that, the electoral college is basically the deciding factor. So when the politically backward say that the election was rigged in 2020, there is a kernel of truth to what they're saying. It's really only the framing that they get wrong. They think that Trump to be a man of the people – that is total nonsense – but when they say that the people's voice is not represented … that part is true. What we have to do is tell people when they're right and to explain why, but not to shit on people every time they say something that sounds wrong. People frequently get things wrong because Capitalism dumps false consciousness onto the masses constantly!
No.1519110
>>1519109>On top of that, the electoral college is basically the deciding factor. All the legal constructions of bourgeois society reflect the interests of the bourgeoisie
No.1562626
>>916692I genuinely want to understand why and how you feel this way.
It's a good thing that there's a group of young people trying to organise to the best of their ability. It's a good thing that someone who recognises that they have to take on the responsibility to try and be a good leader. It's also a great thing that this person is self aware enough to reach out here and ask for a bit of a work though of the general issues that affect small organisations.
How is this bad thing? Why is your immediate reaction to shut down a comrades open mindedness?
No.1563613
>>918482What do you mean by provide services?
No.1563747
>>1007957Any party or org needs a trustworthy internal arbitration system. It can scale up pretty slowly, only need a few per 40 active members. It should have very specifically established functions and boundaries, be entirely confidential, and have the ability to discreetly suspend (but not eject) members during an investigation, after which it is either quietly resolved between effected parties or the issue is brought to the central committee or equivelant body to make a decision regarding expulsion.
Party culture is overall the more important part, but is something can only be cultivated holistically.
No.1563936
How would you structure or design a trade union to ensure it had a revolutionary / progressive orientation? I may be in a position to submit constitutional amendments for a small union.
No.1563949
>>1563936Instant recall for all elected offices.
No.1563963
>>1563949What is instant recall?
No.1563964
>>1563963you dont need to wait for elections to vote for someone to be removed from their position, it can be done whenever people are dissatisfied with their representative
No.1563969
>>1563964Ah ok. We already have that iirc. Any other ideas?
No.1564193
>>1563936>I may be in a position to submit constitutional amendments for a small union.Post an anonymised version and let fucking /leftypol/ proofread it.
No.1564226
>>1564193I mean on a high level.
No.1564451
>>1007957Recently Read a few paragraphs on this from "Seize The Time" By Bobby Seale, a founding member of the Black Panther Party; It talked of a particular issue and it's resolvement, in short:
No.1565434
union day of power. unionfest. unionconf.
A couple of days every year when union members from every union converge on a field or stadium and camp, barbecue, meet, listen, drink and maintain basic union thought. Is this done in any country?
No.1569012
>>1565434Most Central Labor Councils in the United States organize a labor day picnic. It is usually tradies and white collar who show up since they have the day off, instead of blue collar CIO members.
No.1575173
>>1575160yep it's a lib union, no real comment other than that
No.1582777
i don't have any leftist friends. i'm socially awkward, and my experiences with any other orgs have felt more like a niche social club. i feel like any attempt at joining an org is not worth the effort. is it worth it or would i have a better time doing literally anything else?
No.1583397
>>1582777Maybe educate yourself more, seek to advance the debate within the org to a smarter and more forward thinking, a (dialectical or historical) materialist thinking, thus the organization becomes more educated and conscious as do you.
No.1583400
>>1583397Also look at lenin, the groups he were in were pretty much social, discussing the communist issues of the day, found this out from skimming a biography on lenin (Robert service) same applies for Che (Jon Lee Anderson).
No.1583567
>>1583397Educated in what way? Materialist thinking in what direction? Like, I'd like to know how, but it feels as if that would only depend if the group is willing to listen as well. Last group I was in I thought was more educated but it was so inactive that nothing was done anyway. I was even ignored for trying to make the group more active.
No.1591129
>>1589495Blurb without clicking on the link or PDF:
>Are there problems where you work? Maybe your pay is too low, conditions are unsafe, or your boss has it in for someone you work with… and you’re ready to do something about it.>This book will show you how to fight back where you work and win. You’ll learn how to identify the key issues in your workplace, build campaigns to tackle them, anticipate management’s tricks and traps, and inspire your co-workers to stand together despite their fears.>We've distilled generations of organizing know-how into 47 easily accessible secrets. Put them all together and you've got a step-by-step guide to building power on the job. No.1591333
>the thing I would like your feedback on is explaining how you conduct meetings, how to educate cadre, how to retain cadre, how to ensure people show up, what communist youths are even supposed to do.
So where I'm organizing we have this concept of "self-interest" being the most important thing to zero in on when it comes to developing cadre and leadership. Basically don't be afraid of asking people "why are you here?" and getting into serious personal conversations about their background. Being unified on ideology is obviously also essential, but ideology isn't what keeps us coming back to organizing. Where I am we organize "one-on-ones" where we take an hour or so to connect with each-other's self-interest, their ambitions, and what they're fighting for. These conversations have helped us connect better with our pain, our individual skills, and come together as a more unified collective force. I highly recommend trying it out for yourselves, and let me know if you have any questions!
When it comes to education, focus on connecting theory and practice. I would recommend having some kind of baseline study guide or curriculum that all new members must learn to be a part of the org. Set up regular (weekly or biweekly) classes led by a variety of experienced members teaching a part of the curriculum that they're experienced in. This curriculum should contain a baseline understanding of your organization's ideology (which in this case appears to be "orthodox marxism", whatever that means in this context), the basic history of the organization, and basic reasoning behind the organization's structure and practice. This ensures a baseline understanding of what the org is, what it's about, and how organizers orient themselves in the wider movement. Also if you want to conduct additional internal/external political orientations reading groups can be an option (in moderation). Reading groups should be close-knit and connected with opportunities you see on the ground, with a specific goal in mind. Make sure it's interactive and horizontal, rather than a class teaching from the top-down. So maybe if you're looking to get connected to labor struggles, locate a work that's contains important lessons which may be relevant and applicable to your situation, and discuss it with your comrades with the express intention of forming an action plan that will be carried out.
And it is extremely important to make sure things are carried out. Nothing burns people out in an organization faster than constantly making plans which go nowhere. Ensure there's one or two people who volunteer to "bottom-line" the action. These will be the people directly in-charge of that event and whose job it is to ask others to take on specific roles (media, security, printing, etc.). Hold them accountable to that. As leadership of the branch it's you and your fellow leadership's job to check in regularly outside of meetings and ensure work's getting done. If someone's dropping the ball, tell them, and ask if they need to step back and take a smaller role. Don't shy away from tension and constructive criticism. As an organizer you'll sometimes need to tell people tough things they need to hear to ensure that the organization is actually getting things done. You'll potentially lose some members this way, but those who remain will be strengthened and together you'll be able to attract new cadre in an organized fashion, and that cadre will be able to seek mentorship from the more experienced cadre, quickening and increasing the quality of internal education. Always remember that when it comes to organizing, quality is always more important than quantity. You could potentially have an org with 100,000 members that's still garbage if everyone's disorganized and pointing in a million directions.
The thing I have the least advice for is what communist youth are meant to do. The simplest answer I have is honestly "what the rest of us are doing." Being youth doesn't divorce you from the working class struggle, it just means you'll need to be creative and work around the limitations of youth situations. School and campus organizing is an obvious starting point, but nothing says you can't also be involved in workplace organizing and tenant unions, among other things.
No.1595585
>>1595475>How does one go about redpilling a normie?they will redpill themselves if they care enough
>Is there any sure fire method for doing sono. this isn't a video game. you're not catching pokemon or breaking horses in red dead.
>should it be done by a case by case basis? you should join a party organization, educate, agitate, organize, try to form unions in your work place if you can, or at least go work for a cooperative, and advocate for non-revisionist socialism, i.e., the workers violently seizing the means of production, smashing the state, and instituting a democratic people's republic.
>who should you target, social-liberals and liberals, or should you include centrists and conservatives?bourgeois ideology. People have to realize on their own that these approaches have failed. They have to start by asking the right questions. That is when you swoop in with the right answers. If they aren't asking the right questions, you can't force them to change the way they think. You can only fight them when they side with the bourgeoisie. Class alone does not make someone an ally in the political struggle. It only means they share your class interests, whether they realize it or not.
>Or is it better to go after apolitical people who are either uninterested or tired of bourgeoisie politics?It is very hard to get apolitical people to care about politics, but with people in general, you should "go to the masses." i.e. ask them questions, find out what their grievances are, listen 80% of the time, talk 20% of the time, don't be too confrontational, and start to pick out the ones who are ripe for radicalization because they've already become fed up.
>And finally where should you do it?Whenever and wherever you have a moment and a chance. School, sports, work, outside, online, church (some marxists and atheists go to church specifically to be in contact with people), wherever you socialize with people.
Oh, and always combat liberalism.
No.1595759
>>1595475If you live in the imperialist core, and let's be honest if you're posting here you probably do, the chances of convincing the people around you to advocate against their own material interests in the short term for a benefit they likely will never live to see is unlikely. Just keep your head down and as the other anon mentioned respond when people ask the right questions. Focus your efforts on helping the people struggling in the third world and in the disadvantaged at home but hold no delusions about the workers aristocracy spontaneously developing class consciousness if you use the right key phrase.
No.1595825
>>1595759>Material conditionsOnly until this becomes true "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" we will be alienated from our fellow man. It is in all of our material interests to make this true.
No.1595862
>>1595475>should it be done by a case by case basisdefinitely. Some people who buy into liberal democracy might swayed by revealing the sham it is, environmentalists can easily be shown why the profit motive, free trade and liberal order is in direct contradiction with it, people from exploited periphery might be interested in imperialism mechanisms, science autists convinced by the practical economic science that is marxism, exploited blue collar workers can obviously see the benefits of syndicalism etc
just approach what interest and concern them from your marxist lense should be enough to have productive conversations. Dont even try to specifically "convert", open discussion with people you trust is the most sure way to have your opinions swayed.
>And when doing so who should you target, the people you're close too, in contact often, have private conversations with
No.1595981
>>1595825Idealism.
John the electrical engineer isn't going to be thrilled at the prospect of opening up his house to jamal and cletus while he has his unblemished status pickup truck appropriated to be used by someone who actually needs it.
No.1595983
>>1595475There is already a organizing thread anon you should go there.
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