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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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File: 1653872500156.jpg (68.38 KB, 789x535, 1651751906299.jpg)

 No.995641

How does a proletarian dictatorship best defend itself from the dangers of bureaucracy and corruption? How effective were the Cultural Revolution and Stalin's purges in this regard? What other methods were used in socialist countries?

 No.995677

Econopolitical cybernetization. It will cut out the ground from which the bureaucrats try to reintroduce capital.
And a Cultural Revolution will still be necessary as well.
As will proletarian internationalism be, so as to limit the adverse effects of the inevitable blockades and sanctions as much as possible.

 No.995749

>>995641
Corruption and bureaucracy is unfortunately inevitable, neither can be stopped but it both can be mitigated with the right measures.
>Corruption
People will always want to try and make a little extra on the side, the trick is to allow them to do so without fundamentally compromising themselves. So alternatives must always be given to engaging in corruption, whether it technically legitimizing it with high bonuses and pay <why make extra on the side?, we'll give it to you straight!
Or through greasing the wheels of society.
<why make extra on the side? You're going to make way more once you finish this power station
Shit goes hand in hand with dealing with a bureaucracy, people need a reason to move faster and not get bogged down, so resources have to diverted to making sure shit gets done.Of course not too much, else you end up with more resources in admin than work.

 No.995767

Socialism is inherently less corrupt and bureaucratic than capitalism

 No.995802

Reposting from:
>>990739 (You)
>>990768
>>992302 (You)

>Unfortunately as movements, orgs, and formations remain marginalized, so will these circles be susceptible to abusers, cranks, and opportunists. In order to combat this, mass literacy on trauma and abuse as well as individual principled practice can help insulate growing movements from these behaviors and guide individual comrades to navigate spaces safely and recognize threats to said safety.


>Growing orgs like CPUSA or PSL need to have accountability processes in place to help resolve long term conflicts and increase the capacity for rehabilitation of comrades who are still potential assets in the struggle in the face of allegations of abuse, true or not, that is centered around the needs of the victim as well as conflict resolution in general. Abusive behavior is reactionary behavior. Satiating sadistic or entirely self-serving impulses at the expense of comrades is to me a call-sign of potential corruption or lack of integrity that undermines the organizational culture when attrition and burn out are common problems that every org faces as members die, are caught up in survival in the system, or have not fully committed to action. Interpersonal and abusive dynamics are often times very complicated. NOT having institutional support on a national level to help resolve these is a recipe for same marginalization and attrition that has plagued left orgs for ages now.


>Marginalized movements who have no sense or understanding of mass politics and without such accountability processes will devolve into said cultish practice as they are too absorbed in intellectualizing and gratifying the needs of the abusers. Intellectual rigidity is a sign of dogmatism.


>t. Anon who organizes and encounters these problems way too often.

 No.995805

>>995802
<Growing orgs like CPUSA or PSL need to have accountability processes in place to help resolve long term conflicts and increase the capacity for rehabilitation of comrades who are still potential assets in the struggle in the face of allegations of abuse, true or not, that is centered around the needs of the victim as well as conflict resolution in general. Abusive behavior is reactionary behavior. Satiating sadistic or entirely self-serving impulses at the expense of comrades is to me a call-sign of potential corruption or lack of integrity that undermines the organizational culture when attrition and burn out are common problems that every org faces as members die, are caught up in survival in the system, or have not fully committed to action. Interpersonal and abusive dynamics are often times very complicated. NOT having institutional support on a national level to help resolve these is a recipe for same marginalization and attrition that has plagued left orgs for ages now.
>Do you have any tips or resources on how this might be achieved?
>We have a lot of social workers in our org, so we're able to "detect" potential issues, but with more people coming in lately we're starting to find the juggling difficult :\

 No.995808

>>995805
>Apologies for the late response. Regardless if you see this, I think it'd be handy for other folks.

>First off, when you can, read this study: https://academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4358&context=gc_etds


>Sure, the main focus of the study is anarkiddies but the author uses historical contextual examples using other formations as well like the BPP or SDS. You might pick up something useful regarding interpersonal relations regardless. So imagine all of these issues, success, and limitations that a decentralized community has encountered, and now imagine if disciplined and principled cadre of organizations implemented forms of accountability on a local or national level.


>Suprisingly enough, the only org that has some sort of an restorative/HR/internal conflict resolution type thing is the DSA. Maybe PSL has one after the whole fiasco that was aired on Twitter a few years back, but haven't received an update on that. From what I've seen of which is aired publically, DSA only has a single national harassment officer that coordinated with local chapters and that hasn't been as effective as it could've been over ongoing internal struggles regarding Palestinian solidarity. Now they're considering from what I've heard, expanding this structure to a whole council of grievance officers instead of just one person as it is difficult to juggle all of these things individually. If your org has a bunch of social workers, honestly that could work quite well if you wish to look over what DSA has publically available and adjust it. Demcent is good during crises for dealing with conflicts, but isn't enough for movement building I believe.

 No.995812

>>995749
I'd argue bureaucracy is necessary. Whether this bureaucracy is principled that is another matter. Also corruption is NOT inevitable. This is pessimistic and deterministic. The solution to corruption is transparency, internal democracy, and accountability. Refer to >>995802

 No.995872

Periodic purge's all else is pseudo-intellectual rambling.

 No.995883

Complex question but not allowing higher ranks to veto the election of someone in a layer below is a start.

 No.995919

>>995872
>Cadre go bye bye because some leftypol schizo tries to hunt down one PMC

 No.995935

Stalin was the corruption lol

 No.995963

>>995812
>The solution to corruption is transparency, internal democracy, and accountability.
And how "inevitable" are these exactly? Recognize that there's nothing concrete in your words here. Your point is like when the neoliberals insist that we just need more individualism, more free trade, more immigration, more military inverventions and then everything will be a utopic bougie democracy. You can argue about "working towards" but that just means you're never really going to get there.

I agree with the general point of how growing orgs have growing pains and how marginalized movements and communities become co-opted by bullshit artists, but preaching about ideals does about nothing without any actual actions suggested.
>This is pessimistic and deterministic.
You find me something to be optimistic about in-between the pandemic, war, starvation, climate change and everyone dying. No revolution is forthcoming anywhere, there is no more comintern. There are no solutions to human nature, some people always want more, no amount of individual principles will help here, not everyone can be person-scout. That's why I insist on finding ways to mitigate the motivation, harm and damage that ensues with corruption

 No.995974

In theory the purely bourgeois role of a beaurcrat as a funcionary of society would cease to exist under communism. Those in a position to be in charge are precisely those who contribute the most in that domian ("from each according to their abilities…) Such dissolution of such static class categories is after all one of the objectives.It would explain for example why someone like Mao or Stalin had no boundaries in their way stepping into positions of the upper command of society despite their peasant origins.

It may sound naive but the solution is simply those who want to do something and do it best to do it and to rise into positions of authority in proportion to their contribution. The labor theory of value essentially implies that that value is objective and intrinsic to what the agent does.

The problem with this meritocratic viewpoint is that it assumes good faith from the participants. A clver layabout would fraudlently engineer social arrangements using the structures of power afforded by bereaucratic authority to make it appear that they are justifying their position. They may fabricate data, steal credit from their lower ranked comrade colaborers , or worse use their positions to rewrite the rules so that they operate in their favor. In short, a corrupt bureaucrat under commonism is no less than the seedling of a budding capitalist.

Look closely at such a traitor , and you will see the embryonic development of the basic behavioral and cognitive profile of the capitalist with all the dressing and additions of finance and capital. Even in a society that does not primarily reward in money, even without money, corruption manifests due to concentrations of power that have grown inert . That happens the moment the agent not so much acts for their own selfish benefit but manipulates the entire course of exhange and production and labor to exclued themselves from participating in the process while reaping a disproportionate benefit.

Even before money makes corruption trivial, the problem of corruption under communism becomse a matter of rooting out this basic tendency in human nature. Not by anything crazy like gulags necessairly, but by simply booting those who have power out of power once they stop having anything to show for it. Ideally they would accept this judgement and walk away from it peacefully, otherwise their fate is for the commisars to decide.

 No.995981

>>995974
> the basic behavioral and cognitive profile of the capitalist ***with all the dressing and additions of finance and
<with
Aw crap I meant to write "without." I fucked up the whole meaning of the sentence.

 No.996048

Make the bureacrats elected by their peers and the people they work under?

 No.996121

>>995641
>How effective were the Cultural Revolution and Stalin's purges in this regard?
LOL, how do you think? political bureaucracy isn't capable of purging itself, it would always result in one group of political elite purging another groups and consolidating power

the only methods are freedom of information by design and radical sortition schemes
and no, I don't just mean legislative branch, but also judicial and executive branches, especially courts and law enforcement

concrete political forms should be arrived at in the process of political life, ie correlation between expertise and randomness
ideal political model for proletariat as a class is a situation where there is no expertise required, where every person is replaceable, so there is no danger of some expert entrenching in their position due to specialized knowledge

this is obviously an unfeasible ideal, but it is beneficial to keep it in mind in the back your head - proletarian state should aspire to this ideal, because approximating this ideal benefits only proletariat

anyway, if the economic cost of introducing radical randomization into highly specialized fields may be still too high in the foreseeable future, benefits of introducing it into a political process greatly outweighs any associated costs

 No.996227

>>995641
Didnt read your post
China solved this problem 50 years ago and have perfected the solution under the Xi era
Why cant westoids drop their nostalgia goggles and move on from the 20th century and look to current year for the answers?

 No.996311

>>996227
>if you can't beat them, join them
wew truly a new Xi era, Xi epoch, Xi socialism with suicide nets characteristics

 No.996401

>>996227
China, famous for not having a corrupt burocracy

 No.996404


 No.996442

>>996404
Hello Deng xiao ping

 No.996479

>>995677
Based. Tell me more anon

 No.996507

>>996401
I'm not saying China is free of corruption but they have pretty solid mechanisms to prevent it

 No.996524

>>996507
>they have pretty solid mechanisms to prevent it
like what?

 No.996542

>>995935
this
and people wonder how the USSR managed to shit itself immediately after he died, bitch it already shit itself 30 years ago

 No.996545

>>996542
ok, Trotsky
what about dem unions and kronstadt?

 No.996571

>>996545
i'm not a trotskyist though
but him putting down the kronstadt brigade was bretty based and he was ultimately proven correct about soviet bureaucracy

 No.996578

>>996571
>but him putting down the kronstadt brigade was bretty based
how?

>and he was ultimately proven correct about soviet bureaucracy

pretty rich coming from a fag who postulated that there shouldn't be independent unions because there couldn't possibly be a conflict between workers and the state apparatus, ie bureaucracy

 No.996588

>>996507
no they don't lol

 No.996589


 No.996590

>>996571
pretty much my position also. maybe thotsky was an opportunist or whatever but he was right about the ussr being a degenerated worker's state

 No.996611

>>995963
It's called participating in struggle and movement building to have these things be the norm within organizations. How many orgs take short cuts? They don't have enough member input through a democratic process? How many leaders hide skeletons in their closet regarding sexual assault, a little money from dues on the side, etc.? Having these accountability measures early before a movement grows can have beneficial long term effects. Mass literacy on abusive behaviors means that the type of underhanded things that are typically available are now recognizable to all.

Let me put it another way, your deterministic conclusion that corruption is inevitable so as to work around that conclusion for solutions is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It removes the entire agency of communists who are currently within the struggle, agitating for the creation of a movement that is insulated in the first place. Fact of the matter is, if material conditions along with with the current organizational processes of leftist orgs in the now encourage or allow corruption, then the only solution is to change the internal working of these orgs and fashion the material conditions so that these things are greatly reduced, easily identifiable, and quickly addressed.

Normalizing mass abuse literacy and accountability processes within activist communities is one such effort that leftists can do to help that.

 No.996661

>>996479
Not him but I think you should read "The People’s Republic of Walmart" and "Towards a New Socialism".
Also check out "Project Cybersyn".

 No.996734

"Bureaucracy" will only die when the state dissolves.

 No.996752

>>996588
Yes they do, 'lol'

 No.996756

>>996545
Stalin created the material conditions for people like corn man to take over. Mao created the material conditions for the Dengoids to take over. By getting rid of anybody vocal with any vision who posed a threat to their control, leaving only the snakes in the grass.
Everybody gets on muh Tito about not leaving a proper successor and leading to the end of Yugoslavia, but nobody does the same to Stalin.
You can't hate Trump without hating Obama, the Bushes and the Clintons that led to him. You can't hate corn man without realizing Stalin paved the path for his rise.

 No.996765

>>996756
Malenkov was Stalin's successor. In an act of Stalinism destalinization Khrushchev backstabbed him and seized power, but in a non-tyrannical and wholesome way.

 No.997226

>>995641
>How effective were the Cultural Revolution and Stalin's purges in this regard?
Given how quickly the USSR turned to revisionism after Stalin's death, I'd say the purges weren't very effective at all. Ditto for China and Mao.

 No.997243

>>995641
In what context? At the beginning of the revolution? During some new Cold War?

 No.997731

>>995935
Anti stalinists were the ones who empowered the corrupt bureaucracy that killed the union.

 No.997738

>>996765
I agree, the political system of the USSR was must have been quite flawed if it allowed Khruschev's scheming to be effective, good criticism comrade.

 No.997759

>>997738
Of course it was flawed. This was a backwards state born in extreme hostility, a state whose industrial base had been virtually wiped out after the civil war, doing something that had never been done before. I don't know what more people would expect in that situation. It's actually amazing that they almost made it to the 21st century.

 No.997906

>>995641
By democratizing bureaucratic institutions

 No.1002005

>>995641
For real what was the issue with the movie? The graphic novel was great.

 No.1002171

>>997731
Precisely, the USSR buried Stalin's policies which were really just a continuation of Lenin's and in the last years in particular there was an endless furore and denunciation of Stalin. It's like Kaganovich said, they came for Stalin first because he was a soft target and eventually came for the entire system. By making Stalin the ultimate evil in the universe and symbol of communism the revisionists sought to blacken revolutionary communism.

 No.1027154

>>996121
>the only methods are freedom of information by design and radical sortition schemes
>and no, I don't just mean legislative branch, but also judicial and executive branches, especially courts and law enforcement

>concrete political forms should be arrived at in the process of political life, ie correlation between expertise and randomness

>ideal political model for proletariat as a class is a situation where there is no expertise required, where every person is replaceable, so there is no danger of some expert entrenching in their position due to specialized knowledge

>this is obviously an unfeasible ideal, but it is beneficial to keep it in mind in the back your head - proletarian state should aspire to this ideal, because approximating this ideal benefits only proletariat


>anyway, if the economic cost of introducing radical randomization into highly specialized fields may be still too high in the foreseeable future, benefits of introducing it into a political process greatly outweighs any associated costs


I wanna hear more ideas about this

 No.1029705

>>995641
What is up with the meme image?

 No.1030036

>>996121
>ideal political model for proletariat as a class is a situation where there is no expertise required, where every person is replaceable, so there is no danger of some expert entrenching in their position due to specialized knowledge
wouldn't they have to rely on the input of experts anyway? you're shifting power, influence, and experience away from policymakers and into the hands of people who can't be recalled, the same issue comes up with term limits in bougie democracy where lobbyists become much more influential

 No.1030061

sortition
short terms
instant callback


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