The Just Republic: In defense of the modocracy
TLDR: Plato’s republic is the ideal form of governance for an imageboard
>“For surely, Thrasymachus, it's injustice that produces factions, hatreds, and quarrels among themselves, and justice that produces unanimity and friendship. Isn't it so?… if it's the work of injustice, wherever it is, to implant hatred, then, when injustice comes into being, both among free men and slaves, will it not also cause them to hate one another and to form factions, and to be be unable to accomplish anything in common with one another?… Then does it come to light as possessing a power such that, wherever it comes into being, be it in a city, a clan, an army, or whatever else, it first of all makes that thing unable to accomplish anything together with itself due to faction and difference, and then it a makes that thing an enemy both to itself and to everything opposite and to the just? Isn't it so?… And then when it is in one man, I suppose it will do the same thing which it naturally accomplishes. First it will make him unable to act, because he is at faction and is not of one mind with himself, and, second, an enemy both to himself and to just men” - Plato, The Republic
As said previously in my note on recent events, the frequency of splits, the schizo-paranoia, it’s clear that there is something incredibly broken about how leftypol recruits staff and moderators, and this has almost lead to the death of leftypol several times. Many people here, including certain former moderators, have expressed the desire to have more “user input”, for user congresses. This is all utterly misguided. It’s fine to have a channel for user feedback, and to take suggestions, but the idea of LARPing a direct democracy, without accountability, in an anonymous or pseudo-anonymous medium just can’t work. The capitalist structure of ownership, of private property with regards to web domains and servers, really prevents this from being anything more than a democracy in name only. As we have seen, the only people with real power are those that control these resources, and everything else is really just play-acting. At worst, it just introduces an ability for loud retards to override the silent majority or right wing crossposters to manufacture consensus.
Instead of LARPing as an Athenian direct democracy, the moderators should model their form of governance after Athenian democracy’s greatest critic: Plato. If we must do a historical LARP, the form of governance that imageboards should take is that of a Platonic republic.
Plato’s “Republic”, often derided as a mere excuse for despotism, is really anything but. According to Plato, the object of governing is the well being of the governed in the same way that the object of medicine is the healing of the human body. The answer to the question of the definition of justice is answered indirectly, through the example of what a just society would be. A human being does not exist apart from a society. A just society is just a macro-version of a just man, and vice versa: a just man is a micro-version of a just society/state. There is a sort of social contract where people agree to act justly, in order to accomplish greater things than if they where constantly fighting, bickering, and trying to rip each other off.
Plato is often attacked for his advocacy of censorship. I suppose my answer to that is that the moderator IS a censor. That’s literally all they do. Every moderator, ever. It’s only a question of degree. The alternative is unlimited free speech, which no site, even 8chan itself, could sustain.
In Platos republic there are three groups: The artisans, or producers, the auxiliaries, a warrior/administrative class, and the guardians or governers who would rule society for it’s benefit.
>Until age 18, would-be guardians should be engaged in basic intellectual study and physical training, followed by two years of military training. However, a correction is then introduced where the study of gymnastics (martial arts) and warfare – 3 plus 2 years, respectively – are supplanted by philosophy for 5 years instead. Next, they receive ten years of mathematics until age 30, and then five years of dialectic(philosophy) training. Guardians then spend the next 15 years as leaders, trying to "lead people from the cave". Upon reaching 50, they are fully aware of the form of good, and totally mature and ready to lead.
Obviously, in this analogy, the guardians are the admins/mods/tech people, the auxiliaries are the lower ranked janitors, and the artisans are the anons.
>And they are always crowded around the shipowner himself, begging and doing every thing so that he'll turn the rudder over to them. And sometimes, if they fail at persuasion and other men succeed at it, they either kill the others or throw them out of the ship. Enchaining the noble shipowner with mandrake, drink, or something else, they rule the ship, using what's in it; and drinking and feasting, they sail as such men would be thought likely to sail. Besides this, they praise and call 'skilled sailor,' 'pilot,' and 'knower of the ship's business' the man who is clever at figuring out how they will get the rule, either by persuading or by forcing the shipowner, while the man who is not of this sort they blame as useless. - Plato, describing the coupists thousands of years in advance
Similar to the guardians of Platos republic, there needs to be a rigorous system for both vetting and training mods and technical staff.
Vetting: Mods need to build a mod application app. This would include a series of multiple choice questions designed to weed out candidates with BPD, narcissism, schizophrenia, and other harmful personality traits or psychological disorders. The second stage would include the candidate including some background info, such as a post they made for the janitors to check the post history, their ideology, general background, etc. If they pass these stages then they can start the training/probation period.
Training: a long period of probation/apprenticeship (not 15 years, but more like 4-6 months) where the new candidate is not allowed to vote on matters but is appointed a janitor with minimal power of a certain board and rotated throughout the boards periodically, probably starting on /b/, and being moved around from board to board, until they finally have janitor power on /leftypol/. After this they will be approved or disapproved by the current mods, either a simple majority, supermajority, or unanimous consent.
Only then should the person be admitted to the mod team.
This is nothing more than a simple cope (accompanied with the associated image of a fascist dictator no less)
The ironic part here is that in the republic representatives were still appointed by and choice by representatives In Athens.
The current existing hegemony of mods were appointed by, presumably, the old ownership of 8ch/leftypol/
All this comes across as is a petty rationalization to justify, ultimately, elitism. There is not even anything close to resembling a type of direct democracy. It's basically fascism except rather than one singular individual Admin (though that is very much still the case) It is just a single cabal of owners. Basically a board of directors running the site. Un-accountable to anyone. I have a hard time understanding how leftists can justify to themselves positions of authority spanning into the decades. That seems almost counter intuitive to me.
Stalin had the audacity to host show trials. and people still were given the capacity to vote in several other faucets of life.
The jannies here just rule with an iron fist. Anyone who dares to disagree with the fact that there might be any type of flaw in a system of unaccounted and unappointed system of leadership is silenced, gas light, and all around harassed. It's very cult like. In its behavior
The "modocracy" as it is so called is nothing more than an eternal larp Carried out by a bunch of childish "ML's."
judge dredd is a fascist dictator? really? I haven't read the comics but in both versions of the movie he's just a cop in a society with no justice system
every one of you is fucking retarded and should take an ice cold shower to wake up from your larp dream
ok so how should a site be run? 1 guy be in charge?
No, no, no, 8 guys should be in charge.
if 15 mods voting isn't democracy than a junta of 3 guys is even less of a democracy
But the junta established a democracy.
after backpeddling, yeah.
and what? And, first off its a solution looking for a problem. The split wasn't about user democracy it was about 1-2 autists wanting "power" and schizoism and then later they retconned "user democracy" into the whole point, confederacy-apologist tier revisionist history.
Whatever lies they say, the real reason for their split was a combination of mental illness and blatant power grabbing, and a sense of personal aggrievement pretending to be something principled. The just want to "own the ogres" and any overtures towards "user democracy" is based on that and no sort of principles.
Not that it matters because user democracy is unworkable anyway and 99% of users just wanna grill and have jannies shut the fuck up and delete spam.
As compared with 7 - 8 autists having power.
You all keep trying to flip the narrative around on the net and yet…..
Coma came on after the split and worked to establish a democracy and the other jannies from the junta capitulated. That is all that matters. The jannies on org seethed and coped and cried for weeks. You can't bitch about the junta establishing power when your jannies are the biggest power trippers of all willing to even fucking profile you. Keep cucking out for these fucking CIA operatives
>>10339>user democracy is unworkable and users just wanna grill
Totally debunked already. Learn to fucking think for yourself you pathetic worm.
every time you post this, my response is going to be the same: did i have any notes?
Pretty sure no, the notes were added to problem IPs. As always you are impeccable.
I will move to .net if they don't use post history to moderate.
Can you promise that?
>>10340>The jannies on org seethed and coped and cried for weeks
this whole thing has lasted like 1 week max>willing to even fucking profile you
all versions of the vichan software do that you retarded jogger did you really think the jannies on leftychan haven't or aren't still now looking at user IPs? Of course they are, its literally part of the moderation interface in the software, so to moderate at all they literally can't NOT look at it, not unless they make a change at the software level.>Keep cucking out for these fucking CIA operatives
the idea that the .org jannies are literal CIA agents is fucking deranged
. You can hate them, disagree with them but this is just insane. I mean you are actually and literally fucking DERANGED if you think that. Unless you actually have some fucking proof of this, then post it by all means
If you actually want to prove you are a non-unhinged individual why don't you reach out to the .org jannies and quash the beef and end the split, on reasonable terms instead of turning into a fucking Qboomer tier schizo who thinks everyone they have a petty beef with on the internet glows. You want to prove you are actually a well adjusted adult, why not do that?
Otherwise, log off, touch grass, take your anti-schizo pills and stop seething so unbelievably hard over losing control of a fucking underwater mongolian basket weaving forum.
This whole IP bullshit thing, including the probably doctored/fake screencaps which can’t be independently sourced, smells of FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) that certain individuals associated with another competing website want to spread, probably because they are pissed that their site is declining in usage.
This whole “IP” bullshit is a manufactured crisis, since as far as we know, every imageboard, and indeed, every website and social media platform in the world collects IP data, both at the server and application level, maybe with the exception of so-called “no log” VPNs (although half the time they are anyway).
An imageboard is anonymous forum. When someone makes a post, it is not associated with any account, let alone an account that requires email registration like mainstream “social media”. When a moderator bans someone, that person’s IP address goes into the database of banned users, and is compared to the IP of anyone trying to post from then on. If it is a match, the user is prevented from posting. Since imageboards don’t require an account to post, the IP address is the only way of identifying users from post to post (crudely). An end to retention of IP data would mean a de-facto end to all bans, and the only thing the moderators would be able to do is delete individual posts and threads.
But maybe they want to say that its ok for the software to retain IPs in the database, but not for individual mods to look and/or use them in a context of deciding who to ban. That is they have to decide on banning based on individual posts, not a user’s entire post history. This is an extremely bad idea, and would actually lead to more heavyhanded moderation, not less. If a mod can only judge a post without context, that means they can’t really distinguish between a regular user who is just shitposting, and an actual spammer or /pol/yp crossposter posting in bad faith. At that point they really only have two options: 1) treat all shitposts as serious, leading to more banning, or 2) allow spam/polbait on the basis that they may be a legitimate user shitposting, in which case the catalog will be filled with more spam and bait and degrade the quality of the site as a whole. I have a feeling the jannies of the other site prefer the second option.
Moderators using post history to judge whether to ban users was a relatively uncontroversial practice, used by, as far as we know, everyone including the current moderators of the other site, until the minute the split happened and now suddenly it’s indicative of some glowing conspiracy. It’s much better than the alternative.
The hysteria displayed by some of the crossposters shows either a profound ignorance of how technology works, or paranoid tendencies, or both. More likely it is just a bad faith attempt to spread FUD from a person/people who actually know better.
I’m sure that the chodes ITT will come up with a cogent response to this which actually addresses the practical problem of how to mod without IPs, and totally won’t resort to saying cope/seethe/dilate/ogre/you glow.
Pretty sure calling people CIA is said in jest in most cases, anon.
It's interesting that they used an image of Judge Dredd given what that character symbolizes. The artist behind Dredd grew up in Franco's Spain. A ruling group acting as a lens to focus the desires of the masses while lacking accountability is a familiar theme.
everything can be called jest to escape criticism like the monkeys in charge of the zoo that is leftychan do>it was all just a prank bro you dont understand it was a joke hahaha what are you autistic
its fucking pathetic every time and tries to dodge criticism which they dont allow on their site anyway
calling people pedos which is what they also do is also a fed tactic, anything liable to create mistrust, FUD and division is a potential fed tactic
Maybe you’re a huge faggot, seething chode
stupid comments deserve stupid responses. Seeing as how your comment was nothing but calling OP a faggot thats basically all you deserve.
Yes. I'm glad you disapprove of >>10364
I think this is where you tell me to "seethe" again, yes?
So, faced with the implications of the remark in >>10363
, to say nothing of invoking Plato, the only response is to derail into puerility.
This place is polluted.
You’re posting in bad faith. You’re shitting in the punch bowl. Simply kvetching about the image in OP and hyper focusing on that does absolutely nothing to address any argument given in OP let alone any of the responses here. It’s Radlib breadtube tier “you’re a fascist for posting a cartoon character I don’t like”. How about giving literally any argument other than applying Godwin’s law.
It actually does everything to address the argument and the attitude of the current oligarchy. They believe that they are the only true arbiters of the path forward for the board (when historically this obviously could be anything further from the truth) as they have stated here in plain text and they are willing to even go above and over the established set of rules to impose their, so called. justice on the board. Not out of anything nefarious, rather, they believe themselves to be the only true holders of what this power means in the first place and the direction of the board itself. Rather than, and, at the expense of the people themselves.
It's actually a story that has been replayed historically over and over again through out time. Nothing new. Bakunin was, actually, right in this regard.
The point isn't that "some imageboards, or all imageboards do this" The issue is that this image-board specifically is supposed to be held to a higher standard and that doing this data collection, and yes, it is data collection is a blatant violation of sed users pre held trust in the administration of the site. It's about the same as google getting caught harvesting peoples info and then trying to save face by saying "oh it's actually all for your own good!" It's bullshit and only the biggest retards and windows using fags buy into such bullshit.
you have not proven it comes at the expense of the people. In fact it comes at the benefit of the users since (if) it runs an imageboard better than its a better system. Prove that user democracy results in a better user experience
except no one was "caught" doing anything, its a nothingburger. It's literally the basic functionality of the site, which some schizos are trying to manufacture into something. you still haven't answered anything in that post, of how modding is possible at all without IP data
If you think the site is doing so well then I ask you to look at the recent 2 years of the constant splits, rise and fall of unique ip's etc etc etc. You are just coping.>>10519
No one said it is possible to do with out ip's you midwitt. I said that it is possible to do with out generating a profile of your user base. It's not nothing, it is a huge and serious violation of trust that users have with the staff. Anyone who actually understands the principles of FOSS understand these things. I bet you are posting this from a fucking macbook as we speak.
Free software has nothing to do with data privacy. and leftypols problems extend far beyond modding
>>10556>Anyone who actually understands the principles of FOSS understand these things.
I regularly contribute to a range of FOSS GPLv3 projects. I avoid proprietary software on purpose. If you use software that downloads or watches YouTube outside of a browser, you probably have LoC written by me on your computer right now.
Generating a user profile isn't simply not a violation of FOSS, it's utilizing a freedom guaranteed by FOSS
If short notes on IPs like that are used to keep track of spammers, ban-evaders and shitstirrers, then good. It's literally making a judgement based on the user's recent posts and writing it down for future reference instead of keeping it to themselves. Those notes weren't profiling, they were noting relevant issues to the current rules page (libs and nazis and rightoids are called 'guests', spammers raiders and ban evaders are probably rule violators, a few IPs were were tagged as not violating rules which would hopefully prevent false positives).
According to that /leftypol/ meta thread, bans now have the comment banned listed on the ban page. If anything, you have more
transparency over whether you've been banned for breaking a rule with a post or profiled based on history than before.
>I bet you are posting this from a fucking macbook as we speak.
Macbooks can run FOSS OSs and any other non-autist device already paid for a Windows license.
>>10567>Those notes weren't profiling
Oh?>It's literally making a judgement based on the user's recent posts and writing it down for future reference
That's exactly what a profile is.
>If short notes on IPs like that are used to keep track of spammers, ban-evaders and shitstirrers, then good.
Aside from the fact this is a chan and there will be no end of that sort of behavior, do you think cooking up your own flavour of Stasi is a good look? This is lending strong credibility to those long term accusations of strict discourse curation against the jannoids here.
And what's wrong with the Stasi faggot?
If you don't understand that the Stasi are held as an enduring symbol of all that was wrong with actually existing socialism, you may wish to reconsider your participation in communist struggle. By actively behaving in manners which evoke the memory of the Stasi you're thrusting weapons into your enemies' hands.
Of course, you might think a societyo overbearingly intrusive that you and your lover might be informing on each other to the state is a utopia. I assure you, you are a member of a vanishingly small minority of the population.
>>10567>I support FOSS but it's ok to act against the philosophy of FOSS because my niche Albanian basket weaving forum.
The absolute state of the cult.
It was a rhetorical question. There is nothing wrong with the Stasi.>you and your lover might be informing on each other
Newsflash: If you are informing on each other, you are not lovers. This is not how it works. It's not how anything works.
There was far less stasi and volkspolezei in the DDR than intelligence agents and cops in west germany, which was essentially a police state. The Cold war Germany situation demanded heavy police presence and surveilance. The communist east got by on far less than the west.
The intrusive questions on the paperwork of liberal states are not equivalent to engaging in psychological warfare on the civilian populationhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zersetzung
You're every bit as terrible as space_ if not worse. Enjoy your dying community and the pile of dirt you have inherited. You are all, literally, no better than Jacobin. No one won here accept your massively inflated egos.
Unique IPs: 22