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File: 1645568545381.jpg (37.65 KB, 550x300, img_0009-550x300-png.jpg)

 No.222222[View All]

This one's for our comrade Grover Furr.
NOT ONE CRIME
229 posts and 46 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.257450


 No.258241

File: 1654413691866.png (5.31 KB, 100x81, ClipboardImage.png)

NazMao flag

 No.259229

>>258241
*burp*

 No.259751

File: 1654598716562.jpg (1.64 MB, 3468x4624, 1654598704186.jpg)

Why, yes I have a chairman mao pendant I bought at the chinese grocery when I was drunk for two bucks, don't you?

 No.259760

>>259751
This rules. Did you talk about Mao drunk to the store owners? Did you call him a based retard?

 No.259762

>>259760
I was focused on the shitty ramen I bought tbh and the cashier was white but I remember explaining to my sister I was with why mao was a great dude

 No.259783

>>259762
is your sister a commie too

 No.259808

>>259751
Awesome. Would see stars if I just happened to come across that in a Chinese food's store lol

 No.260262

File: 1654647803815.png (1.16 MB, 1084x1080, ClipboardImage.png)

>>254511
>>254173
>>254160
>2012 reddit cope
LMAO

>>256301
J. Arch Getty and a handful of others can be called relatively reliable sources bu they'r not pro-Soviet per se. Furr is one of the only ones in the West that made dedicated efforts to translating and writing about the USSR and surrounding topics, Lenin-hat said it all in >>256464

>>256466
Given the failures in Germany, France and Poland, that had many regards better material grounds for a fully socialist revolution in the sense Marx intended compared to Russia, it isn't surprising.

 No.261267

Ummmmmmmmmmmm. Guys?? Did we just lose to the Infracels?????????? I don't feel so good………..

 No.261282

>>259751
I've got one of those Chairman Mao chest badges stuck to the wall next to my door to wish me good luck when I step outside to touch grass.

 No.261644

Guys grover furr is ally of the infracels fuck this racist chauvinist nazi

 No.261684

Grover Furr's dull propaganda is not even Bad History, it's no history at all.

Grover Furr is a neo-Stalinist professor who has published quite a few articled defending Stalin and denying his crimes.

His usual m. o. #1:

Skim through some marginal Stalinist source in Russian and absorb its main talking points.

Without however paying attention to detail.

Don't do the actual research, even about the basics.

Reproduce the resulting jumble for "Western" consumption.

Example: from "The “Official” Version of the Katyn Massacre Disproven? Discoveries at a German Mass Murder Site in Ukraine", Socialism and Democracy, 2013, vol. 27, issue 2, pp. 96-129:

The 1943 German report on Katyn states that the following item was found in one of the mass graves:

eine ovale Blechmarke unter den Asservaten vor, die folgende Angaben enthält T. K. UNKWD K. O. 9424 Stadt Ostaschkow

[…] probable English translation would be: Prison Kitchen, NKVD Directorate, Kalinin Oblast’ [prisoner, or cell, or badge number] 9 4 2 4 town of Ostashkov

None of the “transport lists” from the camp at Ostashkov were for transport to Katyn or anywhere near Smolensk. All these lists state that the Polish prisoners were sent to Kalinin. Therefore the person buried at Katyn who had this badge in his possession had been shipped to Kalinin. But, obviously, he was not shot there. The badge was unearthed at Katyn. Therefore, the owner of this badge was also shot at Katyn, or nearby

The "prison kitchen" thing comes straight from the Russian denial literature (actually T. K. means trudovaya koloniya, work colony), which is how we know where Furr got this "argument". Needless to say, Furr is deeply ignorant of the fact that POWs were sent from camp to camp, like the 112 people transferred from Ostashkov to Kozielsk on 19.11.1939. So literally none of Furr's conclusions follow.

His usual m. o. #2: if the evidence seems to support Stalin, just jump to conclusion without sufficient data or research.

The example above also belongs here, but here is another one, which is the thrust of the above article:

In 2011 and 2012 a joint Polish-Ukrainian archeological team partially excavated a mass execution site at the town of Volodymyr Volyns’kiy, Ukraine. Shell cases found in the burial pit prove that the executions there took place no earlier than 1941. In the burial pit were found the badges of two Polish policemen previously thought to have been murdered hundreds of miles away by the Soviets in April–May 1940. These discoveries cast serious doubt on the canonical, or “official,” version of the events known to history as the Katyn Massacre.

He then goes on and on about how these finds allegedly disprove the Soviet guilt for Katyn. Except… they don't. The badges were found not on the corpses but in the bulk layer with rubbish (household items etc.) above the corpses. The archival research showed that at least one of the policemen was detained in Volodymyr Volynski for weeks in 1939. Which means that his badge (and probably that of the other policeman, about whom less is known) was taken from him then, and when the Germans overtook the prison they eventually disposed of the useless inmates' belongings (still kept in the prison) in the burial area (Ubity v Kalinine, zakhoroneny v Mednom, 2019, vol. 1, pp. 79-81).

His usual m. o. #3: simply accept the Stalinist claims at face value while ignoring the documents undermining them.

E. g. he notoriously accepts the coerced testimonies for the Moscow show trials. The problem? He doesn't deal with most of the veritable mountain of evidence that these testimonies and the trials were staged.

Or, to continue with his Katyn article, he simply accepts the authenticity of the documents alleged to have been found by the Soviets in the graves, without addressing the fact that the "key" ones must be fake, to wit: the allegedly exhumed "documents" of Araszkiewicz and Lewandowski mention absolutely non-existent "ON" POW camps and the Poles in question as POWs later than the spring of 1940, yet we know that these camps never existed not only because there is not a single trace of them in the GUPVI archive (or any trace in real life), but because we have summary documents from the period in question listing all the groups of Polish POWs and the camps where they reside. No "ON" camps are mentioned, and the "missing" Polish POWs in question are listed as transferred to UNKVD in April-May 1940. So whatever happened to them, they were no longer POWs at the time these reports were filed, so the "found" "documents" cannot be authentic. And so, once again, nothing that Furr claims follows from these "documents" actually follows.

This is not history. Not even "bad history" per se. It's basically pure propaganda.

For more on Furr see my articles:

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2020/01/looking-for-katyn-lighthouses.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2007/03/and-now-for-something-not-completely.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2019/08/again-about-stalinist-deniers-yes.html

 No.261685

File: 1654898002758.gif (1.14 MB, 480x360, brap.gif)

>>261684
>2 year old reddit post

 No.261686

>>261685
Debunk it then

 No.261753

>>261684
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to post this.

 No.261788

File: 1654916961007.jpg (289.67 KB, 1600x916, FDR Katyn Massacre.jpg)

>>261686
>>261684
Truly this shitty reddit-spaced fallacious diatribe is an embodiment of Bad-Faith Discussion
>neo-stalinist
Not a real thing, Stalinism isn't even an advertised ideology
>who has published quite a few articled defending Stalin and denying his crimes
Sure anon, nice strawman representation totally not proving your obvious and extreme bias
>Skim through some marginal Stalinist source in Russian and absorb its main talking points. Without however paying attention to detail.
<making claim having no real evidence
Ok fag
>see my articles
<holocaustcontroversies
Yeah no
1 - this is very unlikely to be your site
2 - The entire "debunk" is just taking out of context quotes and only some of the citations and making statements of "dats rong!" and then providing very poorly cited ALSO out of context "information" that is then extrapolated as debunking the specifically cropped quotes being fallacied.
Your "first mo" attempt encapsulates this, taking a tiny excerpt completely out of context and completely lacking the citation or original Russian documents that Furr cites so that reading this article in a vaccum I have to take your word that Furr said this in this context that you present.
>Furr is deeply ignorant of the fact that POWs were sent from camp to camp
No he is not, you're not presenting the actual argument Furr is making, you're strawmanning one out of an excerpt
>"German documents say diss so its tru, but Soviet documents are icky and rong!"
LMAO this shit is liberal central, German documents are totally legit despite it being a fact that they regularly made shit up for PR, Katyn especially.
>The badges were found not on the corpses but in the bulk layer with rubbish (household items etc.) above the corpses. The archival research showed that at least one of the policemen was detained in Volodymyr Volynski for weeks in 1939. Which means that his badge (and probably that of the other policeman, about whom less is known) was taken from him then, and when the Germans overtook the prison they eventually disposed of the useless inmates' belongings (still kept in the prison) in the burial area
Except the Germans conveniently somehow knew to bury them in the same spot as the bodies and somehow did not discover said bodies until 1943, despite the badges being tossed there a year ago or more. Moreover the decay of the bodies and the presence of dated letters and personal effects that dated to after the Soviets left is evidence Furr goes into but is ignored by you. Even more importantly your source is an article made by the Memorial project of Russia, a site that is dedicated to creating scare-stories about the Gulag and has been caught repeatedly making things up and even presenting forged documents and being disproven multiple times, such as in regards to the "Serpantinka" myth that got popularized by ВДудь in his expose about Kolyma that got debunked by Tubus Show.
>simply accept the Stalinist claims at face value while ignoring the documents undermining them.
Nope the "coerced testimony" revisionism is not confirmed by any concrete evidence and multiple people that witnessed the trial including American Diplomat and non-Communist former Lawyer Joseph Davies, among other people, and this is further seen in the documented testimonies and in the face of those that had been wrongfully accused (such as Rokossovsky) holding strong and refusing to take blame for accusations levied by the Troika courts.
>we know that these camps never existed not only because there is not a single trace of them in the GUPVI archive (or any trace in real life), but because we have summary documents from the period in question listing all the groups of Polish POWs and the camps where they reside.
SO you claim yet you present no citations for us to check this nor a proper citation for us to see if Furr actually made this claim at all, or the context of such a citation if he had actually used it. Moreover you seem to forget the loss of documents and a dirge of fake documents on Polish POWs including those supposedly of the GUPVI. And unlike your dismissal of Furr, you cannot dismiss the trial of the CPSU and the reveal that the many secret documents about Katyn presented at the trial had been dismissed because they had been forgeries.
>nothing that Furr claims follows from these "documents" actually follows.
So you claim yet all you have demonstrated is cherry-picking and copy-pasta. Go fuck yourself Revisionist, Goebbels thanks you for your diligent propaganda.

>>261753
It's a copy-pasta from leftpol

 No.261869

Grover Furr is now infrared gang

 No.261944


 No.262009

Furr's positions are not supported whatsoever. Literally no major historians of the Purges – Getty, Fitzpatrick, Khlevniuk, etc. – believe that the Moscow Trials were fair or accurate. A quick search on JSTOR will reveal that Furr is neither published nor cited in any peer-reviewed Russian history journal in English, save for a single book review in the Russian History Review. So, not only do professional historians disagree with Furr, they almost universally ignore him as well. In fact the only relevant place he does appear is in a footnote in a paper by J. Arch Getty thanking him for certain information. This is important because Furr relies heavily on Getty and often insinuates that he and Getty have identical views. This, however, is false. For instance: through archival research in the Trotsky papers at Harvard, Getty discovered that Trotsky had connections with a "bloc" in 1932 but concludes that "Trotsky envisioned no 'terrorist' role for the bloc."1 Furr, on the other hand, proclaims that "Getty's discovery in the Trotsky archive corroborates the testimony of the Moscow Trial defendants."2 He further argues that evidence of this bloc's existence past 1932 and its terrorist activities in Trotsky's correspondence have, quite simply, been scrubbed or hidden from the archives.3

This brings us to our second point. Why is Grover Furr not taken seriously in academic Russian history? The answer that there is a concerted effort by professional historians and academic institutions to suppress the truth by falsifying evidence and marginalizing Furr is about as plausible as the claim Big Pharma is suppressing studies that prove herbal remedies cure cancer. The reason is much simpler: quite frankly, Furr's work is amateur and wouldn't even get a passing grade in a decently rigorous undergraduate course. It's laden with dubious argumentation and poor source evaluation.

To give a specific example, let's look at Furr's approach to the lack of non-Soviet sources corroborating or confirming the central charges of the Moscow Trials which pretty much all revolve around collaboration with foreign powers. Furr begins by noting that

In countries still extant it is normal to keep intelligence archives secret indefinitely. This is certainly the case in the USA. We suggest it is logical to suspect the same thing in the case of Germany and Japan.4

This rather conveniently ignores that not only is Nazi Germany no longer extant, but that many of the important government archives in Berlin were under the Soviet occupation zone in Berlin, and neither East German nor Soviet scholars who had access to such documents were known for their fondness for Trotskyists.5 He then goes on to note that there is a "great deal of evidence" that Tukhachevsky with collaborated the Germans – and, in the next sentence, admits that "we have only indirect confirmation of this from German archives" and only "somewhat more direct" from the Czech archives.6 He provides citations for neither "confirmation," nor is it clear what a "somewhat more direct" confirmation is compared to an "indirect" one. In another smoking gun, he brings up that "[r]umor, at least, of [the Moscow Trial defendants'] collaboration [with German General Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord] evidently survived in Hammerstein's family."7 He follows up on all this by saying that the lack of evidence doesn't matter anyway, because "no one should expect a conspiracy like this be documented anywhere, ever, much less in 'in archives.'"8 He cites in his favor the lack of documentation for "the successful conspiracy against Lavrentii Beria," which "must have involved at least half a dozen men." This explanation rather conveniently elides the fact that the coup against Beria involved a handful of people over the course of a couple months at most, as opposed to an alleged clandestine terrorist organization involving thousands of people that operated over years and collaborated with state-level actors. Given the fact we do in fact have documentation for clandestine terrorist organizations at this scale in other instances, it is a bit implausible that no documents exist for this particular case.

Furr, of course, then quickly says there are non-Soviet documents that confirm or corroborate the Moscow Trials charges! He cites four documents:

An admission by the Japanese Minister of War that they were collaborating with "oppositionists," cited in "Soviet Links Tokyo With 'Trotskyism'" in the New York Times, March 2 1937.9 A quick look at this article from the NYT archives reveals it is a dispatch from Vladivostok from the Tass News Agency made by Walter Duranty. Furr either didn't read this carefully or he's deliberately lying about its "non-Soviet" nature.

An "Arao telegram," which was "extant at least in 1962-1963 though never heard from since."10 Generally speaking it's considered bad form to cite texts whose existence is uncertain and whose contents unverifiable – not that he actually reproduces the text of the "telegram" anyway.

A document "in the Czech national archives," "corroborated by correspondence found in German archives."11 In the footnote he notes that "these documents have long been acknowledged by Western and Russian scholars" but neglects to actually tell us which documents these are. Once again, no text is reproduced.

A private admission by NKVD general Lyushkov that there were conspirators working with Tukhachevsky to collaborate with the Japanese military to "inflict defeat upon the Soviet military."12 He cites Alvin D. Coox's two-part article "The Lesser of Two Hells: NKVD General G.S. Lyushkov's Defection to Japan, 1938-1945" but fails to provide a page number (joy!). Nevertheless it appears to be based on a passage from the second part where Lyushkov lists Tukhachevsky as part of a faction in the Red Army which "favored a military putsch."13 Furr, however, neglects to note Coox himself is rather skeptical of taking Lyushov's statements at face value, noting they "reflect[ed] to a degree what his hosts must have wanted to hear."14 In effect, he's cherry-picked a statement from a very long article, much of which does not really support Furr's argument at all.

I could go on, but the whole book is like this – in fact, all his books are like this. He is sloppy with "citations" and cherrypicks constantly. He exhibits classic denialist and conspiracy theory tropes: all the real evidence is purged or missing and all the evidence to the contrary is forged or irrelevant. Lack of evidence is explained away as being part of the conspiracy. He relies on a sympathetic ear and an unwillingness to actually follow up on sources to be taken seriously by anybody.

1 J. Arch Getty, Origins of the Great Purges (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1987), 121

2 Grover Furr, Evidence of Leon Trotsky's Collaboration With Germany and Japan, 32

3 ibid, 38-39

4 ibid, 30

5 Although rather amusingly he suggests on the same page that Khrushchev possibly had the Soviet archives purged of references to Trotsky's guilt. Although in the mind of an unreconstructed Stalinist Khrushchev might be a Trotskyite, it is worth noting Trotsky was never rehabilitated by the Soviet government and that his literature remained banned until glasnost.

6 Furr, 30

7 ibid

8 ibid, 31

9 ibid, 32-33

10 ibid, 33

11 ibid

12 ibid

13 Alvin B Coox, "The Lesser of Two Hells: NKVD General G.S. Lyushov's Defection to Japan, 1938-1945, Part II," The Journal of Slavic Military Studies 11, no. 4 (1998), 85

14 Alvin B Coox, "The Lesser of Two Hells: NKVD General G.S. Lyushov's Defection to Japan, 1938-1945, Part I," The Journal of Slavic Military Studies 11, no. 3 (1998), 149

 No.262011

Grover Furr is to Stalin what David Irving is to Hitler.

 No.262015

>>222222
one of the best and most capable historians of the Stalin period without a question, he goes in to source his sources and even translate untranslated documents of the soviet government to english for the first time.
most of the arguments against this great historian is the same against Douglas Tottle, not actual question to his book, but trying to ruin his reputation to not act in his critics, with stuff like that he is not an actual period so it's invalid, but most of the historians they exalt are not expecialist to any soviet period and most of the time are mercenaries to the service of states enemy to the soviet union thus invalid, like Robert Conquest and Hannah Arendt.
recomendable to all.

 No.262322

File: 1655005892925.png (496.35 KB, 899x1519, ClipboardImage.png)

>>262009
>poorly cited, copy-pasta rant
Anon, just fuck off, it's boring deciphering this inane garbage
>A quick search on JSTOR
<The professor that decries cold war revisionism in a blatant opposition of the status quo of Porky propaganda is not published by Porky
who'd a thunk it possible!
>professional historians
Laughable, meaningless term. Robert Conquest and Timothy Snyder are called "professional historians" yet are not. Even if not in regards to Sovietology, Furr is a professional historian by that metric and if anything study of Medieval documentation and historiography is a lot harder than the much more documented 20th century.
> the only relevant place he does appear is in a footnote in a paper by J. Arch Getty thanking him for certain information
And considering Getty is one of the most respected in his field and has had not gone on rants attacking Furr and actually used information he provided directly is indication of much. Even more so Getty worked alongside Gabor and Rittersporn in collaboration with the information dug up by Victor Zmskov on the Gulags that the latter got directly from the archives, being among the very few to have had access to them.
>Furr relies heavily on Getty and often insinuates that he and Getty have identical views
No he does not, Getty is not a communist or pro-Stalin and Furr knows this, Furr specifically refers to Getty as making the same conclusions as he about the situation even as a person that does not have a bias for Stalin as Furr admits he does, this is specifically to provide a demonstration of Objectivity.
>Trotsky had connections with a "bloc" in 1932 but concludes that "Trotsky envisioned no 'terrorist' role for the bloc.
<that "Getty's discovery in the Trotsky archive corroborates the testimony of the Moscow Trial defendants."
These are not mutually exclusive, that is not the accusation levied against Trotsky's main and direct collaborators, that is the accusation levied against other defendants of the trials in regards to their collaboration with foreign powers such as relaying state secrets to military attaches about troop movements or directing state objects such as priority factories and making them targets for sabotage, something well recorded as happening and the animosity of outside countries was very open as if the Intervention did not make this clear.

So to conclude you are taking 2 statements and blatantly trying to tie them together, ignoring that the Moscow Trials are more than an accusation of Trotsky starting a bloc, and had served to address all the 5th Column efforts in the USSR at the time, in the military, party and economic sectors, that is the reason those had been the primary areas that had people affected.

I am not addressing the rest of your drivel because its the same false narrative that this has been - comparing 2 out of context things to make a false conclusion.

 No.262324

File: 1655006070400.mp4 (394.28 KB, 1100x720, CIAjin.mp4)

>>262011
>Grover Furr is to Stalin what David Irving is to Hitler
t.liberastFed

 No.262348

>>259783
I asked, she said she was an anarchist, just as well, I love her and so should you.

 No.262403

File: 1655021636195.png (270.77 KB, 474x474, ClipboardImage.png)

>>262348
I would love your sister, but long distance relationships tend to be tenuous. :(
srsly tho I suspect my sister is a feminist, im assuming lib. if only she had gone punk instead of goth no, actual goth, not that tripe that fetishists started calling goth last thursday

 No.262514

>>262348
can I marry her

 No.262631

>>262322
This is the kind of cognitive dissonance and schizophrenic tinfoil hat thinking you see with covid conspiracy theorists and cultists. You have debunked none of my points. It is clear that there is no point trying to address your drivel further because you've already come to a predetermined conclusion and won't budge no matter what evidence is put forward. This is your brain on ideology folks.

 No.262633

>>262324
And are the Feds in the room with you right now, anon? How fascinating. Make sure to use aluminium foil to counteract their electromagnetic rays.

 No.262637

>>262322
It's funny how /pol/-tards also post uncited photos of greentext gibberish as proof that the "holocaust was a myth".
I guess Stalin apologists and Nazis have a lot in common. Horseshoe theory confirmed!

 No.262641

>>262322
>No he does not, Getty is not a communist or pro-Stalin and Furr knows this, Furr specifically refers to Getty as making the same conclusions as he about the situation even as a person that does not have a bias for Stalin as Furr admits he does, this is specifically to provide a demonstration of Objectivity.

Source?

>something well recorded as happening and the animosity of outside countries was very open as if the Intervention did not make this clear.


source?

>to address all the 5th Column efforts in the USSR at the time


Source about the existence of this 5th column?

 No.262892

>>262641
>reddit spacing
>S-source
If you're not going to provide a real source I have no reason to bother, except to say I actually read Furr and his sources.
>Source about the existence of this 5th column
<imagine being this bad faith and implying imperial countries that actively or passively attacked the USSR politically and economically wouldn't employ sabotage.
LMAO GTFO.

>>262631
>>262633
>>262637
>imagine being so assmad that you respond 4 times to the same person and still have nothing to say
LMAO
>And are the Feds in the room
<D-deh CIA totally doesn't spread propaganda online and post in imageboards, pls forget the past decade of FBI and CIA agents getting caught posting on 4chan, 8ch and other sites!
Cope
>Make sure to use aluminium foil to counteract their electromagnetic rays.
<hurr I used de conspiritard meme, I'm smart!
You're too obvious fed
>This is the kind of cognitive dissonance and schizophrenic tinfoil hat thinking you see with covid conspiracy theorists and cultists
Oh so you're that projecting fedbot from a couple months ago, go back to your hole Big Pharmoid
>You have debunked none of my points
Sure I have, because your points are blatant manipulations that distort the context of the sources you use and poorly cite and demonstrate a clear agenda in creating a false narrative.
>/pol/-tards also post uncited photos of greentext
<Posting greentext screencaps on a chan is /pol/!
Lukr Moar redditor and you conveniently ignore the sources cited in said greentext, cry harder.
>as proof that the "holocaust was a myth"
<Hurr debunking anti-Soviet myths is the same as Holocaust denial! Muh Horshoe theory!
Yeah yeah yeah, Stalin is le evil like Hitler and blah blah blah, nobody cares. Go back, you failed your training.

 No.262900

File: 1655073278933.png (473.81 KB, 662x992, ClipboardImage.png)

>>262641
>Source about the existence of this 5th column?
<S-source about le Getty
Joseph Davies:
"[T]he best judgment seems to believe that in all probability there was a definite conspiracy in the making looking to a coup d’état by the army — not necessarily anti-Stalin, but antipolitical and antiparty, and that Stalin struck with characteristic speed, boldness and strength.’”
“Had a fine talk with Litvinov. I told him quite frankly the reactions in U.S. and Western Europe to the purges; and to the executions of the Red Army generals; that it definitely was bad… Litvinov was very frank. He stated that they had to ‘make sure’ through these purges that there was no treason left which could co-operate with Berlin or Tokyo; that someday the world would understand that what they had done was to protect the government from ‘menacing treason.’ In fact, he said they were doing the whole world a service in protecting themselves against the menace of Hitler and Nazi world domination, and thereby preserving the Soviet Union strong as a bulwark against the Nazi threat. That the world would appreciate what a very great man Stalin was.”
"The Attorney General [Vyshinsky] is a man of about 60 and is much like Homer Cummings; calm, dispassionate, intellectual, and able and wise. He conducted the treason trial in a manner that won my respect and admiration as a lawyer."
"From reports of the previous trials the present case differed in the opinion of many observers here in that there was practically unanimity of confessions here, also greater corroboration, and a more general opinion on the part of disinterested observers that an actual conspiracy was shown to exist against the Soviet government. With an interpreter at my side, I followed the testimony carefully."
"Naturally I must confess that I was predisposed against the credibility of the testimony of these defendants. The unanimity of their confessions, the fact of their long imprisonment with the possibility of duress and coercion extending to themselves or their families, all gave me grave doubts as to the reliability that could attach to their statements. Viewed objectively, however, and based upon my experience in the trial of cases and the application of the tests of credibility which past experience had afforded me, I arrived at the reluctant conclusion that the state had established its case, at least to the extent of proving the existence of a widespread conspiracy and plot among the political leaders against the Soviet government, and which under their statutes established the crimes set forth in the indictment…. I am still impressed with the many indications of credibility which obtained in the course of the testimony. To have assumed that this proceeding was invented and staged as a project of dramatic political fiction would be to presuppose the creative genius of a Shakespeare and the genius of a Belasco in stage production. The historical background and surrounding circumstances also lend credibility to the testimony. The reasoning which Sokolnikov and Radek applied in justification of their various activities and their hoped-for results were consistent with probability and entirely plausible."
"The lesser accused, who were merely tools, amplified in great circumstantial detail their chronicle of crime, and in many instances gave indications that what they were then stating was being uttered for the first time. These and other facts, which I saw, compelled the belief that there may have been much redundant embroidery in the testimony, but that the consistent vein of truth ran through the fabric, establishing a definite political conspiracy to overthrow the present government."
"On the face of the record in this case it would be difficult for me to conceive of any court, in any jurisdiction, doing other than adjudging the defendants guilty of violations of the law as set forth in the indictment and as defined by the statutes."
"I have talked to many, if not all, of the members of the Diplomatic Corps here and, with possibly one exception, they are all of the opinion that the proceedings established clearly the existence of a political plot and conspiracy to overthrow the government."
"The circumstantial detail, apparently at times surprising even to the prosecutor as well as to other defendants, which was brought out by the various accused, gave unintended corroboration to the gist of the charges. The manner of testifying of various accused and their bearing on the stand also had weight with me. The dispassionate, logical, detailed statement of Pyatakov and the impression of despairing candor, with which he gave it, carried conviction. So, too, with Sokolnikov. The old general, Muralov, was particularly impressive. He carried himself with a fine dignity and with the forthrightness of an old soldier. In his “last plea” he said:… 'I refuse counsel and I refuse to speak in my defense because I am used to defending myself with good weapons and attacking with good weapons. I have no good weapons with which to defend myself…. I don’t dare blame anyone for this; I, myself, am to blame. This is my difficulty. This is my misfortune….'"

Also

“There are increasing signs the Russian trials are not faked, but that there is a plot among those who look upon Stalin as a stupid reactionary who has betrayed the ideas of the revolution.” –Comrade Einstein speaking against critics of the trials of traitors within the Communist Party of the Soviet Union.

 No.263053

>>262892
>>262892
So no source then? 😂

 No.263056

>>262900
BAHAHAHA
I’m unsure if you’re trolling or just genuinely retarded. That’s the only source you could find LMAO OH NONONO NOT DAVIES 😂

Charles Bohlen:

“Ambassador Davies was not noted for an acute understanding of the Soviet system, and he had an unfortunate tendency to take what was presented at the trial as the honest and gospel truth. I still blush when I think of some of the telegrams he sent to the State Department about the trial.(p.51)
I can only guess at the motivation for his reporting. He ardently desired to make a success of a pro-Soviet line and was probably reflecting the views of some of Roosevelt's advisors to enhance his political standing at home.(p.52)”

Groverfags are something else

 No.263058

>>263056
Charles E. Bohlen (1973) Witness to History, New York: Norton.

Career diplomat who served with Davies in Moscow

 No.263945

>>263056
>>263058
>U-ur retarded
Projection machine? Meet Mirror.
>an excerpt making a unfounded, unexplained claim that "he didn't understand and totally just repeated Roosevelt"
A random, very short excerpt ignoring that, until the War, Roosevelt made his campaign on the basis of moderate social democracy, and in doing so prevented socialist uprising in the USA as he himself stated. This speaks of much considering that the USA has forever been a geopolitical opponent of the USSR. Bohlen's claim boils down to "He's wrong because he wuz pro-commie" despite Davies repeatedly being very reluctant to buy into the Soviet line and being very skeptical of the USSR in general, an opinion that made him hesitate to take the position of Diplomat initially, as he, a libertarian and non-communist upperclass man did not have many sympathies for "gommies".
I find it interesting that the book you refer to is from the 70s, decades after, and during the height of the Cold War, given the mainstream literature on the USSR of the time consisted of anti-communist scare-stories and highly opinionated "memoirs" following a carefully mandated narrative, I have no reason to believe this attack on Davies as anything but character assassination to counter leftists bringing up his memoirs.

The problem is that Davies' narrative is backed by many, MANY other sources and historians. So to summarize your post is nothing but attacking the source and not addressing the argument, not that you do anything other than that to begin with. Keep

>>263053
>No source then
<N-no u!
You forgot your faggot flag

 No.264184

>>263945

I have no reason to believe this attack on Charles Bohlen as anything but character assassination to counter leftists critiquing Davies.

Right so we have two US diplomats giving contradictory opinions on the validity of the Moscow Trials. A classic he said she said. Doesn’t seem to be anything further from this line of questioning.

So would you have any other sources to justify your claim or is Davies all you got 😂

Kind regards.

 No.266851

>>264184
>reddit spacing
>emojis
>"N-no U"
>forgotten flag
Cope harder

>A classic he said she said

Nope. One demonstration is a thorough explanation of the Trials, the other is just saying 'N-no he'z rong and totally lieks de gommies".

Keep your snide trash to yourself, thanks.

 No.268325

>>266851
>reddit spacing
how about you go to space and blow your brains out?

imageboardcel 🤣

 No.269070

>>233157
>Now I’m signin’ treaties w/ Ribbentrop
>just like the Allies


ftfy

 No.269682

If you think about it, Stalin did nothing wrong like he did nothing right, he's just a man making his life as it went. He was the cog people who hate or love him want to shine a light on, but a cog nonetheless. Let's be a good human bravely saying death and suffering are bad, but now imagine you need to govern a country against another power that literally wants to exterminate everyone of your population, you didn't expect that so soon because you're a little stupid, and petty and you generally suck. But what about it? You made it, you fought back, and the new world order was shaped after all that. You're the general secretary, even if you manipulated the higher orders of the communist party while killing the majority of whatever opponents could come in your way, there's nothing now. You tried to assassinate Tito a few times but it didn't work out, and you're so afraid of death that you've stopped because of the fear a simple telegram instigated in you. You killed or made people hide so much that the next guy after you was Khrushchev. You made so much about you, and you pushed so many of the capable people, that we got Khrushchev, that we got a fucking thread about a crazy English teacher who is still absolutely and objectively respectable for his capacity for troll; but a cook still.

 No.269960

Highest testosterone historian

 No.271635

>>222222
I'm gonna be deleting stupid incel threads, sex complaining threads, soy threads and so on, until board quality improves. Fair warning.

 No.271672

>>271635
Incel threads are made by people from 9chan's /leftcel/ btw.

 No.271673

>>271635
Has there been a vote on that?

 No.271995

>>271635
mods are the lowest quality posters on this website, I don't know if you're the best person to decide

 No.272044

>>271672
Probably.

>>271673
We discussed it and nobody objects.

>>271995
Sorry you feel that way.

 No.272323

>>271635
What took you so long?

 No.272515

>>272323
don't ask stupid questions, just send reports


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