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 No.269144

>inb4 TERF

I dunno man, I'm trying to be objective and I genuinely am willing to be corrected but I struggle to believe the subject isn't true. I know drag queens and similar phenomena have been a thing for a long time, but I'm talking about the bizarro X-genders, "non-binaries", they/thems. I'm sure I'm coming off as harsh or whatever, but I really do not see this as possible without the internet creating forums and echochambers for confused young people (probably suffering from depression and other ailments) to try and rationalize their condition.

It comes off as arbitrary, like Victorian era social constructs, the solution for alienation and depression in the First World was apparently to create a completely new realm of gender identities, not based on some kind of old cultural in-between gender that exists in places like India or Thailand, but rather on the social science of teenagers on the internet.

Again, I'm not trying to attack anybody, but I'm curious if /siberia/ think's I'm wrong, or maybe right

 No.269147

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retard

 No.269148

No one is gonna remember this in 50 years

 No.269153

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 No.269155

>>269153
I love watching troons appropriate various historical figures. It's like the Mormons baptizing dead non-Mormons, but woke.

 No.269158

>>269155
i'm not trans, i'm just showing that trans people existed before le current year.

 No.269160

>>269147
>>269153
>looking at shit that happened 100+ years ago
>a statistical anomaly, basically.
>obviously, this is exactly like what is happening now
yuppie brain lmao

 No.269161

>>269155
and i'm not appropriating historical figures either. these people i've shown so far are all mainly notable only for being trans (jorgenseon, cashier, lobdell, herbert) or nonbinary (public universal friend)

 No.269163

>>269144
one of those trump transhumanists who looks like women, but its hard to call someone like Chris chan who barely attempts to pass, as female.

 No.269164

Nah. Trans aren't a "youth fad".
They do exist in history.
It just wasn't talked about as much.
I mean, we had eunuchs.
Priests would castrate prepubescent males to retain their juvenile characteristics.
We also had Nazis doing experiments on artificial hormones on girls to make them muscleheads.

Everything that's memes now has a place in the past.

 No.269168

File: 1656024399488.mp4 (197.58 KB, 628x472, dar.mp4)

As far as calling non-binary something that only exists in an weird internet echo chamber, yeah, completely wrong.

Many non-western cultures historically diverged from the gender binary, including Mesopotamians, Indic cultures, parts of Arabia, old Israel, and native Hawaiians and Tahitians.
Quick intro: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender [article also includes 4th and 5th]
The gender binary is a social construct and a very extreme dynamic that doesn't cover all the people in society in a constructive way. Phenomena like intersex peoples are not new to society, for one example.

 No.269169

>>269160
>makes thread to get mad about trans people
>claim it's a fad
>shown it isn't

I'm sorry they live rent free in your head. if you don't want people talking about them in your presence you could start by not bringing them up in the first place.

>yuppie brain.


i'm neither young, nor urban, nor professional. nor am i trans. i'm working class, cisgender, and heterosexual. stay mad.

>obviously a statistical anomaly


a group of people being statistically uncommon doesn't make them a "fad". I think it's disingenuous also to pretend there isn't historically material reasons trans people didn't become noticed until recent history. The institute fur sexualwissencraft which was burned down by the nazis was the first institute to even attempt to study transgender people. For most of history being trans made you relegated to clergy or some kind of other celibate role. You weren't really in a position to express your ideas. Maybe the reason it's hard to notice these people in history is because historically, they weren't allowed to express themselves the way they wanted to.

 No.269176

>>269163
gender identity is in the head of the person. their failure to pass well enough to make your dick hard isn't the measuring stick of whether they're what they say they are. also a trans woman will never be biologically female, barring some kind of miraculous technology to change their chromosomes and give them functioning sex organs. Most of them don't dispute that, though there is a lack of patience in a lot of conversations about this. the categories "trans woman" and "cis woman" are separate for a reason. One is a woman biologically. The other is a woman socially, in terms of gender identity and expression. The gender is the social role. Some people simply choose social roles they were not assigned at birth. Whether they "pass" good enough for you is an entirely different question

 No.269177

>they/thems
Warm take: they/them is just plain convenient. I use ungendered language unless I have a specific reason to acknowledge gender, because it's an unnecessary complication in the English language.

 No.269178

>>269177
> it's an unnecessary complication in the English language.

ironically it has been done away with in English more than in other languages, where every last noun has an arbitrary gender

 No.269179

>>269177
I don't know why people pretend it's never used to talk about a single person, but it's really fucking confusing when referring to a they/them in relation to their interaction with a group. For a good example it comes up every single time Ezra Miller is discussed.

 No.269180

This, but replace trans with socialism and American internet with German social cirles.

Social change has to start with a subculture. Who cares if the American internet takes a particular interest in incubating it. The western internet has often been a force of progressivism so it was in fact most likely to happen there in this age, but no, it's clearly not the exclusive product of them as shown in proof by contradiction in this thread.

 No.269181

>>269176
/leftypol/ taught me women don't exist because you can't define them

men might exist I haven't heard enough arguments on that matter though.

 No.269182

I'll admit, I don't think I could handle they/them pussy.

 No.269183

>>269178
Sure. Fucking french being one example where sometimes a clothing item worn by [gender] is [opposite gender]. It's completely silly. Oh no, did you just assume my shirt's gender?!?

 No.269184

>>269176
>gender identity is in the head of the person.
Then why is "passing" such a big deal to transhumanists? If gender is entirely mental then why care what your body looks like?

 No.269185

this place is the fuckin pits

 No.269188

>>269144
Not really sure how it isn't immediately obvious to you that the internet simply uncovered an existing phenomena by its 'material conditions' of being a facilitator of communication between a minority of people with similar attributes and with out respect to the physical location and body.

 No.269196

>>269184

>Then why is "passing" such a big deal to transhumanists?


i honestly don't know. I would imagine it would have something to do with gender being a combination of how they feel about themselves and the cultural norms imposed by society. Society says women wear dresses and makeup so trans women wear dresses and makeup even if they can't give birth. but that's probably half of it. try asking someone who's trans. they probably have a better answer than me.

> If gender is entirely mental then why care what your body looks like?


it's not entirely mental. it's a socially constructed role that is correlated with sex, but not caused by sex. The male sex has the penis and the testicles. the female sex has the vulva and the uterus and the ovaries. The male sex has vestigial nipples. The female sex has functional nipples. There are obvious biological differences, that are then codified into roles. Males hunt. Women cook. Men kill. WOmen heal. Etc. These aren't as immutable as the biological traits. Some people try to break them. In modernity we are focused on things besides survival because we have productive surpluses. Men can stop hunting. Women can stop cooking. People can try out different social roles. Some of these social roles happen to be genders. People who go for the "opposite" gender role are called trans gender. I don't know what else to tell you.

 No.269200

>>269185
>yes i will enter a shit thread that is clearly going to be a shit thread from the op and complain about it!
why masochise?

 No.269211

>>269184
>>269196
>Then why is "passing" such a big deal
I have no experience nor expertise but it seems within the trans persons interest to have other people intuitively recognize their preferred gender without being questioned all the time. Self-image based on gender norms like you mentioned probably plays a part too but just being socially accepted is probably what a lot of them want.
Could also be plain and simple conventional sexual attractiveness. I dunno.

As far as ">gender identity is in the head of the person", I'd say it's in the head of each person. I can identify you differently to what you identify as, not even just gender, anything social like 'cool' or 'rich'.

 No.269219

>>269200
it doesn't begin nor end with this thread and you know it

 No.269228

>>269168
>Phenomena like intersex peoples are not new to society, for one example.
Reminder that they actually did try testing people's chromosomes for sports but stopped partly because it was found not to be reliable due to the prevalence of intersex people whose chromosomes don't match their biological sex differentiation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_in_sports#Chromosome_testing

Most relevant part from note 13 http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/OlympicGenderTesting.html
>Until the last decade, this remained the standard for gender verification, notwithstanding that by the mid-1970s, the test was discarded by medical professionals as technically unreliable. More importantly, the test detected athletes who were unassailably feminine but who happened to have an XY chromosomal pattern. Many of these individuals had variants of androgen resistance, either complete or partial – in which case, they are naturally resistant to the strength-promoting qualities of testosterone. Others had variants of XY gonadal dysgenesis.[7] Ironically, the sex chromatin test would have permitted recognized males with an XXY karyotype, or Klinefelter's syndrome, and XX males, who have a portion of the testicular determining gene (SRY) transposed onto the X chromosome, to compete.[1,2]

 No.269230

From the 1st century for example we have Philo, a Jewish philosopher of Alexandria, who wrote:
"Expending every possible care on their outward adornment, they are not ashamed even to employ every device to change artificially their nature as men into women … Some of them … craving a complete transformation into women, they have amputated their generative members."

Also from the 1st century there's an account from the Roman poet Manilius, who wrote:
"These (persons) will ever be giving thought to their bedizement and becoming appearance; to curl the hair and lay it in waving ripples … to polish the shaggy limbs … Yea! and to hate the very sight of (themselves as) a man, and long for arms without growth of hair. Woman's robes they wear … (their) steps broken to an effeminate gait …"

https://books.google.com/books?id=jiJMyBGmEkQC&pg=PA5
https://books.google.com/books?id=reMgCwAAQBAJ&pg=PP207

 No.269242

>>269144
>almost exclusively
no. did the internet give rise to more trans people? yeah, probably. higher communicative flow, more niche ideology (political, media, sexual, personal, etc.). if you want a more close-fit "cause for trans people", its the spread of gender ideology as a whole, including traditional gender ideology.
(purely anecdotal conjecture) I may be an outlier, but I became non-binary/agender and homosexual without the help of any kind of 'queer hugbox'.

 No.269279

>>269168
>It comes off as arbitrary, like Victorian era social constructs, the solution for alienation and depression in the First World was apparently to create a completely new realm of gender identities, not based on some kind of old cultural in-between gender that exists in places like India or Thailand, but rather on the social science of teenagers on the internet.


so did you just choose to ignore this part, or?

 No.269281

>>269169
That guy isn't OP, I am, and I didn't make a thread to get "made about trans people", I have genuine mixed feelings about these people and I wanted to voice them and have my opinion challenged.

 No.269353

Is the implication here that it would somehow be better or more authentic if nonbinary people all called themselves hijra or two-spirit and tried to revive genders from the past? All gender is just labels we put on ways to dress, talk, walk and make up ones hair, why does it have to have precedent? All contemporary culture is a product of the internet because we live in an internet age and people experience social reality and interaction through it, so yes all gender as such is a product of the internet today. That doesn't make it any more or less real, or good or bad.

 No.269387

im trooning out in p*land in a reactionary family if that helps
i think you may be a troomer as well, since transhumanists are usually annoying faggots before transition op


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