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Clinchwork, throws, submissions, whatever, time and time and again, wrestling has proven itself to be both exhausting compared to striking, less reliable, and less efficient—and I have proof. Wrestling is dangerous for any situation involving multiple opponents (so like nearly all street fights), it exposes the tackler to elbow strikes/knee strikes/dirty boxing, it’s far more exhausting to keep someone on the ground than ordinarily striking at them making it unviable for multi fights (you have to use more of your body weight in groundwork), god forbid you’re wrestling on pavement or really any hard surface, god forbid you’re wrestling on any surface with mud and dirt that can get into your face, it’s even worse than striking in environments with a lot of environmental clutter given how much it restricts your own movement and field of vision, *learning how to wrestle to begin with is also exceptionally harder and more expensive to train than striking and footwork*
, I could keep going.
There’s a reason why the best fighters in the mma scene are usually strikers and why exceptions like Islam and fraud jones aren’t the rule. Clinchwork just has too many problems and ultimately it’s used most often (horribly, most people including cops are awful at clinchwork and rely on evolutionary instincts to figure it out) by people unable to throw a kick or a pinch without tripping over themselves—so most people or at least weaker ones. All brawns and no brain.

I only really ever liked pro wrestling anyways

>>685159
Yeah. I wish it was more than just a sport, but there’s so many caveats that make wrestling legitimately unviable at high level mma (at least for people that can be bothered to pay attention to rules and not cheat when losing like jones)

>>685158
I don't like MMA, I like the idea but I don't like it as a sport, whenever they start wrestling on the ground I lose interest, I much prefer boxing

>>685164
Just watch kickboxing or Muay Thai tournaments—or just avoid the ufc in particular those guys suck. You’ll find clinchwork without the amateurish ground work or fighters trying to swat off each others punches by extending their arms and pulling guard

Wrong. Wrestling is the greatest skill check in fighting.
>Clinchwork, throws, submissions, whatever, time and time and again, wrestling has proven itself to be both exhausting compared to striking, less reliable, and less efficient—and I have proof.
Wrong. Efficient wrestling is not tiring. Striking is more tiring if you are being countered correctly. Efficient wrestling can be witnessed in any good fighter. If wrestling wasn't reliable, then it wouldn't be so prevalent in fighting.
>Wrestling is dangerous for any situation involving multiple opponents
Wrong. Wrestling is not suicidally shooting for doubles on concrete against multiple people. Wrestling allows immense defense. Striking is equally as useless against multiple attackers.
>it exposes the tackler to elbow strikes/knee strikes/dirty boxing,
Wrong. Good fighters set up their shots and eliminate the possibility of effective counterplay.
>it’s far more exhausting to keep someone on the ground than ordinarily striking at them
Wrong. Dropping someone on their head and breaking their neck is far more efficient than trading blows and hoping for lucky knockout. Having top control is essentially a victory. Efficient wrestling drains the opponent with minimal cost.
>god forbid you’re wrestling on pavement or really any hard surface
Wrong. Hard surfaces make wrestling exponentially more effective. Hard surfaces do not make striking more effective, just more dangerous.
>god forbid you’re wrestling on any surface with mud and dirt that can get into your face, it’s even worse than striking in environments with a lot of environmental clutter given how much it restricts your own movement and field of vision,
Wrong. Suffocating someone in mud or dirt is valid wrestling tactic.
>it’s even worse than striking in environments with a lot of environmental clutter given how much it restricts your own movement and field of vision,
Wrong. Striking under such conditions becomes less effective, but wrestling becomes more effective.
>learning how to wrestle to begin with is also exceptionally harder and more expensive to train than striking and footwork
Wrong. Wrestling is free in ameriKKKan high schools.
>There’s a reason why the best fighters in the mma scene are usually strikers and why exceptions like Islam and fraud jones aren’t the rule.
Wrong. Wrestlers dominate fighting.
>Clinchwork just has too many problems and ultimately it’s used most often (horribly, most people including cops are awful at clinchwork and rely on evolutionary instincts to figure it out) by people unable to throw a kick or a pinch without tripping over themselves—so most people or at least weaker ones. All brawns and no brain.
Wrong. Bad grappling is bad. Good grappling is deadly. Wrestling is the highest autism score mode of fighting. Chain wrestling. Torque and leverage. Center of mass and balance. Friction and ground reaction force. Momentum and angular momentum. Energy transfer and dissipation. Biomechanics and kinetic chains. Newton's laws.

File: 1751768368784.mp4 (19.58 MB, 1080x1920, red_vid_1750901265.mp4)

>>685187
>Wrong. Efficient wrestling is not tiring
This is just blatantly wrong unless you think anyone is going to be perfectly hitting takedowns into submission attempts 100%. Not even Islam is that good.
>if wrestling wasn't reliable, then it wouldn't be so prevalent in fighting
It literally isn’t not even in the ufc unless you think women pulling each others hair in street fights qualifies as wrestling.
>Wrong. Good fighters set up their shots and eliminate the possibility of effective counterplay.
Ah yes, thank god fraud jones showed us this in the match I posted in the OP where he blocked so many of Chael’s punches with his face and body.
>Wrong. Dropping someone on their head and breaking their neck is far more efficient than trading blows and hoping for lucky knockout. Having top control is essentially a victory. Efficient wrestling drains the opponent with minimal cost.
Yeah assuming you can actually see their neck and your opponent isn’t smart enough to land on any other part of their body
>Wrong. Hard surfaces make wrestling exponentially more effective.
Do it retard. Go be tough and wrestle a cop on solid pavement. I hope you land on your cranium and knock yourself out first and give the pig an easy win.
>Wrong. Striking under such conditions becomes less effective, but wrestling becomes more effective.
Thank you sensei. I will ignore what short punches, gut punches, knee strikes, and elbow strikes are in favour of slamming my ass into walls and clutter while my opponent can use all those options.
>Wrong. Wrestling is free in ameriKKKan high schools.
This argument is so stupid and flawed it’s not even worth making fun of
>Wrong. Wrestlers dominate fighting.
I’ll believe that when the top ufc fighters aren’t all strikers with light backgrounds in basic ground work. Islam vs Izzy being as close and favoured to Izzy as it was was hysterical for a guy that dedicated so much of his life to ground work compared to a guy that barely did any at all.
>Wrong. Bad grappling is bad. Good grappling is deadly
Yeah so is a direct kick to your knees or a basic jab to the noggin. The latter two of which don’t require me to spend months to years learning situational techniques I can only practice with trained and educated instructors that I can only occasionally pull off in specific contexts.


Cope all you want moron. I haven’t even brought up clinch counters and ukemi fall break techniques that make your worthless grabbing straight up counterproductive. Clinchwork is for amateurs and faggots that can’t strike or can’t think of better ideas over how to fight. Good grapplers are rare because the art is legitimately hard to learn and doesn’t have many places where it can be picked up and even then the art is too context specific to ever be useful in real world scenarios. If this wasn’t true, cops wouldn’t rely as much on tasers, gadgets, crowding on individuals, guns, or just striking at people ordinarily compared to your clinchwork your glorifying.

>>685208
>This is just blatantly wrong unless you think anyone is going to be perfectly hitting takedowns into submission attempts 100%. Not even Islam is that good.
Wrong. No striker lands every strike. A non-wrestling weakling like yourself has no TDD and is probably butthurt because you were dropped on your head too many times to understand basic fighting. Wrestling's efficiency and effectiveness come from control. Khabib can miss a shot, but chain wrestling and control allow him to still capitalize from missed shots in a way a missed strike could never achieve.
>It literally isn’t not even in the ufc unless you think women pulling each others hair in street fights qualifies as wrestling.
Wrong, dumbass. Wrestling is seen everywhere in actual fighting, and hair control is a banned grappling technique due to its effectiveness and lack of counterplay.
>Ah yes, thank god fraud jones showed us this in the match I posted in the OP where he blocked so many of Chael’s punches with his face and body.
Wrong. You cherry-pick a fight, which still proves your dumbass wrong. Jon Jones won that fight by outgrappling Chael, a D1 wrestler. Chael's strikes didn't do jack shit. This match demonstrates the dominance of wrestling.
>Yeah assuming you can actually see their neck and your opponent isn’t smart enough to land on any other part of their body
Wrong. You don't need the perfect takedown to end someone. Attaining top control alone wins the fight.
>Do it retard. Go be tough and wrestle a cop on solid pavement. I hope you land on your cranium and knock yourself out first and give the pig an easy win.
If the cop is less skilled in grappling, the concrete becomes my tool and his liability.
>Thank you sensei. I will ignore what short punches, gut punches, knee strikes, and elbow strikes are in favour of slamming my ass into walls and clutter while my opponent can use all those options.
Your striking won't do shit in an enclosed space. Every wall and hard surface is an asset to the grappler, yet a detriment to the striker. Grappling dominates in prison cells.
>This argument is so stupid and flawed it’s not even worth making fun of
Cope. Show some humility and admit that any D1 wrestler will cave your fucking skull in in a real fight, nullifying every second of your pointless striking training.
>I’ll believe that when the top ufc fighters aren’t all strikers with light backgrounds in basic ground work. Islam vs Izzy being as close and favoured to Izzy as it was was hysterical for a guy that dedicated so much of his life to ground work compared to a guy that barely did any at all.
Wrong. Strikers without grappling always lose embarrassingly. TDD is not enough to beat a champion.
>Yeah so is a direct kick to your knees or a basic jab to the noggin. The latter two of which don’t require me to spend months to years learning situational techniques I can only practice with trained and educated instructors that I can only occasionally pull off in specific contexts.
Wrong. Only an untrained dumbass who cannot fight would type all that shit. Wrestling is useful in any context. Your untrained strikes are countered easily. A high school wrestler would actually murder you.
>Cope all you want moron. I haven’t even brought up clinch counters and ukemi fall break techniques that make your worthless grabbing straight up counterproductive. Clinchwork is for amateurs and faggots that can’t strike or can’t think of better ideas over how to fight. Good grapplers are rare because the art is legitimately hard to learn and doesn’t have many places where it can be picked up and even then the art is too context specific to ever be useful in real world scenarios. If this wasn’t true, cops wouldn’t rely as much on tasers, gadgets, crowding on individuals, guns, or just striking at people ordinarily compared to your clinchwork your glorifying.
Ukemi may break a fall and save your spine from being broken, but it won't do jack shit once your stupid, untrained ass gives up top control. You will gas out and have your neck broken anyways. Good grappling is universal to good fighting. Cops use grappling all the time. You are a dumbass.

>>685267
>>685208
>>685187
i'd rather kms than let one of my internet debates turn into these recursively growing responses of every single point the other person made

>>685272
You can just reply point-by-point without the excessive quoting. That's what I used to do back when I still wasted my time talking with retards.

Great. Just what we need to reinvigorate an obscure discussion board. Increase the PPH. A discussion about what martial arts really work. Nothing will get agreed upon. But we'll get more blowhards opening than in a marc mac young cloning facility.
It all goes in waves.
>traditional karate, judo , wrestling
>reality based self defense pundits say it won't work in a real fight
<try to grab the knife arm that'll getcha killed in a real knife fight
>a few people rediscover grappling


Craig Douglas / "southnarc"
https://youtu.be/CTwH-PS9ydM?si=TUX6K1J790mSWz5Y

>>685267
>Wrong. No striker lands every strike
Yeah and not every grab attempt doesn’t result in the defender immediately dodging out of it—especially when you have morons telegraphing clinch attempts by literally pouncing on their opponent.
<Wrestling's efficiency and effectiveness come from control.
No shit, you think I and no one else knows this? The problem I have with wrestling specifically is if control is what’s wanted because you can’t have that in multi fights or in fights where knockouts and lethality is needed more than submission—which is most of them—and grappling to lead into a strike is objectively slower than just striking someone head on.
<Khabib can miss a shot, but chain wrestling and control allow him to still capitalize from missed shots in a way a missed strike could never achieve
Yeah assuming he doesn’t get his head struck trying to like the many times that CTE farmer and other grappling specialists have had to deal with in the mma scene for years.
>Wrong, dumbass. Wrestling is seen everywhere in actual fighting, and hair control is a banned grappling technique due to its effectiveness and lack of counterplay.
I think you’re confusing hair pulling, “the helicopter” (it’s just flailing and dropping guard simultaneously due to lack of training) and attempting to “catch and opponents fist” to defend oneself instead of blocking and stepping away with professional wrestling. Don’t get me wrong, I know what a trained grappler looks liked but don’t confuse the hordes of fat untrained and inexperienced tough guys flailing their arms at each other and grabbing onto whatever they find out of panic with someone with even half a clue over what to do once they end up on the ground. The average person has a better chance of breaking their own leg attempting a takedown given how few people understand what leverage and using core strength to force someone off balance means in grappling.
>Wrong. You cherry-pick a fight, which still proves your dumbass wrong. Jon Jones won that fight by outgrappling Chael, a D1 wrestler. Chael's strikes didn't do jack shit. This match demonstrates the dominance of wrestling.
I really didn’t. Jones is an awful fighter in general and leans more into striking anyways. He won by cheating more so than his techniques and skills which is apparent when you watch any match with him. He only won against Chael at the end of the match due to an endurance difference between him and chael (chael was gassing himself out striking at jones while jones was busy trying not to get knocked out or falling flat) rather than anything related to actual skill
>Wrong. You don't need the perfect takedown to end someone. Attaining top control alone wins the fight.
You sound both naïve and like an amateur wrestler if you believe this. This idea could be correct if you’re fighting an opponent with functionally zero core and leg strength. Otherwise, if you’re dealing with an opponent that has a sense of developed balance (which is what you’ll find in every martial art given how man art styles involve kicking and agility), you’re in for a lot of shit. No, wrestling is hard and you need to account for stuff like forcing people off both their lower and upper balance to ensure submissions and countering fall break and roll attempts. You’re failing to respect that opponents can move while you’re trying to control them.
>If the cop is less skilled in grappling, the concrete becomes my tool and his liability.
“If the cop is less skilled in grappling” you hearing yourself right now tough guy?
>Cope. Show some humility and admit that any D1 wrestler will cave your fucking skull in in a real fight, nullifying every second of your pointless striking training
Alright moron. Go show me your amerishart high school wrestling techniques you haven’t trained in years. Even better, show me it on solid concrete where I can pile drive my heel into your cranium.
>Wrong. Strikers without grappling always lose embarrassingly. TDD is not enough to beat a champion.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vP6dXhqC3Wc&pp=ygUfR2VvcmdlIHNhaW50IHBpZXJyZSB2cyBncmFwcGxlcg%3D%3D
>Wrong. Only an untrained dumbass who cannot fight would type all that shit. Wrestling is useful in any context. Your untrained strikes are countered easily. A high school wrestler would actually murder you
Yes because a CTE blast is on par in terms of lethality as someone grabbing my leg and pressing their weight on my core :/. Also you ignored again what I just said about multifights, fighting on hard or sharp surfaces, dealing with people that can counter grabs, enclosed spaces, or (I didn’t include this) even just the reality that you cannot expect to grab someone that can push you away or knows the direct counters to wrestling techniques. Believe me, I’ve tried to find footage of wrestlers fighting against strikers and, in all cases I found, not a single grappler purely relied on grappling to win fights but on striking first to set up grappling attempts rather than the other way around—assuming grappling was even sound given their environment.
>ukemi may break a fall and save your spine from being broken, but it won't do jack shit once your stupid, untrained ass gives up top control
I’ve been over this comment about top control, also anyone trained in fall breaking techniques at that point is going to have the agility required to step or roll away from another telegraphed or even just obvious grab attempt stupid.

I don’t know how many more points you want to bring up. Grappling by itself and even in combination with striking is just not useful enough of an art to be helpful in the majority of fights. It’s too hard to learn, not easy to practice, not easy to find training for, not safe to use in most settings without risking injury to yourself or exposing yourself to someone else’s attacks, and those are just the most common issues. It’s not a bad art, but it’s not useful by itself and not practical to pick up for most people. If it helps, someone has a better chance of surviving in fights by learning dirty boxing, Muay Thai, or Muay boran where
>less energy intensive and less committal clinchwork techniques
are used to set up attacks that can reliably cause damage and allow for easier wins without opening up the grappler to injury, losing balance, or pointlessly putting themselves at a disadvantage in multifights or fights involving weapons.

>>685402
>I’ve been over this comment about top control, also anyone trained in fall breaking techniques at that point is going to have the agility required to step or roll away from another telegraphed or even just obvious grab attempt stupid.
Here’s an example of what this looks like by the way. These guys are hundreds of pounds, imagine how much easier it is for someone with the same agility but at a normal weight—oh wait i don’t have to, that person is Izzy.


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