I was listening to a Citations Needed episode about the propaganda trope of "Labor shortages" and realized that all that WE NEED MORE WOMEN AND PEOPLE OF COLOR is not about making software companies less monocultural (which is good in itself), and the real porky's goals are:
1. Increasing the overall supply of engineers, like they pushed women into the workforce in the 60s in the West.
2. Getting the candidates who tend to accept lower salaries (at least women are routinely underpaid, probably PoC too).
In fact, CN hosts briefly mentioned it themselves:> what they want to do is they want to expand the pool by any means necessary, whether they use liberal inclusion language or whether or not they use, they want to have more workers because if I have twenty people applying for a job versus three, the demands, of course, will be far lesshttps://citationsneeded.medium.com/episode-135-the-labor-shortage-ruse-how-capital-invents-staffing-crises-to-bust-unions-and-fb42448a7e23
Somehow, the whole inclusivity hype should be hijacked with unionizing, because who would oppose the white'n'male CEOs' tyranny if not a diverse labor movement?
>"THERE'S A SHORTAGE OF DEVELOPERS WITH 15 YEARS EXPERIENCE IN XYZ 123 V10-15 WHO ARE WILLING TO WORK FOR MINIMUM WAGE! IT'S A CRISIS!"
We all knew this. There is literally no shortage of people in tech. There is a HUGE glut of entry level stem and tech people who would gladly do the work if on the job training were offered. There is a "shortage" of senior people with extreme niche skills, and there always will be
. This shortage could easily be fixed by hiring recent graduates and training them in the skills needed but that costs money so porky wants to "min max" by hiring an experienced tech guy who can "hit the ground running" and then gets butthurt that it costs a lot. What they really want is never to have to train anyone and be able to hire people with whatever niche particular skills at an extremely low price.
Even loosening on the min maxing labor even a little bit would help (ex: by offering a multi year contract, where the worker gets on the job training in exchange for promising not to leave for a while) but porky refuses. It's literally just being too greedy.
Of course, they're even trying to get homeless people and people in jail to learn to code to drive wages down, and it worked perfectly. Not that I care, tbh, programming must be one of the most classcucked fields.
So, I'm reading that eliminating the gender gap makes men more employable.
It's ok. Unless they create super easy tools for rapid development (which they have been trying for 30 years or whatever), cis girls won't be interested lol.
The few cis programmer girls I've worked with were quite malebrained and atypical.
CEOs' biggest hope is that the trash Microsoft keeps promising every few years about drag-and-drop programming actually delivers.
>>10090>cis girls>cis programmer>malebrained>atypical
can you ditch the woke language and explain to me in materialist terms what that actually means
please don't try to teach me radlib speech, i will never understand that, just translate it.
Not him but cis is basically "non-trans". He is trying to say that women who are not autistic (atypical) won't be going into coding en masse.
Which is somewhat true because women have less autism or autistic traits on average (3-4x less according to research). But judging how many dudebros have entered the industry in the last decades because of the salaries, I don't agree in general. Also, many non-Anglo countries have much more women in IT (for example, Eastern Europe).
it's just the rehash of an old /g/ meme about crossdressing men being the best programmers
>>10092>Not him but cis is basically "non-trans".
negative identities ? this feels like you are trying to divide by zero
I'm basically probing if the hole woke thing has already degenerated into being used for justifying occupational sexism,
I don't know what any of it means because it's too much turbo idealism but it sounds very similar to somebody from 60 years ago saying women are hysterical.
I have figured out that people who use woke language make very reactionary conclusions but they somehow make it sound like they are trying to improve society.>Which is somewhat true because women have less autism or autistic traits on average (3-4x less according to research).
These results don't tell you anything, their definition of autism is bad it equates a bunch of different things that are biologically unrelated. When they put somebody on the autistic spectrum it's basically using the same methodological errors as IQ testing, it might even be a little worse. They don't have clinical tests, so they might be measuring something else like differences in socialization. >dudebros
So i looked up what that means, it's characterized by clothing fashion and other consumer choices. It's so very frustrating: How is that even a relevant category ?>much more women in IT (for example, Eastern Europe).
It's not a nationality thing, the difference is in private sector vs public sector, public sector industries have lower skew in sex ratios.
You don't have to think this much into it, >>10090
just claimed that women are too stupid for programming.
Not stupid, just uninterested.
not being autistic enough to be a good programmer doesn't mean someone is stupid, stupid
It's not a negative identity, "cisgender" simply means someone having the same gender that was assigned at birth.
> So i looked up what that means, it's characterized by clothing fashion and other consumer choices.
No, the clothing is secondary here. By dudebros I meant normie and mostly extroverted males who aren't nerdy/geeky/introverted/autistic. Dudebro is a type that of persons that was almost absent from the IT before the 2000s.
> It's not a nationality thing, the difference is in private sector vs public sector, public sector industries have lower skew in sex ratios.
Eh? No, Eastern Europe doesn't have large public IT sector, almost all of it is private. It's just strong Soviet engineering traditions where math and engineering aren't considered purely "male" professions like in the West.
Source: I'm Eastern European
You don't need to be autistic to be a good programmer.
I'm Eastern European too and there were like 3 girls out of the 300 students at my university program and I never had a single woman coworker. I wish they started with this diversity bullshit earlier maybe then it wouldn't have felt like attending seminary.
The diversity bullshit isn't going to get women to be programmers. It's going to get them to be "product managers", "client liaisons", "sensitivity trainers", "developer evangelists", etc.
That's bullshit and you know it.
>>10111>It's not a negative identity
you literally used the "non-" prefix >>10092
with an identity, that's a negative identity.>"cisgender" simply means someone having the same gender that was assigned at birth.
please use a objective and materialist way of describing this, i can't follow your meaning, non of the terms you use links to something physical, there is just idealist explanations that link to other idealist explanation, that form closed loops , what does this refer too ? is it behavior ? >No, the clothing is secondary here.
why does that matter at all ?>By dudebros I meant normie and mostly extroverted males who aren't nerdy/geeky/introverted/autistic. >Dudebro is a type that of persons that was almost absent from the IT before the 2000s.
this sounds like pop psychology
what information do you get from this, like in a political context ? Does any of these "character attributes" really matter for socialism or class analysis ?>Eh? No, Eastern Europe doesn't have large public IT sector, almost all of it is private.
I assumed soviet history not the present.>It's just strong Soviet engineering traditions where math and engineering aren't considered purely "male" professions like in the West.
anybody considers engineering and math as a male profession ? It's very cerebral and mostly abstract reasoning, like it doesn't need physical strength or anything. Can you explain ?
Okay. Keep seething.
I see this word used all the fucking time these days by right-wingers.
Dude, you asked and I’m answered what it all meant among normies and wokies, stop with this pedantry to appear Le Rational Materialist. I’m not in charge of these terms, go send a complaint to the CEO of modern language. >>10121
See… what? I shared an observation, I’m actually pro-women-in-IT because the current sausage party is tiresome.
both are heavily correlated. but a proper study would be interesting
>>10091>dude you're being woke!!!!>still using terms like "materialist"
pseud assread_a_fucking_bookRead a Fucking Book
Is it still worth learning programming if there's some specific projects I'd like to create on the side? I know I probably won't get a decent job with it but I don't see anyone else doing what I want to do.
Why not? If you think you will go through with it. Worst case you just spend some time learning something new and interesting.
What is your groundbreaking idea? Or is it a trade secret?
Apparently there's scientific evidence that diverse teams perform better, for example: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1111/ecge.12016
>>11067>Is it still worth learning programming
Yes because coding is the new literacy. The difficult parts you have to learn are usually conceptual which you keep even if you go to a different programming language later.
It's primarily for language learning, I want to create something similar to readlang/learning with texts for which you can import text and articles to use for reading in your target language, but instead of just focusing on unfamiliar words it implements the ilya frank methodhttp://english.franklang.ru/index.php/ilya-frank-s-reading-method
via some open source translator I imagine. It's one of my favorite learning language methods but there are so many limited resources outside of premade russian to target language texts.
I'm sticking with diversity
>>10085>We all knew this. There is literally no shortage of people in tech. There is a HUGE glut of entry level stem and tech people who would gladly do the work if on the job training were offered. There is a "shortage" of senior people with extreme niche skills, and there always will be. This shortage could easily be fixed by hiring recent graduates and training them in the skills needed but that costs money so porky wants to "min max" by hiring an experienced tech guy who can "hit the ground running" and then gets butthurt that it costs a lot. What they really want is never to have to train anyone and be able to hire people with whatever niche particular skills at an extremely low price.
so like,, what the public schooling system was designed for?
I don't know how to ask this without sounding rude.
Are you a little slow?
There might be hidden factors for this productivity beyond "lmao our team tastes like a rainbow".
I've talked with coworkers and friends about how the push for women in tech is to deskill Software engineering. There's even more push for this, including visas and other mechanisms. I'm a benefactor of these methods BTW, just being critical. Software engineering is for whatever reason highly individualistic. Even in places where they are paid no better than other skilled jobs, in both the third and first world. It's bizarre because good software engineering is highly social and collaborative.
I've ranted about this shit industry and its people many times before. >>12273>>10095
Just realized you might have not been familiar with the 'cis' term. Nevermind on being slow.
I don't think that's the goal but it would be a welcome development. The majority of programming jobs do not need a software engineer, they could be done by anyone who has done a six months bootcamp. But every company thinks they need a genius with two PhDs and a decade of experience working at FAANG.
you just realized this?
i mean good, i'm glad. just kind of surprised.
leftists dont have to reject inclusivity to combat liberal bullshit, but it helps to not drink the koolaid
To be clear I am not saying that there are no software engineering jobs. But there is a clear difference between reimplementing some basic CRUD shit for the millionth time and actual engineering work, and it is time for software engineers to admit this, otherwise they will all be dumbed down to the level of the former.
calm down, child of unspecified gender
Didn't women used to be more involved in computer science than they are now?
>>12281>Didn't women used to be more involved in computer science than they are now?
Yes, over half a century ago computer science had almost a 50:50 sex ratio. In a time when computer screens were made out of needle printers, and computer cases were rooms.
public school produces generalists not muh senior software engineer with 15 years experience in xyz framework oracle elkstack microservices CRM salfesforce servicenow integration with 5+ years experience in apache storm and oh yeah, do the testing and front end react dev on top of that.
>itt amerimutts and their shit education system whine about being unemployed while failing to meet the credentials required for professional jobs in a time where the average amount of education and training it takes to make a qualified engineer is 26 years at bare minimum
>>10084>making software companies less monocultural (which is good in itself)
as a former right winger, I want to know why that is actually good
higher chance of office hookups
I'm being serious
even though I'm over with that period of my life, why should I be happy with my team tasting like a rainbow?
then it literally doesn't matter
Shut the fuck up burger subhuman
Beyond obvious tech fails like the famous vidrelated, working with 10-20 mostly middle-class-background dudebros would be like working in a locker room (same goes for female-only offices but they aren't present in tech). Having around people with ± the same attitudes, tastes, life experiences and jokes is suffocating and, I believe, it's even worse in the US because of their segregated society.
It isn't really, and I don't say this to be demeaning. It's just that the tech people I know who are women or non-white generally don't really bring in different attitudes or values or behaviors from everyone else.
At the end of the day, at least from my experience, specific positions will tend to attract people with specific personalities. It's honestly depressing how uniform it can get.
It's more like 5 immigrants from India, 5 immigrants from China, and 1 awkward american nerd. All dudes of course.
Pretty much my experience from working in tech teams. And most of them tend to have the same typical autist nerd personality where they are completely clueless about anything apart from their own specialized little tech knowledge.
>>12770>typical autist nerd personality where they are completely clueless about anything apart from their own specialized little tech knowledge.
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