what would be the ideal social network site???
Imageboards (ex: 4chan, *chan “alt chans”):
• No registration
• OP requiring attachment forces content/memes to be produced
• Pruning catalog keeps server space needed to minimum
• Lack of upvote system reduces groupthink and disincentivizes non-originality
• Anonymity + siloing by board centered board identity over personality
• Linear reply structure that requires minimal interaction to read
• Effortposts that do happen are often phenomenal quality
• Attracts schizos, racists and “free speech” people who have been banned from other SM for good reason
• Dated UX/UI (mid 2000s approx.) loved by users but retro looking and unappealing to “normies”.
• Dumb curation based on last bump time, incentivizing bait posting (probably this problem shared with other SM)
• Effortposts rare and disincentivized
Notes: Imageboards are in theory fantastic as the fact that they have a limit (usually around 350 threads per board) reduces hosting costs, and also incentivizes people to make interesting posts, because posts that do not garner replies will quickly sink and “fall off” aka get pruned from the catalog. This is also likely what gives chans their edgy character as a “provocative” or edgy post will be more likely to garner the replies needed to keep the thread near the top of the catalog. This can be a problem for quality as a well thought out long form “blog” style post may garner less responses and be far more effort than a 1-2 line “bait” post with an intentionally bad or controversial opinion. In this sense “trolling” and “baiting” are nearly built into the incentive structure of imageboards by definition. Some imageboards try to combat this by imposing a minimum character count for new threads (ex: 200 characters) but this seems like a bit of a hack and is contrary to the overall logic of the medium. Many of the “cons” of imageboards are pros in the eyes of long time users, such as its dated, non mobile friendly UI, and edginess, are seen as needed to preserve the status of imageboard users as outsiders. This creates a unique and culturally prolific space but at the same time dooms imageboards’ mainstream appeal.
• Algorithmic timeline microtargets content to users, increasing engagement.
• Social connections keep people tied to platform.
• Makes a ton of money
• Reveals personal information about name, job, location, gender, personal relationships status, friends, family etc.
• Incredibly personality centric
Facebook’s business model is pretty simple. Get people to sign up with their personal information and connect with friends (and maybe someone attractive you briefly met at a house party). Then take that detailed personal information and use it to microtarget advertisements at exactly the right demographic for advertisers and political campaigns. Mark Zuckerberg does not believe in privacy. Before facebook, people mainly used screennames and aliases online. It was facebook that changed this, so that people used their real names and faces online. Which is what he considers one of his big accomplishments. Needless to say, I hated this development and I’ve hated the culture it created ever since. Zuckerberg says he made the world more “open and connected”. Another way of saying that is more surveilled and more bothered by busybodies. Anonymity is freedom. There’s a reason every year young people leave small towns across this land to move to big cities, because living in a place where everyone is in your business all the time and a bunch of gossiping people is a prison-lite environment. In a small town, even if you change, evolve, and become a totally different person, people will still remember and think about the things you did as a teenager or when you were twelve. I hate facebook because he’s turned the whole world into one big small town, from which there is no escape. People say the internet is making the world a smaller place, but has anyone ever stopped to ask if its getting too small? But yes, it does make a lot of money. And all they had to do was ruin the internet and possibly break politics to do it. Probably the only thing facebook does well is the algorithmic timeline which increases engagement.
• Mobile friendly design
• Decent discoverability
• Decent editor UI for posting
• Diverse OP content (images, animated gifs, videos)
• Pseudo-anonymity, except for blue checkmarks
• Personality centric
• Meme ideologies
• Character limit incentivizes un nuanced “hot takes”
• Forced mobile style UI on desktop (“mobile first”)
• Nonlinear reply structure confusing, forced clickthrough
• Quote Replies
• Notifications mechanic incentivizes performative takes for subs/likes
Notes: Marginally better than twitter but still bad. Character limit makes sense from a mobile first perspective, after all who’s trying to read a 20,000 word thesis on a smartphone screen, however has the side effect of making people reduce their takes to the shortest, most un nuanced, un supported version of itself, which in effect reduces takes to “X bad, Y good” or sarcastic or cryptic one liners. Trump was a master of twitter due to his brain being small enough that his thoughts only require 240 characters anyway. Workaround is creating a twitter thread which is less readable than unbroken text and looks bad anyway, plus people have been trained by the platform to only read short takes and will tune out essay length twitter threads anyway due to twitter induced ADD. Non linear tree style reply structure is confusing and requires too much clicking to read through. The positive thing is the infinite scroll provides a constant stream of content, if the person limits their interaction to scrolling and liking only (not replying or reading replies). Editor for posts is far superior to any non facebook platform. Quote retweet allow “dunking” and incentivize leaching off original content, “reply guys” who quote tweet someone else and add their own vapid or sarcastic commentary. Read somewhere that the twitter engineer that invented the quote retweet regrets it (as he should). Even regular retweeting is pretty lazy. If the only purpose of retweeting is outsourcing discoverability to the user, a better mechanism is needed. While imageboards incentivize creating content that gets a lot of replies, twitter incentivizes getting lots of likes, in fact a high reply to like ratio is considered a bad thing “getting ratio’d” as a reply with no like is a proxy for dislike. So while imageboards do not distinguish between positive and negative interaction, twitter and all other like based systems implicitly encourage “performative” content creation/takes a.k.a users saying the things that they think other people will like, to therefore increase their own visibility, celebrity, etc. Rather than saying their honest opinion, if indeed they have any. Exporting Los Angeles style “trying to become famous” culture to the rest of the world. This is a cancerous dynamic. Should avoid like/dislike systems at all costs, esp. as complex feelings are reduced to a binary attribute (like/dislike). Possible side effect = polarization?.
• Communities based on interest not personality
• Generally medium to medium-high quality content
• Post History visible reduces anonymity
• Branching reply structure
• Terrible UI
• OP too short (as a “link aggregator” its often just a link to a news article)
• Likes/Dislikes, Karma, Gold, Silver, and the rest of that bullshit
Notes: Reddit is a website with a decent concept but a bad UI and worse userbase. Yes, as a channer the typical image of a “redditor” comes to mind. A limp dick neckbeard soyboy with a rick and morty t-shirt. Reddit is the Thomas Edison of websites, its users steal all their content from people that actually make original content, repost it, and then act like they invented the whole thing. A perfect encapsulation of middle class bland yuppie suburban consumer culture, a circlejerk which produces nothing original and never will. Part of the broader disneyfication and pg-13ification of a sterile and desexed pop culture, with a good dose of smarmy smarter than thou smugness and milquetoast center-left politics thrown on top. Peak midwit. Certain subreddits are niche and good. Reddit evolved to replace a lot of the old school bulletin board forums for niche gaming/auto/etc interests. At least its based on shared interests and not personality based drama. Like/Dislike and karma system encourages the same hivemind and performative posting BS as with twitter. At worst as a “link aggregator” it simply acts as a comment system for articles on websites that don’t have their own comment section. Not much to be borrowed here mechanically, except maybe allowing users to make a http link as their op as an alternative to videos/images.
• Pseudonymous option
• Potentially very high quality content
• High word count
• Low discoverability
• Bad on mobile
Notes: Blogs and blog-like sites like Tumblr are actually surprisingly good. Unlike the transient nature of twitter posts, people tend to put effort into blogposts and even include sources from time to time. The only problem is that blogs tend to be separate websites and even when on the same domain (ex: wordpress.com) they tend to lack discoverability. Tumblr at its peak in the early 2010s seemed like a transitional website, a sort of nu-myspace. The downside of high character count is that blogs, regardless of “responsive” design, tend to read badly on phones and don’t lend themselves well to casual use.
• Extremely potent mandatory recommender system driven content
• Short video clips lend well to casual use
• Video format more accessible to dimwits and tired people than walls of text
• Often cancer tier ultranormie content, on par with instagram
• Primarily consumed by children and teens
Notes: Tiktok’s content may be cancer but it’s format is genius. The most addicting app of the modern era. Instead of allowing people to search for content but adding recommender systems like youtube, tiktok leans in and puts it on steroids by making the recommender system the main way to access content. This is like increasing the nicotine content 3x.
• Audiovisual and audio content easier to digest
• AV/A content easier to listen to while moving (i.e. commuting or walking)
• Works for both long and short content
• Recommender Algorithm very good
• Video storage takes a ton of space on disk.
• Streaming content in a timely manner tricky, practically mandates CDN use
• Responses text-only
Notes: The second most popular social media network. Takes way too much storage for video. On the plus side the recommendation engine is scarily good and addictive. AV content can be consumed with walking, driving, etc. while reading text for that is pretty difficult. Object storage and delivery (files, videos, images) is a usually overlooked aspect of these sites. Responses being text only is listed as a con, but it can be a pro in the sense that it saves storage space and it encourages being OP-centric in an r9k-ish way.
Linkedin – facebook for jobseekers, professionals, and hustle culture psychopaths.
Snapchat – fancy texts that delete themselves.
Pinterest – Not familiar enough to comment but looks like a glorified booru for middle aged women
Telegram/Signal/Whatsapp/etc. - Texting that’s ““secure””.
Medium – Blogging for people who are too lazy to set up their own blog. Often mistaken for legitimate “news”.
Tumblr is still my favorite social network mostly because the curated content but the memes and the absolute lack of influencers and brand accounts make it so comfy.
In socialism we'll need to rethink how social networks work completely and redesign them to give people what they need and not squish them for ad revenue
i always wondered why tumblr died, is it literally just because they banned porn?
in their attempt to ban porn lots of people who were not porn blogs got shadow banned either way so lots of people left feeling unwelcomed but in the end it was a good thing, all the toxic people are on twitter now and tumblr has become really chill.
I think i discovered why reddit is the way it is: its a link aggregator. Its not about producing content its about aggregating this and allowing people to comment like an omni-comment section for the whole internet. So "stealing" content is literally built into reddit at a mechanical level.
a combination of imageboards and classic phpbb by przemo forums with at least three important things to note:
-no requirement for attachments
-no methods of identification (flags and so on)
-no duplicate images
D-did you only realize that now?
whats your opinion on recommender systems? does a new form of communication basically require one (algorithmic timelines, recommended videos, etc.) to compete with the addictiveness of modern "social media"? seems like the breakout apps nowdays (ex: tiktok) all are based on recommender systems
yeah but requiring an attachment is what forces the memes to be produced though
Textboards are the best in terms of anonymity and discussion potential, but they aren't very popular.
Why is there no facebook-but-not-evil?
Like I'd legit make an account on something like a facebook if it just fixed some major shittyness, e.g.:
- pushing random stuff at you that it thinks you will like in the moment, but no reliable access to notifications or a persistent list of things you might like, so you can check if of your own volition
- facial recognition, forcing you to use your phone number, and all that creepy super personally identifying stuff
- not respecting the users at all
- thats basically it actually
why cant we just have pseudonymous facebook that give you a bare minimum of respect in how it shows you things. Just a facebook that doesnt fingerprint you and gives you power over what you see, for your benefit….
I guess the big issue would be paying for it. Federated models are super unappealing to non-technical people when theyre expected to find or choose or set up server instances, and they can be not even good for a security perspective if everyone is using one main instance. But personally i think at least having the option to set up your own thing is a huge coup.
A centralized model would need huge funding, and who will give it? Companies who would just control the project and change it to suit them. No one donates. Maybe mine bitcoin in everyone's phone who has the app i dont know :p
P2P is ass generally and doesnt allow for the extra space to store stuff
anyways this is what I consider might be the best social media. A bunch of linked personal sites, with potential interests and stuff being recommended to you, that people consider normie and will use to organize stuff irl and advertize their business and do all kinds of super normie stuff on.
Just has to not track you, fingerprint you, demand identifying information, spy on you, has to be FOSS, has to allow weird connections like Tor, etc. Allowing but not forcing federation would be even more awesome. Also maybe encryption by default :p
A theoretical true recommendation system would tell you, "if you liked that, then you may also like this" based on correlation clustering with other users data in the set.
The problems are:
1. Real recommendation systems don't work like this. That's the pretense, but they're either straight up ads driven by auction, hand curated by staff, or manipulated by various influential groups.
2. It presupposes that the centralized dataset exists in the first place. Are the recommendations worth keeping this centralized power around? I remember reading that netflix switched to either random or most popular, and getting better metrics than their best matching algorithm. Doubly not worth it.
3. It dulls people's organic search skills. They come to expect algorithmic recommendations, which also means dependency.
That's if the organic data hasn't atrophied away.
4. Even the best algorithm tends towards mediocrity. And how could they be otherwise. No algorithm can bottle human serendipity.
In the rare times I browse youtube in normalfag mode, I've watched popular/trending things. They are always take-it-or-leave it tier. They always have a junkfood aftertaste.
The decentralized version of algorithmic recommendations is NON-algorithmic recommendations. It's just a bunch of anons shitposting, and occasionally cool things surface organically. It doesn't scale, can't be replicated, and will likely only decline in appeal going forward.
>>10259>why cant we just have pseudonymous facebook that give you a bare minimum of respect in how it shows you things.
because thats not as profitable
aren't algorithmic recommender systems supposed to be individualized? I think they largely work as intended on for example youtube, by giving you similar content to what you've seen before. You're right in that now normies have become addicted to recommenders the skill of finding shit is declining.
8ch + youtube + soulseek
>>10252>Don't put "normies" in scare quotes you fucking normalfag. The arrival of social networks marked the beginning of the death of the internet by commercialization.
This is surely precisely why "normies" should be in scarequotes. A normie, a normalfag, whatever you want to say, is not a real thing. It's not an inherent trait of a person. Put geeks on Twitter and you get normalfaggotry, sit normal people down with only a HTML editor and you won't. Sites shape the people who use them far more than people shape the sites they use. >>10260
tbh a true recommendation system seems just as, if not more philosophically objectionable than the various half-measures we've already got. non-algorithmic recommendations passed around by actual human beings and randomly searching by yourself are by far preferable.
also there is a fifth disadvantage which has developed concurrently, even if it's not an essential feature of a recommendation system: not only are people's organic search skills dulled, they are crippled. most sites don't support a ton of basic search operators (at best you tend to find that you can stick quotation marks around things to increase the chance they'll actually appear, and if you're very lucky, use asterisks as a wildcard. that's it.), often sites will have infinitely scrolling pages rather than pagination, ensuring a browser crash before you've found what you were looking for if it wasn't incredibly recent, especially in combination with the removal of basic features like being able to search for things from oldest to newest.
>>10266>Sites shape the people who use them far more than people shape the sites they use.
Blaming others is the most telling and fundamental trait of a normalfaggot.
There is absolutely fucking nothing making people use social crap like twitbook except normalfag high-school mentality pressuring each other onto them, because according to nuerotypical normie logic, all normal people have faceinstachat with a million pictures of their narcissistic highlight real and if you don't give up all your data to these corps you are some kind of anti-social creepazoid. When the corps predictably exploit this herd behaviour, normies screech that they dindu nuffin.
Normies are the majority and like always they will manage to wash off any blame onto evil programmer autists who trap them with dystopian software, but on tech boards, their behaviour and mentality will be recognized and shamed.
There would be down voting but no upvoting. This would solve 90% of problems
It certainly does nothing to solve the central problem of plebbit which is that arguments are voted on rather than assessed for their merits.
Is there any sort of feedback system that works?
Scientific peer review among cybernetic Hoxhaist state-university institutions.
Works to what end exactly?
Let’s us sort out quality content from shit without succumbing to hive mind group think.
Why would you need that anyway?
I'm not convinced such a system is possible. The very act of forcing yourself to sort, to focus on the arguments and analyze them, is what prevents you from succumbing to hive mind group think in the first place.
>>10267>Blaming others is the most telling and fundamental trait of a normalfaggot.
No, that would be assigning individual responsibility for structural issues. You are autism cattle.
Cattle can't have individual responsibility because they're not sentient. They don't reason or make choices of any kind, and experience systems of control as pain, rather than higher level concepts such as coercion or duress.
However even cattle should be protected from harm, which is why facebook and twitter should be banned.
>>10286>which is why facebook and twitter should be banned
Others will take their place. The problem is that there is massive demand for the narcissistic grandstanding that they enable.
The only solution is a social one. Change the culture so that this kind of tendency is ignored, starved, and dismissed.
It doesn't even need to be a conscious effort. Normies already seethe themselves into a frenzy when you dismiss their interests, or consider them trivial or silly. Gemini is already doing this just by replicating old HTTP protocol but deliberately making it incompatible with current browsers. The amount of salt this produced among normcuck web-aware, mobile-first, disruptive startup "entrepreneurs" over at Hacker News was amazing. People who built their entire lives and identity around this online circus and its enablement seeing others just having fun away from their sphere of normie one-upmanship and hating it.
Make twitter and facebook uncool just like they made myspace and geocities uncool before them. Coolness/uncoolness hits the normie high-school mentality much more deeply and severely.
thats assuming that there's no objective measure of quality or something which approximates it
We're losing the tech culture war though.
Freedom is "boomer".
Programming, hacking, and knowledge is boomer.
Wired Ethernet is boomer.
Torrenting is boomer.
Literally everything that can break dependency and control of the tech giants is boomer.
Selfies, wireless charging, proprietary connectors, being an influencer, streaming culture, no headphone jack, forced upgrades, and app stores are all the cool hotness, according to the capitalist controlled media.
Techier oriented sites are hardly far above normalfag places regard to circlejerk levels, go check out some Slashdot posts for instance. Imageboards also have a lot more groupthink than the OPost claims, just enforced in different manners than sites that have le ebin upboat capabilities. Has no one ventured out of here recently?
The number of people that move away from big tech dependency is growing, it is just on a much slower incline, than the incoming newbies falling for big tech closed ecosystems.
People won't make the effort to learn the open stuff, until after they get burned by consequences or feel the constraints when they bump into the lock-in cage, so there is considerable lag before they move on.
Within capitalism we will get a maximum of 10% of all users to move to FOSS and all the other stuff, for more you need to be able to control the superstructure.
thats because the internet was for nerds before and now the ultranormies are on it
what you're talking about happened decades ago when normies began to overtake nerds as the primary users of the internet. And now you have ultranormie cancer (ex: literally anything on instagram)
the Internet actually was used for government purposes and then mostly academic ones, not this idealized shit people constantly spew about some fake "golden time".
by the time it got to the ordinary so called "nerds" it already had been basically privatized.
heck, if the technology had been as advanced then the mass commercialization of the Web would've been just as bad, and it even so without all the data analytics of today managed to be extremely shitty quite frequently.
reposting comment from other bread, basically the best would be an all-in-one like Facebook as long as privacy and personal data issues are solved
Perhaps I am biased since it's been my main platform for years now but Facebook seems like the right idea for an ideal social media site.
Its biggest pro is really monopolizing and deciding they were gonna steal features from every other social media site. Completely absorbed Snapchat into its Messenger app, stole Craigslist's role as the local marketplace seller, fucking integrated its own Tinder dating feature, blogging exists through Pages and accommodates effortposts, it's much shitter now since that feature got whored out to corporations though. But that encouraged users to take advantage of Groups, which is basically subreddits. Won't find medium-high quality content as often, but if you curate your group to being niche enough, it can form good communities and attract the autist who'll effortpost and spark good discussion occasionally. Its Video section is okay, isn't as user friendly Tiktok which was built to host video, and its algorithm can't seem to curate content as good as YT- also hasn't attracted the quality content creators from either.
Also, I think it hits a good balance between anonymity and reddit's activity visibility. You don't have to give up any information on registration, you can make a completely false profile with a fake name, have almost complete control over who can comment or see the shit you share/post, and pretty much go into discussions with anonymity since people can't really search for comments you leave on profiles and pages. As long as you keep an iron lock on info FB network can cross reference like location or personal history, you'll never get found by IRL peers. Posting edgy bait on public shit is also discouraged since enough profile reports will get Zuck demanding to verify who you are, so that type of shit is discouraged(unless you find private edgy groups that don't report shit, which is actually very easy to do. Heard Proud Boys and other faschy types would just organize and shit through Facebook Groups, actually).
From what I know China's biggest social media WeChat also follows this all-in-one-model kinda, and I think Facebook is close to hitting the magic recipe in that regard, although it's personality centric on the profile side, it's really easy to just find pages/blogs or groups tailored to a specific topic or interest, so it lends itself to discovering/building communities easily. it's just fucking plagued by capitalist monetization and all the fucking breaches of privacy and demands for personal data, when they're not just stealing it covertly. Assuming a socialist revolution gets rid of these elements, basically an all-in-one model improving off what Facebook's built so far seems like the optimal way to go.
>>10330>Also, I think it hits a good balance between anonymity and reddit's activity visibility. You don't have to give up any information on registration, you can make a completely false profile with a fake name
False, you need a phone number, and even if you somehow get through with some online temp phone number, they will deactivate your account soon after.
Theoretically you can make as many throwaway reddit accounts as you want, it's just that social capital is hyperrealized on reddit and put into the center of interactions, so in most cases you're worth nothing without "points" or whatever you collect there. You also need to bypass google's captcha to register so no go over Tor.
It's been a long time since I last made a FB profile, so I thought it still gave you the option to register with email rather than phone number, and it'll just annoyingly ask for your phone # whenever you log on but give you the option to skip it.
A discussion forum, assuming a socialist society:
1. Unique Internet ID that gets encrypted and is connected on the back-end to your real name. This way you can avoid bots and shills easier. Real name can only be accessed through a court order if criminal laws are broken. No TOR, no VPNs allowed. Only allow domestic IPs may post, foreign IPs can only lurk (no USano zone).
2. On the front end, you can remain anonymous or post with a fantasy-name profile.
3. Different boards/subforums, curated by the owners, with many general threads.
4. Sidebar with the most active threads, blog-pages that summarize or compile popular threads for the ultra-normies, ability to bookmark threads and posts. Threads do not disappear like on imageboards, although a user can delete his posts if he wishes so.
5. Obviously no advertisements. No upvotes or no likes. Threads that get bumped show at the top, and each board can sticky a few threads.
6. If a user opts to use a profile name, he can also opt in or out of receiving private messages.
7. Duplicate threads get deleted.
8. Some boards or threads are marked as serious - no memes, no emojis allowed, minimum character count. Some boards or threads are marked as fun - (almost) anything goes. Some boards or threads are marked as shitposting - anything legal goes.
9. Moderation depends on the thread and board type. Jannies get paid to moderate by the state. Serious threads have strict moderation, shitpost have very loose moderation that allows insults.
10. No blatant discrimination allowed, no racial or religious violence, no targeted harassment campaigns. Ableist slurs like retard are allowed and even encouraged.
Sounds like an Orwellian dystopia. Why wait for socialism, the capitalist states seem very eager to track every fucking you've ever said or done on the internet already.
>>10352>NOOOOO I GOTTA BE ABLE TO POST CP AS I PLEASE
A socialist state can use surveillance to track wreckers and criminals. The biggest problem social media has are shills and bots.
PHPBB style forums were sometimes really comfy to be part of, and it is a shame that they've become much less popular nowadays
Tumblr and similar probably became less popular because not only did they not catch up to other sites with regard to newer features, but possibly also because they required somewhat more effort to fully use compared to glowdd*t and Instagram.
>>10356>pizza is literally the only reason for privacy
what did tumblr lack exactly that reddit had?
How to stop the CIA from doing their propaganda and botting without surveillance mechanisms?
you cant stop them even with surveillance mechanisms, and under socialism it would be irrelevant because the CIA would no longer exist
>>10360>How to stop the CIA from<doing their propaganda
we should strive to have better propaganda<botting without surveillance mechanisms?
surveillance doesn't help against bots, we have crazy levels of surveillance and yet there's bots everywhere.
You can do anonymous anti bot protection: you could put up anonymous ticket dispensers that print out a pass-key. For normal users getting one of those tickets every now and then isn't a big deal, but if you run a bot farm that's really going to be a massive pain.
Because those doing the surveilling and those doing the bots are the same guys.
no shit but those guys wouldnt exist anymore in a future system
Capitalist intelligence services will exist and try to work against us
capitalist intelligence services wont exist because capitalism wont exist
4chan but instead of boards you hashtag your posts like twitter
then everything will be an overboard that you can filter though
There are decentralized imageboards like that IIRC