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/edu/ - Education

'The weapon of criticism cannot, of course, replace criticism of the weapon, material force must be overthrown by material force; but theory also becomes a material force as soon as it has gripped the masses.' - Karl Marx
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 No.6563[Reply]

A list of reading groups and their schedules that have chosen to advertise themselves here. Take a minute to check them out. If you would like to promote your reading group, feel free to leave a comment telling people where they can go.

>>5912 /read/

>>6162 Continental Floppa
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 No.22009

>>21947
>Stalin
>Mao

Holy KEK

 No.22024

>>22009
NTW but YES
>J. V. Stalin’s Economic Problems of Socialism in the U.S.S.R.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1951/economic-problems/index.htm
and
>Selected Works of Mao Tse-Tung
Should be required reading, because too many idiots run their mouths about the USSR and Mao and Stalin, while blatantly ignoring what they actually said and enacted.



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 No.9298[Reply][Last 50 Posts]

ITT: resources and tips about navigating the Internet and researching topics

Feel free to post your own resources and tips too.

I'm going to post a lot of my own that I have gathered over the years.
I ask that random chit-chat in this thread is kept to a minimum except regarding technical questions & answers on the topic matter.
This is so that resources are kept as compact as possible, and so, readable.

First I'll dump resources and tips for researching various topics.
Note: I don't even have access to or use some of these myself (e.g. LexisNexis which seems to be pay-to-use), but I figure they could be helpful in some narrow cases. I use most of these myself. If the initial things I post don't interest you, keep reading anyway. I'm going to be dumping a lot of content.

PressReader
https://www.pressreader.com/
Find key terms in newspapers and magazines.
I would say this is more helpful for finding sources that do exist rather than for reading them, per se. You can try to read the articles elsewhere than PressReader if you know their titles or part of their body text. The site appears to brand itself as pay-to-use, however you can use the search tool anyway and even read some resulting articles.
Post too long. Click here to view the full text.
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 No.21640


 No.21991

>>21640
Currently reading this. This book is terrifying, amazing and probably the most important thing you can currently read.



 No.12217[Reply]

Reading group for Volume 1 of Capital. The reading pace will adjust to suit the group, but we will aim for an average of 1 chapter per week, starting slower and speeding up as we move from abstract to concrete toward the end.

The Book
The version we are using as our standard is the Penguin Classics edition (attached .epub) but others including other languages are fine. We are only planning to read Volume 1 currently.
There has also been an audiobook suggested which matches this version of the text and may be useful to helping read it.
Audiobook: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUjbFtkcDBlSHVigHHx_wjaeWmDN2W-h8

The Format
This thread is intended for
<announcements and updates
<supplementary material.
<Q&A
<long-form posts, effortposts, OC
<slower discussion in general
The matrix chat is intended for
Post too long. Click here to view the full text.
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 No.21674

What is relative surplus value? Idk, it sounds like something to do with prices but I can't really wrap my head around how it is different from normal surplus value.

 No.21796

Reposting an effortpost from a while back about Super-Profit

Let’s say that the average television takes 1 hour to make. 1 hour is the SNLT for televisions. But the owner of the ACME TV factory invests in some fancy new machines that make his workers twice as productive. They can now make a television in 30 minutes. They are producing way below the SNLT. This allows ACME to produce twice as many televisions in the same amount of time.

Now if ACME sold their new TV at half the old price they wouldn’t make any more money than before and there would have been no point in investing in all that new stuff. Rather than sell them at their individual value (30 minutes) they continue to sell them at the SNLT (1 hour), or perhaps just under the SNLT in order to out-sell their rivals. Because the price of TVs hasn’t changed significantly there is still the same demand from consumers for TVs, but now there is a giant surplus of TVs on the market because ACME has been making twice as many TVs. ACME’s rivals won’t be able to sell all of their TVs. Part of their product will go unsold. Meanwhile ACME will sell most of their TVs at the SNLT, making not just their normal profit, but an additional “super-profit” because they sold their TVs above their individual values by selling at or near the SNLT.

Profit vs. super-profit

Profit comes from exploiting workers. The only way to turn money into more money is to invest it in workers, or to be precise, in labor power, the only commodity which can produce more value than it costs. (This is all covered in the video “Law of Value 5: Contradictions”.) When ACME sells TVs at under the SNLT they don’t just reap their normal profits from exploiting workers. They also get super-profits: profit appropriated in exchange because their TVs are made at under the SNLT.

It is this race for super-profits that drives much of the technological dynamism of a capitalist society as capitalists compete to constantly lower SNLT. By doing so capitalists don’t just exploit value from workers. They also appropriate value in exchange.

https://kapitalism101.wordpress.com/2010/09/21/law-of-value-6-socially-necessary-labor-time/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb6dPost too long. Click here to view the full text.



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 No.11419[Reply]

Anon from the cybercom thread suggested I post this here as well. A forum for political economy research started by Marxists. Classical Econophysics is listed on the resource page.

>The goal of this forum is to create a community for producing and reproducing scientific knowledge in political economy that exists totally outside of the realm of academia, the world of bourgeois non-profits and thinktanks, and the state apparatus. Today, political economy, which has been transformed into the “scientific” discipline of economics, has been both gutted of its most insightful content and held back by obscurantist and outdated mathematical models. It was once the case, in the days of Smith, Ricardo and Marx, that political economy was a form of thinking, researching and discussion which was undertaken by a broad public: working men, skilled craftsmen, professionals, clergy and professors. In this time, people didn’t write textbooks of economics, books to be taught by rote learning, they wrote books which were meant to be read by people interested in political economy and further their own research and understanding.


>This forum is built on the optimism for human curiosity and ingenuity, on the hope that there’s a possibility for creating a social science that isn’t trapped in the confines of a state ideology. A place for discussing political economy and related issues outside of the universities, economic bureaucracies and institutes funded by and for the ruling class; to the extent individuals from that world use this forum it should be to escape that world. On the other side of things, while it would be excellent for the work of this forum and its users to go on and inspire political movements, the forum itself is not sectarian, and is intended as a place for a general scientific community where all stripes of researchers can present their findings and debate.


>The features of this site are intended to nurture such a community. Users can write posts on their own personal blogs in long form to describe their research, as well as follow the works of other users. The actual forum allows users to create topics to discuss anything political economy related, as well as developments in real world economies, keeping dialogue open and inclusive to the public. The debates in the forum can teach people about political economy, as well as inspire further investigat
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 No.11423

Look interesting. I don't have the know-how to contribute anything, but I would read the stuff on there.

 No.20130

Bumping for interest. Will post a more meaningful response later if I think of something

 No.20131

Good idea

 No.22048




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 No.22025[Reply]

I have to confess something to you, comrades. I've been a leftist for many years now (here since the 8chan days), and I still CANNOT fully understand what the fuck dialectics is. Yes, I've read plenty, I've read a lot of Marx and Engels, later Marxist authors, philosophy books, dictionary definitions, I've watched philosophy lectures, youtube videos. I've even read some Hegel, with a lot of difficulty. All this and my brain still cannot grasp wtf dialectics is actually supposed to be.
The first problem is that many of these texts on dialectics look like pure gibberish to me, and it makes me mad when I can't understand them. Second, the words and definitions seem to change constantly depending on what I'm reading. Some people talk about the "dialectical method", others about "laws of dialectics", the "dialectic of history", "materialist dialectics", "dialectical biology", "dialectical consciousness", x person's dialectics, x philosophy's dialectics, others even bring up math and physics, etc. It all becomes increasingly convoluted and confusing, and in the end I fail to understand anything. It just leads me back to my initial question, what the fuck is dialectics? Maybe I'm just really not smart enough for Marxism, or philosophy is not my thing.

Still, I've been thinking about giving dialectics another try, maybe starting from scratch again, so if anyone knowledgeable can point me in the right direction, I'd really appreciate it. Maybe there's some key treatise I've missed or some obscure lecture that will make it all easier. Thanks for reading my rant.

 No.22038

Hey man, I think that's admirable that you continue educating yourself and trying despite how much frustration it has caused you. You are trying to understand a very difficult subject here that most people aren't even trying to understand.

I have only read a couple of essays and a few books on the matter, so anyone more knowledgable feel free to correct me. In general, dialectics is the interaction of antithetical forces which leads to a radical transformation of something. With that comes new emergent qualities and phenomena. Dialectics is applicable to all kinds of domains and subjects and depending on that changes its appearance, but boils down to being the same thing.
Positivism and logic conceive of existence in a manner that is static and devoid of contradictions and therefore produces concepts that merely stack upon one another in a linear fashion. Dialectics on the other hand conceives of existence as inherently contradictory and always in motion. That's not to say dialectics is arbitrary since there are still causal relationships and laws inferable from that. Advancement in dialectics doesn't look like a mere summation of conclusions that are eternally correct in a static form they were in but a development of transformations that harbor its prior anithetical composites in a new form.

 No.22039

This is all you need to know, as demonstrated by Marx in a single paragraph in the first volume of Capital, chapter 3, section 2:
> We saw in a former chapter that the exchange of commodities implies contradictory and mutually exclusive conditions. The differentiation of commodities into commodities and money does not sweep away these inconsistencies, but develops a modus vivendi, a form in which they can exist side by side. This is generally the way in which real contradictions are reconciled. For instance, it is a contradiction to depict one body as constantly falling towards another, and as, at the same time, constantly flying away from it. The ellipse is a form of motion which, while allowing this contradiction to go on, at the same time reconciles it.
The rest is bullshit.

 No.22043

It is extremely important that the question of methodology be raised, not to assert a philosophical introduction in abstraction, but to show the concrete relation between method and analysis or more specifically between dialiectical materialism and political economy. It is the fusion of the Marxist philosophical method and outlook with the political economic analysis which makes that analysis a Marxist-Leninist one. In other words the method of political economy must be dialectical materialism. In the Preface to Capital, Marx states:

whilst the writer pictures what he takes to be actually nxy method in this striking and (as far as concerns my own application of it) generous way, what else is he picturing but the dialectical method?

In respect to the importance of the diatectical method and its relation to political economy, V.I. Lenin stated:

It is impossible completely to understand Marx’s Capital, and especially its first chapter, without having thoroughly studied and understood the whole of Hegel’s Logic (dialectical logic). Consequently, half a century later none of the Marxists understood Marx/

In the same light, it can be stated that unfamiliarity with dialectical materialism can lead to an analysis that is not dialectical but metaphysical (i.e. one-sided, isolated and subjective). Hence there have been and still are “Marxist-Leninist” groups who parrot dialectics in isolation, but use the metaphysical method in analysis and practice.

What then explicitly is dialectical meterialism? Materialism, in the Marxist sense, states that matter i.e. the total, real objective world exists independent of the human will (mind). Dialectics is as, expressed by Engels as follows:

It is . . . from the history of nature and human society that the laws of dialectics are abstracted. For they are nothing but the most general laws of these two aspects of historical development, as well as of thought itself. And indeed they can be reduced in the main to three: The law of the transformation of quantity into quality and vice-versa; The law of the interpenetration of opposites; The law of the negation of the negation.

Dialectical materialism is diametrically opposed to the idealist world outlook and the metaphysical method (previously described), which are the ideological bases for the bourgeois forces the world over. Consequently, it can be seen that proletarian political economy differs from bourgeois politicalPost too long. Click here to view the full text.



 No.19860[Reply][Last 50 Posts]

Everytime you visit /edu/, post in this thread. Tell us about what you're thinking about, what you're reading, an interesting thing you have learned today, anything! Just be sure to pop in and say hi.

Previous thread >>>/leftypol_archive/580500
Archive of previous thread
https://archive.is/saN3S

Excuse me coming through
A quick note on the video @ >>>/leftypol/1538283
Also [vid related] for archival purposes

Around the 29 minute mark Peterson criticizes Marx and Engel's for assuming that workers would magically become more productive once they took over.

This actually happened historically, most of the actually effective productivity tricks work places use now were developed by Stakhanovites.

https://soviethistory.msu.edu/1936-2/year-of-the-stakhanovite/year-of-the-stakhanovite-texts/stalin-at-the-conference-of-stakhanovites/
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 No.21881

I've started theory as history by banaji, main thrust seems to be that a mode of production isn't necessarily equal to one form of exploitation. In that vein he kinda attacks "stageism". Honestly the only "theory" I've read is a bit of Capital 1, some Marx pamphlets/speeches about commodity productions and what G. E. M. de Ste. Croix and Perry Andersen say about modes of production and commodity production in their two big books about the classical Mediterranean so some things are going over my head but I'm liking it. Feel like I might want to buy it for myself one day since this is just a copy I asked my library to get me

 No.22001

Finished Marx and Marxism by Gregory Claeys (2018). This guy is apparently a distinguished professor and expert on the history of political thought. I would have never guessed that from reading this. It seems like an even-handed take at first with direct references, but as it goes on, outrageous quotes by Lenin, Stalin, Mao pile up and the sources turn out to be spooky western cold warriors. Or there is no source at all like when he says that Marx claimed us proles to be particularly
<virtuous
or that Wilhelm Reich
<was threatened with execution by some communists for introducing these issues
Meaning "these issues":
<the proletariat’s suppressed sexual urges prevented it from achieving political consciousness.
So this Reich guy is important enough to mention, and the usual lot of Frankfurt school plonkers. Who doesn't make the cut? There is no Strumilin, no Kantorovich, no Piero Sraffa. The author talks in dismissive tone of
<the weaknesses in Marx’s economics
but almost nowhere describes the economics of Marx, never mind some actual criticism. There is nothing here on the transformation problem, despite the length of this book. A few sentences on the tendency of the rate of profit to fall is all you will get here (without even relating that to organic composition of capital). For the most part, he doesn't really criticize, but gestures that he is about to do criticism, like he "criticizes" Marx for his
<‘scientific’ nature of the theory of surplus value, while excluding other theories of exploitation
and then… no alternative theory of exploitation follows after this. He doesn't care to make an actual argument for his positions. Just assert, assert, assert. What is his realistic alternative to Marxism?
<Pleas for a universal basic income become increasingly plausible as we move towards both more skeletal welfare systems and a persistent shortage of well-paid jobs.
Uneducated person that I am, my guess would be that an establishment that is hostile towards decent welfare is also hostile to the idea of a guaranteed basic income, and will do no more than copy the name to mislabel a policy (meaning you are ✌guaranteed✌ the ✌universal✌ income as long as no exceptiPost too long. Click here to view the full text.

 No.22018


 No.22040

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>>19860
I've been reading Caroline Elkins' book Legacy of Violence: A History of the British Empire recently, and I thought I'd talk about it a bit. No PDF or Epub, because I have it in hardback.

The book is actually just as much a history of liberalism as a history of the British Empire, and it's fascinating seeing how the liberal mindset came into existence. Reading the examples from the book, you can really see where the paternalistic British liberal originated, with the idea that we must save the global south from themselves. Hence, African leaders famously complaining about how when China turns up they get a power plant, and when Britain turns up they get a lecture; it was the same back then, but Britain actually had the hard power to back up their rhetoric.

It also explains how Britain's use of force changed between the 18th and 20th centuries, with Britain preferring a "hands-off" approach in the 19th century which gradually failed as Germany, the USA, and the Russian Empire began to industrialise and compete for territory (there's an interesting parallel with America and China in the 21st century, too). Occasionally news of some atrocity that was comitted by the British Army (or one of the private companies they got to manage the colonies, such as the East India Company or the Royal Africa Company) would reach home, and there would inevitably be debates about it in parliament- which usually ended with the crimes being somehow justified and then forgotten about, and occasionally with the perpetrators turned into heroes (the 1857 Indian rebellion and the 1865 Morant Bay rebellion are two good example from the book).

The book isn't specifically Marxist, but is still well worth reading from what I've seen so far.

 No.22042

I want to write a leftypedia article.
If I'll do it it will probably be regarding fascistoid regimes myth and lies regarding the QoL in their nations.
Like, did you know that the only nazi anti-unemployment work program that had any measurable success was such because it obtained shadow funds?



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 No.20974[Reply]

Post all the studies in here that undermine capitalism. Post the title, a summary of the content and share either a link to or a PDF of the study in question.

Capitalism and extreme poverty: A global analysis of real wages, human height, and mortality since the long 16th century
< The common notion that extreme poverty is the “natural” condition of humanity and only declined with the rise of capitalism rests on income data that do not adequately capture access to essential goods.
<Data on real wages suggests that, historically, extreme poverty was uncommon and arose primarily during periods of severe social and economic dislocation, particularly under colonialism.
<The rise of capitalism from the long 16th century onward is associated with a decline in wages to below subsistence, a deterioration in human stature, and an upturn in premature mortality.
<In parts of South Asia, sub-Saharan Africa and Latin America, wages and/or height have still not recovered.
<Where progress has occurred, significant improvements in human welfare began only around the 20th century. These gains coincide with the rise of anti-colonial and socialist political movements.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305750X22002169
3 posts omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.21469

Inflation Revelation: How Outsized Corporate Profits Drive Rising Costs
<A new report claims “resounding evidence” shows that high corporate profits are a main driver of ongoing inflation, and companies continue to keep prices high even as their inflationary costs drop.
<The report, compiled by the progressive Groundwork Collaborative thinktank, found corporate profits accounted for about 53% of inflation during last year’s second and third quarters. Profits drove just 11% of price growth in the 40 years prior to the pandemic, according to the report.
https://groundworkcollaborative.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/24.01.17-GWC-Corporate-Profits-Report.pdf

 No.21477

>This study compared capitalist and socialist countries in measures of the physical quality of life (PQL), taking into account the level of economic development. The World Bank was the principal source of statistical data for 123 countries (97 per cent of the world's population) (…) All PQL measures improved as economic development increased. In 28 of 30 comparisons between countries at similar levels of economic development, socialist countries showed more favorable PQL outcomes.

 No.21478

<Life after Communism: the facts
<Throughout the entire Yeltsin transition period, flight of capital away from Russia totalled between $1 and $2 billion US every month. • Each year from 1989 to 2001 there was a fall of approximately 8% in Russia’s productive assets. • Although Russia is largely an urban society, 3 out of every 4 people grow some of their own food in order to be able to survive. • Male life expectancy went from 64.2 years in 1989 to 59.8 in 1999. The drop in female life expectancy was less severe from 74.5 to 72.8 years. • The increase from 1990 to 1999 in the percentage of people living on less than $1 a day was greater in the former communist countries (3.7%) than anywhere else in the world. • The number of people living in ‘poverty’ in the former Soviet Republics rose from 14 million in 1989 to 147 million even prior to the crash of the rouble in 1998.
https://newint.org/features/2004/04/01/facts

 No.21479

Does anyone here remember some publication by the IMF where they basically officially admitted that neoliberalism failed? It was posted on /leftypol/ a couple years ago and I forgot to save it

 No.22041

https://jacobin.com/2012/12/the-red-and-the-black/
>Thus, when Western economists descended on the former Soviet bloc after 1989 to help direct the transition out of socialism, their central mantra, endlessly repeated, was “Get Prices Right.”

>But a great deal of contrary evidence had accumulated in the meantime. Around the time of the Soviet collapse, the economist Peter Murrell published an article in the Journal of Economic Perspectives reviewing empirical studies of efficiency in the socialist planned economies. These studies consistently failed to support the neoclassical analysis: virtually all of them found that by standard neoclassical measures of efficiency, the planned economies performed as well or better than market economies.


>Murrell pleaded with readers to suspend their prejudices:


<The consistency and tenor of the results will surprise many readers. I was, and am, surprised at the nature of these results. And given their inconsistency with received doctrines, there is a tendency to dismiss them on methodological grounds. However, such dismissal becomes increasingly hard when faced with a cumulation of consistent results from a variety of sources.


>First he reviewed eighteen studies of technical efficiency: the degree to which a firm produces at its own maximum technological level. Matching studies of centrally planned firms with studies that examined capitalist firms using the same methodologies, he compared the results. One paper, for example, found a 90% level of technical efficiency in capitalist firms; another using the same method found a 93% level in Soviet firms. The results continued in the same way: 84% versus 86%, 87% versus 95%, and so on.


>Then Murrell examined studies of allocative efficiency: the degree to which inputs are allocated among firms in a way that maximizes total output. One paper found that a fully optimal reallocation of inputs would increase total Soviet output by only 3%-4%. Another found that raising Soviet efficiency to US standards would increase its GNP by all of 2%. A third produced a range of estimates as low as 1.5%. The highest number found in any of the Soviet studies was 10%. As Murre
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 No.10481[Reply]

Less about the parasocial more about the signal.

Less about subscribing to an individual podcast, more about listening to individual episodes and why that episode resonated.

Not videos. This is a chance for you to educate yourself while working, doing chores or exercising.

I'll go first. This episode of politics theory other was memorable because it made me reconsider the intersection of sex and politics, particularly as someone who sees themselves as becoming more skeptical about everything surrounding idpol as it's being co-opted and weaponized.

https://play.acast.com/s/politicstheoryother/tag%3Asoundcloud%2C2010%3Atracks%2F1136311165
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 No.21361

The Intifada Podcast discusses Dugin, part 1. It's pretty educational, they give a lot of historical context that most people will be unaware of. Two years ago was the time for this episode.

 No.21529

>>13027
when im working full time and with long commutes audiobooks and good podcasts are a great alternative, stressing the purity of the book is counterproductive when most people do nothing to educate themselves. also plenty of people who have trouble reading for various other reasons that are more likely to listen to a podcast, i find its helpful to be familiar with a range of educational podcasts to be able to recommend to people who are sharp and curious but dont read

 No.21998

You better appreciate this anons, it took some time to figure out how to shrink the mp3
American exception recent Patreon episode. Why is it notable? It includes a close reading of brand new less redacted transcripts of the testimony of James Jesus Angleton from the 1975 Church Commitee Hearings. This is the guy who on his deathbed admitted that they thought they were kings of the world and admitted that he was going to hell. Not much consolation to Indonesian communists.
>TLDR Here's previously unknown specifics on how Israel exerted control on US foreign policy beyond Presidential authority.
The first half of the episode is nbd also, just Col Lawrence Wilkerson admitting culpability for misleading the world and the UN on WMD.

 No.22012

>>21998
Here's the follow up to the last episode: because of the explosive contents of the newly unredacted Angleton Church Committee testimony Dr Aaron Good convened a panel of experts for discussion.
>There are two separate monuments to Angleton in Israel
>"You have to think of James Jesus Angleton as an Israeli agent in the US government" at or beyond the level of President
These podcasts lay out the history of the US/Israel relationship at the highest levels and explain why the US + UK are willing to crash the Rules Based International Order to defend Israel today

 No.22037

>>21998
took me a while to get thru the first one. interesting point made about the compartmentalisation of the intelligence agency. angle ton had the Israeli account. which was sealed off from the Arabists. Zionists often argue that because these state dept arabists exist, they're a persecuted minority, and it shows the US and UK was always hostile to zionism. but they misread a state can have different factions supporting different interests. going to get thru the other one later



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 No.7295[Reply][Last 50 Posts]

i'm curious to learn about him, how catastrophic was he for soviet agriculture or was he actually not all that bad? i'd appreciate some reading material about this matter too thanks
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 No.20930

>>20928
That is not what horizontal gene transfer means.
>The experiment carried out by Lysenko has neither been verified nor disproved by anyone else.
According to Lysenko wheat would regularly produce rye grains without human intervention. Strange how this never seems to have happened again in the history of agriculture.
>You are obviously hyperfocusing on this one experiment
I am hyper focusing on the things he actually wrote. Otherwise you will just claim that he discovered epigenetics, despite there being no connection to his theory of creative darwinism.
>all of Lysenko's work
How he treated cows better and whether or not that lead to more milk isn't relevant.

 No.21138

I now know why all of you are so mad
https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-4078

 No.22019


 No.22021

>>20920
>Can’t attack the theory of evolution by natural selection
<Instead attack a liberal social policy dressed up as being something something SCIENCE even though Darwin himself rejected social darwinism

 No.22036

He was great, he made fruit trees grow in Moscow

Irrelevant link dump https://academic.oup.com/plcell/advance-article/doi/10.1093/plcell/koae130/7658667?login=false



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 No.15841[Reply]

What is your position on this?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

On 26 July 1945, United States President Harry S. Truman, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and President of China Chiang Kai-shek issued the Potsdam Declaration, which outlined the terms of surrender for the Empire of Japan as agreed upon at the Potsdam Conference. This ultimatum stated if Japan did not surrender, it would face "prompt and utter destruction".[1] Some debaters focus on the presidential decision-making process, and others on whether or not the bombings were the proximate cause of Japanese surrender.

Over the course of time, different arguments have gained and lost support as new evidence has become available and as new studies have been completed. A primary and continuing focus has been on whether the bombing should be categorized as a war crime or as a crime against humanity. There is also the debate on the role of the bombings in Japan's surrender and the U.S.'s justification for them based upon the premise that the bombings precipitated the surrender. This remains the subject of both scholarly and popular debate, with revisionist historians advancing a variety of arguments. In 2005, in an overview of historiography about the matter, J. Samuel Walker wrote, "the controversy over the use of the bomb seems certain to continue".[2] Walker stated, "The fundamental issue that has divided scholars over a period of nearly four decades is whether the use of the bomb was necessary to achieve victory in the war in the Pacific on terms satisfactory to the United States."[2]

Supporters of the bombings generally assert that they caused the Japanese surrender, preventing massive casualties on both sides in the planned invasion of Japan: Kyūshū was to be invaded in November 1945 and Honshū four months later. It was thought Japan would not surrender unless there was an overwhelming demonstration of destructive capability. Those who oppose the bombings argue it was militarily unnecessary,[3] inherently immoral, a war crime, or a form of state terrorism.[4] Critics believe a naval blockade and conventional bombings would have forced Japan to surrender unconditionally.[5] Some critics believe Japan was more motivated to surrender by the Soviet Union's invasion ofPost too long. Click here to view the full text.
55 posts and 11 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.22032

>>22026
>the first atomic bomb hit before the soviets declared war.
True, however the key fact here is that the Japanese commission to investigate Hiroshima hadn't gotten back to the Government on their findings, at best all they knew was that another city was destroyed, but given how regular firebombing already wiped out cities before, it changed nothing, as radiation was not well understood as an impact, and they didn't even know it was a singular bomb until days after Nagasaki was also wiped out, and they surrendered around that time.
In essence; The Japanese only lost hope of fighting back after the USSR joined because losing cities to bombs was already something they were used to, and it was honestly pointless, as the smashing of the Manchurian Army forces and the USSR's rapid island hopping (crushing large garrisons with ease) from the North meant the Japanese military defenders would have been smashed quickly and with little to show for it.

A good video on the topic discusses this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmtGal69BvQ
>Why the Japanese ARMY Still Didn’t Want to Surrender After Being Nuked Twice

 No.22033

>>22032
>the Japanese only lost hope when the soviets declared war.
The thing is the people on the home islands didn't really care because for intensive purpose it was Manchuria getting invaded not them. secondly a good chunk of the officers didn't want to surrender either only through the emperors plea did they choose too. and even though atomic bombs are a whole another beast compared to fire bombing at least with fire bombing at least you had the chance to escape and if you survived your where mostly fine after words. one the ground of Hiroshima it was observed that the survivors survived from radiation sickness afterwords kill a lot of them.

 No.22034

>>22031
>>Muh both sides!
Nobody was saying this but the delete-happy ML janny already got on the case and deleted everything as usual, lmfao.

 No.22046

>>22044
>both Churchill and FDR wanted Stalin to declare war on the Japanese
Churchill did because he didn't know about the bomb. FDR did because he sought good relations with the USSR. FDR died conveniently for the US establishment, as they did not like his policies that supported workers rights and sought to have the war end with good relations between the USA and USSR, it's why they forced him to start his final term with Harry Truman. Truman was just a few seig heils short of being a fascist himself and he hated the Soviet Union and he didn't want to uphold the agreements Roosevelt had made with Stalin. He wanted to use the bombs to both scare Stalin and end the war with Japan surrendering to the USA, but mostly failed with the USSR still getting back its territories and Stalin being completely unphased by the threat of something he was already aware of and preparing for.

>>22035

> the USSR after 1930 totally didn't have a capitalist mode of production and bourgeois social relations.
No, it did not.
>I thought I was on /edu/?
Yes, you are, which is why your bad faith shit-lib takes are garbage.
>ML janny
<wvobbly
LMFAO
>nobody was saying this
You verbatim called WW-2 an inter-bourgieoisie conflict, which is the exact same narrative both-sideist ideologues use to cry about "muh russha bad" relative to Ukraine, and is also the same anti-communist narrative used to equivocate Nazi Germany and the USSR.
So yes this is /edu/ and bad faith takes like this belong in the trash.

 No.22047

>>22033
>the people on the home islands didn't really care because for intensive purpose it was Manchuria getting invaded not them
The PEOPLE didn't care, but the people didn't know much about the nuclear bombs either. The Imperial GOVERNMENT cared, because as I explained, Manchuria was one of Japan's most powerful military forces, and it was crushed in days, and the USSR literally island hopped onto the Northern islands of the Imperial Japanese archipelago.
>atomic bombs are a whole another beast compared to fire bombing at least with fire bombing at least you had the chance to escape and if you survived your where mostly fine after words. one the ground of Hiroshima it was observed that the survivors survived from radiation sickness afterwords kill a lot of them.
Yes, after-effects that were not properly catalogued, widely known or well understood until long after Japan's surrender.



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