[Last 50 Posts]
WHAT IS MULTIPOLARISMMultipolarism, in its most basic form, posits a world where multiple powers (countries or entities) exist in a state of relative equilibrium, challenging the unipolar hegemony led mainly by the United States post-Cold War. The emergence of China, the reassertion of Russia, the rise of regional powers like India, Brazil, and South Africa, among others, suggest a move towards this multipolar world.
BUT is it rly just Capitalism 2: Electric Boogaloo -
Neo-Dengism Edition? To what extent is multipolarism just capitalist nationalism for people not in green on this map? If the whole thrust of socialism is now just "America bad" what becomes of the classical socialist goals of workers control of the means of production, and abolishing class society?
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>>1607281>Russia's economy and society display few or none of the markers of imperialism>clearly not imperialist >If the political left fails to apply rigorous economic and social criteria to identifying imperialist countries…wew lad, don't mind if I do
<Russia<its monopolies make up 60%-70% of its economy<it has a financial oligarchy<it is a net exporter of capital<it is a part of the UN and BRICs in which both can considered be groups of capitalist countries that include other imperialist powers (USA and China)<It invaded Ukraine and annexed portions of the country showing that it has interests in creating its own territorial divisions in the world<also has the fifth largest army and is packed to the tits with nukesNot to mention the super exploitation it does to other countries such as Uzbekistan (Russian investment is around 56% there counter that with the fact that the average Uzbek wage is around a quarter to the average Russian wage).
Russia is imperialist. Nowhere nearly as big as the US but imperialist nonetheless.
Why you gotta lie campist scumbags? Just accept what you are, ie campist scumbags!
>>1607380So "campism" and "anti-americanism" are totally cool with you?
>>1607263>muh unequal development>t-they're not as advancedSee
>>1606535
<Syrian Kurds accuse Turkey of violations, Russia says peace plan on track
<The Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) accused Turkey on Thursday of launching a large land offensive targeting three villages in northeast Syria despite a truce, but Russia said a peace plan hammered out this week was going ahead smoothly.
<Under the plan, agreed by Presidents Tayyip Erdogan and Vladimir Putin, Syrian Kurdish forces are to withdraw more than 30 km (19 miles) from the Turkish border, a goal Russia’s RIA news agency, quoting an SDF official, said was already achieved.
<The deal agreed with Putin, which builds on and widens a previous U.S.-brokered ceasefire, helped end the fighting.
<Russia, a close ally of President Bashar al-Assad that has emerged as the key geopolitical player in Syria, has begun deploying military police near the Turkish border as part of the deal agreed on Tuesday in the Russian city of Sochi.
<“Everything is being implemented,” Interfax news agency quoted Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Vershinin as saying.
<RIA, citing an SDF official, said the Kurdish fighters had already withdrawn to 32 km (20 miles) away from the border. It also said the Kurds were ready to discuss joining the Syrian army once the crisis in Syria had been settled politically.
<Russia will send a further 276 military police officers and 33 units of military hardware to Syria in a week, RIA news agency cited a Defence Ministry source as saying. It also quoted Russia’s Defence Ministry as saying Russian military police had patrolled along a new 60-km (37-mile) route on the border.https://www.reuters.com/article/syria-security-idUKKBN1X319A
>>1607502I have trouble believing Russia is capable of maintaining a peace plan between Turkey and a country they wish to bully after what happened with Armenia.
>>1607502Is this supposed to be a bad thing?
<article from 2019A lot has changed in the past 4 years since then.
Turkey continues to fund mercenaries and conduct terrorist ops- something, again, which the AANES (in collaboration with the arab tribes that they are so-called "opressing" is capable of handling themselves nowadays, as pointed out here:
https://anfenglishmobile.com/rojava-syria/manbij-military-council-52-mercenaries-were-killed-102-others-injured-69240https://anfenglishmobile.com/rojava-syria/operation-security-reinforcement-in-deir-ez-zor-successfully-completed-69213that's not even getting into the fact that Turkey goes back on its statements and treaties.
https://anfenglishmobile.com/rojava-syria/sohr-turkish-border-guards-killed-and-injured-nearly-65-syrians-since-early-2023-69477>>1607507>I have trouble believing russia is capable of maintaining a peace plan between turkey given how turkey regularly attacks, you're right to be skeptical.
The fascist class traitor Putin belongs dangling from the end of a rope rather than in a portrait being admired.
>>1607541>class traitor putinhe's bourgois
though
>>1606767>>1606769>The People's Forum receives money from goldman sachsDude, why are you repeating anti-communist propaganda? Why is it a bad thing for us communists that a billionaire is committing class suicide by giving money to orgs like Codepink and the People's Forum, who very clearly wish to abolish billionaires? Do you want the people to win? Or do you wish to remain defeated, poor, unorganized, and "pure" in your theory? Because the rest of us would like very much for the people to win, and for there to be trained, capable leaders among the people who know how to win.
The TPF is teaching people Marxism-Leninism and exposing the contradictions of imperialist capitalism. What exactly have you done for the people's movement? Do you think that an anti-imperialist movement can function without money? Do you think operations like this can subsist in the middle of the belly of the beast, in New York City, with only spare change? Are you nuts? How do you think TPF has accomplished so much in a mere five years? Does it upset your purity fetish that the Grayzone and TPF receives money with which to conduct operations? Even the Black Panthers needed money and had wealthy benefactors…
https://www.liberationnews.org/journalists-or-witch-hunters-examining-the-new-york-times-shameful-red-scare-history/https://youtu.be/G4-OAwIQHxk
<Of particular concern to the United States should be the increasingly apparent signs of potential convergence between the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF)—Washington’s partner in the war against the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS)—and the Assad regime’s chief sponsor, Russia.
<The Kurdish People’s Protection Units (YPG) has a history of opportunistically working with the Assad regime. Underscoring this point, a Kurdish YPG general told this author that following recent developments, “There are many things that we are working on with the Syrian regime and Russia. In the future, there will be great success between us.”
<YPG leadership is said to be reassessing the strategic importance of its ties with what is an increasingly unreliable Washington, and is looking to further diversify its portfolio of international partners, with an eye toward strengthening ties with Russia.
<The YPG struck a deal with Russia and the Assad regime allowing them to move their forces into areas previously under Kurdish control to deter Turkey and its Syrian National Army proxy forces from pressing further into territory east of the Euphrates.
<The SDF’s political wing has confirmed, that it is engaged in discussions with Moscow over the terms of any future reconciliation with the Assad regime.
<Ultimately, it was the US abandonment in October 2019 of the SDF and its accompanying ‘astrategic approach’ toward areas east of the Euphrates, and indeed the broader Syrian war, that accelerated the SDF’s drift toward the Russia-Assad orbit.
<As the YPG general explained, “There is no solution for us, and we need an international force behind us, that is why we are making agreements with Assad and Russia.” https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/amid-us-uncertainty-in-syria-kurdish-ypg-eyes-bolstering-ties-with-russia/
>>1607541If you deposed Putin right now and installed a libby peace dove, what you would have is the total dismemberment of Russia and a further reduction of their standard of living. Even the Russian Communist Party recognizes that if Russia were to be vanquished by neo-Nazi controlled Ukraine/NATO, it would constitute a total calamity for the sovereignty of Russia.
https://youtu.be/uRuDwuv36z4 Those neoliberal imperialist demons at The Atlantic even admitted that their desire for Russia is to be dismembered, and they articulated as much in their article entitled "Decolonize Russia."
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/russia-putin-colonization-ukraine-chechnya/639428/ It is WRONG that Putin invaded, but it was even worse that Jens Stoltenberg or whatever the fuck his name is, secretary of NATO, had heard Putin's very legitimate demand that Ukraine not be added to NATO, and Jens said, no, you don't get to tell us what to do, we get to do what we want; that's a non-starter. Jens of NATO did this knowing that he had the full backing of the U.S. because NATO is an appendage of U.S imperialism and has been the instrument of contemporary imperialism in Libya, Afghanistan, and Yugoslavia (all of which, by the way, had been described by the so-called "Free" (imperialist-capitalist) Press as being "humanitarian interventions").
>>1606712>>1606769>>1606769>>1607579I hate it when the contrarian Zizek says things that are correct. Stupid RADLIBS are getting mad in this dumbass thread over the fact that the Grayzone, or that TPF is receiving money from billionaires … MOTHERFUCKER. HOW. THE FUCK. DO YOU THINK. A MOVEMENT. IS. CULTIVATED? You INFANTILE RETARDS cannot seem to figure out that in order to have consistently principled, well-disciplined leaders of the working class that you have to cultivate such leaders, and to cultivate leaders of the working class, you need to train them, you need to have them in reading groups, and you need to give them the resources they need to do organizing, because the necessary experience that is needed to be able to lead a working class movement to victory in a time of true, revolutionary crisis, is not gained via dreams, it is not gained through shitposting on X or leftypol or reddit. It is not acquired by merely uploading polemical videos to youtube and tiktok. If you want good revolutionary leaders, it takes time, it takes money, lots of money, and it takes humility. YOU FUCKING ASSHOLES HAVE NEITHER OF THESE THINGS. SO SHUT THE FUCK UP.
>>1606769>Cope harder bitch. If Grayzone is so principled why are they so secretive of showing who funds them?The recent NYTIMES trash went out of its way to "expose" that a billionaire gave his money to Codepink and TPF, but notice that the NYTIMES has no problem with billionaires funding the Democratic Party. Why do you suppose that is? It is because TPF poses a threat to imperialist capitalism. It is because the TPF exposes the role that NYTIMES plays. It is because NYTIMES has always been on the side of imperialism and needs to cultivate this illusion of politics that we call bourgeois elections, where they obfuscate the fact that both the Democrats and the Republicans are funded by the same racist pedophiles. TPF and Codepink tell people that the Democrats are liars just like the Republicans, that Biden is a warmongerer and a criminal, and NYTIMES rushes in to "save the day" from the billionaire who has "Chinese Ties" … Literally every fucking business man has ties to China in the current day and age because it is one of the fastest growing economies in the world, because so much of American manufacturing has moved to China, because China is actually a relevant country and will remain a relevant country for years to come, whereas the United States is crumbling and collapsing.
The fact of the matter is: the popular moral conceptions of the day are the moral conceptions of the ruling class. If you think it is morally difficult that leftists who *actually* want to get stuff done may occasionally receive money from a billionaire that is committing class suicide, then you have identified with the other billionaires that disapprove of class suicide, that disapprove of advancing the class war in the interest of overthrowing the rule of the billionaire class, that, in-fact, seek to frustrate the efforts of the communists.
>>1606769>>1606767>>https://fashbusters.wordpress.com/2021/11/02/does-goldman-sachs-fund-the-peoples-forum-psl-codepink-aipac-and-vijay-prashads-tricontinental/>so more shitlib groups that are funded by goldman sachs? what does this have to do with gray zone again?Why do you consider Vijay Prashad, Tricontinnental, TPF to be "shitlib" groups? Vijay is literally the most principled anti-communist Marxist-Leninist in the current day and age. Tell me what makes him, or TPF, or Tricon "shitlib"?
>>1607519Again, how is them forming a truce between assad and russia a bad thing? This is probably more of an indicator that they're not CIA backed.
Are you suggesting they're becoming "reliant" on them? Because as seen here:
>>1607519This isn't the case.
>>1607364Thank God, please stop commentating on things besides asinine e-celeb drama or your cringe /k/ friends. You’re not equipped for it
>>1607667<"World Knowledge": The Russian leadership has repeatedly claimed that they face a historic opportunity to end U.S. hegemony and reorganize the international order. Your introduction to the meeting just now reflects this trend of thought. In terms of Russia's current international situation, especially when it is heavily sanctioned by the United States and the West, do you think Russia is getting closer or further away from this goal?
>Wu Dahui: The Russian leadership indeed believes that the prospects for a multi-polar world structure are becoming increasingly clear, and now a strong force is needed to guide it. Russia believes that the decline of U.S. and Western hegemony is unstoppable, and the rise of emerging powers as the main center of power in the world is equally unstoppable. China is the main factor leading the world to form a new center of power. In this process, if China, Russia, India, ASEAN and other countries can join hands, they will effectively promote the accelerated formation of multipolarity.
>At the same time, the composition of a country's core competitiveness is also changing. The world can no longer rely on military hard power to determine the world as it did in the past. In addition to factors such as population, territory, economy, military strength, strategic intentions, and national will, there must also be taking into account the level of national governance and decision-making capabilities. At present, the gap between Russia's power and China and the United States is getting wider and wider, and there has not yet been a trend of shrinking again. Its scientific and technological innovation and global influence are all shrinking. However, Russia still has irreplaceable hard power. One is its energy supply capacity, and the other is its grain production capacity. Measured by comprehensive production capacity of oil, natural gas, coal, etc., Russia remains the world's largest energy exporter. Russia has also restored its status as a major grain exporter that was once weakened by the Ukraine crisis. In the first half of this year, grain exports reached more than 70 million tons. Many countries in Africa and the Middle East cannot get rid of their dependence on Russia for grain.
>Relying on the world's largest nuclear arsenal and a permanent seat on the United Nations Security Council, Russia will be an important pole in the multi-polar world and occupy a place in the competition between major powers. However, its development path cannot be copied. From a historical perspective, Russia’s previous rises and renaissances have not been characterized by economic development. From the time of Peter the Great in the early 18th century, to defeating Napoleon at the Battle of Borodino in 1812, participating in and even leading the creation of the Vienna System in 1815, and then to the Crimean War in 1854, Russia has been the number one military power in Europe and even the world. They are accustomed to speaking based on military strength.
>Now that Russia is still developing along historical inertia, it is difficult to integrate into the Western-dominated international system, especially the global economic and scientific and technological innovation system. In future international competition and strategic games, Russia cannot achieve the goal of reorganizing the international order on its own. It needs more than ever to shape an international environment that is favorable to itself through cooperation with other countries.
<"World Knowledge": The West defines China and Russia as "revisionist countries in the current international order." However, judging from the consistent discourse of the Russian leadership, it is more interested in overthrowing the current order and starting over, and confronting China from within the current order. Their ideas for reform and improvement seem to be different. Do you think the existence of this difference will affect the effectiveness of strategic cooperation between China and Russia?
>Wu Dahui: In the formation and development process of the current international order, China has always been a participant, beneficiary and contributor. Russia believes that the current international order is dominated by the West and is increasingly based on rules set by the United States. It has entered a state of "exhaustion" and even "chaos" and is unable to support the normal and reasonable operation of the world, and must undergo root surgery. These are different from our views and opinions. However, the two countries have a basic consensus on opposing international hegemony and bullying and promoting democratization of international relations, which forms the basis of strategic coordination.
>China and Russia have a common border of more than 4,300 kilometers. As the saying goes, "neighbors cannot be chosen." The two countries can only be on good terms and not on bad terms. The United States' global strategy has moved towards "dual containment" of China and Russia. At the same time, it attempts to divide the world into Western and non-Western camps based on each country's stance on the Ukraine issue. China and Russia have been classified into the non-Western camp. Such a situation leaves China and Russia with no choice but to continuously strengthen strategic coordination. Of course, the era we live in cannot achieve absolute security by playing with the balance of major powers and using one country to balance another. The prospects for national strength development and major power competition still depend to a large extent on the level of domestic governance and development.
>>1607364This. Saying that it's "Funded by Goldman Sachs" makes it sound like an investment bankers are directing mutual funds to literally who leftist forums to either get profit or as some sort of long term glowop campaign. What actually happens is that an Indian dirigist contributed private money to state capitalist shills like Grayzone
>>1607583But anon you should always be good. Good will prevail because it just will because good is nicer than bad. :)
>>1607852Probably because a large amount of international trade is still done in US dollars and they remain extremely useful.
bump
>>1607579BASEDthat's the video I tried to find and post
Left-Communist Multipolarity: Amazing, wonderful, groundbreaking, gamechanging
"ML" Multipolarity: Ebertism, Class Collaboration, Liquidationism, Anti-Socialism
>Nevertheless, testimonies on the positions of Bordiga concerning the result of the war are contradictory and show great ambiguities. It seemed that Bordiga certainly believed in the victory of the Axis and that the victory of Fascism would be for him "a necessary phase through which should pass capitalism in all the countries ", and that "the victory of Allied would have made only delay this inevitable process". Well more, he would have wished "the defeat of the true capitalism, i.e. American, and not that of German type".
>According to the press of June 1944 (an article of Bandiera rossa, taken again by the Stampa of Turin and the Gazette of Lausanne of June 14), whereas the Red Army made fulgurating break-through in Eastern Europe, Bordiga would have affirmed that the triumph of the Stalin’s army would be "the moving proletarian revolution". A press release of the Bordigst press in the North (Prometeo, July 25, 1944, in French) formally contradicted alleged prosovietic Bordiga’s sympathies. It seems that at this period, Bordiga refused not only to join the socialist Party, which had discreetly made him the proposal, but refused any advance of the Americans who, installed in the South of Italy divided in two parts, would have agreed to use the prestige of Bordiga to counter the development of the Italian CP of Togliatti.
>>1610327>>1610326>>1610325>>1610323stop confusing soviet realpolitik from 1955 with present day conditions
>>1610386soviet realpolitik is when left communism
uhh based??
>>1610421>more communist thanlel
>>1610386American imperialism has declined in relevancy, true.
>>1610425Yes we are now dealing with Chinese imperialism.
>>1610427who's "we", what does this chinese "imperialism" look like and how are you "dealing" with it?
>>1610453cool blogpost, can you answer though?
>>1610427No, we aren't, you fucking moron.
>>1610453>>1610456He meant to say he's a boujie baizou.
Crackers always going around to everyone else "remember the good time?" No I don't cracker. Your time will never come again.
>>1610427this is what liberals actually believes
>>1610427China's imperialism is still small fry compared with us/eu. thats not the problem. the problem is they are still capitalist
>anons ITT denying the fact that China’s foreign policy includes its own adventurism into exploiting the African continent
>>1610323Ziggas are always in a superposition between ᴉuᴉlossnW and Bordiga
Multipolarism is Kautskyism.
Multipolarism is not "the battle against US imperialism", it is the striving towards a world of great capitalist states existing side by site without conflict. This is the ultra-imperialism of Kautsky. It is also retarded and not in line with how capitalism works in reality.
Bordiga making retarded statements is seperate from it being or not being in line with multipolarity. It is not.
>>1610789Try not to make a false equivalence challenge:
FAILED
>>1610453No you're not alone, you have a pathology which is predictable and they expect from you.
You'll lash out at your betters in your anger, but luckily your life is meant to come to nothing.
>>1610746i dont deny that but its still minor compared with the us/eu
>>1610327fake ultras, libs
>>1610427>Chinese imperialismDoesn't exist, has never existed, probably never will exist
>>1610789Correct, actually. South KKKorea and other pets of the AmeriKKKan Empire like Israel are not subject to unequal exchange like the rest of the Global South because they have completely thrown their lot in with Uncle Sam and exist to contain whatever camp the AmerKKKans don't like.
>>1617463It's people from imperial nations running scared that "they'll do to us what we did to them". It's liberalism and chauvinism.
>>1617470Maybe some of the people buying into the narrative are scared of China, but not the people pushing it. The propagandists just represent Western imperialists who want to slice up China, divide it into little client state fiefdoms, and take direct control over its resources and production, much in the same way they intend to do to Russia. The rhetoric is hysterical and jingoistic, but the actual motive is pure expansionism.
>>1617474>The rhetoric is hysterical and jingoistic, but the actual motive is pure expansionismIt amounts to the same thing.
>>1610427The form of imperialism in our era is the global reserve currency. From the currently available information, China has zero plans to make the Yuan one, because they see how badly it's going for America.
>Pope Francis has slammed the West for murdering Gaddafi and Saddam Hussein and leaving 'organised anarchy' behind as well as saying that ISIS emerged as a result of 'an unfortunate Western choice'
>"It is true. Of the consequences of colonialism and, in particular, the appropriation of their natural resources. But also of the failure of the West in its attempt to import its own type of democracy into certain countries with a culture, I won't say tribal, but of a similar nature. Let's think about Libya, which seems to be able to be led only by very strong personalities like Gaddafi. A Libyan told me that they once had only one Gaddafi, but now they have fifty-three. The Gulf War was a true disgrace, not to say one of the worst cruelties. Saddam Hussein was certainly no little angel, on the contrary, but Iraq was a fairly stable country. Warning: I am not defending Gaddafi or Hussein. But what did the war leave behind? Organized anarchy and more war. Therefore I believe that we must not export our democracy to other countries, but rather help them develop a process of democratic maturation according to their characteristics. Don't go to war to import a democracy that their people are unable to assimilate. There are countries that have a monarchical system and that will probably never accept a democracy, but we can certainly contribute to ensuring that there is greater participation. In any case, I consider myself ignorant when it comes to international politics, but I believe that the appearance of ISIS is based on an unfortunate Western choice."https://www.lastampa.it/vatican-insider/2023/10/23/news/il_papa_e_i_migranti_prigionieri_nei_ghetti-13802666/
The last time we had strong multipolarity, it ended up in two world wars. The reason Pax Romana, Pax Mongolica, Pax Britannica, and Pax Americana are named that way is because there was one dominant power keeping trade routes open, and not having huge conflicts with rivals.
multipolarism is a recipie for geopolitical conflict
>>1679071You can't oppress the world to unite it. Peace based on injustice is war.
>>1679071>>1679071we also got multiple successful socialist revolutions
also the conditions are also vastly different, a handful of colonial powers competing isnt the same as the many regional powers emerging among a globalized and a lot more industrialized world
>>1606942>Put simply, the United States, as every country, is not a product of genocide and slavery, nor is it a product of freedom and liberty, it is a product of class antagonisms and struggle, in this regard it is not exceptionalThis is a really weird, self-defeating argument. The genocide of indigenous peoples is a manifestation of the struggle and class antagonisms spoken of here, as relating to imperialism. MIDWESTERN MARX IS TROTSKYIST BECAUSE THEY REVISED LENIN'S THEORY OF IMPERIALISM SO THAT THEY CAN IGNORE THE FACT THAT THE GREAT WEALTH OF THE UNITED STATES IS DERIVED FROM IMPERIALIST EXPLOITATION OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLES!
>>1707530
>its all on afghanistan
what a brainlet take
>>1679071And both world wars resulted in the expansion of communist power drastically. The third and final world war will see the destruction of the west once and for all
Multipolarism is the heart of a heartless world, the opium of the leftist.
>>1707932retard
>>1716904Its revisionism for idiots who don't even know the theory to begin with. First as tragedy then as farce.
>>1716964>multipolarity is revisionismIts impressive how I have never seen an actual good take or good reasoning from anti multipolarista crowd, best they can do is the purity screeching
>>1716904Nah, it's just ML capitalist realism, but now they through out the red paint dye and are now just pelting the flag in literal shit
>>1716964>>1717236sorry firstoids but the treats WILL cease and you WILL live through revolutionary conditions
>>1717246Notice that your understanding of things is so negative and warped, shifted towards genuinely cowardly self-loathing
(you may be pretending to be from a "non-Western" country but we both know you're likely a Anglophone cracker trying to cope online by shilling for brown nationalists jnstead of doing anything) and a meme understanding of politics (le political football like most retards) that you genuinely think socialism would be bad for workers
You faggots really out to join the other fascists if your prerogative is to rant and rave at proles from the West that """socialism""" unironically means white genocide and mass poverty
people who are against multipolarism reject the political struggle. they're basically anarchists.
>>1717300Anarchists are based
Beats being a liberal with dystopian characteristics
>>1717300They are anarchists who are basically liberals.
>>1725562Come on, They are the least likely. List someone more likely, I'll go first. The UK anarcho bruvva who gets to every conflict zone and always nato aligned.
>>1725582look at how
utterly bourgeois he is!
>>1725624Would you say Engels glowed because he owned factories?
>>1725624>They glow famJT literally got harassed by glowies at his house for making videos about the CIA.
>>1725562>>1725624keep going the more times you repeat a lie the stronger it gets bro.
>>1725634yes his coworkers showed up confused
>>1725633Fedrich Glowgels
>>1725624> SecondThoguht has a wealthy family in the fossil fuels sector by his own admission>Yugopnik is a drunk white collar guy in a managerial position by his own admissionFidel Castro was both a white collar dude (lawyer) and the son of a plantation owner.
>>1725661Fidel Castro actually risked his skin and led a revolution though instead of asking working class people to donate to patreon/livestream/subscribe to groundnews/buy atlasvpn so that their money can go into a random black hole of "content creation"
>>1725667Well there isn't revolution in any of those countries right now, nor does one appear likely. So explain to my why doing agitprop and producing communist media isn't contributing to the movement. You realize that every remotely successful communist movement in the past has generated its own media landscape correct? It's literally part of the superstructure of the working class movement. Would you prefer that we produce nothing and just allow everything to be dominated by anticommunist narratives?
>>1725670There are plenty of leftist content creators who don't advertise schlock or ask for donations, and on top of that they aren't already rich like Secondthought/Yugopnik
>>1725672it doesn't preclude them because Fidel was the son of a plantation owner but he was based
>>1725673>There are plenty of leftist content creators who don't advertise schlock or ask for donationsWhat's your issue with this exactly? How else are they supposed to support their work?
>>1725675The bourgeois corporations they critique pay them
>>1725661And I even heard that Fidel worked with this Doctor guy from Argentina. I forget his name…
>>1725680what is a conflict of interest? Why is a "communist" telling me ground news offers a "fair and balanced" account of bias in news media? Why are they telling me ground news is good at "catching both left and right biases!" It's literal bothsides centrist neoliberal shlock that they're paid to advertise. And they slip this right into the middle of their content. Because they're paid to.
Imagine simping this desperately for breadtube shills
>>1725680They are a bourgeois organ
>>1725690But they used their labor for that money. They worked for everything they had. They sold their labor to youtube for wage and used that wage to make more wage.
>>1725690You know what a grift is, yes? You think that all of them have made up their political views? If not then it is not a grift, dumbass. Mere success isn't automatically a grift.
>>1725677So, just like every other worker? Or who pays you a wage? lmao
>>1725690Look socialism isn't a poverty cult, sure maybe it would be better if they gave everything to the poor and lived like monks but more leftist creators is good even if they're rich or have rich backgrounds (you know like Lenin and Engels)
>>1725700>It's not a poverty cult Correct
<therefore the rich small business owner advertising neoliberal propaganda is definitely a communistwrong
>>1725704if he delivers good socialist agitprop it doesn't even matter what is inside their head
>>1725688>what is a conflict of interest?It's only a conflict of interest if their sponsors care about what they say and try to influence their content. Given that they're some of the only leftist ecelebs that consistently oppose the US/NATO at every turn, openly praise AES including the USSR, and straight up said that there's no such thing as an Israeli civilian, I'm not at all convinced of this.
>It's literal bothsides centrist neoliberal shlock that they're paid to advertise.Who cares? They have a whole hour dedicated to pushing communist ideas but you're put off by a 30 second ad for a product you don't like? How does that negate the rest of their content?
>>1725690So you have to be poor to be a communist?
>It's pure grift.If it's a grift then it's a bad one considering they've chosen one of the smallest most niche audiences in the world.
>>1725695>They worked for everything they had. All 3 of them hire editors and possibly also script writers
>>1725707except it's not good agitprop, and it has advertisements in the middle of it
>>1725712if it's not good agitprop then attack it for those reasons instead of crying that they make money
>>1725710>So you have to be poor to be a communist?No you don't have to be poor but it's very obvious when someone is telling you that ground news is unbiased that they're trying to sell you a product
>>1725715Ok and? Just ignore the ads like everyone else does
>>1725695You cannot seriously be calling the valorization of viewer-consumption waged remuneration, or 'earning a wage'
>>1725715bro just install the extension that skips that part
>>1725723wait is there an extension that skips the in-video ads?
>>1725714the reason it's bad agitprop is because they advertise neoliberal propaganda and fake privacy products in the middle of their "analysis" which isn't even rooted in Marx but in a kind of "chapotraphouse but zoomer" vibes based theory
>>1725730>which isn't even rooted in MarxHow is it not rooted in Marx? Hakim especially shills like 5 book recommendations per episode, usually by Marxist authors if not Marx's own work.
>>1725730Chapo is good, if you want only Marx based analysis then do it and try to make it entertaining but without these kind of streamers/yters there would be almost no people consuming leftist content
>>1725731it's obvious it's a grift for them because on top of making far more than the average person does from voluntary donations alone, they still advertise neoliberal garbage. Meanwhile you have someone like S4A who will just spend 3 hours reading lenin at you for free and advertise nothing.
>>1725731The content they produce is just an advertisment.
>>1725734Hakim is the only one that might be good. The other two kidnapped him and are torturing him in Abu Ghraib
>>1725730>their "analysis" which isn't even rooted in Marxby which you mean isn't rooted in Heidegger or Lacan or whatever peripheral thinker who is decidedly not Marxist but certain weirdos like you insist on trying to graft onto communism
>>1725742Yugopnik literally shills Lacan and Zizek in his masculinity video
>>1725742and no, I don't mean the nazi heidgger or the freudian retard lacan. i don't care about that shit and didn't bring it up, you did
>>1725737>it's obvious it's a grift for them because on top of making far more than the average person does from voluntary donations alone, they still advertise neoliberal garbage.So, just to be clear, you are saying that in order to be a proper propagandist/educator for communism in the current media environment, you must refuse to make more than a certain amount of money and/or refuse to take money the bourgeoisie are willing to give you for making ads that don't even work?
>>1725737>Meanwhile you have someone like S4A who will just spend 3 hours reading lenin at you for free and advertise nothing.Probably why nobody listens to them. That's shit content. If I wanted to read Lenin I would read Lenin. Commentary, interviews, etc are something else entirely.
>>1725739Correct, an advertisement for communism.
grifter defense forces coming out strong tonight.
>>1725748>Correct, an advertisement for communism.no, an advertisement for fake privacy malware and fake 'unbiased' neoliberal propaganda
>>1725752>grifter defense forces coming out strong tonight. We want socialist propaganda that people will actually see, not channels that get basically no views.
>>1725752How does 30s of ads most people ignore negate an hour plus of explicitly communist commentary?
>>1725747no you shouldn't refuse money, but if you're already rich and on top of that you're advertising fake privacy software and fake "unbiased" neoliberal propaganda in the middle of your "communist" agitprop, you probably are a grifter. if you make 25k for livestreaming a video game for an hour while you barely talk about communism, and then hordes of your simps come to your defense about this, it glows.
>>1725748>That's shit content.no that's great content. a single mom who's folding laundry and changing a diaper can listen to lenin instead of having to drag out a dusty old tome from the library during her 1 hour of free time. shit content is 3 rich zoomers livestreaming donkey kong and talking about mao memes and testicles
>>1725748>Correct, an advertisement for communism.No, the content is completely irrespective of the form.
This is the lynch pin of the critique of modern consumption, for which you need to have read Adorno's The Culture Industry to peak into. It is simply the repitition of a dull economic act.
>>1725758What's wrong with Hasan? He has done great work on Palestine. I feel like you have some weird and pathological attachment with some of those online creators. Go outside and touch some grass
>>1725756>if you make 25k for livestreaming a video game for an hour while you barely talk about communismwhen did this happen
>>1725762>simping for rich grifters<actually you should touch grassactually you should actually put your skin in the game instead of defending grifters
>>1725763seriously, watch one of their livestreams and count up the donos
>>1725766did you actually count up donations to 25k or are you pulling absurd numbers out of your ass
>>1725758The only episode I saw that had Hasan they mostly talked about NATO and why it sucks lmao.
>>1725756>no that's great contentIf you want an ebook. Are you saying that communists should only produce ebooks?
>>1725756If you don't like it then don't fucking watch it, clearly some people do and it brings more people to the left
>>1725766Ok and? I don't give money to these kind of people but are you telling me you wouldn't take that money if you could? Of course you would
>>1725778>it brings more people to the leftThis is just a poor euphamism, at best, for drivinng engagement without any real understanding.
>>1725784Even if I accept your premise so what? More people on the left is good even if they have bad theory, would you prefer they go fucking watch destiny?
>>1725784You are aware that people from their fandoms have an actual track record of organizing and unionizing work places? Some of the documented starbucks unionizations were driven by some hasan fans for example.
>>1725789>More people on the left is goodNot even going to rebuttal. If you honestly believe that the spasmodic consumption of uncoordinated political content is somehow a positive driving force for revolutionary politics then you deserve the system you get, which is the one you have now.
>>1725792Utterly mad how Lenin organised a revolution without a podcast or a video essay vlog
>>1725796Yeah Lenin didn't try to reach out to normal people with pamphlets, newspapers, discussion groups, travelling Marxist teachers… Basically any method available
>>1725803No way, so you're saying…there are alternate ways of sending a message…without videos designed to perpetuate the cycle of consumption-cum-advertisment?
>>1725806>YEAH SO THE PEOPLE ARE SO STUPID LITERALLY ALL THEY'LL UNDERSTAND IS IF THEY HAVE KEY-TENANTS THEY CAN'T EVEN CRITICISE WORDLESSLY REGURGITATED AT THEM. JUST LIKE TODAY I SUPPOSE WITH BOURGEOIS MEDIA. OH….
>>1725808If you have some better method of reaching out to people and teaching them Marxism then why don't you go do it? Oh yeah because it's much easier to piss and moan then actually do anything constructive
>>1725811>He thinks 'mass activism' is badJesus Christ man, absolutely irredeemable
>>1725814The protests stopped the war in…Iraq?
The protests stopped the war in…Syria?
The protests stopped the war in…Palestine?
The protests in Occupy stopped…Capitalism?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag1o3koTLWM
>>1725624>2/3s of them won't show their facesI see them as just milk-toast soc-dems but I honestly don't blame them for not showing their faces.
>SecondThoguht has a wealthy family in the fossil fuels sectorNow that's interesting, but not really surprising.
>Yugopnik is a drunk white collar guy in a managerial position by his own admissionThat's why he's the only one of them that doesn't come off as a condescending douche.
>Hakim is an Iraqi physician who grew up during US occupationI'm pretty sure Iraq isn't just entirely a backwater destroyed wasteland. I'd put some money down that there are well developed sectors in that country where people live relatively well off lives (especially doctors). He's probably rich as any doctor would be in a country like that. That doesn't make him some glowie. C'mon.
>i'm supposed to believe these 2 bourgeois guys and this 1 doctor from the imperial periphery share a love for the proletariat Who cares, they are socdems who do it for the money like any fucking political content creator.
>>1725700socialism isn't a poverty cult but it shouldn't be a cult of grifters either
>>1725815There has never been a successful communist movement without the participation of the masses. The fact that mass mobilization is not by itself sufficient doesn't make it less necessary.
i thought multipolarity was desirable in so far as the ensuing destabilization weakening of the hegemon allows a well organized and disciplined communist party to organize the masses and seize power
but the "communists" are too busy shitposting and looking at gore pics online, so I pretty much expect the fascists to seize the opportunity instead
>>1726770How would you identify fascism in the west? Putting migrants in camps? Closing down the borders? Financing Apartheid regimes and genocide? Ideologically, the switch to fascism is non-existent.
>>1726770It is. But many ziggas here are on the "our turn after Le Pen/AfD" type shit
>>1726914Same question:
How would you identify fascism in the west?
>>1726917The discontinuation of liberal institutions and ideals, the ban of socialist and communist parties and organization and the use of heavy violence to silence disidents.
>>1726926Starting to sound to me like misdirection. Actual evil is banalized while fear mongering about some greater evil on the horizon.
I think I get where some leftcoms are coming from with that even though they are still generally stupid.
>>1726917Everyone on this website would be dragged from their homes and executed either publicly or at some other location
That's how
>>1725661MLs aren't making the argument they think they're making when they say shit like this
>>1749291You make this webspace sound cooler than it is
>>1725710>It's only a conflict of interest if their sponsors care about what they say and try to influence their content. Given that they're some of the only leftist ecelebs that consistently oppose the US/NATO at every turn, openly praise AES including the USSR, and straight up said that there's no such thing as an Israeli civilian, I'm not at all convinced of this. Maybe you should try critically analyzing whether anything they do actually remotely threatens those interests then, but I get making being a ""communist"" your consumer identity makes many idiots feel great about themselves.
Just remember, every opportunist, moralizing, sentimental talking point you see shat out on leftist /pol/ and in this thread is fully compatible with capitalism
Capital would abandon the American Empire as easily as it abandoned the British Empire
>>1749296You don't need to be able actual threat for fascists to kill you, the first people they genocided were the disabled. If you lived under a fascist regime being a communist would be punishable by summary execution. The fact that you feel no fear while using this website should let you know you don't live under fascism.
>>1749300I'd recommend keeping your head down just in case.
> fact that you feel no fear while using this websiteUnless you're a glowie a moderate amount of paranoia is good
>>1749297>Maybe you should try critically analyzing whether anything they do actually remotely threatens those interests thenAdvocating for communism, defending past communist experiments, opposing current imperialist policies, giving platforms to communist organizations, attacking bourgeois historical narratives, etc. all threaten these interests, at least if they lead people to act on them. The only way you could argue otherwise is if your position is that a communist movement can succeed without a media apparatus to spread our views.
>Capital would abandon the American Empire as easily as it abandoned the British EmpireNot really relevant here since the Deprogram guys seem to judiciously avoid taking a stance on the allegedly progressive character of BRICS. They've platformed both pro and anti-Russian guests for example. They may be trying to avoid alienating any fans who are too autistic to patronize some dudes they don't 100% agree with, or they may have internal disagreements on that question. Probably a bit of both tbqh.
>>1749408> Advocating for communism, defending past communist experiments, opposing current imperialist policies, giving platforms to communist organizations, attacking bourgeois historical narratives, etc. all threaten these interests, at least if they lead people to act on them. The only way you could argue otherwise is if your position is that a communist movement can succeed without a media apparatus to spread our views. Building a consumer identity does little to threaten capital, no matter what that consumer identity may be; unfortunately as much as MLs think venerating corpses, joining Youtube fanclubs, and reading much vaunted texts make revolutions, they just don’t
>>1725624I disagree with you therefore I’m going to call you a wrecker glowie, I’m 100 percent right and you’re wrong because I’m immature and paranoid and spend too much time on the internet worrying about who works for the CIA as if that’s actually relevant to my life.
>>1749508What makes it a "consumer identity" exactly? They're spreading communist ideas. Is it building a "consumer identity" to read Marx? To read Marxist historians? To read Marxist analyses of current events? It's a critique which means nothing. No movement has ever been successful without generating a media apparatus to consolidate itself and spread its message.
>>1749523>What makes it a "consumer identity" exactly?heh sweaty…
>be le epic multipolarista>consoom Chinese commodities on AliMarket>huff Russian gas like a boss>?????>meanwhile International Porky makes a profitGood prole, keep going.
>>1749529>>be le epic multipolarista1. The Deprogram guys aren't exactly "multipolaristas". They have yet to take a position on it.
2. All you're really criticizing is consumption of ideas (and signifiers thereof) without corresponding action. However that has nothing to do with easily consumable communist media as such. Any effective movement will need such media, the mere fact that media consumption alone is not sufficient doesn't make it a "consumer identity." It's not sufficient but it is necessary, and in this particular case the hosts are either members of orgs themselves, or they urge people to join them and take action. You're calling it a "consumer identity" based on a strawman you created of a person who only consumes without action. That applies equally to actual theory as well, but I doubt you would say that Marx is bad and we should avoid him just because people often read him but don't get involved in the movement.
>>1749534If Marx was a ‘’real’’ communist he wouldn’t have printed and sold his books!
>>1749535>>1749534Alright, I don't care about what you are saying as long as you keep waking up on Monday and keep producing those sweet commodities.
Have a good night, tomorrow is the day where you will regret delegating all the domestic shit to machines instead of something called a "wife".
It's sad, I know. Keep working wagie, the rate of profit might crumble soon!
>>1749540Yeah porky is real dismissive until his workers start forming unions and joining communist parties.
>>1749541Go on my friend but don't forget to wake up Monday and clock in.
>>1749544A strike's been called. No clocking in for a while.
>>1749546Where is the multipolarista strike? You mean being a doomer while still producing those sweet commodities for me from Monday to Friday, and simping for foreign nation states, who are far away from your very material conditions?
It's okay if the ships can't go through the Suez Canal, the wagies under my order will mog all Africans and show them what is "imperialism", all the commodities they are not enjoying, big ships going to Europe.
What are you threatening me with, exactly?
>>1749557I'm not threatening "you" with anything. Idk what this gay rp shit is supposed to be or why you keep bringing up multipolarism in relation to The Deprogram. Communist media is a vital component of the movement, simple as.
>>1749780>Ctrl-F "Deprogram">it's some kind of e-celebsI don't care as long as you go back to the cagie to build the real movement on Monday! Multipolarity is definitely not a consumer identity, don't forget to consume more Moldovian salami!
>>1749795>Multipolarity is definitely not a consumer identityIt's a geopolitical development actually, one which Western porkies are definitely not okay with since they're about to plunge us into WW3 to stop it. Of course it won't end capitalism, but it will destabilize it, undermine the material basis for the rule of Western porkies over their own people, and cripple their ability to contain socialist movements abroad.
>>1749801While you are busy arguing on this niche Kyrgyz forum, I'm buying gas from the East and reselling it to the West. You thought capital had borders?
>Of course it won't end capitalism, but it will destabilize it, undermine the material basis for the rule of Western porkies over their own people, and cripple their ability to contain socialist movements abroad.We are still waiting since 1991 for communists to "destabilize" and "cripple" us while we make business as usual. We never said it was an eternal bull market, you only have to play your cards right.
Remember when oil futures went negative in 2020? Multipolarity will probably help stabilize the prices! More opportunities for me!
bump to save from deletion
>>1789319lol imagine bumping such a shit thread
>>1725624> SecondThoguht has a wealthy family in the fossil fuels sector by his own admission????????????????????????????
>>1789785it's needed, saves from international discussion in respective Ukraine and Palestine threads.
The trend and phenomenon of multipolarity is interesting, and has merit of worthy discussion.
Janitorial bump
>>1820409A war filled world will give us revolutionary conditions.
>>1820409Oh my god so much this
>Luv China
<Luv Cuba
>Luv Best Korea
<Luv Vietnam Laos Cambodia
>Ate Russia
<Ate Iran
>Ate Brasil and rest of liberal countries
Simple as.
<Luv Cuba
>Luv Best Korea
<Luv Vietnam Laos Cambodia
>Luv Russia
<Luv Iran
>Luv Brasil
The elephant in the room is that the new coldwar, china hawking etc. empowers fascist Bahrat which has self-consciness eand explicitly makes itself "indefensible" to the US-led anti-China alliance so as to entrenchment revanchist fascism. But the left and the multipolaristas (who aren't exactly left) don't like to acknowledge this and will instead relitigate unionization in China for the 9000x time.
>>1821530Thank you for taking this opportunity to display your total ignorance of anti-imperialist theory and discourse since the 70s, sorry I meant "tell us how smart you are for inventing criticizing India".
The discussion of India and South Africa as sub-imperialist states should take up most of our time. I've repeatedly pointed this out before, as well as my highly plausible explanation:
There is no discussion on this site of peripheral countries except when it comes to bending over backwards to explain why people agree with the Washington Post, but for BASED LEFTIST REASONS. That's why there is more criticism of anti-imperialist countries than sub-imperialists. There isn't enough for the propaganda-addicted ultra leftists to pay attention to.
Have you ever posted about the genocide in Manipur and how it relates to India's sub-imperialism against Bangladesh? No, you were busy wanking.
i cant fucking believe we have to discuss this garbage
so high on copium that some of us resort to defending bourgeois nations to feel less alone. pathetic
Right wing thread.
Ahahaha holy shit, I hadn't seen there was a fucking general for this liberal garbage. What are mods even doing.
>>1820461What caused the Russian and Chinese Revolutions and the Paris Commune?
>>1824874dumb revisionist faggot go rim xi jinpings as
Multipolarity is the Russian weak form of a post-American world. Consider instead: A Community with a Shared Future for Humankind:
https://wb.beijing.gov.cn/en/express/202312/t20231226_3512084.html
>>1821631>>1821877>>1822088NOOOOOOO YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND, NON-WESTERN CAPITALISM IS BASED ACTUALLY! THE PETTY BOURGEOIS STREAMER SAID SO!
>>1820461wanting ww3 is stupid, but the hell is it idealist to say that? war is destabilizing, and makes bourgeois powers vulnerable. it would be better to destabilize them in other ways, but war would do it.
>>1824902>>18249075 cents have been deposited into your account.
>>1707422I'm so tired of "third-worldist" "anti-imperialist" liberals who never read Lenin constantly bringing him up to back up their stupid ideas. Lenin's support for natlib stemmed from a recognition of its function during a bourgeois revolution. He explicitly was against supporting natlib in areas where the bourgeois revolution is over, which, surprise, extends to the whole world since decades ago.
This thread might be the epitome of leftoid retardation. Absolutely doesn't belong on a communist or even anarchist imageboard.
>>1825890>areas where the bourgeois revolution is over, which, surprise, extends to the whole world since decades agolol
>>1821590What do you mean? Greater Bahrat is demolishing Mosques to make way for Hindu Monuments as the foundation of its national project. But who criticizes them for this? They are the best buddy of the Americans.
multipolarism isnt possible because in the long run one power or another will come to dominate
>>1821631>>1821877>>1822088>3 glowfags in a row doing this when the thread has been around since 2023-09-07you're getting desperate, burgers stupidity agency
>>1828005
lmao
"disliking non-western bourgeois" is not a real political position.
Showing the whole anti-multipolarista gimmick as absurd (argumentum ad absurdum)
It sounds about something like this "Not real communism".
>>1821393
>They actually promote the theory that every state is imperialist.
*Except China
>>1828889
hahahaha
It's not about arguments. You don't even understand the question. You aren't rejecting shit.
>>1828005
cry
>>1827615Why is US hegemony so unstable then?
Socialism! Not Multipolarism
2nd Edition 9-10-2023
A. Bloodgasm
Multipolarity is not something one should be for or against, because it really isn't something you can attach yourself to like some camp or some ideology. Multipolarity, as an existent term, is just a signifier of the current global economic conditions of the world in regards to the current dominant powers that own and transfer capital whether within their borders or without. What it means as a definition is just that instead of a singular global hegemon influencing global affairs or a dual power struggle between two superpowers, it is a condition in which the world is divided amongst multiple powers influencing global affairs/capital/the market.
To be for or against it is the equivalent of going out in the street and declaring yourself as being pro-summer or anti-winterists. Its silly. Its just like the changing of seasons and people have to adapt to it. When its freezing outside, you change into something warmer. But even the hardiest winter clothing is not going to keep one warm against the coldest winter, and we are heading into a long hellish winter. A capitalist winter twilight.
One thing many who espouse the concept of multipolarism (attaching oneself to multipolarity as if it is an ideology) tend to forget (or just outright refuse to acknowledge) that this new multipolar world we are heading towards is a capitalist-centric multipolarity. History has shown that last time this world had gone through a capitalist-led multipolar age helmed by imperialist powers, it had unleashed two world wars and countless dead. This not to say that having a unipolar or bipolar world is any better. During the Cold War the champion of capitalist hegemony, the United States, through proxy wars as well as actual wars, coups, and assassinations/subterfuge helped/directly committed atrocities and war-crimes that make WWII pale in comparison. During the unipolar reign of neoliberalism after the USSR fell, the atrocities did not stop, it only continued. Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, the list goes on and continues to this day. All to reinforce capitalism and sustain imperialist expanse.
This is why one cannot attach themselves to a concept of multipolarity, or unipolarity, or bipolarity. The problem is not how many powers there are in the world. The problem is the global economic system that those powers exist under. Capitalism. Capitalism breeds competition. Nations or precisely the national bourgeoise of that nation compete for capital. They do not grow together in peace under capitalism as many proponents of multipolarism tend to espouse as a benefit of multipolarity. They head towards conflict, because capitalism breeds conflict. There is no multipolar peace under capitalism, only the prelude to war and destruction as nations compete for power.
Proponents of multipolarism will almost always fall back on and reference the stymied development of imperialized nations outside of the imperial core. They are correct in pointing this out and referencing the contradiction of neocolonialism. Those nations do in fact need to break free from imperialism and national liberation is necessary. But it is one thing to understand the purpose of a national bourgeoisie replacing the comprador in that struggle, but it is important to never rest solely on the national bourgeois to lead the socialist revolution or to think that they would ever allow that to happen. They ignore class and only focus on the “development” of said nations. This is a primary flaw of the multipolarist that leads to their the defense of reactionary regimes and the repression those regimes do to socialists within those nations.
Multipolarism does not care for the working class of those nations. It is just a changing of task masters. Nothing more, nothing less. Any boon for the workers borne from breaking away from the global hegemon is the equivalent of a heavy boot slightly being let off their collective necks. The struggle for socialism is not over and not won. The fact is that they are still under the boot of their national oppressors. It is up to them and we as socialists to use that slight aside to break free from under the weight of that boot.
Many multipolarists love to reference the how many of these budding capitalist nations have seemingly good standings with the few “socialist” nations of this world most predominantly Cuba and the DPRK as if that is a justification that multipolarity is a net positive. They tend to forget completely the this does not wash away the fact these growing countries are still capitalist and oppress their own working class.
If anything this does not justify multipolarity at all, it only reinforces that we still currently exist under a unipolar hegemony front-manned by the United States. This is because most of these countries are aligned due to the economic pressure (sanctions and blockades) put forth by the United States as well as the EU NATO-bloc (which is by in large an extension of American power). When that pressure eventually fades only time will tell if that alignment of those interests between worker-led nations and the nations run by power-hungry capitalists continue or (as history has shown us many times) inevitably clash.
And what of the old lion in the room? The United States. It is a waning power there is no doubt of it. Mulitpolarists love to frame their idealist multipolar world as one in which the United States is practically a nonentity. That there will be new orders that rise in its stead. That same United States that has military bases all across the globe will somehow just cease to be a relevant thing. Or if anything it will turn a new leaf and just accept the changing of seasons. Iridescent foolishness. Capitalism breeds conflict and the United States has sustained itself off conflict, colonialism, and imperialism from its inception. The capitalists who run that country will be anything but docile when their grip on global power is threatened. We see it today with the arming of Ukraine and the powder keg that is Taiwan. Global war is brewing, a prelude to the birth of a new multipolar world. If we even survive to see it. And all for what I ask you? Another capitalist-led world built on the ruins of the last? This is not even capitalist realism at this point. It is just capitalist reincarnation. A continual recycling of the capitalist system reinventing itself at the expense of everything; our entire existence put to flame just to try and keep the old ways alive. That is the multipolar world we are heading towards. But it doesn't have to be that way.
The global workers movement has been gutted and kept down for decades especially in the west. This has led many to adopt a form a campism to cope with lack of a united global movement. Anti-americanism, eastern/western dichotomy, and multipolarism are offshoots of this void. It allows one to feel that are apart of something bigger than themselves that, in their minds, can lead to something different. A capitalist multipolar world will not change or fix the problems that affect this world (which are born from capitalism) only the amount of hands that hold power in it (hands which are almost all attached to the arms of each respective nation's capitalist class).
This does not mean there is no global proletariat or that workers movements have gone extinct. Capitalism proletarianizes the populace. Workers currently toil in hellish conditions all around the globe and they are aware of their position. They know they are mistreated. They are striking and protesting for better conditions all around the global south. Workers are fighting against their oppressors. There is class consciousness among the working class. We must push towards socialism. Not only national liberation. Not some distant idealist dream of a multipolar world which only continues the corrupt system of the past. But socialism. We should not just want a multipolar world in the yolk of capitalism. Whether unipolar, bipolar, or multipolar it must be socialist! We must demand and bring forth a world run by the workers not the just the national capitalist class of warring nations. Global polarity feels like the changing of seasons and it seems we are heading towards a deadly winter. The best winter clothing may not protect one, but if we all get together for warmth, we'll persevere.
<Errata to this 2nd edition:
Better paragraph displacement (in my opinion)
Added a section on neocolonialism and the national bourgeoisie Par. 5
Added sentence in Par. 6
Added sentences in Par. 12 to clarify socialism does not end with national liberation alone
Removed final paragraph from previous version (anon was right, it was over-doing it)
Does not contain editor revisions from the NM version
>>1829332Stop posting Lenin like he'd agree with your stupid stance of supporting bourgeois nation-states when the whole world is already fully capitalist. Whatever farmed quotes pseuds post ITT are referring to the epoch of anti-feudal struggles against colonialism, which is long over. The bourgeoisie today is a reactionary class worldwide - to support bourgeois states against other bourgeois states is as reactionary as feudalists against capitalism back then.
In addition, Lenin also termed Japanese capitalism 'equally predatory' as American capitalism, despite genuine feudalism still existing there which was removed only in the 1950s after the American occupation, labour productivity in Japan being very low, being an agrarian society.
>>1829354China, among other US enemies are building multipolarism as a means for anti imperialism. Anti imperialism isn't just a magic word you utter nor a moral stance. It is a pragmatic goal.
>>1829386You mean trying to get a larger share of global capital? Very communist.
>>1829354Reposting your article from your defunct zine and calling it an "edition" is jawdropping bro
>>1829402Do you think Iran is an imperialist nation? Is Venezuela?
>>1829356>Supporting nation statesThere is no support from a internet armchair. Multipolarity is a material position(that is happening regardless of "personal support") not a personal opinion.
Where are the sources supposing multipolarism just generates socialism? Who says this? Proving that multipolarism doesn't create a socialist state is a shower argument against yourself stated publicly. It changes nothing.
An inherent admission of multipolarism is that it will be a series of competing predatory capitalist states. Whom with reduced recourses and less individual power predate less because they have less leverage to extract as much surplus with an alternative state available. Their position is weakened. Multipolarity is an iteration of underlying conditions not the magic bullet. proving it isn't the magic bullet changes nothing because it is not the argument.
Multipolarism is not an individual ideology that replaces or supplements. It is not the moral support a specific nation state. It is a material condition that increases the odds by just that little bit.
The bourgeois nation state will act in this fully capitalist world with or without personal opinion/support. Whether it mutates conditions favourably is the enitre point the whole time.
>>1829402I meant what I said. Can you engage in good faith?
>>1829412That's literally what China is doing, lol. The analogy of multipolarists supporting the "small business owners" of geopolitics is so very apt, even though China's GDP is almost as high as America's.
>>1829411For someone repeatedly saying "material" like that makes your argument automatically correct, you simply do not understand class positions. One bourgeois country or the other "winning" has nothing to do with communism.
The conditions for communism were already there a century ago. The bourgeois exist in every country, so America existing or not is irrelevant.
>>1829407So imperialism is merely a subjective policy manoeuvre? You can "become" imperialist at will? If Iran sent a few troops tomorrow hypothetically to neighboring Pakistan and grabbed a few villages, it would "become" imperialist all of a sudden, everything else remaining the same? Is maintaining a large naval fleet, engaging in proxy conflicts in the Middle East and attempting to construct nuclear weapons not enough of a struggling for resources for you?
How is it that Bulgaria in 1908, or Romania in 1919, or Poland in 1920 reached this supposed 'stage' of imperialism but modern day Iran apparently hasn't despite being far more developed than any of the aforementioned?
>>1829411>america is a special evil and when a different country takes the reins then revolution will be more possible by 0,00001% (?)this is just leftoid american exceptionalism
>>1606402What Lenin wrote (the flaws in his theory aside), he did not intend those criteria as a checklist for determining whether an individual state was imperialist or not - across Bolshevik writings you can find them calling states like Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia, Greece and even Kemalist Turkey imperialist. And it was certainly not to distinguish the relationship between rich and poor bourgeois nations - Lenin mentions in an article how Italian imperialism was termed "poor man's imperialism" owing to Italy's immense poverty then.
A country where 85% of the population were backward smallholder peasants can be capitalist-imperialist, but modern Iran that is far more developed, is somehow not. Curious. Lenin was not stupid enough to use his checklist as a qualifier for whether or not an individual state was imperialist, he used it to summarize what he saw as features of
the world capitalist system as a whole.
>>1829422If a specific bourgeois state won it wouldn't be multipolar it would be unipolarity again under a new flag. Who/where is calling for russia and chinas bourgeois to dominate global markets as the new order?
If none of the bourgious states outright win - if (as reality is trending towards) a series a regional blocs appear. Organisation/Agitation will have better odds against these more fragile states as history prior evidenced.
The point of the labor market example is that there is a relative scale of bourgeois power. That when on the lower end of this spectrum - the product of brief moments of competition between monopoly periods - surplus redistribution (therefore leverage in the economy the general oppurtunity to agitate and organise grows
The cultural existence of America is irrelevant - the power of their bourgeois as world monopolist is. Again Multipolarism does not claim to be the solution, it is a positive addition at best and a lost oppurtunity at worst.
To view it as a moral position supporting a specific cultures economic class reveals an moralistic,indivudalistic lib understanding of the world.
>>1829447Capital always tends to monopolize. Countries aren't exempt to this. This is just liberal complaints about monopolies but applied to geopolitics…
The whole point of globalization means a more united proletariat. Why exactly do you want this to break down?
>>1829452Large technological stocks of Russia armed forces remain reliant on western imports (by proxy) fighting the very same western interests that know what's going on when millions in tech is globally imported to Kazakhstan or other border states. The example is evidence that globalisation of trade remains (thus the mechanisms for proletarianization) but the relative power of a single state to discipline labor lowers. The contradiction between capitals global interest and the individual profit interest of each individual capitalist entity.
>>1829428How ridiculous. imperialism is global colonial financial system that prevents poor enclosed nations from developing. This is the core of modern geopolitics. Bloodgasm won't answer whether Iran and Venezuela are imperialist because he knows this fake ML definition passed around by The Deprogram and Politsturm applies to them. That's how lacking in rigor it is. These people will chimp out at the most heavily sanctioned countries on earth if the NYT leads the way. They never even bother with Turkey, India, or other sub-imperialists. This site is determined to have no impact on anything. Go ahead, remind me you helped proliferate the image of a mass shooter. Nobody is even aware of this "impact" until you make the claim.
>>1606107>>1606352>>1606400>>1607281This is just so funny for some reason. What do people even think finance capital is? Some arcane, esoteric, mysterious artifact only a select few can possess? Do countries like Yemen not have banks, shares, stocks, bonds or anything?
Coming into second hand contact with the retarded Lenin pamphlet reinforces their belief that it's a mystical trick of the dominant powers. Even if it was, and imperialism was simply financial domination, that'd just make Yemen an imperial puppet, hardly 'anti-imperialist' by any logic because modern finance can literally not be untangled from the capitalist system as a whole. There is absolutely no way to be both a bourgeois state and 'anti-imperialist'.
>>1829454Correct - which is why there is no source on earth claiming multipolarism is a idelogical answer to capitalism. Through contradictions of cynical actors opportunity is created, which can be used by the - now improved - leverage of conscious anti-imperialist elements against - now weaker - regional capital interests
>>1829468
reply to this
>>1829477So you think that the definition of finance capitalism is solely about the FIRE sector's proportions within a particular economy? So you use the example of Yemen? Uhh, okay buddy (ultra). Even if we stuck with that example it's patently ridiculous to compare the most heavily financialized countries on earth to the lowest income least financialized economies on earth. Go ahead call Eritrea imperialist with their subsistence farmers just because they have a competent military. You're grasping at straws.
Imperialism examines global trade, networks of ownership and payments, the debt system, myriad things which you don't even acknowledge the existence of as they disintegrate the entire nation of Haiti. Have you been living under a rock for say, 25 years?
>>1829491>support the small guy against the monopolies!!youre a walking parody
I keep leaving out migrant labor but it's the perfect example, along with the US having permanenly uncollected debt payments, of how rightoids reverse the victims and offenders of imperialism right under your noses. You wouldn't even be able to mount an argument against something that simple because you turn a blind eye to how we use other countries' debts to us to exploit them. You cannot imagine this happening without "magic powers" so anyone who notices it happening must just hate America, right? Don't you have some tendies to go eat?
>>1829495So Yemen fits your definition of imperialism, is that right kiddo?
Imperialism is when a country has a BANK. Imperialism is when a country has a MILITARY. Expose the imperialism of Hamas and their Qatari state backers! Stand for Israeli and Palestinian workers against anti-imperialist conflict!
>>1829466>The contradiction between capitals global interest and the individual profit interest of each individual capitalist entity.This right here is why people can't understand how the labor aristocracy work in the US. They think anyone saying the US exploits other countries thinks the wealth trickles down. Only to the top 10% with mortgages, retirement, benefits, even they still give up much of their superprofits back to the FIRE sector and all kinds of bullshit, they don't care because they make plenty of money at Google. That's why Google workers did a tepid little sit-in while Starbucks direct action is getting the goods. It's the tech workers and cybersecurity fags and finance and pharma industry lower ranks that are the labor aristocracy, not baristas.
Nobody is valorizing industrial exploitation of workers. But the contradictions between industrial and finance capital are stark. US banking is about pure rent seeking. There is no industrial investment. 80% of Chase's money comes from mortgages.
Just to sum this discussion up without reading it. The important gap is not between the multipolaristas and the other. The important distinction is between people that engage with reality and those that do not.
Watch/read Parenti, Prashad etc.
Ben Norton, who's in some spanish speaking country and has a website/news outlet called (formerly) multipolarista.
>>1829540
>Just admit your politics is tantamount to reverse US exceptionalism and call it a day
No, you haven't engaged with a single argument made by anti-imperialists.
You complete dismissed everything I said about the form and function and scale of the US financial system and how it IS the global financial system. Hence Saudis going in and torturing Yemenis for their bank codes, acting as sub-imperialist enforcers.
You swapped the labels on "THEY HATE US FOR OUR FREEDUMS!!!" to communist and you're so stupid you expect people to take you seriously when you clearly don't read what they say.
>>1829540
In a counterfactual world where Russia is the decaying world monopolist in a global capitalist world. Where instead it - not anywhere else - is the largest concentration of capitalist power leveraging its superiority to more effectively supress any organised attempt at improving conditions let alone political change;
The multipolar position would be to support semi-periphery east coast against the Canadian comprador state (or whatever) because of the same simple logic that there is ground to be gained by the third party (labor) when cynical actors are divided in conflict than united against you.
The perception that multipolarism is anti-americanism can only be born of believing American exceptionalism is why they are the seat of capital. Rather than a geoeconomic determinative that has no bearing on specific culture. It is projection and putting the cart before the horse
>>1829546Didn't he defect to China?
>>1829551He was in Nicaragua, he's in China now. The website is now called
https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/ the name was changed because that's the name of Radhika Desai's book about imperialism. Which would take you mere hours to read, but you're too afraid to approach anti-imperialist writing. You would rather live in the land of make-believe.
>>1829555You are beyond uninteresting, a whiny child.
>>1829558Maybe, I don't know
>>1829560Sorry I got actual shit to do
>>1829558>defectIs going to complete a master's degree "defecting" now, your glowness?
>>1829563You're on TOR. You don't have anything to do other than wait for imageboard pages to load. You stand no chance of convincing me, or anyone else here that a spark of intellect resides in you.
>>1829565>>1829567Now fight for the people's amusement, clowns
>>1829565disregard that shitposter
>t. Norton x Aaron Good history series enjoyer
>>1829578
>remember getting mocked by you faggoty fucks for not being an opportunistic rodent
Sorry that I've triggered your PTSD. Feel free to take a break and even read the things you're criticizing during that time, unless that also triggers you.
>>1829615Picrel should be on the front page. Site is wild with it the last couple of hours.
>>1829615>>1829749Holy shit, you have to be on a whole new level of stupidity to defend Russia as an alleged communist or even ML.
>>1829819>"Defend"You're still fucking doing it; what is this liberal personification of states - capitalist states no less - as individualistically moral entities to be 'defended' or 'denounced'. There is no defending or supporting anything because there is no effect at a commentary level because it could not care less. Out of cynical interest calculated upon historical conditions it did not choose - the Russian bourgeois have found themselves in opposition. Whose success comes at the cost of the hegemon to create a weaker net capitalist whole.
If everyone here signed a petition denouncing the invasion not a fucking thing would change and vice versa. Because morality at the individual level can only be superficially performative. Rather at the systematic level does it become salient.
At that systematic level, conceding to reality that the invasion has occurred completely irrespective to any personal opinion because history is not debate club. How this event can be seized upon, how this event shakes up capitalist dynamics, how that shakeup can be used as a catalyst for. Is the moral imperative with respect to reality.
The bourgeois are opportunistic, that opportunism has come into contradiction with a competing opportunist state that refuses to concede its hoarded rentier position. An event to be used rather than snidely dismissed. A dismissal that in its performative opposition puts you in parallel with hegemonic interests.
Geopolitics is not a "debate" where a side is picked. With an individualistic presumption that the world cares. It is observed and acted around. The point that is refused to be understood; that it is but one convenient step not the goal.
>>1829849>Geopolitics is not a "debate" where a side is picked. Except in the context of people
debating on an internet forum. Like you say: nothing would change based on what people say here, but what you leave out is that this doesn't mean the people here are universally intelligent, neutral observers analysing objective conditions. On the contrary, most are deeply partial emotional young men with a thousand petty biases that incline them to love whoever united states foreign policy loathes, who're inclined to let Russia off easy because even a good communist cannot resist the aesthetic linkage between Russia and Communism in the west - even if he ought to remember that the modern Russian state was born from blackest reaction it's so easy to displace when, like the USSR, it's a primary foreign policy opponent of the US…
Analysis of geopolitics by the powerless is generally cope, in-group signalling (look how much I hate the US guys! The US in which 90% of the time, I live.) escapism. Why work hard to do any local organising? Why think of a way of doing so that isn't LARP? Russia and China and Iran and, and, and, uhh, the next set of Fijians to mount a coup d'etat will do all the work for you. Look, they even use soviet looking tanks and fighters jets, that's something right? If you squint you can see the T-38s around the washington monument!
The result is then patently facile analysis, like people who's every statement indictates that they believe the Ukraine war is basically one long string of Russian victories, every setback being a decoy, a strategic retreat, etc, etc, and if you say otherwise you're a Ukranian shill. How the dispassionate analyist finds his passions aroused by people presenting the opposite case! how curious!
>>1829890>Analysis of geopolitics by the powerless is generally cope, in-group signalling (look how much I hate the US guys! The US in which 90% of the time, I live.) escapism. Why work hard to do any local organising? Why think of a way of doing so that isn't LARP? Russia and China and Iran and, and, and, uhh, the next set of Fijians to mount a coup d'etat will do all the work for you. Look, they even use soviet looking tanks and fighters jets, that's something right? If you squint you can see the T-38s around the washington monument! Taken In good faith you cannot state you are above the pigs if you roll around in the shit with them in the pigsty. Why do they get the agency to decide the frame of argument, why does poor old you have to engage with their framing while dismissing any higher economic analysis. Why let them decide the base ignorance of debate unless you yourself subscribe to their tenets from the opposite end.
Taken as bait Who the fuck said any of this? Where are they beyond the crevices of your own mind? . Where are the posters calling Russia the substitute, where are the posters saying local organising is bad; an effort helped by a fractured world order with less pressure and greater leverage. Most importantly if they do exist - why should they be taken so seriously as to derail analysis?
Your ego has gotten too involved in an internet debate you think you're above. read the shit thats been written above instead of 'winning;' against a Parasocial image of a poster you dont like or log off and look in a mirror.
>>1829902 (me)
your counter is built on historical grievance and far worse - petty grievance towards internet people you dont know - rather than any actual analysis of the here and now - if theres a line of thought on how local organising benefits from a unipolar world state it instead of another fucking caricature on how you think the bad people support Russia and even more pathetically if taken true - you take them seriously enough to respond
>>1829337even if us hegemony disintegrates it will be replaced both another country's capitalist hegemony
>>1829902>Taken as bait Who the fuck said any of this?People speak through their actions. If someone spends all day talking about the Russia-Ukraine war, they do not have to
say that they neglect or reject local organising. Their mind is clearly elsewhere. They might even say they're for it - plenty of idiots who waste their time on other things will say that, in principle, they love and support organising. Their love is theoretical, their support "moral".
I do not think I am above the internet debate, I look at it
from above. The arguments themselves are boring, but the motivations of those who make the arguments are socially interesting and can be slotted into general theories about how people work.
>>1829908I do not care, at this time, about the relative impact of a multipolar versus unipolar world state on local organising. Local organisers have effectively no impact either way - you may as well consider whether an asteroid falling from the sky would be beneficial or harmful, what happens will happen, 仕方がない. I don't think bad people support Russia, I think stupid, desperate people get overly invested in foreign conflicts of all stripes - NAFO freaks have the same basic disease, but I'm not going to kick the outgroup for easy points so people here can feel good about themselves.
>>1829912Retards on the geopolitical conflict threads need to be forcibly shipped to a war zone to fight for whatever bourgeois war machine they're screeching support for tbh.
>>1829890I think you missed the point the poster was making.
What does anti-imperialism means to so called anti-multipolarists, if not dismantling the hegemonic world imperialist system? Weakening it? Building alternatives that allow nations to resist imperial imposition? Is it just being more mean on twitter?
Bloodgasm's post, "anti-imperialism, not multipolarism", do anti-multipolarists not understand how multipolarism came to be? How it was painstakingly built against the constant sabotage of western hegemony? Do they think it just magically appeared like a weather event?
Surely they're not drooling morons, and can at least understand that deliberate planning and half a century of consistent, fraught execution created the conditions we see today.
Must they resort to ridiculous strawmen, such that claiming that their opponents believe that Russia is communist and that building multipolarity will magically bring
heaven communism on Earth?
Giving them the benefit of the doubt, they aren't building these outrageous strawmen out of malice or illiteracy. So what remains? Where do these people get these insane talking points? Is it on Twitter? On YouTube? Can anyone comment?
>>1829558>Didn't he defect to China?This is so funny. I'm an immigrant. Maybe I'll start saying I'm a defector.
>>1830087>dismantling the hegemonic world imperialist systemThey are not doing that. Capital will just shift eastward or somewhere else. Billionaires and their exuberant wealth aren't confined to the US or EU alone. Multinational corporations span the world over. The world imperialist system includes said "anti-imperialist" countries. They are a part of it, all they want is a bigger share of its profits.
>Weakening itNurturing capitalist compradors towards alternate imperialist spheres of influence does not weaken the imperialist system, that is just a feature of it.
>Building alternatives that allow nations to resist imperial imposition?When everything is still capitalist, there is no alternative being put forth. It is still capitalism.
>do anti-multipolarists not understand how multipolarism came to be?Yes. It is just late-stage capitalism running its course over the world. It is not socialist, it is not "anti-imperialist" it is a direct result of imperialism in our modern age as it was during Lenin's time. It is a time when competing imperialist nations are re-divvying up the world and are clashing with one another first through proxy then through direct conflict.
>How it was painstakingly built against the constant sabotage of western hegemonyThis is a ridiculous claim. Crisis of capitalism have continued throughout all these "polarities". Mutipolarity wasn't manufactured like some secret weapon to smash the west. Its just the conditions of the time we are in. Conditions that can change relatively quickly.
>understand that deliberate planning and half a century of consistent, fraught execution created the conditions we see todayWho planned this? Wtf are you talking about? This is schizo nonsense. Many things created the conditions we have today. To surmise that this all is some perfectly implemented plan decades in the making is insane. So was the fall of the ussr, the 2008 crash, covid, all a part of this grand plan to birth multipolarity too?
>Must they resort to ridiculous strawmen>such that claiming that their opponents believe that Russia is communistWe have all seen comments stating unironically that modern Russia is socialist. Say what you will about those idiots, but they are squarely in your camp and in your spaces.
>and that building multipolarity will magically bring communism on Earth?Again there are idiots who say these things and think this. You may disagree, but they are staunch allies of "multipolarity" because multipolarity has nothing to do with building socialism but rather the expansion of various business ventures so it is no surprise opportunists and grifters are its loudest voices.
>Where do these people get these insane talking points?I can only speak for myself but it is not from internet personalities but from Marxist theory itself. From the study of socialist history. All this fawning over multipolarity, means nothing. The history of class struggle within many nations and time periods is so vast and complex that simplifying it all down to whether or not multipolarity is a thing or whether or not a reigning hegemony is in power, is frankly insultingly stupid. Peak armchair naval gazing. There is so much that needs to be done, so much much ground that needs to be rethreaded from what was lost to revisionism and anti-communist bias, education that must be met, parties that need reconstructing, why waste precious time on tailing nations/geopolitics and following a line that seeks to mainly empower our class enemies with only vague reformist promises to the vast swathes of workers who deserve way more? Everything I've seen about multipolarity flies in the face of all that I have learned about Marxism, is propagated by ex-trots with ties to finance capital, is filled with crypto-fascists, reformists, and revisionists, is praised by reactionary regimes, has been used as an excuse to repress communists, and seeks not to replace the global imperialist system but to nurture its growth under the vulgar guise of "anti-imperialism".
>>1830219>They are not doing that. Capital will just shift eastward or somewhere else. Billionaires and their exuberant wealth aren't confined to the US or EU alone. Multinational corporations span the world over. The world imperialist system includes said "anti-imperialist" countries. They are a part of it, all they want is a bigger share of its profits. You really have no concept of how global trade is currently organized, do you? The whole financial system is set up to keep colonized countries in a lower level of the value ladder. Christ, you really only read the news!
The source of their wealth IS the international inequality, get this through your head! It's 1% of the NATO+ countries doling out enough to 10% of the population to keep personnel in industries that need to be secured (for police/military enforcement, surveillance, or various monopoly rents) that creates this supersized global bourgeoisie that's strangulating the planet? Where have you been?
>>1828845i am that anon, miss me with the mind palace shit. people who "support china" are for you defined as anyone who pushes back against the US narrative. they can do it without clearly stating they think China is just a better platform for imperial core leftoidism than the US, when in fact it is a developing country utlizing the unstoppable engine of maoist agriculture
>>1830219You claim to have learned so much about Marxism, and still don't understand that "the real movement" is used in direct contrast to "the ideologically pure movement".
>>1830534>calling anything you pull out of your ass "the real movement"real brainlet hours
>>1830497>You are the front door of this great continent; we are the back doorWas Mao aware of the subtle sexual undertone this statement could assume?
>>1829902Every war now, including the one Iran is on the brink of, is competition between bourgeois states. These are all advanced bourgeois nations with developed state powers turning outward against one another, and the communist position is the same one Lenin supported in regards to the great war.
>>1830537>>1830539Sorry but complaining to workers that "X government is taking your money and giving it to Israel/Ukraine", ostensibly meant as a means of stirring them up and raising their consciousness, is in reality purely bourgeois rhetoric that does not move beyond the bounds of capitalist politics. Telling workers that the state is putting money to 'the wrong use' amounts to implying there is a 'correct use' of money beyond the function it serves for capital, thus by extension telling workers they have a stake in 'fixing' the distribution of surplus-value.
At least the fight for higher wages serves as an arena for struggle, to sharpen class antagonism and engage workers in strikes and confrontations, as long as communists do not support wage increases as an end in itself and definitely not because that money is 'rightfully' for the workers (it isn't).
>>1830860This, we must not fall into anti-americanism and forget about all the millitary bases Iran, Russia and China have spread across the world or their hegemony on finance and information
>>1830868Cool strawman. Despite all the theatrics the US and China have no problem doing business with each other, anyway.
>>1830863>amounts to implying there is a 'correct use' of moneythere is a correct use: bettering the lives of the working class
workers need to be made aware how many resources are being sent to the fascist states of ukraine and israel and the reason WHY so much is sent there to their detriment when they're barely able to pay their bills: because it's in america's elite interest to strangle russia, iran and china
>>1830860> advanced bourgeois nations with developed state powers turning outward against one anotherdo you actually think imperialism is when nations have "developed state power"? how does that make them turn outward against one another and what does it have to do with capitalism?
This is probably the dumbest idea I've ever heard of
With the last aid package the Us Congress seems to communicate that they are 100% behind war for the sake of unipolarity on three different fronts: Ukraine, Taiwan, and Palestine.
Personally I have the gut feeling they will lose on two fronts and win on one of them, but that's just my prediction
>>1830073> FrancsAnon, from which decade is that source from?
>>1830220https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/oureconomy/outsourcing-exploitation-global-labor-value-chains/There is a fantastic article written on it by Intan Suwandi, Author of Value Chains: The New Economic Imperialism
I recommend the series the article is a part of by OpenDemocracy, called decolonising the economy:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/oureconomy/decolonising-the-economy/Also in this is, John Smith's article, Imperialism in a coffee cup, Smith and Suwandi are really the best current authors on Imperialism, best explainers of it.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/oureconomy/imperialism-coffee-cup/
>>1829354the swan song of the desperate burger
>>1839477Well better tell China to start moving for global hegemony then, instead of cross-linking the imperial periphery and permanently destroying the global empire ☺️
>>1854773you gotta give more than that if you want people to watch an unknown youtuber rant for one hour and a half
>>1839477Then go build it you whiny worthless fuckbag.
Feel free to link me an article or any section written by Marx in support of multipolarity, liberal bros.
>>1590991As much as I like the original BRICS, it is clear that Russia, Brazil and South Africa are a lot less relevant than India and China at this point.
There should be a grouping with just India and China at this point. Russia is too involved in white supremacist politics to be trusted at this point.
>>1856420Chiang Kai Shek wasn't fascist. He was just a Nationalist.
>>1854918>/leftypol/ doesn't want to watch Communist geopolitical analysis sweatyThis is an actual active communist in the UK that doesn't dickride BRICS leaders and gives a realist analysis. There's no ranting, you got /isg/ for that.
>>1856426>active communist party in the west >relevant in the slightest *yawn* how many of those party members met with xi jingping or went to study in china or russia? absolutely none.
>>1856420>Should we work with fascistsThis faggy, opportunistic red-brown alliance shit being a daily talking point here is why I continually ask myself if leftypol should just be destroyed
>>1856441international struggle starts with a nationalist and more specifically anti-western struggle if you don't wanna win then fine go and jerk off with your trotskyist struggles about memey nonsense and vague notions of "class struggle above nations"
>Even Elon Musk finds that Xi Xinping is more desperate to please billionaires than Modi.
excuse me??
>general emphasis on developing the means of production in India
Marxoid ramblings kys
>>1856401>Is 3rd world Nationalism More Communist than communismNever was.
>>1856455go crawl back to whatever dnc funded psy-op you came from you fucking freak, unipolarity is the most dangerous threat the world has even seen and the fact that people like you can't see it and instead opt to attack other people fighting against hegemony is so fucking funny, like you actually think you're part of the struggle by selling newspapers and correcting people on /leftypol/ all the while actual communists and nationalists of the multipolar movement are working with russia and china to bring about a new era of prosperity for all.
>>1856460trotskyists are fascists that representthe DNC, if you've been keeping up you would've learned this years ago
>>1856459Nigha, the post I was responding to was your faggot ass literally claiming socialists and fascists should work together, please kill yourself in your fucking suburban hovel and stop larping as a communist just because you fap to pics of Stalin you fucking fag
>Muhh globalistKys
>>1856462>Literally propose socialists need to start working with fascists and neo-Nazis<Muh trotskyists are fascistsLeftypol Stalinists truly are the most cowardly scum of the Earth
These fuckers lie like they fucking breathe
Rat bastards that will unironically promote collaborating with fascists and then call
you the fascist for pointing out what a fucking cockroach they are
The only group in the socialist milieu regularly fascinated with, infatuated by, and desperate to work with fascists
Every accusation is a confession
>>1856463every time socialists and fascists have worked together has been to our benefit; the SRs in russia were essentially fascist and the soviets worked with them when they were useful and chinese communists did the exact same thing with the KMT to liberate themselves from japanese oppression then you have groups like the KPD which formed combat squads multiple times to contain nationalist groups that were against the imperialist treaty of versailles and they were crushed for it. these are just provable historical facts.
>>1856472> every time socialists and fascists have worked together has been to our benefitStalinoids will never beat the red fascist accusations, nor should they
>>1856426here, have some vijay prashad, an actual internationally respected marxist, talk about imperialism and lenin and his actually researched analysis on hyper imperialism published on tricontinental
https://thetricontinental.org/studies-on-contemporary-dilemmas-4-hyper-imperialism/the different eras of imperialism he identify and the historical perspective he gives on lenin analysis are great, and the hyper imperialism article has tons of information, like the fact the US led imperial bloc have 75% of all military spending on earth.
>doesn't want to watch Communist geopolitical analysis just cause the man is a member to a communist party doesnt mean much. You havent said shit about what his perspective actually is or why it is valuable, just that his analysis is "clear eyed" and "doesn't dickride BRICS leader", which makes me guess you're some anti multipolarista retard. He doesnt seem to be widely known judging by his views, it isnt a discussion or interview, its just the man talking for one hour and a half, and Im not gonna bother trying to listen to that without you giving more than "huh its good watch it, also he shit on china and russia!"
>/isg/I have never even opened that thread. A guy talking alone is usually called ranting.
Why not just look at what Kerala is doing and scale that up? Kerala is an example of what the CPC would try to do if they had to run India. Religious nationalists are retarded and there are actual communists in India doing good work.
>>1856411>Russia is too involved in white supremacist politics what a retarded fucking post
>>1856477also I forgot how he talk about the difference on old style fascism and the "resurgence" of it and how its very different in how it operates, now being integrated with liberalism and not needing any violent militia to get into power
>>1856401>Is Hindu Nationalism More Communist than the CCPNo. As told before, you are cringe and retarded.
Sage & Report.
>>1856477I watched this before and it was quite interesting, iirc. What of his books should i be reading to see these ideas more fleshed out?
>>1856401cant tell if this modi loving fuck is actually buying his own bullshit or just trying to gaslight us
>>1856477>A guy talking alone is usually called ranting.literal retardation
>here, have some vijay prashadnot retardation. I posted that article in the reading thread on /edu/ a few weeks ago, catch up sweaty
>just cause the man is a member to a communist party doesnt mean muchmore retardation. The guy is active and touching communist grass on the daily, more than you or I are doing. He's giving a communist geopolitical analysis of multipolarism relative to current events, which is why I posted it in the fucking multipolarism thread.
<why is all this salting you up so much?
The China - Russia Declaration - A Marxist AnalysisRaisi dying in an aircraft crash a couple of days later is coincidental imo. btw watching talking heads on youtube instead of listening while doing activities is retarded.
yt-dlp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wiq8YdMQOwg -f worst -k -x –audio-format mp3 –audio-quality 0 –no-embed-metadata
>>1859703What is his problem with climate change?
Condolences for the passing of leftist-murderer lesser evil #373722, lib sisters. 😔😔😔
>>1859859the ones I see cheering everywhere are the nato loving libs though
I dont see how multipolar bros would care, it wont change anything on the geopolitical stage, only the seething reddit libs think we have any love for the reactionary leaders simply because they are part of the movement towards multipolarity
the absolute irony of accusing people of liberalism while behaving exactly like them is funny and characteristic of the antimultipolarity retards though.
>>1829912This might be an odd thing to ask but is there a way tp contact you? Like Telegram or twitter because i've loved everything you've said in this thread and i'd honestly like to talk to you
>>1859859Rip in peace persian pinochet 🥺
>WHAT IS MULTIPOLARISM Multipolarism, in its most basic form, posits a world where multiple powers (countries or entities) exist in a state of relative equilibrium, challenging the unipolar hegemony led mainly by the United States post-Cold War. The emergence of China, the reassertion of Russia, the rise of regional powers like India, Brazil, and South Africa, among others, suggest a move towards this multipolar world. BUT is it rly just Capitalism 2: Electric Boogaloo - Neo-Dengism Edition? To what extent is multipolarism just capitalist nationalism for people not in green on this map? If the whole thrust of socialism is now just "America bad" what becomes of the classical socialist goals of workers control of the means of production, and abolishing class society?
the premise of OP is stupid. It is conflating a descriptive theory with a proscriptive one. Yes, the world is indeed becoming more multipolar but that isn't what people complain about when we talk about multipolaristas. Its the sort of retarded westerner who decides that thinks cheerleading the advance of multipolarism on the internet is a substitute for praxis, essentially just a radlib but instead of racial groups, genders, etc. they just substitute countries. This is to the expense of literal socialism. i.e.:
>multipolarism just capitalist nationalism for people not in green on this map
>>1856401Indian multipolarists unironically believe this. Even Dugin believes this.
>>1862283>is a substitute for praxis>This is to the expense of literal socialismthats a complete strawman though
>>1862612>thats a complete strawman thoughhow long have you lurked lol this describes like 70% of leftypol just being geopolitical cheerleaders who are also self hating westerners
>>1863162I mean I'm pretty sure India was soviet aligned until the early 90s when it turned liberal.
>>1863164>soviet alignedso was fucking idi amin, so what?
>>1863228you're not taking the position of the soviet, you're taking the position of the opportunists who would try to exploit the soviet's good will.
Depends whether you count peaceful and quick reunification as an invasion.
>>1869446So this is multipolarisma
>North Autistic Treaty Organization>MENeurotypicAl>The Middle Kingdom
>>1869446anon this map is probably due to under-diagnosis not anything else
>>1869554explain China then
>>1869569Is there a demand for psychiatric work in China? Are the diagnosis of depression or anxiety increasing or something like that?
>>1590991>If the whole thrust of socialism is now just "America bad" who said that multipolarism is socialism? just because it describes a temporarily better world for many of the most disadvantaged doesn't mean it replaces socialism. the Phillippines gov't and their ilk being tied to China is better than the same exact situation but the US having a monopoly on their potential trade partners. an alternative trade network and currency system would chip away at US hegemony and give poor capitalist countries more options, but not install socialism. It could help sometimes but that is wishful thinking. The only other argument I can think of is that US hegemony would somehow *help* create socialism faster after it collapses, which is even more wishfully thought. So in the meantime i.e. the petroyuan would help free up access to a lot of the oil in the world for non-US aligned countries. That cannot really be judged as good or bad for socialism, but could help poor capitalist countries develop.
>>1869611>poor capitalist countrieskys
Stuff like multipolarity is a bourgeois democratic attempt at anti-imperialism but can only really amount to anything when communists lead it
>>1871133Every professional-managerial class liberal has a string on their back. When you pull it and let go they say "I can do it better"
>>1871139Liberalism in common parlance is just a particular form of delusion
>>1878030Maybe China should seek closer ties with Pakistan.
>>1869569>psychiatric scienceno such a thing
>>1878065>>1878030india seems like they've really wanted to do their own thing for a few years now
>>1878069india has always been part of the "unaligned" countries, even in cold war 1 it did business with the soviet union. But india has a sour history with china who they lost a war to and have territory disputes with, and lately china has been more aggressive about these territory's. Would only take a major incident to sour relations between china and india even more. But for now india wants to play both sides
>>1878065>i have thought for a long time the key to breaking up brics is by pulling india into the western fold. People have memed BRICS into some kind of neo-Warsaw Pact which seems to oversell the point. If you hear Xi Jinping talk about BRICS, it's not a bloc, it's a rejection of bloc politics. Like you get these mid-sized economies like South Africa, Russia, Brazil and India to increase cooperation on some issues, sign some deals so they have more options instead of IMF/World Bank/America… so the U.S. isn't too happy with that but any current alignment is just "well we didn't sanction the U.S. for Iraq so why should we sanction Russia for Ukraine?" Anybody who thinks BRICS = alliance between India and China is obviously not worth taking seriously.
>Be Dilma
>Be tortured in the struggle against US backed fascists
>Be taken out by US State Dept controlled lawfare
>Be head of the BRICS development bank overseeing the birth of the new global system and the end of the US dominated order
doomers btfo
>>1878030India was never a potential ally for China or Russia because the Hindutva are the majority there and they run on a single-issue platform of "as many dead Muslims as possible" which is why they were so fucking pathetic at the start of the Gaza genocide. It's probably the most reactionary country on Earth.
>>1856401This is even more delusional than maga communism.
>>1830219For the love of- multipolarity isn't directly communist duh nobody says that, but weakening the global hegemony of the USA so that countries building communism or just breaking free from the USA don't have to starve to death from US sanctions blocking countries like Afghanistan from even getting blankets for their staving newborn children. Meanwhile you support these genocidal sanctions because America told you China bad because they didn't follow the book exactly as you like.
>but the nu countries will betray themChina is the lifeline of Cuba. China is the lifeline of North Korea. China is the lifeline of Venezuela. But you don't care about this because it goes against US foreign policy, which is ultimately your agenda. Not even Noam Chomsky was this extreme with it.
>bu-but I didn't say thatLook at what you're saying. Multipolar bad because countries don't fit you utopian standards, thus shouldn't exist. This leaves America as the elite and they will continue sanctioning and bombing countries because somehow China giving medicine to blockaded countries is evil imperialism as bad as what America is doing. It's not very convincing to me.
>>1878030India has, charitably, decided that this is their only window and they can benefit the most at this moment by fully siding against China. I don’t think this is justifiable, but you can easily come to this conclusion with a little motivated reasoning and an media ecosystem with 0 fidelity to fact.
I think opinions on the wisdom of this might change as it starts to become undeniable that China is stronger and it’s strengthening more resilient than asserted. I don’t think fascist Bharat will be able to change course, however.
>>1878980The whole country has become straight up delulu. It’s their media and the constant ball licking they are getting from western press right now as a “counter” to China. The next great white hope. But I am actually astonished at how incapable Indian analysis is.
>>1879066>I don’t think this is justifiableWhat is to be justified? Those countries are imperialist powers in competition, for markets, for land and for the sea. They have conflicting ambitions and as such it's normal that there is some friction.
>>1879101>Those countries are imperialist powersNo
Honestly the left movement should stop calling the countries that are doing everything they can to empower the third world, building thousands of hospitals, schools, and many other types of infrastructure in poor countries, despite those endeavors being completely unprofitable.
The only reason China cares so much about the people is because it is socialist. If that is what "imperialism" is, then i am imperialist. If your philosophy goes against material reality than it is just noise.
>>1883415what do you think of them supporting the AFD tho ?
>>1883420>Felzer does not want to say who exactly the AfD delegation met in China. >DW's inquiry to the Chinese embassy in Berlin about the interlocutors of AfD MPs also went unanswered.>For example, AfD foreign policy spokesman Petr Bistron criticized the German government's China strategy, which was presented in mid-July. He described it as "an attempt to >impose the green ideology and geopolitical interests of the USA under the guise of a strategy for German foreign policy".Marking China as a rival - in addition to a partner and competitor - according to Bistron, is "the result of the US's confrontational course towards China." That confrontation and division is not in Germany's interest as an exporting country."
>According to the assessment of political scientist Wolfgang Schröder from Kassel, the AfD's foreign policy positions are an attempt to distinguish itself from other parties in terms of content. Geopolitically speaking, for the AfD, Germany's traditional ties with the USA - which the party sees as a hegemon - have become obsolete, Schroeder analyzes DW:>"AfD believes that Washington is more part of the problem than part of the solution to the challenges facing Germany. The AfD believes that the US is an imperial actor whose interests cannot be reconciled with the interests of Germany".Me, not even knowing who are the AfD, can say they look ok, quite alright. Nothing looks official though, just some tweets and main discourse being against US hegemony
"The member of the European Parliament from Saxony, who ranks himself in the right wing of the party, has already attracted attention several times with extremely pro-Chinese statements. Perhaps that is why he is happy to be interviewed by Chinese media, such as the "Global Times" in November 2022. "Anti-Chinese forces in Germany do not represent the interests of Germany," he said and added: "Separation from China would only serve American interests and would cause serious damage to our industry." "
I think it is all pretty interesting
>>1878981>multipolarity isn't directly communist duh nobody says thatDo not underestimate the stupidity of those you share this liberalist outlook with.
>weakening the global hegemony of the USAThe point should not be to weaken it, but to destroy it. Get rid of the whole capitalist system. That can only be achieved by social revolution, not multipolarity or inter-imperialist rivalries, geopolitical machinations of capitalist powers.
>countries building communismNo one is building communism.
>breaking free from the USAWhat happens on the geopolitical front within the imperialist system is secondary to class struggle within each nation.
>Meanwhile you support these genocidal sanctions because America told you China bad because they didn't follow the book exactly as you like.??? The support or non support of sanctions passed by unaccountable politicians within a bourgeois "democracy" means nothing. I don't support the sanctions, but support means nothing because the people in power are going to push those sanctions regardless. Multipolarity in this instance or the idea that the US will be weakened enough to not do such things is the same vein of liberal accountability politics we see all the time in the west. Its just rebranded reformism. The only way to stop not just those sanctions but the disenfranchisement of oppressed nations is to combat the imperialist system itself, to confront global capitalism itself. Waiting for the US to just stop doing imperialism because other imperialist powers are now contending for more power is just that, pointless waiting for bourgeois powers to hold themselves accountable.
>China is the lifeline of Cuba. China is the lifeline of North Korea. China is the lifeline of Venezuela.<lifelinelmao
>But you don't care about this because it goes against US foreign policy, which is ultimately your agenda.<being against global capitalism is pro-us agendanah
>Multipolar bad because countries don't fit you utopian standardsMultipolarity is beyond the concept of "good" or "bad". Similarly supporting or not supporting it is just as silly. Its just the conditions of the world currently.
>This leaves America as the elite and they will continue sanctioning and bombing countriesThey will do that regardless because of capitalist imperialism, weakened or not.
>somehow China giving medicine to blockaded countries is evil imperialism as bad as what America is doing.Imperialism in the Marxist sense is far more than just invasion and conquest. And in regards to aid. Countries give each other aid all the time, the US even does it. Does that make the US any less imperialist? Less capitalist? No.
>>1883488Okay dude just drop 100 million nukes all across the capitalism in one go.
also
>What happens on the geopolitical front within the imperialist system is secondary to class struggle within each nation.
lmao
>>1883492The truth hurts zigger
>>1883488>Do not underestimate the stupidity youre the only idiot saying it in a vain attempt to smear
>The point should not be to weaken it, but to destroy it. Get rid of the whole capitalist systemand multipolarity is a necessary step for this
>No one is building communism.agree to disagree
>What happens on the geopolitical front within the imperialist system is secondary to class struggle within each nation.<retard thinking being a neo colony is not the primary contradiction in those countrieswhy do you think the sahel is kicking out the french and not having communist revolutions.
>Multipolarity in this instance or the idea that the US will be weakened enough to not do such things are you stupid or dishonest ? the point is not they dont do it, but the presence of meaningful alternatives is enough to remove its teeths
>denying china presence is crucial for the countries sanctioned by the empirewhy even bother arguing with such stupid morons
>being against global capitalism <ultra positions who only serve to attack progressive developments from the left is pro USyes, as proved by the love of glowies for the ultra left
>Its just the conditions of the world currentlyno. It is rising, we're still far from being there, the empire is still hegemonic despite the cracks.
And it is not the kind of things that happens without an actual political will and power behind it, as seen with the slow progress of dedollarization
>They will do that regardless <possible actions is not dependent on your actual powerim baffled by the amount of stupid shit you manage to post seriously
>Imperialism in the Marxist sense is far more than just invasion and conquestindeed. Its the finance capitalists sharing the world. Guess who have the overwhelming amount of finance capital ? As Prashad say, using lenin analysis to deny the fact there is now a single empire is completely missing the point and forgetting to link the theory to the historical context.
>>1884272Yep. Spoiling the prize has been the US response to the BRI since the day it started. I used to have semi-insider receipts but they disappear like so many things on the Internet.
I love capitalism with socialist characteristics <3
>>1884272Someone tweet this at Dr. Ben Norton.
>>1884272not to defend this uyghur but it seems as though he is describing a philosophy that he doesn't subscribe to (especially with the guy asking him why it is wrong after)
>>1883786You are a liberal.
>>1884272>most blatant showing that the US ruling class literally sees China as a capitalist competitor rather than a threat to the capitalist system itself>They finally just came out and said it. Damn.Said what? This is the same fearmongering and "diplomacy" that has been going on for decades.
>>1884376>You are a liberal.Honestly you are just admitting defeat at this argument, and i don't even know the context or what were you guys discussing.
>>1884378Don't even bother interacting with anarchists. There's a reason why lolberts spawned from them.
>>1884378>Honestly you are just admitting defeat at this argumentI've stated my points many times before, there is literally no need for this ceaseless back and forth.
>>1884381>Don't even bother interacting with anarchists.I agree, avoid arguing with liberals as well.
>>1884386>>1884381>Don't even bother interacting with anarchists.>I agree, avoid arguing with liberals as well.Now that is just childish behavior.
>>1884738What does that even mean, the soviets were pretty okay helping the nazis take down Poland while sending tons of resources to them for two years and telling communists in countries resisting nazi invasion to not fight them all in the name of realpolitik.
Truth is the soviets the west and the nazis were all capitalists fighting each others doing the hecking multipolarity while the working class got fucked bad everywhere
>>1884738How much did the NGO pay you for all that drawfag gear?
Mods please can you rename this thread to CAMPISM?
>>1884356Yeah I don't get the impression he's endorsing that view. If you look up some interviews he's given, he's not out waving a PRC flag and praising Xi Jinping but he is a Kissinger guy and pretty critical of the U.S. policy toward China as being too aggressive, preachy, and militarized.
>We use too much normative language about who is good and who is bad. We have to be very careful about this normative language, especially in the international sphere. I think we use it too much domestically as well because it’s easily hijacked by demagogues and absolutists. It tends to blind us to the kind of self-awareness that we should have to the plank in our own eye when we’re lecturing to China. And there are lots of planks in our eyes. It tends to blind us to cultural complexity, to the fact that China, again, has its own virtue narrative, to the fact that it’s home of one of the world’s greatest and most ancient ethical traditions.
>It’s not a religious tradition. China is alone among the ancient great civilizations in that it never had a native doctrine of personal salvation. China never had it, the idea that our job on this earth is to live in such a way that we achieve some kind of transcendence. This idea came into China only with Buddhism about 200 AD. China never natively had the idea of a personal creator God, some all-powerful being that wills us into existence. That was foreign to China. It’s very, this worldly, always has been. It begins with the facts of the everyday, but it does have an ethical tradition that it’s articulated upon that. There’s no notion of original sin in China. This was a real stumbling block for the missionaries. Because the gospel doesn’t make sense without the prior aspects of the Mosaic tradition. You have a fall.
>The notion of original sin for the gospel to make sense, when a lot of the early missionaries went to China and said, “You’re forgiven for your sins,” the answer’s, “You’re a rather grim character. What are these sins you speak of? What are you talking about?” Chinese education begins with 人之初芯本善 [Rén zhī chū xìn běn shàn], “Mankind from his inception is, by nature, basically good.” Confucius and Mencius teach that education, which is primarily moral education, is needed to get people to admire and pursue the good. But it experiences itself as an entirely complete sufficient ethical tradition. We need to understand that if we’re going to have an effective China policy. And then there’s the problem Bill and I were talking about beforehand, the problem of consistency. When George Kennan wrote about morality and foreign policy, he said, “If there is such a thing as morality in foreign policy, ‘if,’ then one of its hallmarks must be consistency.” We get somewhere between a D minus and an F on consistency.
>We have to be careful of this very strong normative language. Preaching internationally rarely works. America, with all of its power, adopts the position that we are the good, you are the unenlightened, and therefore you need to listen. Preaching doesn’t work. Even Desmond Tutu of South Africa criticized it. His great line, when the missionaries first came to South Africa, they had the Bibles and we had the land. They said, “Let us pray,” and we closed our eyes. And when we opened our eyes, we had the Bibles and they had the land. This has been the experience of quite a bit of the rest of the world, and we have to be cognizant of that. Lastly, this normative language, ‘bad China,’ is extremely dangerous for our Chinese American and Asian American brothers and sisters.
>It has been a spur to an increase in anti-Chinese and anti-Asian American racial violence over the past several years, and it’s likely to remain so. So, our diplomacy, realizing this during the Cold War, that we need to be strong about what we stand up for, needs to be presented as an invitation to other nations to work together to more fully realize our common human potential. We need to be talking about human problems, not just American virtues. Preaching about American virtues immediately invites an examination of American vices, American failings. How could it possibly be otherwise? That’s a long list, and it tends to be counterproductive. So, don’t over-moralize. Two, don’t over militarize. It’s a Cold War with China. We’ve done AUKUS, we’ve strengthened the Quad, we’ve got the biggest defense budget ever, and now we’ve also convinced NATO that it has a China aspect to its mission.
>What does it say about us that the military aspect of this competition is the easiest for us to do, despite the fact that it’s the most expensive and the most escalatory? “Oh, no, no, no, we couldn’t possibly do a free trade agreement. We couldn’t do CPTPP, that’s beyond our means. But we can fund a new generation of bombers,” right? “We couldn’t possibly fund more diplomats at the State Department. That doesn’t make sense. But we can expand the military budget.” I think that as Christians in the policymaking community, we’ve got a special obligation to ask these questions. I’m not saying that AUKUS or the Quad or any of these are wrong in themselves, it’s a question of balance and proportionality. They’re not matched by efforts on the economic side, on the provision of public goods, and on the diplomacy side.
>The military-industrial complex is alive and well. Remember Dwight Eisenhower, his Cross of Iron speech, Eisenhower himself said that every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. We’re heading for a resurrection of mutually assured destruction, which some of us grew up in. I remember first grade duck-and-cover drills, if others of you may, mutual assured destruction is coming. We have to ask, is it moral to build machines designed to destroy humanity and all the world and threaten people with the use of them, never intending to, hoping not to, while not taking care of a lot of the problems we face domestically and internationally? Who is going to ask that question?https://thechinaproject.com/2023/10/12/the-morality-of-u-s-china-policy/
lol, there's nothing socialist about defending capitalists over others.
>>1884873>It tends to blind us to the kind of self-awareness that we should have to the plank in our own eye when we’re lecturing to ChinaHe's so close…
>>1884272Socialism is when GDP goes up
so, is there anything actionable to actually DO once you're a "multipolarist"?
to me it seems like nothing but a posture one adopts in internet arguments.
it's literally just an ideology
>>1885273Ideologues tell me ideology is mandatory. Should I believe them?
>>1885273just start believing in stuff. If you believe hard enough, it will materialize, by the power of the collective consciuness, anything is possible. Make materialism from ideological creation and marxist humanism. This is the path for industrialization maximization
>>1885273What multipolarists do is strategize ways to weaken and erode western imperialism without having to lift a finger in real life. For a long time, the global south has felt very little motivation to actually take action and exploit the imperialists' weaknesses so openly before, but now the paper tiger of western strength is being exposed and people are finding it lacking in substance compared to the strong warhawk image theyre always trying to maintain. In ideological terms, the narrative is bending over backwards trying to compensate for the whirlwind of backlash it's facing in global diplomatic sentiment. Even the idea that BRICS could do anything as a group seemed ridiculous 5 years ago but now we're seeing that the world realizes that they no longer need to live the way we've been living since the soviet collapse. That means big changes are coming, not all for the better, since the rabid dog America will probably bite and scratch before the world restrains it and waits till it digs itself a grave clawing at the earth beneath its feet having nothing else to attack. Somebody might get hurt, and we can only minimize the inevitable damage. Multipolarity is the Non-Aligned Movement of the past meeting with industrialist policy to form a Trotskyist World Revolution against domination of the world by Bretton Woods financial institutions via the ideological vessel of alter-globalization. Countries want to develop economically without having nukes pointed at them to sell oil at a discount to the United $nakes of Amerikkka. Anybody who doesnt play along is on the wrong side of history.
>>1885296>What multipolarists do is strategize ways to weaken and erode western imperialism without having to lift a finger in real life.I think a lot of them are from the middle class and don't want to risk anything.
>>1885353One thing poor people can always afford is their thoughts and prayers. The middle class on the other hand is unique for being able to afford lifestylism.
>>1884386>I've stated my points many times before, there is literally no need for this ceaseless back and forth. you are a retarded ultra whose "points" have been refuted every time, but as long as you post your stupid shit you need to be called out again
the real funny part is accusing your opposition of liberalism while championing the left liberal worldview.
>>1885273>is there anything actionable to actually DO support dialogue, cooperation and trade with BRICS, acknowledge their growing importance and support their institutions, shit on nato, support dedollarization, call out new cold war propaganda.
All shit you should be doing already, true. But even within electoralists frameworks, pushing the "what do we gain from being part of the western imperialism" angle can have success especially in europe. Why do we slap taxes on chinese EV but not on US ones, how does that makes sense ? Why should we go to the G7 the west empire club rather than focus on institutions more inclusive of the emergent powers ? Why not cooperate with the chinese in africa rather than act as if they're here to steal our neo colonies and sanction the countries kicking us out ?
the ultra would tell you working for all this is bad and campist because it doesnt imply immediate communism, and worst you will cooperate with the bad capitalists (with a focus on russia and china who are super bad, the new imperialists they say), as if it was identical to working with the US empire.
>it's literally just an ideologyyes, the filter through which you understand the world is called an ideology. And guess what it affects the actions which you then decides to make.
>>1885281while on the contrary, saying "multipolarism is inevitable" while shitting on everyone actually working for it, or even simply defending the need to be working for it, is pure materialism lmao
>>1885678>the worldMonotheism is the problem, isn't it?
>>1885683Understanding that imperialism is the stage of capitalism where advanced bourgeois dictatorships are locked down in geopolitical competition is materialism, cheering for capitalists is kautkyism.
>>1885678I always thought it was goofy that europe never tried to decouple from america as an imperialist bloc. Nowadays i know that europe's governments were built with loyalty to the usa in mind after WWII through the marshall plan, but my former nationalist sympathies always made me wonder why they didnt "support european industry" by working with whoever they wanted to work with, rather than being loyal atlanticist dogs. Now that the rest of the world is leaving the west behind, we can only make fun of europeans for failing to adapt to modern times and integrate into eurasia with little difficulty or economic instability in the meantime. Actually with AFD threatening rapproachment with eurasia im not even sure the EU wont just split up into a poorer "iron curtain" atlanticist neoliberal ingsoc bastion and a central/eastern european eurasian sphere of influence which is more well off due to better trade. Hell, maybe the west wont even maintain control over the west in the future, and nothing, not even former delineations of control, will seem sacred to us at all.
>>1885678>accusing your opposition of liberalism while championing the left liberal worldview<literally the next sentence>cooperation and trade with BRICSYou unironically are a liberal. BRICS is just another capitalist bloc, this isn't me throwing shade, its just a fact. You have adopted a left liberal
eastern worldview. This is campism and frankly neo orientalism. All the things you just put forth, liberals do these things too. You are literally asking for a G7 but eastern. You a for capitalist development, but eastern. Voting for capitalist politicians who are, pro-eastern. Cooperation on who gets to further exploit Africa but instead of the US its China or Russia. This is liberalism. This doesn't stop the US from exploiting, just more opportunities for other capitalist nations to exploit. None of what you said has anything to do with socialism. Actually organizing the revolutionary proletariat, reconstructing communist parties, forming a correct line against global imperialism that doesn't involve bending over backwards for foreign capitalists or emergent compradors. Being against NATO is fine, but this does not make you unique.
>all this is bad and campist because it doesnt imply immediate communismAll this is stupid and campist because it is pro-capitalism masquerading as "left" anti-imperialism. When you are arguing in support of a bloc welcomed a fucking gulf monarchy into its fold, forget about socialism, you are actively fostering reaction just not "western" reaction.
>>1885731You're the Campist. As you said, BRICS is a third world G7, but bigger than the G7 in size, and with 40% of the world's economy participating, and with over 50% of the world's population living in BRICS countries. You say BRICS is nothing but a capitalist trading bloc. But why dont third world countries deserve the right to trade on equal and fair terms compared to western monopolists? What's wrong with a little economic competition bloodgasm?
>>1884738Maga communism is going to save us by letting Trump sanction even more developing countries while reducing taxes on the bourgeoisie. Just wait and see.
>>1885733Lmao, "economic competition". Libshit
>>1885733>You're the Campist.???
>You say BRICS is nothing but a capitalist trading bloc.It is. It literally is. Are you saying they do not trade or are literally connected by their economic attachment to China?
>But why dont third world countries deserve the right to trade on equal and fair terms<implying trade under advanced capitalism is or can be in any remote way equalliberal idealism
>What's wrong with a little economic competition bloodgasm?Everything? I mean you are asking if a little capitalism is wrong. Yes it is. We already have capitalism, it fucking sucks. Why do
you want more of it?
>>1885740Unlike you, i happen to believe in free trade and the fair economic competition of communist and industrialist economies against neoliberal ones. I am also a left agorist.
>>1885740Nta
Economic competition of one country to another country. The USSR participated in international commerce and competed for markets, as said in
<But why dont third world countries deserve the right to trade on equal and fair terms compared to western monopolists.The difference is that the west relies on the use of force and intimidation to keep its partnes obedient, but BRICS treat nations with mutual respect and cooperation.
>>1885743Bro just say you are a socdem
"economic competition" in the international level is not preferable, on the contrary. But it is inescapable. BRICS countries cannot impose full economic blockade, the ones that can do it are the West and its allies, as demonstrated in the economic embargos for Russia, China, Cuba, Palestine, North korea, venezuela, and many more countries that are targets of the west war crime machine.
>>1885745but social democrats don't believe in collectivizing all industry, abolishing fiat currency and promoting democratized workplaces in all workplaces like i do.
>>1885743>i happen to believe in free trade No such thing exists.
>fair economic competition of communist and industrialist economies against neoliberal onesAre you saying industrialists and neoliberals are not just two sides of the same capitalist coin? If so, you are fucking stupid.
>I am also a left agorist.You are fucking stupid.
>>1885748>>1885749i should also say that i believe in a democratic form of stratocracy through means of conscription, collectivizing national security in a way that abolishes both policing and the military industrial complex. i believe peaceful, non-violent economic warfare will purge the impurities of our status quo and create a brighter future for everybody, assuming the economic warfare doesn't devolve into nuclear warfare. we just need to ensure that strategy accomodates for economic warfare.
>>1885749""Industrialists"" is not a real ideology, and so compare them to communists and neoliberals is silly.
An industrialist is just another name for bourgeoisie, owners of the means of production. Neoliberals are politicians that serve the class interests of the bourgeoisie and aim to change the state to better suit their own interests. In this sense, they are the two faces of the same coin. Yet their interests not always correlate or are compatible, for they are cannibals of one another. At least industrialists invest, by definition, in industry, the means of production. Neoliberals are focused much more in their own acumulation of capital, keep the state aparatus for themselves, use the system to maintain themselves on top, and sell their national resources and commodities for cheap prices in exchange for foreign protection. One palpable example of this is Mileis Argentina today.
>>1885754What's good for Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Nicaragua, Algeria, Belarus, Palestine, the PRC and Bolivia is good for global Socialism and i fully believe this.
>>1885756Your pic does not contradict anything said. Show something material instead of your Reddit memes.
>>1885760Don't scale this comversation, keep it civil.
>>1885764Free trade doesnt exist and is not good
>>1885753Just a abandon this point, they will not leave you alone until you abandon the free trade instance
>>18857661)russia imperialist meme, go to/ukraine/ if you want to talk about it
2) coincidentally, Africa is finally having a period of fast industrialization and economic growth, thanks tô BRICS and specially China support for massive infraestructure projects, hospitals, universities, schools, in Africa. But that is bad somehow.
3) same thing
4) same thing
5) same thing. Mining and extraction are necessary for our current economy. China is the country that most close coal and oil usage industries, and is the country that produces an insane ammount of clean renewable energy.
6)" Wagner group in Africa"
7) cant believe venezuela is doing oil extractions in their own territory.
>>1885780Bro is literally doing the meme 8 posts above, lmao
>>1885782What is the
>meme 8 posts above
>>1885785So should Africa stay poor forever so it isn't tainted by the evil of capitalism?
Só basically, china will force africans to have high education, better living conditions, literacy, increase the life expectancy, make Africa independent of West exports, make african produce their own computers, and they will like it. No matter how many debt pardons China needs to no, africa will become better, more developed, and more happy.
>>1885787I already made my point, your reddit meme does not disproves anything that was already said.
>>1885863Source? In what, a timeframe of 50 years like China or 500+ years of literal genocide and slavery?
>>1885874Proportion and scale. A leaf is not the same as a forest. A stone is not the same as a planet. Building some trains in some country is not the same as, like mentioned befote, having more than 10 000 chinese business investing in Africa
>>1886374
go back to reddit
>>1885884It's really like trying to teach philosophy to children. Hate children, imagine how much I hate overgrown children
Those "muth both sides suck" bots would be indifferent to Hitlers conquest, because they would say the British empire was imperialist as well, and that Lenin hated the capitalist powers like France and Britain. They would be upset communists were "collaborating with industrialist capitalists", saying they betrayed their ideals or whatever.
>>1886382Children can learn philosophy pretty well if you strip out all the aristocratic social theory it's intended to transmit. They'll quickly find it useful in arguing against their parents!
>>1886387>believing we should care about and mimic the emotions of the ruling classAbsolutely retarded.
>>1886388Point is, it's annoying beyond what is tolerable and if me and a both-sideist retard end up in the same room, you are going out the window
>>1886393Yeah, nah, anyone who thinks
Capital is an instruction manual will not live to see the end of the revolution because they will have given their lives in the vain attempt to stop it.
>>1886399If you're not here to cut up rightoids for meat, you're the meat.
> You are the rightoid liberal!!?!
> No you are you fascist class collaborationist??!!!!!?!
> China is Imperialist in África you labor aristocrat!!?!
If no one has nothing more to add to the discussion table, you may have the right to remain silent. No point in repeating the same discussion points. Those childish insults are a waste of time that are polluting the thread quality. No point in discussing with keyboard larper warriors online.
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